rooaroundtheworld

So my brother and I are thinking of backpacking across Central Europe this summer (Aug-September) - we're both pretty fit, love nature and old cities in equal measure, and want to go as shoestring as possible. Wanted a few thoughts on the itinerary we have thought of: number of days per city/town, whether we should add/subtract any destinations, and whether we're making the most of our time. Since my tickets are already booked, the trip will have to start and end in Frankfurt:

Aachen (where my brother studies) - 3 days
Brussels - 2 days
Bruges - 2 days
Delft - 1 day
Amsterdam - 2 days
Berlin - 2 days
Prague - 3 days
Salzburg - 2 days
Vienna - 3 days
Budapest - 2 days
Zagreb - 1 day (in transit)
Plitvice - 1 day
Dubrovnik - 3 days
Fly to Frankfurt

PLUS about 3-4 rest days (wherever we need to take them)

This is really open-ended: but any initial thoughts on this? What can we skip? Where are we budgeting too little time (everywhere, I know, but if you really had to pick)? If we want to budget a little more time in Croatia and Austria, should we skip Belgium/Netherlands altogether? Do advise - we are obvious novices

FuryFluffy

IMO Amsterdam - 2 days and Berlin - 2 days are too few, the other cities are okay. Both Amsterdam and Berlin are beautiful, culture rich cities that deserve 3 days to explore. You may cut time from Bruges: 1 day there is enough. Or perhaps cut out Budapest - it's a fine city but it's out of the way from Vienna to Zagreb, and you've already got plenty of cities in your trip.

Dogeared

For me, your plan is a nightmare. First, you need to learn how to count (no insult intended).

If you say you will spend 2 days in Brussels and 2 days in Bruges for a start, tell me which days you will spend in each. Let's assume you leave Aachen on a Monday morning.

Monday enroute to Brussels. Only takes 2 hours right. Wrong. Did you leave at 7am? Or did you have breakfast, pack up, hit the road, catch a 10am train? Arrive at noon, find your place to stay, check-in, dump your stuff in the room, head out for lunch. OK, you've got a HALF day you will then spend IN Brussels.

Tuesday, all day in Brussels? OK, that's now 1.5 days in Brussels.

Wednesday, leave for Bruges. Another half day in Bruges I guess and Thursday all day in Bruges or are you planning to take a late train on Thursday from Bruges to Deft, in which case you won't even really have 1.5 days in Bruges.

How about the day in Delft? Will it really be a full day having arrived the evening before and planning to leave the day after?

You cannot count days as if travel time does not exist.

I always figure that if a place is not worth spending 3 full days in, it is not worth losing all or even half of a day to include it. So I use the 4/3 formula as a rule of thumb. Plan to spend 3 full days in each place and to do that you must spend 4 nights in that place. So if you have 30 days/nights, then don't try to visit more than 7-8 places.

Also consider it from a percentage point of view. Every time you move you lose a half day or more. If you move 12 times as your list shows, that is 6-12 days of your total time LOST to moving. That is 20-40% of your total time LOST.

The less you move the more time you actually have to see and do things in places. People often say they want to get as much as possible out of their trip. But they confuse quantity with quality. You actually get the most out of your time if you never move at all. You spend all your time in a place doing things. Most people however do want to visit more than one place and so you have to look for a balance between time spent in places and time lost moving between places. But do you really want to lose up to 40% of your time moving?

thursdaysd

How long do you have in total? Dogeared is right that you need to allow for transit time. In general two nights in a place buys you one full day.

If you want more time in Austria and Croatia then yes, cut Belgium and the Netherlands, especially if you "love nature". When are you going to hike? Visit smaller places?

I would want more time in Berlin and Budapest. I would absolutely not cut Plitvice and I would give it two nights. Do not schedule Dubrovnik without doing a search on "dubrovnik port" and checking the cruise ship arrivals.

BigRuss

Count nights, not days.

Shoestring budgeting is easier if you go to fewer places.

WoinParis

Aachen (where my brother studies) - 3 days
ok so let us imagine you recover from jetlag.
Brussels - 2 days
including travel ? Aachen Bruxelles is short - count 3 hours door to door. so ok, enough time for Brussels.
Bruges - 2 days
ok - 1 hour travel time from Bxl.
Delft - 1 day
Half a day travel -> half a day in Delft. Always too much in Holland anyway.
Amsterdam - 2 days
ok 2 hours from Delft ? makes nearly 2 days to Amst. Ok
Berlin - 2 days
NO. You lose half a day in travel time. And Berlin deserves 5 days.
Prague - 3 days
ok - half a day lost in travel (say 4 hours) - so enough for Prague.
Salzburg - 2 days
so 1,5 days - enough for those Austrians
Vienna - 3 days
More than adequate.
Budapest - 2 days
1,5 days on the ground, way too few.
Zagreb - 1 day (in transit)
why bother at all ?
Plitvice - 1 day

Dubrovnik - 3 days
Ok.
Fly to Frankfurt

Not so bad - I hope you are indeed young and fit.

PalenQ

As others have shown - travel between places takes much of a day- plan fewer stops and use bases - do day trips from a base. Like to Delft from Amsterdam and Brussels from Bruges or v.v. Traveling on trains sans luggage is great!

anyway if you hit half of those places strongly look at some kind of railpass - like a Global Eurail Flexipass- which lets you hop any train anytime just about in all those countries=just show up at station. If under 26 there is a cheaper Youthpass- for lots on trains and rail itineraries check www.budgeteuropetravel.com; www.ricksteves.com and www.seat61.com.

Overnight trains can be used to cover large distances at night and save on the cost of a hostel or hotel too.

Aramis

Somebody should let the dog out.

The insult was, indeed, intended.

bilboburgler

I'd do in a day, but leave late in the day as the place is pretty in the evening. 2 days is too much. Base somewhere else.

Unless you really have a thing about a dead musician I'd drop Salzburg, he is dead and while the music lingers on, you can buy CDs or spotify. Really the place is not worth any time.

So that has given you at least 4 days more, give at least 1 to Berlin, Budapest.

Now you have to consider Dubrovnik, you might prefer Split and Trogir, I did, and at the hight of the summer Dubrovnik is just going to be wall to wall fat waddling boat-people.

That is what I would do and I've been to everywhere on your list, most more than twice.

bilboburgler

Bruges; I'd do in a day, but leave late in the day as the place is pretty in the evening. 2 days is too much. Base somewhere else.

PalenQ

. Really the place is not worth any time.>

Salzburg? Regardless of dead musicians one of the physically most beautiful cities in Europe - a Baroque fantasy throughout. The city itself is the draw - also a very neat castle hovering over town.

Well this is all subjective and this is my take.

Tomy9220

While you are in Croatia you can take Game of Thrones tour in Dubrovnik

dwdvagamundo

Good advice above on trip planning: plan by the nite, not by the day.

Given your interests, I'd drop the Netherlands and Belgium entirely.

Instead, I'd go from Aachen down to Munich, then to Innsbruck, Austria--beautiful mountain scenery--then to Salzburg, and so forth on your original itinerary, except fit Berlin in (probably) after Prague. From Salzburg, I'd spend a few rest days in the Salzkammergut--http://www.austria.info/au/activities/lakes-nature/salzkammergut-lake-district

PalenQ

rooaroundtheworld - what do you think?

rooaroundtheworld

Hi all!

Whew. Got myself a good lesson on trip planning there! Very valuable - thanks a lot

There are a lot of changes that have happened since I posted, so the trip has now been curtailed by a week, and is happening from the 20th of September to the 10th of October. So after much consideration (and your inputs!), we are dropping the Neatherlands and Belgium (for another trip), and the revised itinerary looks like this:

Prague - 3n/3d
Vienna - 2n/3d
(Maybe Hallstatt day trip?)
Zagreb - 1d - transiting
Plitvice Lakes + other hiking in the area - 2n/3d
Split - 3n/4d (with day trips to Bol and Brac)
Dubrovnik - 2n/3d
Travel to Budapest - 1 day - stay for two nights and then fly back home.

There are a coupla questions:

a) Since we will be transiting through Slovenia in a sense (when going from Vienna to Zagreb), is it worth dropping one of the Croatia destinations for Ljubljana or Lake Bled?

b) Since we are not driving, and are still on a shoestring budget, what accommodation near Plitvice would you suggest? There is a Falling Lakes hostel, but it seems to be in Korenica nearly 20kms away. Would it still be possible to use public transport to beat the crowds? The more I look at this, the more it feels like we will have to splurge this one night.

Mimar

Right now what you've got is

Sept 20: Arrive in Prague, partial day
Sep. 21: Prague
Sep. 22: Prague
Sep. 23: Transfer to Vienna (half day in Prague or half day in Vienna, depending on when you travel)
Sep. 24: Vienna
Sep. 25: Vienna
Sep. 26: Travel to Zagreb and on to Plitvice
Sep. 27: Plitvice
Sep. 28: Half day in Plitvice or Split, depending on when you travel.
Sep. 29: Split
Sep. 30: Split
Oct. 1: Split. Travel to Dubrovnik
Oct. 2: Dubrovnik
Oct. 3: Travel to Budapest
Oct. 4: Budapest
Oct. 5-10: ???
Oct: 10: Fly home

Obviously you need to rework this itinerary to make it what you want.

Keep in mind you'll have to get acquainted with each new destination: the layout, how to get around, public transportation? Also the opening days and hours of local sights. And, if you don't leave until later in the day, you'll either have to lug your bags/backpacks around with you or maybe leave them in storage at your hotel or at a luggage storage near the bus or train station. (There's one such at the Split train station near the docks.)

For my taste and from my experience you have too many stops. From your spares I'd add another night each to Plitvice and Dubrovnik. I assume you're taking the bus from Zagreb to Plitvice and from Plitvice to Split. You'll need to find to find lodging near the bus stop.

kja

Much improved! I’ll admit that it’s still a bit too fast paced for my preferences, but it depends on what you want to see and do. FWIW, I wanted more time in Prague, Vienna, Split, and Budapest, and I think Zagreb seriously underrated. JMO.

I recommend that you spend some more time with a calendar, and as suggested by Mimar, be sure you plan for the time involved in any change of location: Each time you propose to change locations, pencil in your transportation, add some time on either side (for getting to/from your lodging, checking in/out, packing/unpacking, getting oriented, getting lost, getting local currency, etc.).

a) If you are going all the way to Croatia, then it might make sense to add charming Ljubljana and Lake Bled – but IMO, only if you can give them a few days and drop something else.

b) I think you may be right about the Plitvice Lakes. Unfortunately, while it is easy to get to the park by public transportation, there have been reports that it can be very difficult to get a bus to stop there when you are ready to leave. (If they are full and aren’t leaving anyone off, they can’t pick you up.) I don’t know how common that problem is, but it does suggest that a bit of flexibility might be in order. And without a car, it would be difficult to stay anywhere but the places right at the park’s edge.

bilboburgler

Bled is something special, if you catch the commoners bus from the station as you drive over the rise into town, even the locals stop talking as they catch sight of it for the first time that hour.

Dogeared

Still can't count. LOL

You cannot physically spend 3n/3d in a place unless have some way of warping time. If you spend 3 nights, you can only spend 2 full days and a part day IN that place.

As for 2n/3d, that's even worse. If you only spend 2 nights, you cannot spend more than 1 full day and a part day in that place.

You are counting both days and nights as if you can make them exist twice!

Mimar, you have actually added a night to his time in Prague. He wrote 2n/3d.

Why is it so hard for people to count days and nights? LOL

PalenQ

Look into a Eurail Select Saverpass - you buy it by countries and some you have are very cheap and hop on virtually any train anytime but not valid on buses or boats (except discounts on some Italy-Croatia or Greece). Not saying it is good deal just to check it out.