No.

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threadselect.jsp?fid=2&tid=35014114

No, you should wear a red, white and blue English flag instead. The Irish are not Philadelphia Flyer fans.

I once wore an orange raincoat to a large U2 concert in Dublin the same day Ireland was playing the Netherlands in soccer...NEVER again!

It's well known that the Irish continually burn their own flag because it has orange in it

the irish only wear green (and with little pointy shoes). you should do the same or you will be labelled a tourist.

Don't forget the green plush hats, while you're at it.

I'm going out on a limb here - be nice...

Isn't there something related to William the Orange?

possibly that's what she is referring to?

here in NYC wearing certain colors can be seen as identifying with a certain type of group...maybe that's what she is concerned with?

I'm sure that is indeed the origin of this idea, but Ireland has changed a bit over the years.

Patrick, you forgot to mention the shelailegh

Always nice to see a sincere question responded to with sarcasm and disdain. How clever some of you think you are.

My impression, lilla, is that there are certain national holidays and special occasions (such as amyb's soccer game) for which orange might be a mistake. Otherwise, don't worry about it.

Amn't I an eejit?

Lilla, you might be more up to the minute for your trip if you get yourself ready to discuss Dustin the Turkey:

http://www.eurovision.tv/event/artistdetail?song=24489&event=1468

with a side reference or two to My Lovely Horse:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lovely_Horse

Not sarcasm Cimbrone. Two seconds thought would be enough to understand what a truly insulting question it is.

well, if you are 'in the know', you might find it an insulting question, but I have no idea what people think of wearing orange in Ireland, and would never assume a simple (innocent) question could be labeled "insulting". It's the same as asking if it's inappropriate to wear purple in Florida.

BTW, I *did* learn that one SHOULD wear orange on Koninginnedag in the Netherlands.

Cimbrone wrote: "My impression, lilla, is that there are certain national holidays and special occasions (such as amyb's soccer game) for which orange might be a mistake."

Wrong. It's never a political or social problem. Whether it is a fashion problem is another question. We don't care what colour you wear; we don't notice.

Alas, Dustin the Turkey is no more.

Brutally assassinated last night, it appears. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7412199.stm

So the Irish have only got their national football team to support. Playing against Russia in Moscow tonight.

flanneruk wrote: "So the Irish have only got their national football team to support."

We also have Munster in the Heineken Cup.

Padraig, I've never been to Ireland, but I've read on other threads that what I wrote is the case, so there's clearly some disagreement on this.

Are you saying that showing up to a St. Patty's day celebration in Dublin wearing all bright orange won't raise a few eyebrows? I have no idea. I'm just asking.

And I've thought for more than just two seconds now, and can't begin to understand why it was "insulting" for lilla to ask this.

Cimbrone wrote: "Are you saying that showing up to a St. Patty's day celebration in Dublin wearing all bright orange won't raise a few eyebrows? I have no idea. I'm just asking."

On grounds of looking ridiculous, perhaps it might. But not on political or social grounds.

Cimbrone wrote "And I've thought for more than just two seconds now, and can't begin to understand why it was "insulting" for lilla to ask this."

I wasn't insulted, but maybe that's just that I have a thick skin.

Some might see in the question an implication that we Irish are petty. If I were petty, then I might feel insulted.

...though try calling it St Patty's Day and you'll be in for an uncomfortable time.

Not petty. Politically fraught, but not petty.

I've known Protestants here in the US who purposely wear orange on St. Patrick's day to be provocative. So it isn't outrageous to think it might be an issue in Ireland.

My seventh grade social studies teacher, Miss Letty, told us all not to wear orange on St. Patrick's day, that it would be taken as a hostile political statement by Irish people. She was the only person of Irish descent in the room, and I believed her. Are you saying that she misled her young students or that times have changed since (gulp) 1963?

Nikki, it would not be noticed in Ireland.

I think things are different in the US among people of Irish descent. I think that the more remote the Irish connection, the greater the difference is.

I have a couple of orange-ish shirts, and my only concern about wearing one is how well it co-ordinates with the rest of my outfit. Herself has blouses that fall somewhere between gold and orange, and follows the same rule. We would think no differently on St. Patrick's Day.

Thanks Padraig.

My memory, however, might explain to some of the posters here (not you) why a person such as the original poster might ask the question with perfectly good intent.

easy...it's a matter of different perspective....

American Irish today - keep in touch with the romantic irish roots.

Ireland Irish today - out with the old, in with the new.

<<< I've known Protestants here in the US who purposely wear orange on St. Patrick's day to be provocative. >>>

Probably upset that a celebration they started was hi-jacked by a bunch of Catholics

walkinaround wrote: "American Irish today - keep in touch with the romantic irish roots.
Ireland Irish today - out with the old, in with the new."

It's far more complicated than that, and it has nothing to do with a sense of romance about being Irish; it's about bitterness.

<<< it's about bitterness. >>>

The 400 years of grudges

sorry, i don't understand...what grudges/bitterness do you think american irish have? i see most/many as having a romantic view of their irish roots...free from grudges and bitterness. i'm not talking about illegal ones living in south boston tenements but those whose families have been there for a long time, reaped the rewards of america and now look back across the atlantic in search of an identity with the old country.

Oh believe me, walkinaround, while Irish-Americans may romanticize their heritage, those wearing orange or taking offense at those who do are doing it out of bitterness, not romance.

P.S. don't forget that Americans were some major financial backers of paramilitary forces on both sides of the Irish conflict.

forget it...i'm not talking about those who wear orange to offend others. i'm just talking about a different perspective on the idea of 'irishness'. if you think that the majority of 'irish americans' are bitter about something to do with their irishness, then i strongly disagree. i'll say it again...i'm not talking about the few radicals...i'm talking about the majority of irish americans whose parents quickly shed any association with 'irishness' when they came to america and whose future generations now look at ireland with a sense of romance and longing. why do you think so many irish americans visit ireland, apply for irish citizenship, wear claddah rings, and otherwise make attempts to connect with their irishness?

i also strongly disagree if you think that funding terrorism against my country is an activity of average irish americans other than a very few radicals. to bring this up as a major facet of irish americanism is perverse.

there are reasons why irish americans are, in some ways, more precious of traditional irishness (or their idea of it) than the irish in ireland.

walkinaround wrote: "there are reasons why irish americans are, in some ways, more precious of traditional irishness (or their idea of it) than the irish in ireland."

That's a load of bollocks. Many of those Irish-Americans have no clue what Ireland is like today, nor a lucid understanding of what Ireland was ever like. Their idea of Irish patriotism is to hate the English, and blame them for the Famine, which was the first great driver of mass emigration of Catholic Irish to North America. While they are busy hating the English (but not the Scots or the Welsh) they lump in about a million Irish people who live in Northern Ireland and who want to maintain the union, and they hate them, too. There's your bitterness.

And I can't stand the idea of somebody whose ancestors departed this island 150 years ago telling me what it means to be Irish.

And I don't know any Irish person who wears a Claddagh ring.

I never suggested anything about the majority of Irish-Americans. You are changing the whole nature of this thread. I completely agree that bitterness and militarism are completely foreign to the vast majority of Irish-Americans and I also completely agree that Irish-Americans romanticize their heritage. But this thread is about the wearing of orange, and my point was simply that THOSE WHO DO and THOSE WHO NOTICE are definitely mindful of past grudges and a history of Catholic vs. Protestant tribalism. Certainly, most are too busy with their green beer and corned beef to notice.

Bollocks and more bollocks.

I get crap from Irish Americans for being English, when my mother's family were Northern Irish PROTESTANT REPUBLICANS.

Apparently because they were protestant, the argument runs that they were/are neither Irish or Republican.

The very fact someone regards wearing orange in the Irish Republic as something to be concerned about (the issue is different in Northern Ireland) means they've been conned by 150 years of American bitterness - we in the English diaspora know a lot better - into equating Irishness with Catholic triumphalism.

Protestants were central to the development of Irish ideas of independence and to the (ill-conceived in my view, but let's ignore that) wars that led to its realisation.

AlanRow's point about the orange in the Irish flag is central to this. Protestantism is a crucial part of Ireland's history: what religion do you think most of the great Irish authors belonged to? Why was The Messaiah first performed in Ireland?.

Now there's a long history of Americans arrogantly telling the Irish what to think: from the moronic American teacher quoted by Nikki in this thread to a confused Detroiter on this board who keeps on thinking he knows better than the people of Ireland whazt their country's called.

And in between: a disconcerting number of idiots lending at least passive support to child-murdering Catholic terrorists (including the scumbag Mayor Giuliani, who called the arch-child murderer Gerry Adams a "harbinger of peace" in 1994, and still hasn't apolgised for or retaracted his persistent eulogies for cold-blooded terrorists)

I'm not sure Padraig, but I think walkingaround may be in viloent agreement with you.

"look at ireland with a sense of romance and longing" "(or their idea of it)" >>

I see that too. The Irish summer festival business is huge in the US. You can go to one every weekend in the summer. "Traditional" Irish pubs, replete with faux dirty yello walls (ahem .. just like many in Ireland) are everywhere. This fascination is pretty new, with most of these popping up in the last 15 years. I belive there are at least 4 Irish festival in the Denver Metro area alone during the summer and fall. I found a list that showed 23 Irish pubs in the same area. That's a lot of tin signs and faux paint. Hell, I even have one in my living room.

The number of Americans who will claim they are "Irish" is very high. That is, in many cases (if nor most), short for "I have Irish heritage". None-the-less, folks seek this very "romantic" imagage of Ireland that is created in their own minds and in the minds of Hollywood and Lucky Charms commercials.

All that said, I don't think I've encountered too many folks (if any) that profess to know "what it means to be Irish" (discounting the "Kiss Me I'm Irish" sweatshirts). I understand your annoyance Padraig, I just don't think that the issue is as common place as you might suspect. At least I hope not.

Bill --- or should that be Liam? ---hehehe

I propose that the prefix "Irish" be specifically banned from being attached to the word "American".

You are one or the other.

(Why is there no such term as English-Americans? I imagine if there were, they would still be being huffy with the "British" over the Acts of Enclosure)

When you fertilize a field, the weeds grow stronger, too.

I am quite comfortable with the descendants of emigrants feeling, and affirming, some degree of connection with Ireland. It is their right, and who am I to gainsay it? Besides, like just about everybody in Ireland, I have cousins who were born in the US in and a number of other countries.

My problem starts when some of them go beyond a sentimental feeling of connection. There are many who do, more noticeably in the US than in, say, Britain or Australia. I tire of hearing about "the English occupation of Northern Ireland", and it saddens me to hear time and again of the eulogisation of the IRA in places like Boston. The IRA is not eulogised by the overwhelming majority of the people of Dublin who, for the most part, understand Ireland better than do Irish-Americans.

Such are the weeds that grow on the green sod of sentimentality about a place and experience that people have not lived.

- You like Guinness and Irish music? Good (I like only one of them).
- You buy into the rubbish about the Blarney stone? More fool you, but no harm done.
- You want to take a position on the contested heritage in Northern Ireland? Stay out of our affairs! I, living in the Republic, feel that my right to take a position is limited; those who live in Northern Ireland have a far greater right.

I certainly did not mean to start anything here. I was just trying to be a sensitive tourist and not do anything that might offend the citizens of a country I will be visiting. I thank all of you who gave me a simple answer without belittling my question.

So, lilla, are you going to pack your orange fleece?

In Kilkenny, wear black with it. The county colours are black and amber (close enough to orange to pass muster). You will be taken for a hurling fan, and asked if you think Henry Shefflin has another great season left in him (he probably has).

I think there must be no such thing as English-Americans since, being the Mother Country, English-American is the "default mode." There is certainly every other kind of American, except, perhaps, Canadian-American.

Cimbrone wrote: "I think there must be no such thing as English-Americans since, being the Mother Country, English-American is the "default mode." "

That is one big claim! Let's deal with the simplest part: there would never be an English-American simply on grounds of established language usage; the expression would be Anglo-American.

On the question of England being the Mother Country -- I just don't know where to start on that. There are so many options that I am transfixed by indecision.

"the expression would be Anglo-American."

And, indeed, we do have the expression "WASP," the second letter of which stands for "Anglo." Not sure, linguistically, what's wrong with "English-American," however.

Incidentally, here in South Florida, we non-Hispanic Caucasians have been fighting a difficult battle to get the media to stop calling us all "Anglos."

"On the question of England being the Mother Country -- I just don't know where to start on that. There are so many options that I am transfixed by indecision."

Oh come on. Take a stab at it. It's a slow night on Fodor's. I remember, after all, dressing up in a Pilgrim's hat with that silly buckle when I was a boy and being told in school that England is "the Mother Country." You mean they lied?

It appears that not even the English are Anglo anything.

It appears that the inhabitants of the British Isles and Ireland are all one and the same genetic mob, having come over from Northern Spain about 20,000 years ago.

Logically, this gives us a god given right to pontificate on the subject of Basque seperatism and the legacy of Franco.

In fact I am planning a trip to Bilbao to reclaim my ancestral homeland.

J_R_Hartley wrote: "...the British Isles and Ireland..."

An interesting new take on political geography.

I was trying to be PC, hoisted on my own petard.

As a fully signed up, card carrying bogtrotter, is it really OK to say that Ireland is part of the British Isles?

I have witnessed huffiness on the subject.

I have witnessed huffiness on the subject.

So have I and very silly it is too, like calling the original inhabitants of the country "celts".
DNA evidence shows that apart from a few Anglo Saxons around the coast, we are all descended from ancient Britons and that goes for the Irish as well as for the rest of us.

Those Irish people (and Irish-Americans) who get annoyed by the term "British Isles" deserve to be vexed. They tend towards the same end of the spectrum as Sinn Fein.

My surname (which I don't use here, of course) means "British", and I have no intention of changing it, nor has any political extremist ever taken exception to it.

I own these islands.

>>>>>
I have witnessed huffiness on the subject.
>>>>>>

yeah some cultures have very thin skins about things like this.

Walkinaround said
"why do you think so many irish americans visit ireland, apply for irish citizenship, wear claddah rings, and otherwise make attempts to connect with their irishness?"

Okay - I'll bite. A few of my relatives have worked in Irish Embassies and for the most part the reason Irish Americans take out Irish citizenship is so that they can work in the EU without the need for a permit. They have no intention of ever visiting the old sod and have no attachment - sentimental or otherwise - to it.

I was in Ireland on the Dutch holiday for the Queen, and I wore orange. It was a bad idea. While some people here might say it's not an issue, why not just play it safe and wear some other color?

happy_train wrote: "I was in Ireland on the Dutch holiday for the Queen, and I wore orange. It was a bad idea."

In what way was it a bad idea? I'm Irish, living in Ireland, and sometimes wear orange; ditto for Herself. It's just not an issue.

There might be a difference if one wore something that was in some way explicitly linked to the House of Orange or to the Orange Order, but otherwise, no.

Traffic cones in Ireland are green, and this gentlemen is clearly a sectarian troublemaker

http://designsbyh.ie/catalog/images/UC803.jpg

My child is in a creche in Dublin and on Konniwhatsit (Dutch queens day!) the creche asked all kids to wear orange. I didn't think twice about it because wearing orange has no connotations for me unless it's the full Orange order regalia, which is a completely different thing (I'm Irish born and bred in my mid 30s). And unlike most of these dressing up things which are a total pain in the ass this one was OK as my kid happened to have plenty of orange clothes at home to wear, as do we.

So I'm very surprised at happy train's experiences - maybe you could tell us the specifics?

thanks

jane

It's not such a strange question to ask. I don't know about Ireland, but I would be careful to wear orange during the European football championships in June if you're not supporting Holland.

And on the subject of insulting people through choice of clothes, I bet many people don't know that you shouldn't wear the brand Lonsdale in the Netherlands.
From Wikipedia;
Lonsdale youth became a widely used synonym for teenagers with extreme right wing tendencies

Regardless of country or territory, who would want to wear a bright orange fleece sweater in the first place (unless participating in the Queen's Day Parade in Holland or any Oranje football match)?

Padraig, why did you take the bait on all of this? Let it go!

travelme asked: "Padraig, why did you take the bait on all of this?"

I am on a one-man mission to dispel ignorance. There are people participating in this discussion who do not know what the situation is, or have misunderstood or been misled.

Well I can understand that, Padraig. I see your point.

So it's OK to wear orange in Ireland.

What aboput a nice sash to set it off?

What about bowler hats?

Is alfresco bass drum practice: Is this frowned on?

Enquiring minds would like to know.

"And I can't stand the idea of somebody whose ancestors departed this island 150 years ago telling me what it means to be Irish.
"

And yet, Padrag, you have no problem bitterly pontificating about America, spilling all of your whiney bile onto these pages as if you really knew anything about the country.

Somewhat hypocritical of you, don't you think?

wolvwerine71 wrote: "And yet, Padrag, you have no problem bitterly pontificating about America..."

That is an unfounded allegation.

It does depend on whether the Dutch football team has just kicked the Irish football team off the ground. If so Orange is a bad idea

bilboburgler wrote: "It does depend on whether the Dutch football team has just kicked the Irish football team off the ground. If so Orange is a bad idea"

Perhaps surprisingly, it probably isn't. Irish football fans do not have a record of disorder and violence. But the Dutch do.

Wolverine - I am interested - you seldom seem to post on Fodor's except as a self appointed guardian of America's dignity.

Do you post under another name on other subjects or do you just lurk looking for posts to get upset about?

Maybe you could back up your allegations of Padraig's pontification with some quotes.

willit wrote: "Maybe you could back up your allegations of Padraig's pontification with some quotes"

That's probably quite easily done by anybody with too much time and not enough wit.

It interests me that many Americans don't realise how close England and Ireland are geographically and culturally.
In my experience, we share the same literature, laugh at the same jokes etc.
Ireland was the only country to vote for the UK in the Eurovision Song Contest I think that poor Dustin was robbed BTW.
We also inter-marry.
I have seven half Irish cousins, a half Irish sister-in-law and an Irish daughter-in-law, and I'm sure that I'm not unique.

Perhaps surprisingly, it probably isn't. Irish football fans do not have a record of disorder and violence. But the Dutch do.>>>>

Only at club level (mainly against spurs it seems). Nationally they are pussycats.

i tend to agree with wolverine. irish-americans have every right to hold points of view about irishness and irish affairs. just as padraig often enjoys his right to comment on american affairs.

and i do strongly agree with padraig that irish americans' ideas of irishness are often symbolic, cliche and very different from attitudes in ireland (both northern and the republic). unfortunately, though, he was so on the defensive and emotional he failed to recognise this....so eager to spew his 'they're not irish, they don't understand!' rubbish.

clearly he feels that you must walk a mile in his shoes before you can even comment....a bit melodramatic to be taking a victim stature when we are talking about being irish today.

There really is no such thing as "Irish-American" or indeed any of the hyphenated americans.

They're all just yanks and should be happy with that.

walkinaround, that's a load of nonsense. It's a cheap trick, used also by wolverine71, to misrepresent somebody's position in order to justify attacking them.

Padraig

Take the advice of the late great George Brown and "treat them with the ignore-ance they deserve".
An Irish mate of mine says that what really gets up his nose is "I'm Irish too".
I must admit that if somebody whose Aunt Gladys's second cousin came from Tunbridge Wells, claimed to be English, it would ascend my nostrils too,

There's sometimes a "zeal of the convert" in some brands of nationalism: people with mixed inheritances can be more obviously nationalistic about one of them than people with no links to any other country.

Josser, in case you worry about my equanimity, rest easy; I'm not upset.

My very first post in this thread was a contribution to dispelling ignorance; I'm still trying to dispel ignorance; it's my life's work.

Ignorance that is cloaked in prejudice or dishonesty can take a little more effort.

I'm very rarely a defender of my fellow Americans, but just as some of you believe that Americans shouldn't presume to tell Irish and other Europeans how to behave, don't you think it's presumptuous to pass judgement on the American practice of hyphenating their nationalities? Perhaps there's something in being American that YOU don't quite get?

It's not about one's aunt in Tunbridge Wells. It's about the food one eats, the holidays one celebrates, the languages one may still speak, and, yes, the relatives in the "old country" we're still in touch with. So please, without the "I'm too clever to respond in a manner devoid of irony and sarcasm to a sincere question" attitude that is typical of so many Irish and English on this board, explain to me why it's soooo terrible to be a hyphenated American.

To me, it is easy.

Were the OP asking about wearing orange on St Patrick's day in Chicago then Irish Americans would have every right to answer the question, and Padraig would be free to comment on how "Irish America" differs from Irish.

That Irish Americans seem able to contradict a resident of Ireland on what is acceptable or not in Ireland does surprise me. Maybe the Irish have degenerated and are not as "Really Irish" as the descendent of those who emigrated in the 1800s.

Have a look at the first two messages.
The OP asked the question and an Irishman answered her.
All the other messages are redundant.

I don't visit the American forum, but I wonder what would happen if an innocent blundering European talked about going to Frisco?
I imagine that they would be told politely that the residents of that fair city, would prefer them not to use that form of the name.
I hope that they would say "Whoops, I'll remember next time!"
I hope that they wouldn't copy and paste articles from American tabloids or other media saying that the form was commonplace and that for their part, they would continue using it.

Is that what happened here? Or were there a bunch of belittling comments from both sides of the pond?

A better analogy would be an American posting it really doesn't matter what you call his city, and then a European saying that he experienced hostility when saying "Frisco" while visiting California. The affrontery!

Besides, I'm not sure what should make it so obvious to anyone what the nationality is of a given poster.

None of this would be confrontational if the Irish here, whose expertise on the matter I certainly defer to, hadn't gotten so snarky so quickly.

Cimbrone wrote: "None of this would be confrontational if the Irish here, whose expertise on the matter I certainly defer to, hadn't gotten so snarky so quickly."

Are you referring to me? I never got snarky. Don't confuse forthright expression with bad temper. I have felt good-humoured throughout this thread, even in the more recent exchanges.

If you want snarky, look at wolverine71's entry into the discussion.

"irish-americans have every right to hold points of view about irishness and irish affairs."

They do as Americans, as anyone is allowed to hold a point of view on anything.

They do NOT, the other hand have the right to pretend that they are Irish, and know more about the subject than Irish people who live in Ireland, or even their near neighbours with 1000 years of history in common.

No Padraig, I wasn't referring to you. I have found this thread to be quite educational. Don't understand why some take exception to everyone, Irish and otherwise, from sharing their experiences. Clearly, some of those experiences carry more weight than others in terms of the OP's question. I thought we were just chatting.

Okay, Cimbrone. But I have not noticed any other Irish person in this thread showing signs of anything that might be taken as snarkiness.

why on earth would anyone have a problem with some americans wanting to refer to themselves in a hyphenated form?

anyway, this argument is ironic. although we don't tend to use hyphens in labelling, the uk is one of the most 'hyphenated' societies in the western world. we tell our immigrants to retain their native identity. british identity is very weak and therefore we end up with hyphenated people where the british part is just about the passport.

america, which asks for integration and adoption of american values, culture, etc, is much less 'hyphenated'. as is france, which also favours full integration.

from my knowledge of american culture, i would say that the hyphenation says more about being american than about being africa-, irish- etc. but this is a detail that my fellow europeans seem to be unable to understand. maybe the americans can better explain the cultural nuance of the hyphenation.

it's clearly 'in the script' for irish to reject their 'cousins' whose ancestors decided to move to america. yawn. perhaps i could understand better with ireland in rough times...bitterness for those who left for a better life. but today ireland is far from hurting and the victim mentality is misplaced. perhaps it's time to change the script and move on.

those who try to make the rules about who are the 'real ____' smell of a perverse nationalism and don't sit very well with me....especially when done with the bitterness and phony historical justifications of padraig's posts.

That was hard work. Are you e e cummings in disguise? Hyphens are fine, capitals are very good.

My great grandfather was American, but the next gererations were born in Canada. Am I an Ameri-Canadian?

One of my great-greats was Prime Minister of England (for a minute or two). Perhaps I'd be better to call myself Anglo-Canadian?

And on my gram's side we go back to County Mayo. So maybe I am also Irish-Canadian?

Might be easier to just be a Canadian with many backgrounds, all of which make me...me.

walkinaround wrote: "it's clearly 'in the script' for irish to reject their 'cousins' whose ancestors decided to move to america. yawn. perhaps i could understand better with ireland in rough times...bitterness for those who left for a better life. but today ireland is far from hurting and the victim mentality is misplaced. perhaps it's time to change the script and move on.
those who try to make the rules about who are the 'real ____' smell of a perverse nationalism and don't sit very well with me....especially when done with the bitterness and phony historical justifications of padraig's posts."

You really are being perverse. You haven't a clue about what you are talking about; you misunderstand what I said; and on such bases you suggest my posts are phony.

There are so many ways that you miss the mark that I cannot deal with them in the customary scope of a post here. Then I consider your tone, and I am reassured: you are not deserving of the effort that would be involved.

I worked with a nice Scottish lady (I'm not sure she had become an American citizen) who told me that she always wore orange on St Paddy's Day. I image that she intended to make a statement by that gesture, however I'm not sure that most folks in the Silicon Valley understood what that statement was. perhaps they just thought she dressed badly. Or that she mistook the day for Halloween.

"I worked with a nice Scottish lady (I'm not sure she had become an American citizen) who told me that she always wore orange on St Paddy's Day."

And it's the English the Irish have an alleged problem with?

J_R_Hartley wrote: "And it's the English the Irish have an alleged problem with?"

There is strong support for the Orange Order in Glasgow. While it's not true of all members of the order, there is a nasty element among them.

One day Padraig will save the world!

Well, I hope he can sing better than fellow countrymen, Bono and Geldof, on similar mission.

Does he know Andrea Coor? Doesn't everybody in Ireland know everybody else?

J_R_Hartley wrote: "Well, I hope he can sing better than fellow countrymen, Bono and Geldof, on similar mission."

You might not like his material, but Bono has a reasonably good voice.

Nobody ever accused me of that. You know those sympathetic encores that are requested at parties as a way of telling you that you weren't all that bad really? I don't get those.

I don't know Andrea Corr, but I know her former music teacher.

I note that you don't leap to the defence of Bob Geldof.

Sorry to Bono, for the next time you bump into him, I reached saturation point on U2 decades ago.

I nearly bought Dolores O'Riordan a pint once...

J_R_Hartley wrote: "I note that you don't leap to the defence of Bob Geldof."

Despite what some participants in this discussion seem to believe, I can recognise a lost cause.

So please, without the "I'm too clever to respond in a manner devoid of irony and sarcasm to a sincere question" attitude that is typical of so many Irish and English on this board, explain to me why it's soooo terrible to be a hyphenated American. >>>>>>

It's not terrible. It is however bloody ridiculous.

I couldn't give a monkey's what people want to call themselves, but they also shouldn't expect me to take them seriously.

Let's look at the plastic paddies as an example.

The greatest period of emigration was from 1845 until the end of the century. So in short there is no one in America who's parents were actually Irish, nor their grand parents and precious few who's great grandparents were.

So I would ask, where is the "Irishness" given the amount of intermarriage between other groups etc.

Also at what point do you stop thinking you are something you clearly aren't - in 50 years, 100?

I can trace my ancestry back to the Conquest but I don't think of myself as "Norman-English". It sounds ridiculous doesn't it?

None of this would matter a heap of figs if the hyphenated yanks just carried on with their two-bob parodies of their original culture (green beer for God's sake).

However as 30+ years of bloodshed in my own country has proved. They don't keep their noses out - and they certainly don't help.

This has become a fascinating discussion. It would never have occurred to me that it would be perceived as a negative thing to maintain ethnic and family traditions, which is what the hyphenated Americans are mostly talking about. Even if the Irish-American culture is not the same as the Irish culture, that does not make it illegitimate.

The many people I know who think of themselves as Greek or Italian or Portuguese or Chinese or Korean or Mexican or Russian or whatever Americans contribute to the wonderful mixture of flavors within American culture. My few visits to London have made me think that the same is true there, but I see that it is not necessarily viewed through the same lens.

Comparing London with America is completely missing the point IMHO.

Britain was pretty much mono -cultural and mono racial until the 50s. (For example we used to think of the Irish as rather exotically foreign).

Even if someone came on the Windrush they would only be in their 70s now - so their grandchildren would have a direct link to "home". In fact, most west indian Brits just think of themselves as English - only the older generation think of themselves as jamaican, barbadian etc, although quite a few would fail the Tebbit test.

And those 70 year old would be the FIRST immigrants, with other races and cultures coming behind.

So when you see a multi coloured, multi cultural london you are really seeing, at most, 50 years or so of immigration, whereas the hyphenated Americans have been there for over a hundred years or more. (If an Irish american is tracing his roots back to the famine, then he is still claiming to be "Irish" after being a yank for 160 years which is simply silly.)

To jump in on the hyphenation thing...I too find it a bit bizarre to keep this up generations after the original immigration. However, I do think the situation is a little different in the US as essentially almost EVERYONE there is an immigrant, so perhaps there isn't quite the sense of one America/American that you get in older countries? On the other hand, the Aussies don't seem to do this...

It does seem to be a specially American habit and so, because it is unusual, it seems odd to others.

Knowing quite a lot of 1st generation immigrants in the UK, their kids don't hyphenate themselves. They tend to either identify with their parents culture or consider themselves British, or switch between the two depending on circumstances. I've never heard anyone hyphenate themselves. One of my nephews is both British AND American, for example, but no-one calls him American-English. No doubt if he settles here, his kids will just be plain old British, or if he goes to the states, his kids will be plain old American.

Likewise, my best friend isn't Irish-English despite her Irish mum.

Over here you also get very close-knit communities that will consider themselves still their cultural/ethnic group AS WELL as English/British. But again, they don't tend to hyphenate.

Not sure everyone is an immigrant. I guess the native americans (hyphens!) would consider themselves pretty local while anyone born in the country can hardly claim to have come from somewhere else.

Maybe the issue is not that they came from somewhere else but rather they have nowhere they can call home so they wander the hills and fields of US looking for their (blast from the past) roots.

No CW is right they are barking

Fascinating, indeed.

I don't think that anyone said that considering yourself a hyphenated American was a bad or negative thing. Obviously, you can do what you want.

Yet, I usually find the image of the "old country" a rather sugary illusion of Europe in the late 1800s or early 1900s -- minus the famines, wars, genocides, religious oppression, or simply minus extreme poverty.
This, of course, helps any business between Adare in Co. Limerick, and Rothenburg ob der Tauber in Germany.

So, on the other hand, you may have to stand a bit of laughter when an Irishman or a German goes to one of the "heritage festivals" and sees what you consider typical Irish or German.

It would be interesting to revisit this discussion after another fifty years and see whether those who live in London have taken on a more American attitude toward maintaining ethnic and cultural traditions after being there for generations. Unfortunately I won't be around for the outcome.

If you followed the logic of the hyphen, I reckon a huge chunk of the English would qualify as being Irish-English.

Can't think of many (except CW) who doesn't have a Mick perched somewhere in their family tree.

I've got bogtrotters running down both sides of the family, but would never dare to hyphen myself with 'Irish'.

Some Irish cousins and ten days in Dublin and Galway doesn't make for an ethic identity.

I have an American friend whose father is English, so he has dual nationality.

He describes himself as an American with a British passport, which is accurate. He ain't English by any stretch of the imagination. Talks too loudly for a start...

nona...i believe you are just talking about the label. i don't think the label is very important. the fact is that many people here in the uk also consider themselves with dual national identities. although we don't say asian-british, south african-british, etc the concept is clearly there. it's fantasy to say that everyone in britain considers themselves british with no implied 'hyphenation'. in fact, our immigration strategy has been to favour 'hyphenation' (although implied).

There is a question of identity involved. I have never tried to research my ancestry in any formal way, but I know all of it back to at least 1850, and some of it a little more. Given how little mobility there was in Ireland that long ago, I know not only my bloodline, but also the places where my ancestors were located. It might contribute to my sense of being Irish, of belonging here -- although, if it does, I advert to it very little: I am who I am, and am not defined by the baker or the fisherman from 1850.

But there are Americans who do not have the same assurance of being connected with their forebears or ancestral places, and seem to feel a sense of loss because of it. That is why there is money to be made from genealogy; it's the Americans in search of their roots who are the main consumers of services. Some can not, from their own family knowledge, reach back even as much as 100 years into their origins. It seems to matter a great deal to some of them.

I struggle with a hyphen in a surname but hey indesiveness in a family is not unreasonable but a real hyphen in a first name (let alone a implied hyphen) seems a bit odd. What about Decklen O-Range I guess

"That is why there is money to be made from genealogy; it's the Americans in search of their roots who are the main consumers of services"

And the Mormons. They baptise their ancestors.

Seriously they have the best resources for anyone looking up family history.

Regarding these hyphenated nationalities. I am put in mind of Brendan Behan's observation that "An Anglo-Irishman is a Protestant with a horse."

Still amazed that the English get all the stick because of a Dutchman and a Scot fighting over Ireland.

Padraig offered:
>there are Americans who do not have the same assurance of being connected with their forebears or ancestral places, and seem to feel a sense of loss because of it. <

Many Americans, not only Irish, feel this loss primarily because they left everything in the country of origin and, on arriving in the States, were forced to change their names, learn a new language, adopt new ways, and learn how to deal with hatred and segregation. Blacks were not the only people to deal with segregation. Italians, Irish, Greeks, many others dealt with it. That's why there's so many Irish Police in Boston, NYC, and Philadelphia. It was the only way to deal with the hatred.

So many left because of famine, money (or lack of), religious freedom but what they found was not what they envisioned. They left a good part of their identity behind, their ancestors, and many could never speak of their homelands again.

Am I of Irish descent, Yes I am. My maternal grandparents came to the States from County Clare and my paternal greatgrandparents came from Limerick area and my paternal grandfather's name was changed when he entered Ellis Island and that's probably why we have so many Duffys here now.

This was a great read - I've enjoyed it but, no way in Hades, would I wear orange. Just my humble opinion.

Interesting thread.

US citizens are certainly not the only people interested in their heritage as evidenced by this thread. We just have to look harder to find our roots, and their usually include a lot of nationalities.

My cousin, a Canadian with roots in England, Scotland and France as well as First Nations (Canadian Indians), is the most knowledgeable about the family tree. But then Canada and Australia are also nations full of immigrants. If she wears orange on St. Paddy's Day she doesn't mention it.

<Still amazed that the English get all the stick because of a Dutchman and a Scot fighting over Ireland.>

William was born in The Hague, Holland and James was born in St James Palace, London in 1633. Who's the Scot, JR?

LN wrote: "no way in Hades, would I wear orange."

I see no connection between this and the rest of what you wrote. Can you explain it, please?

The OP's question related to wearing bright orange. In deference to my grandparents' dislike of most things orange I myself would never wear orange.

Many of the Irish who immigrated to the States left a country where their families did not have enough to feed their children. When they came into the States they found themselves in the midst of a major depression with not much work or food.

It pleases me that Ireland has evolved into the economic position it now holds.

Thanks for the answer, LN. I gather from it that you won't wear orange because of a family tradition, and that you might not have been given any explanation of why such a sentiment was held.

And I can't see why, either. The colour orange has some significance because of its association with the Orange Order and its role in conflict between unionists and nationalists in the north of Ireland. That conflict had no significant connection with the great famine or the less-often mentioned other famines in the 19th century; it had little connection with the land clearances; it had no impact on life in Limerick or Clare where your people came from; it was not a significant driver of emigration. It had no connection with Ellis Island or the hardships endured by people arriving in America.

But somehow there is a feeling among Irish-Americans that orangeism is connected with the hardships that their ancestors endured. That is part of the bitterness that I referred to earlier in this thread, and that walkinaround found hard to believe.

Hi again Padraig

Thanks for the enlightening information. Perhaps my Granddad had eternal difficulties with his countrymen from Belfast and could never resist any opportunity to "tell it like it was". Who knows where the truth was spoken or the belief was offered.

If he were alive today and see what politics has brought about he would be a surprised Mick. But then he's probably be surprised by all nis grandkids.

Do you live in Ireland now, and if so, which area?

Wasn't Ireland one of the countries being boycotted for not helping out in Iraq (along with France, Germany, and Belgium)?

I've seen Irish people wear orange (not a jump suit mind you- too much orange may raise eyebrows because you'd look like a criminal or a public works person).

>> So in short there is no one in America who's parents were actually Irish <<

Which will come as news to my nephew and niece, whose Cork-born father is the reason they also carry Irish passports (for travel, business, and perhaps as a connection to their late father).

On my last trip to Ireland orange was ironically the hot new color, with many young people in orange shirts with a mobile phone glued to the ear.

LN asked: "Do you live in Ireland now, and if so, which area?"

Yes. Dublin-born, now living 50 miles north of the city, close to the border.

TrollSilentTrollDeep wrote: "Wasn't Ireland one of the countries being boycotted for not helping out in Iraq (along with France, Germany, and Belgium)?"

No. I wonder about your choice of name here: it gives a wrong impression of you.

ireland would never be boycotted by usa for anything, the opposite more like.

from northern ireland- NEVER any problems with wearing orange, no matter what time of year, besides maybe a slight ribbing from mates.

I can't believe this thread is still going on.

Yes, it's nice that this thread has continued. I know I've learned a thing or two from it!!

I haven't read the whole thread, but in fact there would be occasions in the north of Ireland where wearing orange would be inappropriate, so I think the scornful comments are quite unnecessary. I think a lot of people in the republic don't realise how much of an issue these things still are in the North. Since OP isn't going to be in the north, there should be no problem but I don't think the question is entirely stupid. Go to any council estate in N.I and the lampposts and pavements are painted in red, white and blue (or sometimes orange) or green, white and orange. My relatives would think twice before wearing orange clothing in their Catholic housing estates. I know this isn't what the OP is going to be doing, but the question would be valid in some circumstances. I think the people who think this would never possibly be an issue are showing themselves to be more ignorant than the OP.

>>the question would be valid in some circumstances. I think the people who think this would never possibly be an issue are showing themselves to be more ignorant than the OP>>

mariposa, i said:
from northern ireland- NEVER any problems with wearing orange, no matter what time of year

This is not what i think but what I know, seeing as i am from northern ireland. I can tell you that there is no problem wearing orange in catholic council estates.
perhaps tho you would refrain from wearing union jack clothing.

South Armagh (in NI) has a high concentration of people of nationalist or republican sentiment. The county gaelic football team, which has had some success in recent years, plays in orange colours. When they play, it is almost a problem not to wear orange.

travel_buzzing wrote: "This is not what i think but what I know, seeing as i am from northern ireland. I can tell you that there is no problem wearing orange in catholic council estates.
perhaps tho you would refrain from wearing union jack clothing."

The other dress guideline that you seriously need to follow in nationalist/republican areas is not to wear a Glasgow Rangers shirt. Correspondingly, one should not wear a Glasgow Celtic shirt in unionist/loyalist areas. People have been attacked, and some have been killed, for wearing the "wrong" football shirt.

i would like to add to your comment tho padraig that this is the same for nearly any "bad" area (in uk etc.) where violence and football supporters/gangs seem to clash.

altho i agree that by wearing a rangers shirt in a predominantly catholic neighbourhood is like waving a union jack.

"James was born in St James Palace, London in 1633. Who's the Scot, JR?"

That would be James Stuart VII of Scotland, brother of Charles Stuart I of Scotland, son of James Stuart VI of Scotland, right back to Robert the Bruce.

You'll be telling me that Bonnie Prince Charlie was a cockney next.