rlm346

My wife and I are planning a trip to Spain for 22 nights from mid-September to early October (arrive & depart from Madrid). We would love to have feedback from anyone with knowledge of the areas we are traveling.

We have read Maribel’s excellent web guides and Fodor’s guides and “talk”. Many of the trip reports on Fodors have been especially helpful. We have booked our flights and are planning our itinerary however some key questions remain.

Our current plan is:
• Arrive Madrid (day train trip to Toledo)-3 nights
• Fly to San Sabastian (day trips to sites in Basque & La Rioja)-3 nights
• Fly or Drive to Barcelona & Costa Brava-5 nights
• Fly to Sevilla (day trips to Cordoba (train) & Jerez (drive))-4 nights
• Drive to Granada (stop at Rondo on the way to the coast)-2 nights
• Drive to Costa de Sol-3 nights
• Fly to Madrid (day train trip to Segovia)-2 nights

We are trying to minimize the number of hotel check ins and outs and like medium paced trips with a diverse agenda. We would like to visit the top historical sites (but not too many in the same day), view the work of top Spanish artists, see the natural beauty of the country, enjoy the food & wine and get a good feel of the people and the towns. We love to walk around and my wife loves to shop in unique places. By the way she is of Spanish heritage and is fluent in Spanish. I can speak and understand a little. I am also a professional photo artist and therefore look for great photo opportunities wherever I travel.

Our key questions are:
1-Is it practical to explore the Basque and La Rioja regions by car from San Sabastian? I read Maribel’s recommendations for places to stay to best explore each region but would like to stay in one place if possible. We are open to moving if that is a much better alternative.
2-We are considering staying in Cadaques for 2 nights and visiting Figueres and then exploring the coast before, during or after Barcelona. The alternative is to stay longer in Barcelona and explore the coast via day trips by car. What would you recommend?
3-What it the drive like from San Sabastian to Cadaques? Is there enough to see along the way to make the time involved worthwhile? Or, would you fly to Barcelona and drive to Cadaques?
4-Is Costa de Sol worth going to? We love the ocean and would love to explore all the coastal regions, but it is not necessary for us to spend a lot of time lying on the beach on this trip. We can do that anywhere but perceive that the Costa de Sol is part of the overall Spain experience.
5-We are leaving out the Valencia region but feel we cannot fit it in without skipping other areas that sound more interesting. Do you agree with that decision?
6-Would you allocate the time any different?

We would appreciate you assistance. Thanks,

Rich

STUMBLEBUM

We have travelled the entire Spanish coast from Cadiz to the French border. You may be trying to fit in too much (for example, Barcelona to Malaga is almost 1000km).

Cadaques is wonderful. Figueres - just for the Dali museum. The coast road that takes you most of the way to Barcelona is breath taking too.
The Costa Del Sol is not too visually attractive owing to development.
Check here http://stumblebumstravels.blogspot.c...ch/label/SPAIN and scroll down. this is all of our Spain trips. I really enjoyeds Seville and Cordoba. I want to go back to Jerez as I did not see much of it.

rlm346

Thanks for the feedback. I glanced at your site and it looks like it will be very helpful to us. We will spend more time reading through it. Just to clarify, we are not planning to drive from Barcelona to Costa de Sol. We fly to Sevilla and drive to the cost via Granada then fly back to Madrid. However, we are still covering a lot of ground. Are you suggesting that we might want to cut out the Costa de Sol visit and spend our time elsewhere?

markrosy

I agree with stumblebum - the Costa Del Sol is very very developed. You will not get much of a Spanish feel and the beaches are not that good either. Oddly enough - I don't think that it will complete your Spanish experience - rather begin your English - as we Brits have culturally ravaged the whole coast over the past 40 years.

From Barcelona I would fly to Granada, then drive on to Jaen, Cordorba, Rhonda, Jerez then on to Seville - if you like the coast head for the Costa De la Luz - Sanluca de Barameda or Tarifa are good destinations. The coast between Gibralter and Portugal has many small fishing villages and unspoint beaches - Cape Trafalger is worth a visit. The beaches remind me of Cape Cod - wind swept with lighthouses. Cadiz is also a great melting pot due to its proximity to Africa - again very colourful subject matter.

For a photographer Jerez and Seville make very good hunting grounds. The women (and this is a sexist comment) have to be amongst the most stunning in Europe - both cities have managed to avoid world culture and retain their own character - the people in the Triana quarter of Seville are flamenco fanatics - again great photography.

We haven't been to Valencia but it is next on our Spanish wish list as it
has enjoyed a huge renaissance over recent years and is a European centre of modern architecture and art.

STUMBLEBUM

Thumbs up for Valencia. Very nice city - compact town centre, amazing modern architecture in suburbs, such as the aquarium.
Ronda is worth the trip. Stunning 'new' bridge and oldest bull ring in Spain.
Cadiz is one of the few towns on my 'must return to list'. I deliberately keep that list very short. Tarifa coast area is very beautiful. I have not be to Jaen yet.
If you are driving from Cadaques to Barcelona, you absolutley must follow the wiggly coast road. Allow a few hours to enjoy it. It is the most stunning stretch of coast in Spain.

rlm346

Thanks Markrosy & Stumblebum. What you each say makes a lot of sense. I will reconsider my southern itenerary.

Any thoughts to staying in San Sabastian and with driving or flying from there to Barcelona/Costa Brava?

STUMBLEBUM

It would probably be just as quick to drive it, if you take into account check-in and waiting times.

I presume there is an internal flight?

I've not been to San Sebastian so can't comment on it.
I would drive and take in some of the Pyrenees mountains enroute.
If you are coming across from that direction, visit Besalu, just north west of Figueres. Beautiful village.

Revulgo

1- I'd recommend hire a car to explore Basque and Rioja because are short legs. Interesting places (for me) in
Basque: San Sebastian, Bilbao, Getaria (to dine superb hake), Hondarribia (coastal village)...
In Rioja: Laguardia & Haro (wineries), Najera & Santo Domingo de la Calzada (historical sights).
3- I'd flight from San Sebastian to Barcelona.
4- Costa del Sol is too much touristy. For beaches consider Zahara de los Atunes area (Cadiz).
5- The most interesting in Valencia is the City of Arts & Sciences and oldtown Valencia. Skip the region.
6- My suggestion is a bit of the less touristy inland Andalucia. A day trip from Granada to Ubeda & Baeza is great.
http://geneura.ugr.es/ubeda.html

Jen

I agree with others about the Costa del Sol... no character whatsoever. When my friend and I left that area, we both thought "it will be good to get back to Spain!"

If you drive from San Sebastian to Barcelona, you might consider a stop in Pamplona for a night or two...

rlm346

Thank you all for your suggestions. I am digesting what you advised and tuning my plan accordingly. It appears that there is a clear consensus that the core of Costa de Sol is overbuilt and touristy and has lost much of its "spanish" flavor.

Stumblebum: I did mean an internal flight; considering Iberia flights to Barcelona from San Sebastian which take about 1 hour. Spanair does not seem to offer that route. If I drive are you suggesting a northern route into France or staying in Spain? I will consider Besulu whether we fly or drive since I plan to visit Figueres.

Revulgo:
•I am certainly planning on a car to do day trips from San Sebastian. I should have made that clear in my initial message. Do you think we can cover your suggested places in 2.5 days which includes exploring San Sebastian? If not, which of your recommendations would you focus on? Also, would you recommend spending more time in that region at the expense of some other area?

•You & Markrosy recommended the Jaen-Ubeda-Baeza area as a day trip from Granada. We will look at that as a possibility in our new plan.

Jen: Do you consider Pamplona a must see in the region (which we can get to from San Sebastian if we want) or do you think it a better base of operations than San Sebastian?

I will post soon with a new plan and possibly (probably) more questions.

Thanks, Rich

ComfyShoes

Hi Rich,

Interesting itinerary. First, wife of spanish heritage who speaks spanish, and you can speak/understand a little? Reminds me of someone

Twenty-two days is a fairly nice sized vacation time frame. Good for you. That said, I suggest you ask yourself what exactly are you trying to accomplish? Visit as many places as possible or get a real flavor of Spain. Your current itinerary seems pretty aggressive to me. Doable but aggressive.

Costa del sol: hmm.... I concur with many above. It is rather commercialized. You can even find "English Breakfast" signs everywhere. Topless beaches abound (man-to-man, there are some things best left to imagination), and plenty of few small intlets and coves along the coast, and most of them have rocky dropoffs very suitable for snorkeling, and deeper rock reefs for scuba. Do these interest you? If not, perhaps best to focus on small villages/towns in the area. You can find many good suggestions here: http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34954915. I also suggest looking for "white village" in the Fodors search function.

Personally, I prefer to meet with people, when possible experience their culture as they see it, minimize driving (unless needed, which is fine with me), and enjoy good food. For food, look for an ongoing thread by amsdon.

Overall, my suggestion is to keep Madrid, San Sebastian, Barcelona... legs as-they are. Good flavor of a wide variety of Spanish regions, specially since you are flying everywhere. But then stick to Sevilla/Granada/Nerja/Ronda/Jerez/Malaga area and insert in half a dozen smaller villages just in case you have time or your plans change while there. That also is too much but you can pick and choose.

Lastly, I have been to Spain four times over the last decade but do NOT consider myself an expert (that's only eight weeks over ten long years!). For that reason, let me invoke some real experts for you who will provide amazing advice (they helped me out... big time). Kend and Josele and Lincasanova, where are you guys?

Hope it helps Happy to comment on your next itinerary if you want me to.

Best wishes.

MichelleY

I would rec that you get a car for the Basque area, Rioja & base in San Sebastian. Drive to the Costa Brava, Cadeques etc. then drop your car before your stay in Barcelona. You will get a much better car rate for a week. If you don't use a car for the Basque area, Tenedor tours can put something together for you. I believe Maribel recommends them. We used them for a wine & food tour of San Sebastian last summer, it was great.

I will try to top my trip report for you.

MY

MichelleY

Just topped our trip report for you. It is very long & not so exciting but it may help.

MY

Sally30

If you do go to Cadaques be sure to go to the Dali house (different from the museum). you have to make a reservation in advance. I loved the house. The Dali museum was good too but I found the house more interesting. We did both as a long day trip from Barcelona which was fine but I was there for a shorter time so a longer stay (as you have planned) would be nice too.

STUMBLEBUM

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ie=UTF...p;z=7&om=0

I would stick to the Spanish side, mainly as most car hire companies in Spain, won't provide cover to take the car in to France. It might take a bit longer, but I think for scenery it would be great.

josele

Hello, Rich
sorry for not posting before, I am pretty busy preparing my next exhibition (did you mention top Spanish artists?)
I live at Costa del Sol, so info I provide is mostly first hand. I agree with other posters, it is too developed, and these places all look the same. For beaches, those at Zahara de los Atunes and Conil are much better, though windy. But here in Malaga we are having big jellyfish infestations that makes bathing a risk.
I dont understand some parts of your trip, especially the "drive to Granada stopping in Ronda on the way to the coast" as it doesn't make sense.
Daytrip to Cordoba is a good idea. The daytrip to Jerez I suggest avoiding the car. Jerez city center is not very big, and for going to some bodega, you can always take a taxi.
Ronda is not a place I recommend for a daytrip. There are enough places to visit there, as well as in the surroundings. I'd spend more time here instead of the Costa del Sol.
I'd basically drive from Seville to Pueblos Blancos (Arcos de la Frontera) and Ronda; or (if you want some beach) you can drive Seville to MedinaSidonia and Vejer de la Frontera and spend a night there as it has easy access to the Atlantic beaches; and then move on north again to Ronda; Then Granada via Antequera, avoiding the coast-
The problem with Ubeda and Baeza is that they are Two places full of monuments. Not the place for a daytrip, but for 2-3 days stay.

Revulgo

2.5 days is a very short time for Basque & Rioja. The top must see are San Sebastian and Bilbao in Basque. In Rioja the wineries in Laguardia.

Jen

I really liked Pamplona-- we did 2 nights there and 2 nights in San Sebastian. If I was forced to choose between staying there or staying in San Sebastian, I guess I'd pick San Sebastian and daytrip to Pamplona, or stop there on the way to Barcelona (if you drive). If you dump the Costa del Sol, I would recommend filling those days with a little more of the Basque/Rioja areas (beautiful scenery), or in the south. Perhaps spend a night in some of your daytrip towns (Cordoba, Pamplona,and especially Toledo, which is wonderful, etc.)-- this will slow your pace a bit and allow you to take in your surroundings a bit more...

basingstoke2

Just another voice to skip the Costa del Sol for the reasons stated - your time could be better spent. I would also think twice about spending a day for Jerez unless you really want to take a "sherry tour." IMO Toledo takes on a completely different character at night and is well worth a stay-over.

rlm346

SPAIN TRIP REVISED PLAN:
Thank you all for your thoughtful suggestions. Sorry for the delay in responding to all of you. I have had quite a bit to digest. I have also gone back and reviewed in more depth some of your prior posts and those of others and revised our plan.

I would probably need 4-6 weeks to incorporate all of your suggestions so I clearly have had to make tradeoffs. We will hit those areas (or more depth on our current plan) in future trips.

We have dropped Costa de Sol as many of you have recommended and added the extra time into our Basque/LaRoija and Andalusia portions. I have also broken my goal of minimizing the number of hotels in two cases to assure we really get a feel of the towns (Ronda & Toledo).

One other factor that has been prominent in my planning is not to have our luggage & other items in our car for long periods of time while we explore a town because I have heard so much about car break-ins. So our plan is to check into a hotel then explore (or at least leave our bags at the hotel). AM I BEING PARANOID OR IS THIS A GOOD PRACTICE. Also, how safe is it to leave bags in a car when you go into a restaurant for a long lunch?

I have summarized below our current plan. I WOULD APPRECIATE ANY ADDITIONAL THOUGHTS ON THIS REVISION IF YOUR TIME ALLOWS. I PARTICULARLY WOULD LIKE TO KNOW YOUR THOUGHTS ON MY MODE OF TRAVEL FROM SEVILLE TO TOLEDO.

Once I have your feedback and make a few other decisions I plan to move to the next phase of reserving rooms & airlines. DO I NEED TO RESERVE TRAINS AHEAD OF TIME OR CAN I DO IT A DAY OR TWO BEFORE WE PLAN TO TRAVEL ON THEM?

SUGGESTION TO TRIP PLANNERS: I have found Google Earth immensely valuable during this planning. Every time I hear about a place I can plug it in and it locates it on the map for me. I also use the directions to find driving distance and time between places to help with planning.

TRIP PLAN:

MADRID (3 nights):
•Arrive in mid-AM;
•Explore Madrid: for1.5 days + 1 day trip to Segovia by train.

SAN SEBASTIAN (4 nights):
•Fly to San Sabastian arrive mid-day.
•We are considering 2 nights in SS & 2 nights in a more La Rioja central location.
•3.5 days to explore Basque & La Rioja

COSTA BRAVA(2 nights):
•Either drive through the Pyrenees to the coast (leaving early AM or fly to Barcelona (arrive mid-day) and drive up the coast. With mixed feedback on flying vs driving I am still trying to decide.
•We have read some posts by Maribel and others about some small villages midway between Cadaques and Barcelona. We are trying to decide whether 2 nights in Cadaques, two in another village or one in each.
•Visit Figueres; explore coastline for about 2 days.

BARCELONA (3 nights):
•Arrive mid-day or early PM of first day.
•Explore Barcelona: 2.5 days
•Leaving open the possibility of going to Monterrat on day 3 if we feel we have covered enough of Barcelona by then (but unlikely).

GRANADA (2 nights):
•Fly from Barcelona to Malaga. Drive to Nerja Caves then onto Granada. Might try to stop at Picasso museum in Malaga depending on timing.
•Explore Granada: 1.5 days

RONDA (1 night):
•Drive to Ronda. Arrival dependent how much more time we need to spend in Granada that day. Probably arrive about mid-day..
•Explore Ronda: 1 day

SEVILLE (4 nights)
•Drive to Seville stopping at Arcos de la Fontera on the way. Probably leave Ronda about mid-day and arrive let in PM in Seville.
•Explore Seville plus day trips to Cordoba by train and drive to Jerez/Cadiz area.

TOLEDO (1 night):
•Leave Seville either early AM or early PM depending on whether we need more time in Seville.
•Travel either by train to Madrid then onto Toledo by train or drive to Toledo. If we drive we might stop in Merida briefly.
•Explore Toledo: 1 day

MADRID (2 nights):
•Train or drive to Madrid. This will depend in part on whether we drove to Toledo.
•Arrive in Madrid mid-to-late PM.
•Explore Madrid for the last time: 1 day.

Thanks for you interest, Rich