Mark

Interesting article on page A12 of this mornings's Washington Post, headlined "Fearful French See Crime on the Rise: Spate of Incidents Fuels Concern Country Is Becoming More Dangerous Place". The article cites stats indicating several types of crime surpassing levels in the USA. On the other hand, remember Rule #1 when reading ANY newspaper: don't believe everything you read. That said, what do you Fodorites think? Especially you French Fodorites and those of you who have recently been to France? <BR>P.S. Can this please be a civilized and respectful discussion? Lately, the tone on this forum has frequently been very nasty.

Sheila

Web Linkfor us Europeans? please?

Florence

This is hardly new in France and has been reported in the French daylies and TV news program for more than 1 month now. That said, some of those alarming stats come from an agency that is highly involved with a security and protection firm selling safety devices to cities, like cameras, protection schemes, etc. ... so as you say, it must be taken with a grain of salt. <BR> <BR>Depending on the political agenda of the press, it is presented like a horrendous spate of crime threatening the life and safety of all and every French citizen, all the time and everywhere, or the consequence of more complaints than previously to the police, or the consequence of the near-apartheid condition in which some of the population live in the "banlieues" (the places we call "moche les grands clapiers" - "the big ugly rabbit hutches"), built around the bigger cities to house the mostly Algerian and Morrocan workers needed after the war to help rebuild France. The third of fourth generation living here feel, not entirely without reason, that they are unwanted, have no chance of ever getting good jobs, money, etc. Unemployment is much more prevalent than in the general population, their fathers are in the most part jobless. They are the perfect prey for drug dealers, islam-fanatics, etc. They admire a subculture made of distorted images of African-Americans (rappers, gangsta, ...), neglect their education, lack authority figures etc. <BR> <BR>There is indeed an increase in violent crimes (robberies, rape, drug-related violence) among that population. <BR> <BR>On the other hand, tourists will not be affected since that population live and is kept well outside of the touristy areas. <BR> <BR>Crime (pickpockets, all kinds of scams, occasionnal muggings) targetting tourists has always existed (read The Hunchback of Notre Dame for a description of the "Cour des Miracles", the organisations of thieves and beggars in the past), and will persist because it is rather well organised and tends not to be so important (to the local populations and therefore politicians) as to attract the attention of the police forces (they will not change their ways for a few tourists they perceive should have been more careful, when they have to take care of policing demonstrations, strikes, the infernal traffic in cities centers, protests, etc.). <BR> <BR>In addition, there is a constant flow of refugees from Eastern Europe countries, of which some clearly come in order to commit crimes and take advantage of the wealth of our countries (someone in another thread wrote that nobody was trying to enter Western Europe at the risk of their lives: hundreds die annually only in the Gibraltar straits in the hope of reaching Spain only ... A boatful of Kurdish refugees run aground near Marseilles last Spring ... 40 Chinese died of suffocation in a truck taking them to England from France 2 years ago ...). <BR> <BR>I'm no pessimist, but I believe we will see worse for a while until the problems I described are seriously tackled and some of the poorest countries in Asia, Eastern Europe, and Africa reach a better standard of living (not to talk of

Mark

Apologies to Sheila and all the other EuroFodorites! I should never get on the internet until after I finish my morning coffee. The Post can be found at www.washingtonpost.com

Watchout

Here is a quote from the above mentioned article: "Last year France recorded 4,244 crimes per 100,000 inhabitants, compared with 4,135 in the United States, where crime has been steadily decreasing. The United States still leads France in the number of murders and rapes per 100,000 residents, but France leads in violent thefts and some property crimes, including car theft. <BR> <BR>For violent theft, France recorded 185 incidents per 100,000 people, compared with 145 in the United States. For simple theft, France had 2,588 incidents per 100,000 people, compared with 2,475 in the United States. And car theft was far higher in France, with 507 reported cases per 100,000 compared with 420 in the United States. <BR> <BR>"For myself, and my fellow French citizens, we were used to reading about these things in the United States," said Alain Brunier, who heads the Europe and Middle East branch of a medical device and technology company. "Now it's right here, in a country much, much smaller than the United States.". <BR> <BR>Be careful over there. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>

rand

There was an article in my local rag on Saturday which must be a spinoff of some French news release. It quoted the American ambassador in Paris as saying that in peak tourist season, when he arrives at work, it is usual to find a line of 40 Americans waiting to file for new passports. They cited the usual hotspots to be careful. The airports, the subways from the airports, the Notre Damme, the Louvre, etc. <BR> <BR>Never mind a money belt, I think I will chain my passport to my knickers.

Capo

Shelia, the link to the article itself is: <BR> <BR>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2001Aug20.html <BR> <BR>Very interesting. <BR> <BR>The article notes: "The fact that so many crimes in France now involve firearms raises questions about France's supposedly strict gun control laws compared with what is seen as a much more permissive system in the United States." <BR> <BR>And goes on to note that: "One problem for France is its central location. Many weapons filter in from Spain, Italy, and Belgium, and also from Eastern Europe, where weapons have been plentiful since the outbreak of ethnic warfare in the Balkans. <BR> <BR>However it also states that: "For the most part, however, guns have been used by professional criminals, or in dramatic attacks..." and "Most mugging are committed by teenagers using knives or, more commonly, their fists to assault their victims." <BR>______________________________ <BR> <BR>Now being mugged with by a knife-wielding assailant is nothing to take lightly, but I'd rather be faced with a knife, or fists, anyday, than be staring down the barrel of a gun. <BR> <BR>(By the way, the author of this article, Keith Richburg, wrote an excellent book called <I>Out of America: A Black Man Confronts Africa</I>, based on his experiences covering sub-Saharan Africa as a reporter for the Washington Post from 1991 to 1994.)

carol

Florence, <BR> <BR>A note of appreciation for your thoughtful and very informative posting.

Sheila

Thank you Capo (and Mark)and for anyone trying to read it the link is right, it just doesn't work. having spent 10 minutes with the Washington Post I'm well impressed with Fodor's web site

Chris

It's just like anything else -- where did the crime happen? At what time? To whom? I have a feeling that being on the "main tourist lines" in the thick of tourists diminishes the chances of staring down the barrel of a gun, the blade of a knife, etc. You're much less likely to be mugged on the Champs Elysses at 2PM than at 2AM. <BR> <BR>Your biggest concern as a tourist is pick pockets. It's not all that difficult to foil them. Oh they're good, but your goal is only to look like your pocket is more difficult to pick than the next guy's. I've seen some AMAZING things, and I'm sure some of those 40 people who are lined up before the consulate opens are some of the people I've seen! Open purses, purses on the backs of chairs, purses kept to the BACK of the woman's hip, tourists (American) yelling "Hey Margie, which stop is the Looovrah? Do you know? I don't know! Check the guidebook!" on the metro, open camera cases, bags left on tables for "just for a minute", the list goes on and on and on. <BR> <BR>I'm an American who doesn't own a money belt (skip a beat for the gasp from the crowd) and (you'd better sit down) I made it through Madrid with a PURSE (smattering of applause.) I concentrate on ONE thing at a time (don't juggle my camera, sandwich, drink, map, etc., all at once.) I DON'T use the map from the tourist office (you know, the huge one with "COURTESY OF THE TOURIST OFFICE" on it (I buy the small pop-up map found in bookstores and tourist shops or use the one from my hotel and I have the sites circled with addresses and opening hours written in -- and I fold it SMALL so I see only the area I'm currently in.) <BR> <BR>Nothing screams "American tourist" like a baseball cap and a money belt (you're not fooling pick pockets.) Remember, American tourists are targeted because our passports are worth more than our credit cards. <BR> <BR>Pickpockets prey on those who are distracted. Don't be distracted! Don't open the huge map in the middle of the sidewalk (you're doing the pick pockets a HUGE favor by holding it over your pocket -- you can't see what they're doing!), don't leave your bag open because you're only taking one picture (close it EVERY TIME you open it, no matter HOW short the time is.) Keep your purse to the front of your body and keep your hand OVER it when you're on the metro (even when it's crowded and your hand is in someone's butt -- it's YOUR passport, YOUR money and YOUR time and it's much easier to wash your hand than replace all your stuff). Don't stare gape-mouthed at what's going on around you (that's why I wear sunglasses on cloudy days -- so I can see what's going on around me without anyone knowing I'm watching, and I do manage to keep my mouth shut), know your metro stop BEFORE you get on the metro (and keep your mouth shut! If you can manage that "I'm really quite bored with life" look that the French have, you're golden.) <BR> <BR>There are exceptions to every rule, naturally, and no matter how careful someone is, they can still be pickpocketed. But violent crime against tourists is relatively rare. And the statistics for stolen passports include the young man who left his bag on some rocks while he went swimming "just for a couple of minutes." <BR> <BR>Just relax, be aware of your surroundings and of what you're doing. A distracted tourist is a pick pocket's easiest prey. Violent crime? As Florence said, it mostly affects those in the banlieues. <BR> <BR>Sorry for the semi-rant, but it always bothers me to see people get their panties in a twist because of some senstaionalized article they've not thought through. And when you see statistics, you don't see the stories behind them. When you hear about pick pockets, everyone thinks that the victim was as unapproachable as Ft. Knox, when in actuality most victims leave themselves vunerable -- they won't admit that they were so inattentive. <BR> <BR>Travel, be aware, and have fun. It is possible to do all three!

Florence

Chris, <BR>Thieves prey on the tired, the jet-lagged, the disorientated, not only the uncareful or distracted tourists. Whatever the distraction or uncarefulness of a tourist, he is the victim and a thief is a criminal. I hate it when the victim is turned into a culprit. <BR> <BR>Watchout: no wonder there is more car theft in France (and generally in Western Europe) than in the USA, given the huge demand for luxury cars in Eastern Europe, Turkey, etc., and the easiness of just driving stolen cars there. <BR> <BR>Capo: the main difference re. usage of firearms is in the fact that criminals will use them much more readily than in the past. The professionnal criminals in France have always had a large supply of them, if only through the leftovers from WWII. The general population will not usually use them, since not many European citizen feel unsafe enough to want to have one for protection (we still rely on police and public service first - and I truly hope it'll stay this way. In case someone feels they need a gun for protection or professional use, they have to justify it to the authorities, and if they can they will get a license). <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>