Visitors to UK to be restricted to 3 months?

> they will affect those who want to have a long stay in Europe legally, by playing Schengen and non-Schengen rules ....

IOW, those who are finessing the system will no longer be able to.

Why - 90 days in Schengen, 90 days out of Schengen in the UK.

In fact the up to 90 days is granted on every entry to the UK, so you can do 45 days Schengen, 45 days UK, 45 days Schengen, 45 days UK or any other combination you like

Alec, you seem to be well informed regarding extended travel in Europe. My daughter is currently in France she entered around the 1st of July. Like many other people you have helped she has overlooked the Schengen Agreement and realized that she will be one month short on her plaanned stay. She is travelling on her Australian passport and also holds a US passport. What can she do to extend her stay as a visitor? She is prepared to stay longer and work if that is an option. Thanks in advance.

Why don't they just join Schengen and be done with it....it's always interesting...you can enter any Schengen country now, say Germany, travel to Poland, Hungary, Austria, Czech Republic, back to Germany, France and never once be asked for a passport but as soon as you get on Eurostar in Paris, well it's passport time again......

What do you mean by just join Schengen are you speaking about individuals getting a VISA or are you referring to the other Countries joining the agreement?

You daughter needs to contact the authorities at the nearest Australian embassy to get information on her situation. I don;t believe she can do anything once she has arrived except be sure she leaves on time. And working is a complete no - no - that could really get her in trouble.

If she overstays her time and is found she will likely be summarily deported (at her own expense) and possibly fined and banned from the EU for a period of years.

Unless your embassy tells her of a way around this - she needs to get out of Dodge on time - or risk the consequences.

(I'm sure Australia doesn't allow people just to come as tourists and stay as long as they feel like - why think it works that way in europe?)

>> you can enter any Schengen country now, say Germany, travel to Poland, Hungary, Austria, Czech Republic, back to Germany, France and never once be asked for a passport

Not true. I was asked for my passport on the train from Prague to Dresden. So was everyone else sitting in my compartment on the train.

ozbecky,

Your daughter cannot legally work anywhere in the Schengen zone unless if she has a work visa, regardless if she stays less than or more than 90 days in a 180 day period.

The 90 days visa "waiver" period is only for tourism, not working or studying. If you want to stay beyond 90 days, you need a long-stay visa. There are many different types, some of these long-stay visas allow employment and some do not (they are only for retired people with sufficient funds to live here).


The visa application process is long and involves a lot of bureaucracy. Usually it takes around 4 months to get the visa and it requires an employer to be willing to do the paperwork for the person they want to hire. This means that if your daughter wants to stay in Schengen to work, she needs to have a job lined up and an employer who will be willing to hire her, do the paperwork for her work visa, AND prove that no other EU person can do her job. Please pay attention to the fact that every country has different policies and that when they grant you a visa, it is for mainly working in that country. So you cannot apply for a Czech visa and go to France to work without checking with French authorities (despite the fact that these countries are "Schengen", they really all have their own rules and some local laws contradict Schengen laws, so please be aware).


There is very little chance for your daughter to be hired if her only skill was "speaking English" because there are plenty of EU persons who can already do this. The employer must prove a valid reason for hiring a non-EU person to do the job.

nytraveler: "You daughter needs to contact the authorities at the nearest Australian embassy"

ozbecky's daughter's issue has nothing at all to do w/ the Oz embassy. They don't issue the visas - the French authorities do . . .

ozbecky: xyz123 was commenting about the original post which he probably didn't realize is two years old - he wasn't commenting about your daughter's problem. You topped this old thread to piggy back on a post about possible changes to tourist stays in Great Britain. That has nothing to do w/ France or your daughter.

You probably should re-post a new thread of your own w/ your questions about over staying in France. But the short and dirty is -- she probably can't overstay legally. And she DEFINITELY can't work legally.

Your daughter has to be out of the Schengen area within 90 days of arrival. Full stop. There is NO way she can get permission to stay any longer.

Her options are:

1. Just stay on, illegally. She'll likely not be caught, and if caught it's likely not much will happen. But if she plans on doing much travel once she's grown up, having this on her record won't help her.
If she does this, and she's entered on her Oz passport, she absolutely must NOT try to use her unstamped US passport to leave. She - not her Oz passport - was given 90 days on arrival, and if she leaves on day 120 she'll probably get little more than a stern lecture from the outgoing passport control officer. If she presents an unstamped US passport, they'll start asking why it's unstamped, there's a high risk they'll start ferreting and then start treating her as something more sinister than just another disorganised young Australian.

2. If she's booked a flight home in, say, 120 days, to spend the extra time in Britain or Ireland (or in the handful of Eastern European countries, like Croatia, that are outside Schengen, probably don't require an Australian to have a visa (though this time she MUST check, since some countries get tetchy at the fact that Australia requires their citizens to apply for visas), and are habitable.

Doing this creates complications about flying home, since she'll struggle to find a way of using her current ticket. Though in theory she can fly from, say, London to Paris and change planes there without goung through immigration, it'll be difficult to find an airline who'll through-check her bags on a separate ticket (BA, for example, simply won't). She won't be allowed through French immigration to collect her bags. I've no idea how this gets solved (apart from writing off her bags or her return flight), which brings us to option 3:

3. She can get on a plane back to Australia before her 90 days runs out and apply for a working holiday visa (WHV) for France, as most young Australians can and as she should have done in the first place. This almost always has to be done in her home country.

Though it's not the job of the Australian embassy to sort out your daughter's stupidity, and there's absolutely nothing they can do to get her current stay extended, it probably IS worthwhile for her to seek their advice. Given Australia's culture, it's likely she'll meet an official who's modestly sympathetic to this: she's not the first, and Oz diplomats typically did a fair bit of semi-legal backpacking themselves in their gap year. She may well find someone who'll know the ropes of getting a French WHV. -though she certainly can't apply from France, and it's very unlikely it'll be a practical possibility to apply from London or Dublin.

Thanks guys, Apologies for the piggy back I can see how this was confusing. Alec sounded like he had a pretty clear idea of what this was all about for his earlier posts and being new to this forum I thought it might be easier to do so....

However, now that I am here and others are attempting to assist I should just make the situation entirely clear.

She is traveling for 5 months in and out of the Schengen Countries, she did not require a VISA for this visit (some agreement with Australia) but like may others she has overlooked the limitations of the Schengen Agreement for the 90 day visitor.

She was under the impression if she was not working (which she did not intend on doing) that she could stay up to 6 months. Now that she has become aware of the situation she is looking for the best way to complete the intended 5 month visit (without breaking the law).

She would consider staying longer if legal application for work would provide an extension and the only alternative.

Although she is well aware of the possible complications of work visas etc as her father and I both immigrated to Australia from the US may years ago...things were tough then and even more difficult now...all very understandable.

I guess the first question is: What if any thing can she do to extend her travels to any of the Schengen countries by an additional month?

and the second question is: If there is no way to visit any of these countries after the 90 day period is up, which countries could she visit that are not participating?

(After her 90 days is up, She will have 30 days remaining before her London departure date) that she would like to use to see more? Thanks again.

nancicita.....I've just reread your post and possibly what we need to investigate is what you refer to as the 'long stay VISITOR visa'.....seeking an employment visa was something she thought she might have to do in order to extend..your suggestion sounds much more sensible! BTW It sounds like the sponsership/working process over there is very similar to the process in Australia.

ozbecky, I found this website for you:
http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/TravelBulletins/Europe_Schengen and hope this helps. I find these Schengen rules confusing!

Thanks KTtravel. I'll have a look! Rules in general are confusing at the best of times....until one figures things out of course! This was an excellent site to refer. Probably should have visited before departure.....doesn't appear that she will be able to extend the 90 days, might have to find something else to do for the remaining 30 before her London departure....fortunately she leaves from there! Could have been tricky if she was leaving from one of the countries in the Schengen! Although I bet her travel agent might have said something to her about the rules....oh well ..Live and Learn! thanks again.

ozbecky
Unless I'm mistaken, Switzerland may not yet be part of the Schengen deal and also she still has the UK and Ireland too I think - but check those.

And what she needs to do is organise herself if she was planning on going to those countries or any other eastern Europe countries as flanneruk mentions, to use her time above 90 days in those countries and just the allowed 90 days within those countries under Schengen.
www.projectvisa.com is a good site that will have links to particular countries.

Just checked KTt's link and scrub Switzerland but UK, Ireland and a few others are possibilities.

I was once asked for my passport on a train going from Frankfurt to Paris...about three years ago, I took a tour that went from Germany to Poland to Hungary to Austria to Czech Republic back to Germany...we were "passported" at the Polish, Hungarian borders but nowhere else.

Recengtly I read a report from somebody taking the same tour and they claimed there wasn't a single passport check.

Just was reading a couple of articles. One was in the Times of London where there are complaints the British government now wants to receive info regarding all passengers coming into Britain whether by air, sea or rail before entering Britain. They want the carriers to collect the same kind of information the Americans (the most paranoid country in the world when it comes to travel of course thans to GWB, Cheney and their ilk)...a representative of Eurostar said it would be impossible to do so (although I don't understand what his particular concern is, immigration on Eurostar from Paris to London is handled at the Gare du Nord so they do passport checks there anyway). Can you imagine checking in for a ferry at Calais and having to collect all this information before the ferry sails?....In any event in the article it indicates the eu is claiming this would be illegal to do on ferries or planes coming from any other eu country as it violates the principle of free movement within the eu....

Also since I will be going to Ireland in August via Heathrow, I was reading the British government wants to end the passport free travel between the UK and Ireland (although it would be very difficult if not impossible to do so at the crossing between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland)....I guess the British government is catching its paranoia fever from their friends in Washington.

What's next? Fingerprinting all visitors...nah you don't do such things to people from countries who are supposedly your friends (or do you?).

Trouble is that some countries are not doing their bit in defense of illegal immigration from outside of the EU. Amazingly these guys manage to arrive at Calais having crossed loads of borders without being deported back to their home country.

A group of people were recently arrested in France they were organising illegal immigration into Europe. From Athens business class passengers were not checked and it was a favoured route for the affluent illegal immigrant. Once into Ireland it is easy to percolate into Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. You will presumably have a passport to get to Heathrow, what is the problem? Do you want to be blown up?

Hi ozb,
>After her 90 days is up, She will have 30 days remaining before her London departure date) that she would like to use to see more?<

Is there a reason that she wouldn't want to do 30 days in the UK and Ireland?

Have you googled "Schengen countries" to see who they are?

Hi ozbecky,

I think the easiest way for your daughter to stay in Europe without getting a visa is to go to the UK or Ireland after her 90 days is up. What I mean is:

- spend 3 months in Schengen countries
- then go to the UK or Ireland, and spend 3 months there
- then after that, she can either go back to Schengen or just return home to Australia


This way she doesn't need to apply for any visa.
However, please remember that she cannot work or study in any of the countries, Schengen or not.


It will be too complicated and difficult for her to apply for a visa, even if it's an extended tourist visa. And normally there is a long waiting period for Schengen visas, assuming that all required documents are submitted correctly and on time.


I've heard many people say that you could stay beyond the 90 day period illegally. But I wouldn't take this chance, since I've noticed the border patrols paying more attention to this issue lately. I've had my passport checked on the train between Germany and Switzerland, between the Czech Republic and Germany, between France and Belgium, as well as Czech Republic to Poland. And these are all Schengen countries.

Therefore, it is not true that you don't have to show your passport when going through the borders of Schengen countries. I guess some people don't know this (even EU nationals), because I've recently had an acquaintance told me that he didn't know he had to show his passport going from Germany to France (he's a German national). It is quite naive for him to think that there's no passport check. Some people don't realize that Europe is still very distinct from one country to another. The idea of "One Europe" still does not exist. Local laws contradict with EU laws. Schengen laws contradict with national laws. It's very complicated and as I've said before, a huge bureaucratic nightmare.



That being said...here's a very useful visual representation to help us
understand who is in the Schengen agreement and who is in the E.U.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Supranational_European_Bodies.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SchengenAgreement_map.svg

janissj -

Not suggesting that the Australian authorities can issue her a visa for a Schengen country - obviously they can't.

But, they can tell her what the specific rules are for her situation.

Obviously she could also get this info from the local authorities - but then she will have confessed that she is planning on overstaying her visa - probably not a very good idea.

If she prefers she can go online to the appropriate government department of the country she's in - but that information might not be perfectly clear. Hence the suggestion to ask her own embassy (who I'm fairly sure will tell her just to be sure she goes home within the 90 day limit).

nancicita
" I've heard many people say that you could stay beyond the 90 day period illegally. But I wouldn't take this chance, since I've noticed the border patrols paying more attention to this issue lately. I've had my passport checked on the train between Germany and Switzerland, between the Czech Republic and Germany, between France and Belgium, as well as Czech Republic to Poland. And these are all Schengen countries.

Therefore, it is not true that you don't have to show your passport when going through the borders of Schengen countries. I guess some people don't know this (even EU nationals), because I've recently had an acquaintance told me that he didn't know he had to show his passport going from Germany to France (he's a German national). It is quite naive for him to think that there's no passport check. "

It has all been a very variable hit and miss approach over the years as initially the Schengen agreement expanded and then has become applied to the EU.

I've read tales of quite a few people from Bootsnall - US travel site and yep many Americans would travel to Europe oblivious of the 90 day rule and some would even apply for a Schengen Visa whereas others stayed well over 90 days even on multiple occasions.

But perhaps because of people smuggling etc., the various countries are becoming more stringent for in some EU countries there have been ID cards residents are issued with that they would use to cross borders and of borders I can recall over ten years ago that some borders were not even manned at night.
On trains, passports or IDs I imagine could be asked for in checking tickets, especially if using something like a Eurail Pass with non EU people.

But generally speaking, the EU is shooting itself in the foot on tourism/travel re the 90 day rule because over the years there would have been heaps of younger backpackers and retirees wanting to spend far more than 90 days for all of Europe.

"They want the carriers to collect the same kind of information the Americans (the most paranoid country in the world when it comes to travel of course thans to GWB, Cheney and their ilk)"..."What's next? Fingerprinting all visitors...nah you don't do such things to people from countries who are supposedly your friends (or do you?)."

Has nothing to do with GWB, Cheney etc. It is the paranoia and the hysteria over profiling and racism that has gotten us where we are today. It would be common sense only to fingerprint and profile those that come from a group that commits about 99% of all terrorist acts on planes but if we did that, we'd hear screams of "racism" and lawsuits so unfortunately, little old Chinese ladies are treated the same as everyone else.

Re. passport checks within the Schengen area:

It is a common misconception that you can leave your ID card or passport at home when you travel within the Schengen area. Regular, mandatory immigration procedures are done at your first port of entry. But within the Schengen area, regular border controls have been replaced by spot controls, not only at the borders but also on major train routes or major highways and motorways. All that may happen at or near the former border, but can, in fact, happen anywhere. And while regular immigration procedures involve everyone wanting to get in, spot controls can be totally random. So in a train, you may see police checking IDs of some people, and not of other people.
The main advantage is in air and road travel where you do not stand in a line of people or cars for passport control.

Thanks to everyone. I now know a lot more than I did just a week ago. After speaking with my daughter, she wishes she had been more clear on the 90 restrictions before she left UK and Ireland for her first entry into SA Countries.

She would have planned things differently on the time frame based on a better understanding of how the 90 days are consecutive not based on re-entry or each country.

I agree from a travel perspective it really does put a limit on visitors wishing to stay longer, but perhaps as we are better informed, if we wish to stay longer we can apply for the appropriate extended visa assuming there is one.

Any way thanks again for the discussion. Happy Travelling to All regards OZBecky