PalQ

It's always kind of galled me that on nearly every purchase i make in Europe there is a ridiculously high VAT often tacked on and in fact hidden in the purchase price. Have a coffee in a cafe and it's often 20% or higher - one reason, along with higher wages and benefits paid to wait people that coffee costs $3-4 a cup in Europe (and no free refills!)
Anyway i think even in supermarkets i often pay a 20% or so VAT (Value-Added-Tax) that's been folded into the price.
So if i spend $2,000 on a trip just in purchases - food, hotel, transport, etc. I'm probably paying $400 or so into the tax coffers of European countries. I'm paying for their liberal welfare systems, medical care, etc. - all things i'm in favor of and wish we had in the US but i don't feel i should pick up the bill for it in Europe.
Not that a modest sales tax as in the US of around 6% wouldn't be bad as travelers do use some of the infrastructure, etc.
And though on large ticket items over a fairly substantial amount you can get the VAT refunded when you exit Europe, the little amounts you pay daily are not refundable - nor is the often 25% VAT on car rentals, etc.
I'd happy save my receipts, which often break down the VAT paid, and feel i deserve at least a partial refund of the total paid. Maybe then we wouldn't find Europe so dauntingly expensive and even more travelers may flock there.
What do you think? VAT justified or not?

Dukey

And when visitors come here do you suppose the taxes THEY pay aren't going to an infrastructure they will never "benefit" from?

I suspect you are picking up quite a few "bills" when you travel abroad and some of those "bills" may be helping make your destination an even more desirable place to visit.

Christina

no, I don't think it's a rip off. I don't think a tourist should have the attitude that they want special deals on prices and that a country's tax structure should cater to them. This is so selfish and self-centered, I can't believe it (sorry).

If you don't want to pay a high sales tax on things in supermarkets, don't buy them, nobody is forcing you to. Do you know of any tax in the US that is refunded to tourists or foreigners? I don't, but just wondered why you think that. Maybe you aren't aware, but some places do have very high sales taxes in the US on restaurant meals, hotel rooms, etc., and they are not refunded. I think they are around 10 pct where I live (restaurant meals). They even tax food in the supermarkets in Virginia, which I had never seen before in my life in the US (I don't live there, but work there).

Tourists should contribute something to the places I visit, they cause wear and tear on infrastructures, sites, and even problems, police, etc. There are tourist information centers set up, and those have to be manned and brochures paid for, etc. I know they think it is worth it in tourism revenue to do that, but I still don't think the idea that as a tourist, you should get all kinds of special tax incentives and rules is rubbish. I'm pretty leftie, though, and believe more in societal structure and contributions to it by everyone, not this idea of I'm special and only want to pay what I think I have used. Clearly, you are getting some value out of visiting Europe, also, which are are not valuing in your equation when you resent paying $400 to the tax coffers. I have no idea how you came up with that tab, by the way.

PalQ

20% of $2,000 = $400

then why is there a VAT refund on high-priced items?

PalQ

I see i'm going to get beat up on this - and let me restate my feelings - i don't mind paying a hotel tax for instance or a tourist tax even and i'd gladly pay a reasonable sales tax - 10% or so but to pay 20% or more - this mainly to fund health care, etc. i don't feel like paying too much. I'd like to pay what i owe for services used and not for services not used
- if i get sick in Europe i don't get free health care though maybe i should because i'm paying the VAT - these are benefits i don't get to use.
Well i can see i'm going to be seen as a grinch here but nothing ventured nothing lost. Maybe i'll rethink the VAT thing!

Barbara

If you don't want to pay VAT, don't go to Europe. The actual percentage varies from country to country.

kswl

I agree with you, PalQ. Just traveling to the country---staying in hotels, eating meals, paying for shows, etc.---helps the local economy and businesses so that <i>they</i> can pay taxes. It would be most honest if they just charged a &quot;user tax&quot; when you enter each country. Then you are free to consume as you wish without the VAT.

I always make a donation to the free museums, because my tax dollars are not supporting those institutions. It wouldn't be out of line for them to charge a non-resident fee to enter, IMO.

PalQ

&lt;If you don't want to pay VAT, don't go to Europe&gt;
A great example of intelligent discussion! Please read what i said and intelligently respond and not some blather &lt;if you don't want to pay VAT, don't go to Europe&gt;

missypie

This thread made me research how the Mexican nationals shopping at the outlet malls in San Marcos, Texas can get an instant refund of Texas sales tax. Here is what I found out:

&quot;Texas is the only state bordering Mexico that allows foreign buyers to seek a sales tax rebate while taking possession of the property in this country, by having a customs broker certify that the goods are leaving the country....A visit to an outlet mall in San Marcos provides an example. There, the customs broker provides refunds to foreign buyers so that they do not have to wait seven days to claim their refunds. Buyers assign their receipts to brokers who in turn collect the sales tax refund. Buyers receive their refunds on the same day, with the customs broker collecting from the retailer later.&quot;

This info is from a website that is trying to change the system in Texas. I've always thought that the outlet malls make it way too easy for foreign nationals to get their sales tax money back...they actually have on-site refund offices at the outlet malls. I figure that if it was not so easy, lots of folks would just go home and forget about trying to get the tax back.

Hmmm... I figure, they used our roads, drank our water, used our bathrooms - i.e. got the beneift from some of the things the sales tax pays for. The folks in Europe probably feel the same way about us.

altamiro

&gt; It's always kind of galled me that on nearly every purchase i make in Europe there is a ridiculously high VAT often tacked on and in fact hidden in the purchase price.

It is not hidden - the sum you are paying in VAT is always on your cash receipt.
It is extremely unnerving to arrive a t a shop in USA or Canada, see the prices and then pay a completely different sum because the local taxes are adding 5 % here and 8% there and whatever.

&gt;I'm paying for their liberal welfare systems, medical care, etc. - all things i'm in favor of and wish we had in the US but i don't feel i should pick up the bill for it in Europe.

And exactly this is the reason you get the VAT back when you leave the country. But not on food and such, of course - there is no difference in you, an American, visiting a restaurant and me, an European, visiting the same restaurant. After all, if you, an American, have a car accident or catch a flu while in Europe you will have access to the same health care as me, an European, in the same situation. And if you want to get from Paris to Cologne by train you are using the same infrastructure as me.

altamiro

&gt; - if i get sick in Europe i don't get free health care though maybe i should because i'm paying the VAT - these are benefits i don't get to use.

Me (and most Europeans, except the Brits) neither. Most people pay into some health funds/insurances system (the system differs from country to country) where the money that pays for the health care comes from. If somebody found a way not to pay into those funds s/he wouldn't receive &quot;free&quot; health care as well.

flanneruk

You're entitled to resent whatever you like. But I'm not clear where it gets you. You presumably don't have a vote here, so what you approve of is of absolutely zero significance.

However to describe a tax which is charged on everyone, but rebated only to foreigners, as a &quot;tourist ripoff&quot; is simply preposterous.

And from someone who seems to have earned his living by writing about Continental Europe's lavishly subsidised public transport system - and seems still to use it more than most full-time taxpayers - it's both hypocritical and preposterous.

wombat7

PalQ - that tax is also paying for things such as roads, subsidized public transport, free museums, up keep of parks etc - which you likely are using.

At least in most countries the tax is included in the price - wish THAT would migrate to the west side of the pond.

Also I think in many countries you don't pay VAT on most food in supermarkets.

Dukey

I think that one of the reasons you are &quot;going to get beat up&quot; is because most folks disagree with you. That doesn't mean you have to change you opinion and it doesn't mean you are a &quot;grinch&quot; (interesting term you picked).

So far I think you've gotten just what you should have expected from a post such as this: differing points of view and perhaps a little more 'explanation' as to why things are the way they are and ones anyone might do well to consider.

PalQ

&lt;After all, if you, an American, have a car accident or catch a flu while in Europe you will have access to the same health care as me, an European, in the same situation&gt;

Is this true - then why should seniors buy supplemental medical insurance coverage when American elders go to Europe since our Medicare apparently doesn't cover folks in Europe - you are saying that we will get free medical care same as you? If so i'll gladly pay an even higher VAT. I know not all medical care is free in Europe but often is. Maybe i misconstrued what you meant.

wombat7

Am sure that I read a thread recently on this Board from an American whose child was sick while in the UK and got free emergency medical attention. I was quite surprised

PalQ

I'm ready to retreat and call a truce. Flanneruk - i use railpasses that i pay lots of bucks for - if the rail systems are losing money it's because of the online discounted fares that others, but not me buy. If you believe like many posters here that railpasses are a rip-off for what they actually get you then you'll see i'm subsidizing, with my eurailpass purchase, at an allegedly inflated price, Europeans on their train trips.
The US is the world's largest tourist country and i think we should, as to all the reasons given here to why i should gladly pay VAT, charge at VAT for tourists so that they pay their fair share, which obviously they do not at the usual 6-10% sales tax on goods - noted that hotel taxes can be higher.
This tourist tax could be collected at the airport upon entry - based on what typical tourists pay.
I guess that's my main reason for opposing the steep VAT - again i gladly pay for what i use
So i guess Europeans will think they are getting an unfair free ride when they go to the States with their low sales tax only. Perhaps a voluntary payment of a steeper taxes would salve their aching consciousnesses.

ira

Hi P,

&gt;i don't mind paying a hotel tax for instance or a tourist tax even ...&lt;

You don't? How else would you describe that other than as a rip-off of tourists?

And then you complain that you are paying the same taxes that the locals pay?

&gt;...you are saying that we will get free medical care same as you?

There is no &quot;free&quot; medical care. It's paid for through taxes, insurance companies or at point of service.

From what I have read here, and my own experience, Europeans are much more liberal in providing emergency medical care to tourists than we are in the US.

Has the heat gotten to you today?

PalQ

Wombat7: I used to own a bike touring company and in Europe the times when we had an injury requiring medical attention we went to the local hospital and almost always were never charged a pence - including in the UK. I don't think this is the law but the hospitals often said that they just didn't have any facilities for taking payment so let it slide.
Now if the word gets out we'll have lots of sick flocking to europe for free medical care!

PalQ

Ira: it's a muggy 98 degrees here and obviously, along with me not taking my meds, affected my thinking! (See affected should have been effected.)
I wonder what Rick Steves thinks about VAT?