Vacation Help - Rome/Tuscany

We're a couple a bit older than you and we too [are very active and enjoy "car travel" vacations].

We've been to Italy (and other European countries) many times and not used trains to get about. We like the freedom and spontaneity of having a car. We're not beholden to train timetables, etc.

Therefore, I suggest that you consider an agenda that has you renting a car upon leaving Rome and returning it in Pisa. No trains.

Tuck: There would be no need for the car in Florence or CT. It seems to me it would be just more hassle having to park it.

I think the plan sounds great. The only thing I might do is pick up the car in La Spezia (CT) and not spend the night in Pisa. Other than that: well thought out.

Thanks for your replies. We can't find major car rental chains offering cars in La Spezia. Do you know where we could rent a car in La Spezia and can we have the drop off in Pisa?

Thank you both.

Check out www.autoeurope.com
We've rented from them 4 times in Italy and they offer nice cars and great service.

I don't see the point in spending the night in Pisa after leaving 5t. Leave Pisa until the end when you are departing. If you don't have hotel rooms booked yet, then I would train from Rome to Chuisi, rent a car to see southern Tuscany - Montepulciano, Pienza, etc. (4 nights),drive to Vernazza (2 nights), drive to Florence (drop car at airport - do not drive in to Florence - see threads about tickets), train or bus to Pisa for last night and flight out. This would avoid backtracking.

You mention that you don't want to always be on the rush. This seems like a lot of moving around to me. Thirteen nights in five hotels. That's a lot of unpacking, repacking, traveling, and checking into new hotels. Personally, I would drop one location and spend a little more time enjoying wherever I am.

Jeanne - Of course a car is not "needed" in Florence or the CT - I didn't mean to imply that. And it shouldn't be a hassle to park it.

Byron said, "We want to enjoy the Italian lifestyle and don't always want to be on the rush" and my impression was that there'd be a lot of time and effort involved in rushing to make train connections.

With a car, he'd be able to set his own timetable. With a car, he'd be able to impulsively stop and spend time in a small town and "enjoy the Italian lifestyle". And I don't agree that "it would be better to take the trains in Italy with the exception of Tuscany".

Hi Byron,

I agree that your itinerary looks a bit crowded.

At the moment it looks like this:

Day 1-5 - rome

Day 5-7 - florence

Day 7-9 - CT

DAy 9-10 - Pisa

Day 10 - 14 - tuscany.

the main change I would make is to frop or move the night in Pisa - what there is to see there can be seen on half a day, though it IS worth seeing.

so i would go straight from Florence to the CT, stay there 3 nights [will really only give you 2 days] then pick up your car and spend the day in a leisurely drive down to San G or whereever.

if you have an early flight back out of Pisa, book your last night there, arrive early afternoon, and return your car.

you can pre-book your slot to climb the tower [www.opa-pisa.it]. enjoy the evening there [the campo dei miraccoli is magic lit up at night and most of the tourists have gone by then] and then catch your flight next morning. A cab to the airport from the centre is about 10e.

good luck,

regards, ann

I agree with your point. Picking up the car in Rome would make for an entirely different, and pleasant, trip. We did that not long ago and loved the spontaneity provided by having a car the entire time.

I was simply going by the itinerary Brian gave us. I presume he will spend those days in Florence and CT, not seeing the countryside on the way. In that case, it makes sense to wait and pick up the car later (perhaps in La Spezia).

Everyone gave us a lot to think about. We really appreciate your input.

Our next question is "has anyone stayed at La Mala in Vernazza"?

Second, any good restaurant suggestions in the locations we have mentioned? We like to eat with the Italians. We like to experience real good ethnic food.

Thanks again everyone.

We ate at several good restaurants in Rome. But I'll give you this one because the Italian Archbishop sitting next to us leaned over and whispered, "How did two Americans find this...the best restaurant in Rome?!". Nothing fancy, just very good food and welcoming atmosphere. If you arrive a little early, try for a table in the main room with the brick fired oven.

FIAMETTA: Near Pza Navona. Find the Genio Hotel on a map. Standing in Pza Fiametta, facing the hotel, the restaurant is immediately around the corner on the right.

We just returned yesterday from Rome. The best (and most expensive) meal we had was at La Penna d'Orca a few blocks from the Piazza di Popolo.

I hope to start my trip report in the next day or so and will include some information about the meals we had.

Annhig-- Do you really have to pre- book a spot to climb PISA tower?

Byron1-- With Autoeurope there is a big deductible so if you scratch car it comes out of that. With Kemwell there is a ZERO deductible. As I mentioned in below thread of "Car Rental in Florence" Note- maybe you can ask them to extend the May 15 sale to you or perhaps they have one for Memorial Day? Here is what I replied to in that thread:

Author: ciaodeb
Date: 05/11/2008, 09:16 pm
Both Auto Europe and Kemwell act as booking agents for major car companies.

I just got better deal from Kemwell vs. Auto Europe for our August'08 trip. Halfway through trip we will need a stationwagon for my family and I saved over $300 from Kemwell just for car. I am further saving by picking up in a city (Rome) and returning at Milan's Malpensa airport when we end our trip. Agent said I save on airport taxes on pick up only, not drop off.

Each, however, e-mailed me a voucher so I could lock in price in case it goes up with the weak dollar. Kemwell does not have a deductible as Auto Europe has a $700. With Auto Europe, if you scratch car, they get estimate and take it from the $700 they hold on your credit card.

I also gave the Kemwell agent my hotel address and was given the closest Hertz office for pick up. This agent also e-mailed me the car picture, inside, rear plus she went to Google Map and e-mailed me directions from hotel to office with map!!

Both companies have a deal going on until May 15th where you save a few hundred off car rental.

For your convenience:

Kemwell: 1.800.678.0678

Auto Europe: 1.800.223.5555

Enjoy your trip when it comes!

ciadeb - You usually need to reserve to be able to climb the tower and you might not get the time slot you want.
http://www.opapisa.it/index.php?id=216&L=1&T=2

Here's a link to a very recent trip report with an extensive and enthusiastic description of La Mala.

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threadselect.jsp?fid=2&tid=35116654

Prefacing my comments, Italy is our favorite European country, but we are not enthusastic about their train system.

The distances you mention are not that far for car travel, and you'd save considerable time by not worrying about train schedules. And, besides, our experience was that Italian trains are not that great---dirty and not following a schedule. Disappointment and frustration at the time lost. My opinion is that European trains are best for going from a major city in one country to a major city in another country. Horsing around on a local train (within Italy) is a major drag and a waste of your precious vacation time and energy.

My suggestion would be to pick up a car as you leave Rome, and drive on the A1 autostrada to Florence (4 hours max)for your stay there. Drive from Florence the Cinque Terre, and directly on to Chianti (San Gimignano). Then visit Pisa last, on your way home, dropping off the car at the Pisa airport. Pisa is lovely and can be seen in 3-4 hours, but not worth a whole day/night's stay. My recommendation would be to spend any extra/accumulated time in the Tuscany/Chianti region. Tuscany is great and there is so much to see there, and quite easy to navigate by car. Leave the Italian trains for the Italians.

I'd get off the autostrada ASAP. Visit Orvieto and Civita di Bagnoregio. Then spend a few nights in the Val d'Orcia prior to San Gimignano. Visit Siena, Volterra and Monteriggioni. Florence is likely to be infested with tourists, so your stay there has to be planned carefully. Make a stop in Lucca on the way to the CT.

hi, cioadeb,

yep you really DO haave to pre-book your time to climb the tower, if you want to be able to guarrentee doing it.

of course, if you've got all day, and/or are travelling in december, you could probably wing it. but they get lots of groups, and they only allow 30 people up every 30 minutes or so.

Byron - other posters have suggested picking up your car in Rome. if you are planning Florence as your next stay, please think carefully about this. you do not want or need a car in Florence. if you think you'd like one to eplore the CT, then pick it up when you leave Florence.

trains to Florence from Rome are very easy.

regards, ann

Annhig-- since we do not know our arrival time I think we will wing it. If we cannot get in, seeing it from outside is fascintating enough! What I do not understand is
the closing time according to the site for buying tickets:

Leaning Tower:
8.30 - 20.30- (until 13/6 and from 05/09 until 30/09) 8.30 - 23.00 (from 17/6)

Then I wrote out to make sense of it: (until June 13 and from Sept. 5 until Sept 30) 8:30 – 11PM from June 17

Even putting date as we are familiar with, I could not make sense out of it. That last June 17 makes it un comprehsible. We will be there on 19 August '08, will it close at 20.30, which I think or later?

I agree with the others - drop Cinque Terra and rent a car.

We used Hertz Italy
https://www.hertz.it/rentacar/index.jsp?bsc=t&targetPage=reservationOnHomepage.jsp
best price and many locations.

We rented from the Rome train station. Not much to see in Pisa - except for the tower and duomo which are pricey. Add Siena to your itinerary.

What I do not understand is
the closing time according to the site for buying tickets:

Leaning Tower:
8.30 - 20.30- (until 13/6 and from 05/09 until 30/09) 8.30 - 23.00 (from 17/6)

Then I wrote out to make sense of it: (until June 13 and from Sept. 5 until Sept 30) 8:30 – 11PM from June 17

Even putting date as we are familiar with, I could not make sense out of it. That last June 17 makes it un comprehsible. We will be there on 19 August '08, will it close at 20.30, which I think or later?>>>

hi again deb

what I think it means is that between 17/6 and 5/9, it is open til 11pm. it implies that between 13/6 and 17/6 it is closed.

as you are going to be there on 19/8 that shouldn't be a problem.

to check our joint understanding, I went onto the bit of the web-site where you can buy tickets online, [somewhat obscurely hidden on the link to the tower, rather than on the ticket info page] and though you can't yet buy for your date, I tried 10th July, which falls within the same period. Hey presto, tickets available up to 23.00.

you can only buy tickets 45 days in advance, so for your date, you couldn't book until 4th July.

if you decided not to book in advance, you could try on the day for later on. or as you say, just wing it.

hope this helps,

regards, ann

ps we had a nice and reasonably priced drink at the cafe on the corner opposite the tower. we also had a decent lunch down one of the side-streets near the campo, but Pisa is very hit or miss due to the influx of tour groups.

Ann, thanks for your thoughts on time, looking further into the web site and tidbit for food/drink, which may come in handy!

We will be leaving Val d' Orcia in monring of 19th for Siena/Volterra and anything else interesting before Pisa. Our plan was to see the tower, take the funny pictures with arms, "holding" tower and sleep that night in Lucca. Next day is Florence and off from there so Pisa is only planned for the 19th. I don't know what time we will get to Pisa but I hope it is daytime for photography purposes. I further hope we arrive with no groups, but if so, we will just see it and leave. Plus, "On the spot euro 15" x 4 people to see a slanted floor? Worth that?

I cannot believe nowadays you must book everything in advance! I have seen Pisa twice before, this time bringing kids and never THOUGHT we'd need to book entrance beforehand. Have Uffizi and Last Supper so far!

so ciaodeb,

you want to be the one who explains to the kids why they can't go up the leaning tower?

you're a braver woman than me!

it's quite fun up there - the views are good and you get three stops on the way, with different perspectives on the view below.

how often are you planning on going to Pisa with your children? will they talk incessently on the way home about NOT going up the tower? [well they might, if you're really unlucky]. our kids, then aged 19 & 15, loved it. I'd never have lived it down if they'd not been able to go up to the top.

honestly, on the trips we've taken over the years, I only regretted the things we haven't done, not the ones we did, even if they didn't turn out just as we'd imagined or hoped.

there's no reason why you shouldn't book your slot for, say, 3pm, do the tower and the other monuments [they take about another 30 minutes to an hour], then head for Lucca. it's only about an hour's drive, I think and as you are travelling in July, you don't need to worry about arriving in the dark.

regards, ann

ciaodeb - Did you climb the tower the other times? It was closed for years and has only reopened in the last year or so which is why reservations are necessary.

My husband and I (both in our late 50's) just returned from Italy. I would suggest seeing Rome first, then renting a car and driving to a central location in Tuscany. Rent an apartment or agriturismo for a week. We chose San Gimignano, and made day trips to Florence, Siena, Pisa, Volterra, Montepulciano and Monteriggioni. Then drive or train to Cinque Terre. We spent 2 nights in Levanto, where parking was not a problem, and took the train from there to Riomaggiore, about 20 minutes. End your trip in Pisa for your flight home. Pisa was very interesting, but wouldn't need more than half a day to see.

Remember that the longer you travel, the heavier your luggage will seem! You might get tired of lugging it on and off trains and into hotels.

Reservations are also necessary to control the number of visitors in the tower at all times.

Our family climbed the tower in 1963 before lawyers were invented. There were no barriers at the numerous openings on the stairs or at the top. My poor mother just about expired as my 6-year-old sister climbed the "uphill" stair side and then scampered along the "downhill" stair side. She was sure my sis would slip on the marble and just shoot out one of the openings.

Azrespect I have a quick question. When you stayed in San Gimignano and took a car to all those different locations, were they reasonable driving distances so that you could enjoy those locations? Second, did you drive or train from SG to Cinque Terre area? How did you do that? I heard from someone that Vernazza is too small and that staying in Monterosso (if that's what we decide to do) is a better location. Any more thoughts?

I agree the suitcase in and out is a hassle and that's why we want to really think this trip out.

Thanks everyone in advance for all your good ideas.

Florence, Siena, Pisa, Volterra, Montepulciano and Monteriggioni

All are easily driveable for day trips from San Gimignano (except Pisa, which it sounds like you'll do at the end of the trip). You can do some of them on the same day.

Rome 4 nights
----------
pick up car, drive to
Tuscany 5 nights
----------
Drive to CT (turn in car upon arrival? La Spezia rental ofc)
CT 3 nights
----------
train to
Pisa 1 night
[assumes early flight from Pisa next day]

This presumes you'll do Florence as a day trip from SG. If you want to stay IN Florence, then I would cut SG to 3 or 4 and add a night or 2 in Florence. You could turn in the car upon arriving in FL and train to CT.

NorCal thanks for your comments as well. When you say "drive to CT" - how and where do you park? Thanks.

kybourbon and annhig--

Last times I was there I saw only from outside and now that you mention it has been closed, well, perhaps that is reason I never saw inside. What is in there to see? Since I don't know my arrival time, I must try and get in at door if that is allowed. Kids know already all they want to do is put their hand O U T "holding" tower "up"! When I did this when 14, no one was in my shot, just me holding tower. Now I envision tons of people all around!

Kindly inform what is on each floor besides the view and slanted floor, which our old house has too, are floors furnished? I'll take if from there. THANKS!

In my memory, there's not much of anything on each floor beside the view and the slanted floor.

Climbing the tower is a bit like climbing the Statue of Liberty (when you were still allowed to do so) only less interesting to me. The SOL has an interesting interior structure but no real view. The leaning tower doesn't have much inside aside from the stair, but the leaning experience might be fun and the view from the top is better.

Visiting both these icons is more about saying you've done it than anything else.

Thanks, Ellenem, I just posted asking you a question in the rail thread. I am the 6th response:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Trains within Italy - prebook? First class/high speed?
6 responses; most recent on 05/28/2008, 10:30 pm

To theitaliantraveler --

Thank you so much for the suggestion to rent a car through Hertz Italy. We went to that website and got a much better rate than what we were quoted through the Auto Club and Auto Europe.

For the exact same car and coverage, the rate through Hertz Italy was 79,32 Euro less than the other two companies' rates. That's a big difference!

So a BIG THANK YOU to you!

Byron,

It took less than one hour from San Gimignano to Florence, about 30 minutes to Volterra, about an hour to Siena and we visited Monteriggioni on the way back (it's just off the highway). It was probably 1 1/2 hours to Montepulciano, maybe a bit less. Pisa was the farthest at about 2 hours, but we got lost a few times. That is why I recommended you see it at the end of your trip, since you plan on flying home from there. If you rent a car, I recommend bringing or renting a GPS.

We still had the car in Cinque Terre so we stayed at the Hotel Primavera in Levanto and took the local train to Riomaggiore to begin our hike. The train ran frequently and took about 20 minutes. The cost for both of us was less than 4 euros each way. You can also buy a pass for the Cinque Terre NP and the train for 8 euros, but we didn't find this out until after buying our first train ticket.

We stayed at Il Palagetto in San Gimignano. If you'd like I can send you more information on it. It suited us perfectly.

Whatever you decide I'm sure you'll have a wonderful time. We are still smiling and we've been back to work for a week!

why stay a night in Pisa? add the night to Firenze and you can daytrip via local train to Pisa to tour the town. That will save you a logistical move in and out of a hotel and put more continuity in the trip instead of so much stop start stop start check in check out etc.
you can even train and see Luca and Pisa in a circuit the same day. and be back to Firenze in time for evening dinner. It is only and hour train ride to Pisa and very cheap.

Thanks everyone. We have done some tweaking to our itinerary and would like to hear your thoughts.

Rome 4 nights. High speed train to Florence for 3 nights.

Get a car and travel through Tuscany. Stay 3 nights (thinking San Gimignano but are open for suggestions).

Then drive to Santa Margherita Ligure and stay 3 nights. Train to CT and see the 5 villages (we are not hikers but are very active).
Spend one day seeing Portofino and Camigli.

Now this is where we are having some concern - is it easy to drive from SML to Venice and if so what super highways and how long? Or should we just train to Milan and then fly out from there after 2 nights. We are trying to keep our trip to around 14 nights.

We would love to hear from you guys on your thoughts on this change. Plus any thoughts on hotels in all locations. We are willing to pay around $300 per night.

Everyone, you have been very helpful. Thank you so much.

I think you are spending too much time changing locations and driving. You need to narrow it down a bit. You are training from Rome to Florence, bypassing southern Tuscany on the way(I thought you wanted to see Tuscany) which is in between Rome and Florence. What is it you really want to see/do? Every time you change hotels/locations you will probably lose at least half a day.

Much of the most scenic areas and hilltowns of Tuscany are well to the south of Florence and even south of Siena - the Val d'Orcia.

Were it my trip, I'd proceed northward by car from Rome to see this important part of Tuscany on my way towards Florence. In your scenario, you'd either miss this area or, in seeing it, you'd be doubling back towards Rome.

>> You are training from Rome to Florence, bypassing southern Tuscany on the way <<

kybourbon posted as I was typing - we're making the same point...

TuckH and KyBourbon, you are both right but we aren't sure where you would pick up a car in Rome when we hear it is traffic chaos. What do you think?

Then if we did that, we would want to keep the car to see Tuscany and then SML, Positano and CT. We would then return the car in Florence.

Your thoughts please. You are right. It is backtracking. Where would be a good base location in Tuscany and how many days do you think we'd need in this scenario. We were hoping to stay in one spot and then see the places you mention, Montelpucciano and the Chianti area.

Appreciate your interest in helping out.

If driving out of Rome bothers you (it should), train to Orvieto, see the beautiful town and cathedral, rent the car and off you go. Make a stop in nearby Civita di Bagnoregio.

For a base, I'd choose Montalcino in the Val d'Orcia. You can reach San G, Volterra, Siena, etc within an hour from there. The other option is San G. reaching the Val d'Orcia area in an hour. You could allocate your 4 nights to either spot. I'd return the car in Pisa.

San G. has an advantage over Montalcino in that you could daytrip into Florence (by bus) from there or a nearby town, say Poggibonsi. You could also reach Chianti from there so - San Gimignano it is, for 6 nights (4 for Tuscany and 2 for Florence).

Train to either Orvieto or Chiusi and pick up the rental car. Maybe stop in Montepulciano on your way to spend a night or two in the Pienza/Siena area. Stop at San G on your way to CT/SML area. From there head to Florence, dropping the car in Pisa on the way (if you want to see the tower and it's easier than driving in Florence). From Florence ?

Byron:

Your last post said:
Rome 4 nights
Florence 3
Tuscany 3
SML 3
?

That's 13 nights. But you said you want to keep it to 14 total. If you include Venice, are you changing the above, and then flying out of Milan instead of Pisa?

Jeanne we are not sure. We were thinking of flying out of Milan. But as you can see we are then up to 14 as you need to stay there one night.

You can fly to the U.S. out of Venice. It's not ideal, as the flights are usually very early. Flying out of Milan complicates things. On the other hand, if you really want to add Venice, that's an entirely different itinerary...you could fly into Venice, out of Rome and make changes in the middle of the trip.

But I really like the itinerary you've been working on. About the car, do you feel you need it in SML? If not, you could do:
Rome
Tuscany (car)
Florence (turn in car)
SML
Pisa

Regarding Tuscany: If you'll only have 3 nights, I suggest staying in southern Tuscany and concentrating on the Val D'Orcia. You could stop in San Gim on the way to Florence. Save Chianti for another trip. You'll have plenty to see/do with only 3 days. (Personally, I would take 1 of the Florence nights and make Tuscany 4 nights.)

Jeanne, see initially we were thinking taking the train from Rome to Florence and then when done there we would get a car and Tuscany and drive to SML and get rid of the car at Rapallo and just do the train and bus for that area of Portofino and CT. But then you guys made a good point about Rome and getting the car from there.

You are right - maybe save Venice for next time but I am not sure there will be a next time. We tend to always go to see a different country after our travels and never make it back.

I was thinking at one point as I reviewed the Chianti chats that maybe if we stayed in Chianti we could train or bus into Florence from for instance Castellina and use that as our base for 6 days. But my husband thinks we need to stay in Florence and experience Florence at night etc.

We are getting alot of good feedback from you guys that make us think about the best route.

Thanks again.

If you really are taking the "we may never get back" approach...here's my 2 cents.

Go to Venice! It's beautiful and you'll never see anything else like it. You could fly into Venice, out of Rome:

---Venice 3 nights
---Chianti 6 nights
(or Florence 2/Tuscany 4)
---Rome 4 nights

If you want to combine Chianti/Florence, Castellina and Radda are both nice places to stay. It sounds to me like the better plan might be 2 nights in Florence, then the Val D'Orcia 4 nights. (Again, if you won't return, you'll want to see that area. Bella, bella!).

Byron, allow me to remind you of some of your opening words...

"We want to enjoy the Italian lifestyle and don't always want to be on the rush."

The basic contradiction, as I see it, is that this will be your only visit to Italy and you have just 14 nights to accomplish this.

Italy has SO MANY treasures that it's worthy of more than one visit. If that's not possible, I certainly agree with Jeanne to add Venice but I do not agree about including Chianti at the expense of another location. OTOH, since time is so precious, I'd minimize the time wasted going from point to point. I'd also not go all the way up to Milan for the flight home - stick to your original idea of Pisa.

And - all things considered, I don't think it's important to spend nights in Florence.

The Bottom Line: Base your planning of this trip on the premise that you will indeed return to Italy - perhaps again and again...

Agree. I wouldn't place that much emphasis on spending nights in Florence.

My preference in the above itinerary would be:

Early train from Venice, arrive in Florence by 11am. Leave luggage at Florence station storage area. See David, Ponte Vecchio, other sites.

Pick up car in late afternoon. (I'm assuming this is not winter when sun sets at 5pm) Drive to Montepulciano area for 5 nights. Add a night to Rome, making it total 5 nights.

I just found out another level of complexity. We're flying with BA. The Toronto flights fly into Heathrow. Heathrow flies only to Milan and Rome. Other locations, such as Pisa and Venice fly into Gatwick. So that might help you understand some of our thinking.

What we were now thinking is getting a car at SML after we have completed our three nights and drive to Venice and get rid of the car and stay two nights in Venice and then train to Milan. Does that make sense?

We now think we need to look at 16 days.

Jeanne and Tuck, thank so much. I really want to see the SML and CT area. Everyone seems to talk about the beauty of this area. We were going to either take the train from SML to the CT and/or one way on the ferry to see the view.

I'm confused - is Rome, Tuscany and Florence now out?

There's redundancy in SML and CT - do one or the other.

A day is lost driving to Venice. More time is lost with a train to Milan. The airport - Malpensa - is way outside Milan so you'd have to find your way there. If you're going to leave via Malpensa, turn the car in there and avoid the city of Milan entirely.

Tuck, no we are not dropping those cities. We seem to still be thinking the following:

Fly into Rome from Heathrow. Stay 4 nights.

Then we have two choices at this point. 1) Train to Florence. Stay 3 nights. Then get the car when leaving Florence and do Tuscany for 4 days. In these 4 days make sure we see Pisa, Siena, Val d'Orcia. We know we are back tracking a bit but it doesn't seem like much backtracking. Then drive to SML and drop the car off. Stay 3 nights. See Portofino and CT. We would at this point either train from SML to Milan and stay one night to see a bit of Milan and fly out the next day to Heathrow direct and off to Toronto. That makes 15 days. OR after SML, we thought we'd get a car again and drive to Venice and see some countryside and drop the car off and stay two nights. This makes the trip 16 days (if we fly out of Venice to Gatwick) or 17 days as we would
go to Milan for one night and fly the following day to Heathrow and then to Toronto.

OR based on the suggestions we received from you guys consider the following after Rome:

2) We know you guys say to take the car from Rome or Orvieta. So after the 4 nights in Rome, then do 4 nights in Tuscany (Val d'Orcia, Siena, Pisa) and drive up through San Gimignano and make our way to SML. Turn in the car and stay 3 nights. See Portofino and CT. Then we thought we would get a car again and drive to Florence vs the Milk Run Train in order to get there and spend 3 nights. After that, we have two choice: 1. go by train to Milan and stay one night and fly out of Milan the next day to Heathrow or 2. fly from Florence to Gatwick and shuttle to Heathrow.

I hope this makes sense.

Maybe Venice just needs to be the next trip to Italy and include Lake Como. Maybe we are trying to do too much. We are willing to go up to around 16 days.

Now I know why we start thinking and planning a year in advance to ensure we book things to our liking.

Sorry for any confusion guys.

I like:

a) Your Option 2
b) "fly from Florence to Gatwick and shuttle to Heathrow."
c) "Maybe Venice just needs to be the next trip to Italy and include Lake Como. Maybe we are trying to do too much."

Thanks Tuck! I am sure we will still "tweak" things but it is fun planning.

P.S. The one I like the most is c).

ok Byron, here's the rub - you jsut can't do all you think you want to do and have a relaxing holiday.

can't be done.

do you really think that you might not return to Italy? ever?

if that's the case, i suggest you pick the 3 places you REALLY want to see, and arrange your itinerary around them.

otherwise, plan on the basis that you will come back and do the other bits, and try to make your life as easy as possible.

as Rome and Milan are the easiest airports for you, it makes sense to use them and plan your travel accordingly ie to travel between Milan and rome. leave other places for another time when your airport opportunities amy be different.

Here's what I would do in your position:

fly into Milan - train to CT. stay 4 nights. recover from jetlag, adjust to italy, etc.

from CT, rent car, drive to San Gim, stay 6 nights.

drive to Orvieto, return car, stay one night.

train to Rome, stay 5 nights.

now you will have your "italy legs" and have a beter chance of coping with it.

go home, not needing another holiday.

regards, ann

That's a very good plan Ann.
Well done!

thanks tuck.

now tell me why, when I'm planning for myself, i still try to cram too much in!

regards, ann

If you haven't been confused enough, I'd like to put in my vote for including Venice.

I've been to Italy 3 times; twice we did Rome/Florence/Venice, and the third time it was Florence/Venice after a few days in Paris.

We're returning this summer to do a more relaxing itinerary with a flight into Venice, then a train to Florence to arrive by about 2:00 pm. We'll stay in Florence 3 nights, then drive to San Quirico 3 nights to use as a base for exploring the Val d'Orcia region. From there, we'll drive to Siena and stay 2 nights. I really wanted to stay in San Gimignano, so we added in 1 night there before driving to Venice to relax for 4 nights before flying home.

It's a bit busy, but we also try to cram in more than we should. I'd never miss Venice, though. It is sooo beautiful and we love being on the water in the summer.

I'd skip Milan rather than miss seeing Venice. BTW, we have a very nice flight back to PHL out of Venice: 11:35 a.m. on USAirways.

You're wise to plan a year ahead. It sounds like you'll have a wonderful time planning and traveling!

And skip all the plane transfers in London. Fly to Italy if that is where you want to visit.

Very good ideas from everyone. You will keep me busy reading and planning for the summer.

The reason we are going BA is AirMiles and upgrades. Otherwise, you are correct - fly straight into Rome from Toronto for instance.

I have been reading alot of sites about hotels. We are looking at September and willing to spend around 130 Euros a night. Any suggestions for Rome, Florence, Tuscany area and Santa Marghareti Ligure? And of course, Venice, just in case we do decide on going there.

Our likes are quiet and clean locations. Easy access to the sites in Rome and Florence.

Thanks everyone. You all sound like you have had a great time in Italy.

Byron,
When we were in Florence in 2006 we stayed at Residenza il Villino. It was very close to attractions and very friendly. www.ilvillino.it

Thanks KSD. I had seen your recommendation and it looks nice. The writeup says the rooms are quiet so I assume you don't hear alot of street noise.

I can second the Il Villino in Florence. Lovely rooms, very updated. Sergio and Elizabetta were the most gracious hosts I've ever experienced. It may be slightly over your budget, but you can save in Tuscany.

We stayed at wonderful little agriturismo just out of Pienza. If the 1-bedroom apartment is available, it is only 90eu per night.
I wrote a report here.
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threadselect.jsp?fid=2&tid=35125304

If you search on "agriturismo Pienza" (or San Quirico, or Montalcino) you'll find many trip reports on apartment and farm stays.

Byron: at the Il Villino the courtyard is set way back off the street. I didn't hear a thing while we were there.

The only thing we heard while staying at il Villino were the church bells on Sunday morning.
We had the least expensive room there on the first floor and it was wonderful.

Byron, Il Villino does look nice, but we have enjoyed staying at Relais Cavalcanti, which is even closer to the Uffizi and is not as expensive. We are returning this year. Probably not as upscale, but clean and modern facilities inside a very old building. We thought it was charming!

Thank you everyone on your ideas for Florence. What about Rome? Any recommendations there? And then Tuscany - still to be determined where we stay. Someone told me that we should not stay in the same location in Tuscany for 4 days. We should see a specific area for around two days then move on to another. For instance, somewhere down near Siena and see that area. Then somewhere in Chianti to see that area.

We are still trying to find something nice in Santa Marghareta Ligure.

Thank you all. You are a big help.

As everyone has such good ideas I was just going to read and not put in my 2 cents. However, when the idea of Venice entered the discussion I decided to jump in! You want to experience the Italian "lifestyle" and don't want to rush - but you seem to be moving around too much to really do that.
My husband and I travel to Italy every year and every year we go back to places we've been and add a new place. We stay in the each place for at least 4 -5 days..that is MINIMUM for experiencing the "lifestyle" of the city or village. Venice - skip it if you can't stay more than 5 days - in my opinion that holds for Rome as well. I'm not crazy about Florence but one really cannot get to know either the people or the place in 2 days/nights - if, in fact that is what you want to experience. Italy has so many extraordinary treasures both natural (scenery) and historic (art) and music (opera in Verona and Lucca -Puccini, etc.) Plan to go back as the trip you are planning for this year will be a nice overview and give you a taste of the Italy that you can look forward to experiencing in more depth on another trip.

Autofrance and Sodexa are great sources for cars. You actually lease a new car for a certain number of days but can turn it in early. There are several cars to choose from and I find them better and more economical than the regular rental agencies. An agent met me at Malpensa with my car and I returned it to the airport when I was finished. No hassles and you get roadside assistance and extra insurance.

Thank you everyone. I know now I cannot see all of Italy in just one trip. You all make valid points.

I would still like to hear more suggestions on hotels please.

So far, I am landing on Il Villino in Florence, Hotel Nuova Riviera in SML and Residenze Arco dei Tolomei in Rome. Has anyone got any comments about these three or any other suggestions in the 130-180 euro range? Thanks again.

if you can't find a hotel you can look into vacation apartments. check out www.craigslist.org the also have B&B listings as well. check out www.casaspinelli.com they are good too.

In Rome, you might check with Hotel Parlamento. It's a more central location, equidistant to the Pantheon, Trevi fountain and Sp Steps. It's a more bustling area (lots of upscale shops, so window shopping was fun). I think they may be in your price range.
http://www.hotelparlamento.it/index.html

Ask them for rates on terrace and standard rooms. The desk is manned round the clock. Staff all seemed to be of the same family and were very helpful.

Byron-

Wow...your list is way too long. Venturing to Venice is possible, but it is a long haul from SML. I'd stick with staying in the Rome-Florence-SML-Milan corridor (A1 autostrada), and save Venice for another trip. The roads are good, but sometimes the traffic can be tedious, especially the route from Milan to Venice. From our perspective, Milan doesn't offer a lot to see other than the cathedral...Milan is truly Italy's business center; shopping at the Galleria is interesting, but other than that not particularly rich in tourist spots. Malpensa airport is a hefty hike (or drive) west of Milan; dropping off the car there makes sense to us. Malpensa terminal 1 is a new, very nice and an easy terminal to navigate, and to return your rental car (termed 'car hire return' in English signage). After all, you want to enjoy Italy and not come feeling like you drove a thousand miles! As many have mentioned, Pisa in 3-4 hours is all you need. We've used SML as base camp for the CT and Portofino, which was perfect. After some of our Italian (driving) adventures, this is absolutely the best advice we can offer. And, as other have mentioned, not to be missed is Orvieto. New and more recent discoveries for us were Pienza and Citta di Pieve. Also, think carefully about the number and which 'hill towns' you really wish to visit; as one soured friend once said to us, "Once you've seen one hill town, you've seen 'em all!" Ciao!

Thank ou Norcal. We are sure we need to split the trip a bit so as to really enjoy and not over do it. By the way, where did you stay in SML? How did you do CT? Did you take the train from SML and go to the furthest village and make your way back up?

JeanneB - thanks for another choice in hotel. It looks quite nice.

If you get a quote from the Parlamento, please let me know. It's been a couple of years since we stayed there. They were remodeling and I've wondered if the rates would go up.

Byron1,

I'm not the operson you asked but did stay in SML a few years ago and did day trips to CT and Portofino. Stayed at the Continel Hotel there and liked it. Took the train, as you mention, to the furthest town in CT, then took a combo of boat and feet to get back to the main train stop. It was a great way to see the towns from the water too and was a wonderful day.

Kathy

Thank you Kathy. We figure that boot and walk and train combo is what we need to do.