travel_nana

Going on a two month trip to Europe shortly. Will fly into London stay a couple of days (been there already, but best price for air) and drive into Scotland up the east coast, northwest and back to London. From London take train to Paris. Pickup a car at the end of the three days (been there already, just a few things we wanted to see) and drive to Spain. From Spain will be going to Portugal stopping in various places then back to Madrid to take plane home(also the best price plus miles). This is just the short version. What I would like to know if any of the world travelers out there have any good tips on off the beaten path in any of these countries. Also, on any places that would be a must see. Would appreciate any input.

sheila

Good to get your overview. But I think we need more guidance about what you would like us to help you with.

bilboburgler

Very fine stone collection in Scarborough..... we need to know what you want to see.

Are you sure you want to drive London to Scotland and back? Motorways are pretty dull. Are you going to see Hadrian's wall or the Antonine wall?

Do you plan to see much in Scotland? I recommend Orkney as a special place.

Not sure how many of you there are. Would the train make more sense for one person, plus the chance to chat to fellow travellers?

travel_nana

Places to go in the countries that we might not know about i.e. good restaurants, must see places, places to get good prices for tours, or if the city cards are worth buying. The places we are staying are:York, Edinburgh, Inverness, Skye, Oban, Glasgow, Paris (4days) Bordeaux, San Sebstain, Madrid, Barcelona, Porto, Lisbon, Faro.

janisj

Before anyone can give you useful advice we really need to know more about you/your likes . . . and just as important, how long for each of your legs. For example -- how much time are you allowing for meandering from London up to Scotland, exploring Scotland, and back to London. Two weeks will get you different answers than 5 weeks (and if you plan on 3 weeks or less for the drive up and back you really need to fly or take the train one way).

Michael

You mention "best price" a couple of times. By picking up a car in Paris and dropping it off in Spain, the savings that you made on the flights might be eliminated by cross-border crop-off fees. If going to Spain via the Atlantic side, drop off the French car at the border and take the train to San Sebastian and pick up a car there that you sill drop off in Madrid.

Another savings might be a cheap flight from Scotland to Paris rather than taking the train back to London and then the train to Paris.

You might be interested in my trip report on Scotland; click on my name to find it.

travel_nana

bilbogurgler, there are two of us. we will be staying in Scotland from August 28 to September 14. Thank you for mentioning Hadrian's Wall. Just checked it out and looks like something we would like to see. We are doing the walk up to Arther's Seat. We did have Orkney on our list to see. Thanks again for your information.

Sassafrass

Consider
1. Fly to Barcelona from Paris. Pick up the car there, tour Spain and into Portugal. Fly back to Madrid from Lisbon.
2. Fly to Lisbon from Paris. Tour Portugal, into Spain to Barcelona. Train from Barcelona to Madrid.
3. Fly to Lisbon from Paris. Tour Portugal. Fly to Barcelona. Tour Spain. End in Madrid.

Besides restaurants and things, I think you need to block out your itinerary if you have not done so.

With the distances, I would not drive from Paris to Spain for sure, and would do at least one leg of the journey to Scotland by plane.

London
Drive to Scotland
Fly from Scotland to Paris (if you simply must return to Paris)
Fly from Paris to Portugal or Spain.

Or skip Paris and fly from Scotland to Spain or Portugal.

travel_nana

Sassafrass, We do have our itinerary set with the time in between places and where we will be staying. I don't think hubby ever thought of flying between places like Scotland to Paris. And I think he wanted to drive from Paris to Bordeaux, then to Spain. You really have given me a lot to check out with hubby. Will have to check the air prices and the times to see if any of the itineraries you gave me would work for us. Last time we did a trip like this we did use Ryan Air for some transportation between counties.

bilboburgler

http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...-in-orkney.cfm might be useful

York; are you visiting the abbeys around York or just the city. Fountains is especially good but Rievaulx and Jervaulx are almost as good in their own way. Ripon Minster is near Fountains and worth it for the choir seats alone.

I like Faro but it and Oban don't sit in the same class as your others, any special reasons why included?

"Very fine stone collection in Scarborough" my bad, tongue in cheek, asking to stimulate discussion, I've recently written up the place on Fodors but really not up to your grand visit plans.

If you are driving up to York have a look at the West Yorkshire Sculpture park (especially good, free but has an expensive car park and just off the M1)

You may find Bordeaux a bit of a let down, The Opera may be good and the railway station is to die for but the rest of the place is a little dull. Wines are good but they are only managed from Bordeaux, the stuff is made out in the little towns such as St Emillion, Bergerac, Montbasillac, Puillac etc etc.

I'll be in the Bordeaux area about the same time as you are.

janisj

>>we will be staying in Scotland from August 28 to September 14<<

That doesn't answer the rest of my question . . . How long are you allowing for the drive north and back south again? A week up and a week back? Or a day up and a day back. Or something else? If you are planning quick drives up/back - then driving isn't your best option.

If you want to fit in places like York/North Yorkshire, Hadrians Wall/Northumberland/Alnwick/Bamburgh, and the Borders/Holy Island you'll need about a week for the journey up. And if you want to fit in the Lake District and other regions on your trip south you are talking another several days to a week.

Scotland is a BIG place -- You can't see it all in your two weeks so you have to be pretty selective. For instance if you want to drive up to the Orkneys . . . It is about a 3 days drive from Edinburgh if you stop at any of the many sites enroute.

There is a whole lot more than Arthur's Seat and the Orkney Islands

ESW

You say you are staying in York, Edinburgh, Inverness, Skye, Oban, Glasgow... Are these booked and how many days in each?

You also say you will be staying in Scotland from August 28 to September 14. Does this include days to drive to and from Scotland or are those extra - and if so how much time have you allowed for this?

Are you planning to do Orkney as a (VERY) long day trip from Inverness or are you planning to spend more time there?

A word of warning. Distances in the UK may not look very far on the map but driving times between places will be a lot longer than you might expect, particularly in Scotland.

janisj

Oh -- I didn't even notice this bit >>The places we are staying are:York, Edinburgh, Inverness, Skye, Oban, Glasgow<<

You have time to see some terrific places in Scotland -- but Inverness and (to a lesser extent) Oban are not them.

If you are traveling from London to York to Edinburgh -- you don't need to drive (IF you mean just those cities). 2 hour train to York -- stay the night, then 2.5 hour train to Edinburgh. But IF you want to visit places between York and Edinburgh you mostly would need a car. Driving up from London in either case isn't necessary. Train to York, stay over, collect your rental car, take 3 or 4 days traveling from York to/through the Yorkshire Moors, Hadrian's Wall, Alnwick, Lindesfarne, St Abbs, the Border Abbeys and on to Edinburgh, stay a few days, then start you tour around some of Scotland.

(a car is a liability IN Edinburgh)

Then drop the car and fly from EDI or GLA to Paris.

travel_nana

janisj, some great information thank you. This is how hubby has planned it out. Aug. 24 ariive London stay 4 days) we have some things that we want to see that we didn't see the last time we were here. Pick up car drive to York (2 days in York) and yes he does like driving from place to place so we can see the country side in some areas. Edinburgh (4nights) Inverness (3night) Skye (Portree) (2nights) Oban (3nights & day trips) Glasgow (3nights) Manchester (1 night) back to London for 1 night. We will be doing day trips from some of the stops we are at. Train to Paris (4nights in Paris) again some places we want to go that we didn't see last time we were here. Pick-up car before leaving for Bordeaux (2night) San Sebastain (2nights) Madrid (5nights) Barcelona (3 nights) back to Madrid (1 night) Porto (5 nights) Lisbon (5 nights) Faro 3 nights) Madrid (1 night) to Home. We are going to do some day trips from some of the places. That's what I wanted some input with. With the time frame we are in each place, what to see and where to go while we are there. I know you are going to say too many places and too many stops, but trying to fit in as much as possible for the first time around in Scotland Portugal and Spain (we have been to southern Spain, so doing just northern). And we will return to places we feel we want to see more of. I hope that makes sense to you.

janisj

OK -- a couple of comments re the UK bits:

>>Pick up car drive to York (2 days in York) and yes he does like driving from place to place so we can see the country side in some areas.<<

Fine -- I drive a roadster (see my profile pic) and <B>LOVE</B> driving in the UK. But the drive from London to York is motorway and not at all scenic. Just long. Take the train, enjoy York, then collect a rental car and take a couple of days to drive to Edinburgh. If you simply can't spare the two days, then take the train to Edinburgh, and collect a car as you leave the city.

>>(4nights) Inverness<<

You'll have a car -- so you don't need to stay IN Inverness. It just isn't that great. There are MANY things to fill your time around Inverness, but no need to stay IN the city. Pick a B&B/hotel someplace between Nairn and the Black Isle or a bit south.

>> Glasgow (3nights) Manchester (1 night) back to London for 1 night<<

A car is a complete liability in Glasgow. And may I ask why Manchester? Just because it is about the half way point? It is a neat city but you won't have time to see/do anything so I'd ditch the car as soon as you hit Glasgow and then take the train or fly down to London. This will give you one extra day to play with -- which I'd add to Skye. It is a BIG island w/ very slow driving and 3 night will net you about 2.5 days there.

Mimar

I'm glad to see you're starting in the north and working your way south. That will get you the best weather.

Have you priced car rentals, picking up in Paris, dropping in Spain? A lease car or even a buy/resell option might work better for you. Also allow for more expensive fuel (gas or diesel) and tolls. www.viamichelin.com will help you calculate routes and their cost. Can you drive a standard transmission? They're much cheaper. And, of course, expect some break-in time in the UK for driving on the other side of the road if you're not used to this.

With all this driving will you be taking or renting a car with a GPS/sat nav? That can be a big help -- most of the time.

Cars are really a pain in European cities. They weren't planned for car traffic. Parking is hard to find and expensive. The historic centers are often pedestrian only. Be sure to get parking with any hotel in a city.

Good luck!

Sassafrass

You are going to Madrid three times! That is pretty convoluted.
Why not Fly from France to:
San Sebastian
Drive to Barcelona,
Take the Fast (under three hours,) train to Madrid.
Train or fly to Portugal,(Lisbon) Rent car and tour. Fly home from Lisbon

Or fly from France to:
San Sebastian,
Fly to Lisbon or other city in Portugal
Fly to Madrid
Train to Barcelona, Home from Barcelona

Or, if you must depart from Madrid, fly from France to:
San Sebastian
Fly to Lisbon, Tour Portugal
Fly to Barcelona
Train to Madrid, Home from Madrid

If you think about it, there are three or four more possibilities. Like
fly from France to

Lisbon, tour Portugal
Fly to San Sebastian,
Drive to Barcelona,
Fast train to Madrid, Home from Madrid

At any rate, I would try to eliminate all those one night stops in Madrid and either put all the time in Madrid at the end, or fly home from a different city.

I would also try to take advantage of the fast train between Madrid and Barcelona.

Some distances in Spain are much longer than they look at first. The drive from Barcelona to Madrid is long and boring. There are a few places one can stop, but, having done it once, IMHO, it is not worth that drive at all. Hard to imagine what extreme circumstances could make me to do it again.

sandralist

For what it's worth, I quite liked being in Inverness and did not like some of the twee places that often get recommended for tourists in Scotland. I didn't have a car, so I don't know if having one there and driving in and out for day trips would be a nuisance, but I found the city, especially by the river, pleasant and sophisticated. I shoudl add that part of my family comes from this region, so perhaps I am genetically pre-disposed to like it! But I also generally like small European cities, and Inverness suits me fine.

janisj

I didn't, and don't, recommend twee places . . .

travel_nana

Mimar, Thanks for All the helpful information. 1. Yes we purposely did the north to south because of weather. Our son works for a rental car company in the U.S. that operates in Europe too. So the rental is taken care of with a big discount. We do drive standard transmission, but due to our discount can have the luxury of an automatic.We have parking in every hotel, so we will be leaving the car, and public trans to cities or any place we feel the car is not needed. We also have our own GPS that has Europe programmed in it. We have done this before in other countries.
Again, thanks for all the helpful information and the good luck.