Tuscany, ER and CT Itinerary Advice Needed

I don't have problems with one nighters at all, and I love the Maremma, so yes, I would go there. I also love the area around Buonconvento/S.Giovanni d'Asso as well and I think it is a great choice for a southern Tuscan stay. that said, have you checked how a long the drive is to Deruta and Orvieto from Buonconvento? Maybe it is shorter than I think, but if the majority is on country roads, it makes for slower going.

Do you have an interest in Milan? I quite like the city, but if you are not keen on it, you could head straight to Parma or Bologna by train. (Remember you won't even be able to get into a hotel room until noon at the earliest in Milan. Were it me, I would go there first, probably take a day trip to Ravenna from Bologna, pick up a car to stay in the countryside around Modena/Parma/Reggio'nell Emilia, and then take the car to Bonassola. (While around Parma, you might love seeing Torrechiara, about 15 miles outside of Parma, just don't go on a Monday, when it is closed.)

I'm not a fan of Lucca, so I'll skip commenting -- except to say with a car, I would try to get up into the Garfagnana for a drive one day. Actually, I will comment: I'd skip Lucca for the Maremma! (Probably somewhere around Magliano in Toscana, and I'd see Orvieto as a day trip from there).

If you haven't picked a place to stay in Pisa, I recently thought about staying in Relais Sassetti for a night before flying out of Pisa airport -- then I flew out of a different airport. If you think It looks appealing, make sure to check before booking whether there is parking nearby and if the b&b is in a ZTL zone.

http://www.relaissassetti.it/

Looks to me like you have the makings of a delicious trip.

Sorry -- my post wasn't clear I'm sure.

If you are not keen on Milan, I suggest heading directly to Bologna by train after arriving in Italy. If all you want from Milan is a look at the Duomo and the Last Supper, you can do that by storing your luggage in the Milan train station, seeing the sights, and then taking the 90 minute ride to Bologna if you have that kind of stamina. (I wouldn't, but I point out the possibility for heartier souls.)

I like it--have fun !

The distance from Buonconvento to Orvieto is approximately 50 miles, the same as Magliano to Orvieto. Approx 23 miles from Lucca to Garfagnana.

So, am I right that it's not so easy to get to Bonassola from Bologna? Parma is the better route?

The thought of spending a few hours in Milan after an overnight flight is not too appealing.

I was thinking of staying closer to Massa Marittima if spending one night in the area. There's a slow travel kind of place called Pieve di Caminino www.caminino.com It looks interesting. Or I could be happy staying at Buonconvento another night.

You are right that the better route to Bonassola is from Parma, not Bologna. If you need lunch or a coffee en route from Parma to Bonassola, the tiny town of Pontremoli is wonderful.

If you end up choosing to go that place near Massa Marittima, a visit to the beautiful Abbey of San Galgano might not be much out of your way. Could wait until your are in Tuscany to make up your mind?

I'm not clear as to what conclusion you've drawn about your arrival, but if you end up sleeping in Milan instead of heading straight to Bologna, you might consider Antica Locanda Leonardo. It books up fast. Check Tripadvisor reviews.

http://www.anticalocandaleonardo.com/en/index.htm

Also, another Fodor's poster recently raved about his stay near Pisa in the town of Montopoli, which I'd never heard of, and which looks utterly charming. It looks like maybe a 30-40 minute drive to Pisa airport. He loved this hotel.

http://www.quattrogigli.it/index.htm

One final thought on your itinerary is that you could extend your stay in Bonassola a night and see Lucca as a day trip from there, and have more time to spend in other places, depending on your interests. But many other people love Lucca, and you may have special reasons for wanting to spend time there.

And some off the beaten track places within en route to or around Lucca that have charm, interesting sights and good food are Castelnuovo Magra, Pistoia and Pescia.

Have a great trip!

Thanks zeppole. We won't spend time in Milan at all on this trip. The itinerary is based on places we've never been. So, there are no special reasons for visiting Lucca - we just haven't been there before. I know a lot of people really like it. A day or two should work well.

Is the quickest/easiest way to get from Malpensa to the train station by shuttle? Is this reserved ahead? Should we book train tix for Bologna online in advance? (I remember the Trenitalia website being a nightmare!)

Centralparkgirl, well, the Maremma IS southern Tuscany par excellence, so if you want to get an overview of southern Tuscany, you can hardly leave out the Maremma. But I think it depends on what you want to see around Val d'Orcia. There's so much to see there, you could easily spend an entire week there, that's why it's hard to advise you without knowing more precisely what you want to visit. For example, much as I like Massa Marittima, I wouldn't recommend to go there as long as you haven't seen Monte Oliveto Maggiore. Or Chiusi. Or Sant'Antimo. And particularly if you're planning on seeing Orvieto from there, time might be scarce - if you spend one night in the Maremma, your Val d'Orcia (plus Orvieto) time shrinks to just three days maximum. OTOH again, without the Pitigliano-Sovana-Sorano area, which is part of the Maremma as well, no southern Tuscany trip would be complete, IMO.

As far as Lucca, zeppole, I suggest we agree on one standard text that the first of us posts whenever Lucca is in question, so we don't need to type the same stories in endless variations... along the lines of: zeppole is not a fan of Lucca (...please fill in your reasons...), franco is a Lucca convert, and having considered Lucca Tuscany's most boring town for many years, he now thinks it has grown into one of the nicest places there, lively and elegant, but not touristy, and the sights have always been great anyway (the Romanesque church facades, the piazza built into the ancient Roman theater, the medieval tower house "Torre Guinigi" that's Lucca's landmark now, the city walls...). zeppole doesn't like Lucca's cuisine much and thinks it's on the heavy side (...please fill in your further reasons...), franco thinks it's one of Tuscany's most interesting (the mountain fare from Garfagnana and Lunigiana is easily available in Lucca), and particularly recommends two restaurants, Mecenate and Giulio in Pelleria.

I, too, would do Bologna before Parma if heading to the Cinque Terre afterwards; and I would go by car from start, not just because I'm always going by car but in particular because there's no more reason to have the car near the Cinque Terre than in Bologna - so if you want it there, you'll also want it in Bologna. Driving Milano-Bologna-Parma is not too much hassle, though north Italian autostrade certainly get a lot of traffic.

Deruta is only for pottery buffs; the pottery is (a considerable part of it, at least) fine, the village is underwhelming.

Centralparkgirl,

Yes, there is an airport bus directly to Milan's Central station, no need to reserve ahead. The buses are very frequent, the trip takes an hour. I don't think you need to book train tickets in advance unless you are traveling to Bologna on May 1.


franco (and centralparkgirl!),

To take simple matters first, regarding a car, centralparkgirl is going to Bonassola in May, so I think she might as well drive there, since getting to Bonassola from Parma is easiest by car. There will be parking in Bonassola and I assume she knows to leave her car parked while she visits le Cinque Terre.

HOWEVER, you can save a few bucks Centralparkgirl by dumping the car in La Spezia (or Rapallo) and using the train until you are ready to leave Lucca (pick up another car in Pisa, I guess).

I'm agnostic about when to get the car -- although I think you might as well just take the train to Bologna from Milan, since you'll be jet lagged.

Now -- for Lucca --

I'm unredeemed because having spent a week in Lucca within the past 5 years I still find it Tuscany's most boring town, although it does have a wealth of small architectural detail (which I found myself studying extensively for lack of anything better to do.) Plus it is muggy! It is true it is tony, but rather in the way that Santa Barbara is, or other weekend restaurant destinations are in the US. The tourism is upscale, but it's still touristy to me. It is possible it wins Tuscany's culinary prize because I don't like Tuscan food at its core (I like it on the fringes -- in the Lunigiana and the Maremma in particular).

But Centralparkgirl seems ready to give it a whirl on her own, and if she's bored, there is lots right outside the walls very easily reached by train or car.

Centralparkgirl, if you stay in/near Buonconvento we had a lovely dinner at a small restaurant right in town. If you are interested I can email you a copy of that portion of my trip report.

I'm interested in knowing which restaurant! No secrets!

I also ate well in Buonconvento, but I can't remember the name of the restaurant. I do remember walking through town on a Sunday during lunch and all the restaurants were filled with happy families eating at big tables.)

I have a lot of affection for Buonconvento, and would like to return to see its museums.

Is Buonconvento the name of a town or agriturismo?

A town:

http://www.borghitalia.it/html/borgo_en.php?codice_borgo=142

It's a flat town along a river in an area most beloved for its scenic hilltowns, so very few people stay there unless they are on walking tours. But it is close to the abbey of Monte Oliveto Maggiore, and can be a nice place to have lunch. Very easy parking. Nice flat town when you are tired of climbing hills.

PS: I should add that while only a few people stay inside the town of Buonconvento, the beautiful hills right around Buonconvento have wonderful agriturismi that make for a great farm stay with a car.

I had been looking at some of those this morning and they are beautiful! I love the hilly part of any countryside and the towns on top of them!

Thank you all for the candor and passion with which you write. As I wrote in another thread, even though I've been to Italy at least six times, I suddenly feel like I've seen next to nothing. I have never been to southern Tuscany and it's absolutely deliberate that it's at the end of the trip. I want to savor it, relax in it and explore what I can in the time I have. I may not get into every church, but I want to walk through villages, have leisurely lunches, and just inhale it. Of course, I don't want to miss those special sights - abbeys, wineries, churches, whatever. I would like to see Orvieto, but I could put that on hold for another trip rather than include it and short change myself in Tuscany - especially after Franco's list. The trips of my youth covered too much territory and I don't want to travel that way any more. I'm already torn that two days in each of Parma and Bologna may not be enough.

About the car - I like having a car even if it will sit in Bonassola for a few days - zeppole, yes, that's the plan. Keeping train travel to a minimum is a priority for me because of low back problems. A flare up from schlepping luggage could make me miserable for days.

But I am considering the train from Milan to Bologna. There's one that is 1 hr 5 min which is appealing after the long overseas flight. That would be the only train (other than within CT without luggage) on this trip.

ekc - you can email me at centralparkgirl@gmail.com, but I think everyone would want to read about the restaurant experiences.

Franco, thanks for the restaurant suggestions. What dishes in particular do you like in Lucca and at those restaurants?

On my way from Lucca to Buonconvento, after the stop in Volterra, I hope to have lunch at La Bottega del Trenta in Villa a Sestra. Anyone eat here?

Near Buonconvento, I'm considering staying at Podere Salicotto or La Ripolina. Zeppole thanks for that great link.

http://www.poderesalicotto.com/en/index_en.htm

Near S.Giovanni d'Asso, I'm thinking of La Locanda del Castello.

Anyone stay at one of these? Or have other suggestions?

My suggestion is that you take me with you!

This sounds like a wonderful trip and I congratulate you for getting off the well-trodden path for a bit. I will be most eager to read the report!

You wrote

>>though I've been to Italy at least six times, I suddenly feel like I've seen next to nothing.<<

It won't change after 16 times either! But at least you know it. It's a kind of Socratic wisdom to understand how much more of Italy one hasn't than one has.

Not far from S. Giovanni d'Asso is Lucignano, an astonishingly well preserved and beautiful medieval walled elliptiacal town tourists almost never visit. It has a homey restaurant in a garden inside the town near the chuch called Da Toto. I'm not urging you to make a destination of it -- since your travel plan to inhale is the right one -- but should you be passing by and hungry, you should know it is a very rewarding experience to exprience the town, which remains so lightly touristed.

http://www.abctuscany.com/arezzo/lucignano/index.cfm

ek and Centralparkgirl, well you could actually take the same plane - NYC Fodorites traveling to Italy together!

As far as dishes at those Lucca restaurants, Giulio in Pelleria is doing an absolutely memorable panzanella, the best I had anywhere; plus some really interesting offal dishes (unfortunately, I don't write dining notes like ek does, so don't remember more precisely). As far as Mecenate, I suggest to sample testaroli there, a rare (and extremely difficult to prepare) type of pasta from the Lunigiana mountains, made from either buckwheat or whole wheat flour and first baked in terracotta pan (without any fat - go figure how easy it is to scratch those pancakes from the bottom of the pan!), then cut into large strips and boiled; served with pesto. And of course, Lucca is farro country, and you have to eat farro one place or the other; Mecenate is doing farro pancakes with stinging nettles, for example. And I had a wonderful rabbit there!

Now for a difficult question: one of Italy's best restaurants in my experience is in southern Tuscany; in the middle of nowhere, no chance to combine that with any sightseeing; and for dinner, they're open on Saturdays only, otherwise just for lunch. If you would consider using some of your precious time for such a (time-consuming!) excursion, I'm ready to give one of my best-kept secrets away. Otherwise, I'd rather keep silent cause if you think you don't have time or energy for that, you'd only regret it if I go on with my description.

I think this is terrible that you all won't share your food! This is italy!

Years ago I read about a beach "shack" on the coast in the Maremma. The name was La Pineta.

Any recent reports?

..it is a restaurant, in case that was not clear..

You first, eks. Where did you eat in Buonconvento?

<< ek and Centralparkgirl, well you could actually take the same plane - NYC Fodorites traveling to Italy together!>>

Too funny especially since we once tried unsuccessfully to meet up at a green market in NYC (ek I was there Sat am & thought of you!).

franco - you have to confess!!!! I can't promise that I will go, but let me just say that I didn't choose a location for a B & B in Chianti three yrs ago until I checked out restaurants first. It had to be strategic for driving back after a great dinner and vino. And at the end of this month, I am spending one night in a town in northern Sonoma ONLY because I must return to a certain restaurant for dinner. My husband has said more than once that I can agonize over a menu as if it's my last meal. My response is, 'Hey, you never know.' So, franco, you just have to confess!

Hey franco - I'll be in southern Tuscany for a while, so maybe not such a time-consuming excursion for me...care to let me in on the secret?!

Ok ok, I have no problems to confess - I just didn't want to spoil your southern Tuscany holiday, Centralparkgirl, by adding an excursion that will take more than half a day just for lunch... ek, I've never heard of La Pineta, sorry. "My" place is called La Tagliola, www.latagliola.it, in Bagnoli di Arcidosso. Bagnoli is a tiny hamlet with two restaurants, one at the end of the road, one 50 metres before, on the left: La Tagliola is the one on the left. This is deep in the mountains; but Arcidosso, the larger village nearby, is - though in the mountains - a brutally industrialized village and as ugly as any industrialized village can be; it's on the back of beyond, as I said, and near nothing. (Abbadia S. Salvatore is the only sight that you could visit from there, and it's not among southern Tuscany's greatest.) The distance to Val d'Orcia doesn't seem excessive, but remember that Tuscan secondary roads don't allow swift driving, and you'll need almost one hour and a half to get there, from Buonconvento. I stranded there by chance, and it was probably the best "by chance" find of my life. I had tortelloni di ricotta e spinaci con olio d'oliva e castagne, a heavenly dish, strange as the combination of spinach and chestnuts may seem; grilled rumpsteak from a local breed, probably the best piece of beef I've ever had as far as taste (the texture, as with many old breeds, was less tender than we're used to now - anybody of you know "real" chicken, i.e. old breeds?), with a huge pile of incredibly delicious fried wild mushrooms from the surrounding woods, with many but not exclusively porcini; and finally, a panna cotta that involved frutti di bosco (a cream? a mousse? don't remember precisely), which was heavenly, as well, and I'm usually NOT a fan of panna cotta.
Ok - it's you who wanted me to do this!!! Now try and include that with your already-very-busy Val d'Orcia stay!!

Well, if one were to head south from Buonconvento, one could stop in the morning in Bagno Vignoni and San Quirico d'Orcia and still make in time for lunch at Franco's find.

Were it me, I would return via the abbey San Galgano near Chuisidino, perhaps stopping at a winery enroute (lots around here). From the restaurant to the Abbey is about 2 hours. From the abbey to Buonconvento is about an hour.

But you'd essentially be driving through the wild Maremma.

yummmmmmmm! need I say more?

In alternative to zeppole's excellent suggestion, La Tagliola would make a perfect en-route stop if you venture into the Sovana-Pitigliano area. If so, take in Roccalbegna, and climb up to the castle ruins (just 10 minutes, but really steep). You'll only know why you've stopped here as soon as you've done the climb: a street grid much like Manhattan's... well, almost: just SOMEWHAT smaller (the entire village is about 500 x 500 metres) - and from the 13th century. Btw, the Romanesque church there isn't bad either; be sure to have a look at the portal, and smile.

Your meal is still on the menu, franco...sounds very tempting!

I just came across this place and I thought I'd include it in this thread as the kind of place I would stay in during a trip in the Maremma. If you wanted one night in the Maremma, it might be fun to pack up your stuff, head down to Franco's lunch restaurant, make your way back up to San Galgano, and then try this place for the night. It's a Slow Food pick and the kind of place I usually adore. (cheap too.)

http://www.locandadibeppeatocchi.it/index.html

I want to know about the restaurant in Northern Sonoma county...

bookmarking

zeppole - did you notice that check in is 6 pm? The place looks lovely. How many hours (days - lol) do you think it would it take from franco's restaurant?

macdogmom - the restaurant is Cyrus in the town of Healdsburg. It was the best meal of my life and I don't say that lightly. I mention it in my TR on my first visit to Ca.

I didn't notice the check-in time but it's not unusual for places I stay in. The people who run them need to be out shopping and such during the day. It's really an albergo ristorante, not a farm, so the owners show up in time to cook and let you in!

It would take under two hours to get there from Franco's restaurant, and like I said, I would stop at San Galgano en route. The site does not take long to see, but it is beautiful

http://www.ruraljourney.com/italy_travelguide/toscana/monastero-san-galgano/

http://people.ucalgary.ca/~tstronds/nostalghia.com/ThePhotos/Terrance/nostalghia1.jpg

I usually don't keep track of destination restaurants in Italy, but there are a few in Tuscany, but I'm not sure if they are convenient to your touring. Here is one that is operated by a Canadian cookbook writer:

http://www.lapetraia.com/index.php

and two Michelin stars

http://www.arnolfo.com/?page_id=133

The restuarant at Poggio Antico in Montalcino used to have a Michelin star, but I think it's down to 3 forks

http://www.poggioantico.com/english/ristorante_e.htm

I've not eaten at these places.

Alternatively, if you go south to Pitigliano, I have another accomodation for you, with the advantage that I've stayed there in person: a tastefully furnished and very nice agriturismo in a REALLY peaceful location (don't be nervous when you drive there, just follow the signs, it's excellently signposted and yes, at the very end of the "road", shortly before you imagine you and your car are going to disappear into the next road hole, there it is. Their olive oil and red wine (they just have one kind of it) are good (if rustic), too, and they're very nice people - with a website, surprisingly: www.melograno.to
That's the Maremma at its very best.

That place looks lovely! With a restaurant too. And horses. The recipe page is certainly appealing.

A restaurant, only in high season, unfortunately. That's why I wasn't able to eat there (I went in late spring). But I agree, the recipe page (which is new to their website) is appealing. Next winter (ooohh, winter! what was it like?) I have to try the wild boar with orange.

I'm thinking I can make their SPAGHETTI ALLA CHITARRA CON PESTO ALLE OLIVE with what I've got in the cupboard -- which would save me from going out to shop tomorrow!

All I'd need to do is boil water.



I once had a wild boar lasagne in the Maremma that had the thinnest sheets of lasagne I have ever seen. It was astonishing. (It was in a private home or I'd give you the address.)

Since I had rigatoni con pesto di olive (verdi!) today, I will skip that tomorrow. But I, too, took note of that recipe - interesting thanks to the ricotta that goes into the preparation, which could be a nice balance for all that salt (salamoia, capperi, acciughe...).

Funny, but the ricotta is the only thing I *don't* have and I was wondering if I'd miss that one spoonful. (I've gone native here in Liguria anyway, where no amount of salt is too much. We need it! You really sweat up these staircases going out to buy ricotta!)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2639/3951280079_ed28e77a21.jpg

Z and F you cause me to digress. Melograno rang a bell and then I remembered that I wanted to eat in a byob restaurant by the same name in Philadelphia July 4th weekend. It was highly recommended and I was very disappointed that they decided to close that day. We ended up going to another highly recommended trattoria called Amis. I won't say the pasta was astonishing, but at the time, I called it perfect. It was strozzaprete alla vongole. When you taste something with vivid fresh flavors cooked to perfection, it can be wondrous.

Franco, thank you for suggesting Il Melograno. I have been looking for a place to stay in the area and it fits my needs. I love the area and look forward to a future 2 week stay.

One of my favorite places to stop for wine (or beer- all local) and a light meal or snack is Cantina L'Ottava Rima in Sorano. It is one of the most beautiful and unique places I have visited in Italy. I think it is only open Friday night and throughout the weekend.

http://www.cantinaottavarima.it/home.html

zeppole, with the heat, I think not even I would go out for that one spoonful of ricotta, admittedly. Let us know how it came out without ricotta, and there will still be gorgeous tomatoes available when the temperature will be more tolerable, for a 2nd try with ricotta.

I'm glad that Melograno is obviously making everybody happy, it's a special place indeed. zoecat, that place looks nice indeed! Nice website, too, though they don't give their opening hours there...

centralparkgirl,

I don't know if I've previously suggested this to you, but with your interest in tracking down the tastiest food, I urge to also invest in David Downie's Food and Wine of the Italian Riviera and Genoa. It's published by little book press. You can get it from Amazon if your bookstore doesn't have it. It has fantastic detail and restaurant recommendations for all the le Cinque Terre towns and Levanto -- and I do hope you will have time to get to Chiavari and Sestri Levante to eat (and Rapallo for a gelato at Frigidarium!) But you really want to get the best pesto while you are here.


Franco (and zoecat), digressing further

I once stayed in a stylish but very affordable B&B called Il Melograno in Moncalvo (Piemonte)

http://www.lalocandadelmelograno.it/pages/locanda.htm

zeppole - I actually saw the book yesterday in Barnes & Noble. I'll check it out. I have Fred Plotkin's book, but it doesn't concentrate enough on any one place. Do you know of any food books about Tuscany?

There are so many but I'm not the person to recommend any because I don't much fancy Tuscan cooking.

I don't know if you've previously followed Plotkin's recommendations when eating in Italy, but if you found them valuable, he once collaborated Lorenza De'Medici on a book about Italian eating -- and I'm guessing he wouldn't risk his reputation unless he admired her knowledge and cooking.

She has written (without Plotkin) two books of Tuscan food culture, both of which Beautiful have lots of pictures which might help you set an itinerary:

http://www.amazon.com/My-Tuscany-Recipes-Cuisine-Landscape/dp/1844831744/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1279381342&sr=1-12

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0002550326/${0}

Now, zeppole, perhaps this thread is where we should enter into that discussion of Tuscan cuisine that we are planning on for some time already... Lorenza De'Medici's books are famous, though I have to admit I've never looked at them. Nor have I at the ones I'm going to recommend now, but I can confirm that their author, Fabio Picchi, is one of the top masters of Tuscan cooking, so they might be worth checking out: http://www.edizioniteatrodelsalecibreofirenze.it/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=43&Itemid=37; the second book is brand-new.
Picchi is the chef-owner of Cibreo and Cibreino in Florence, and not just an apostle of authentic Tuscan cooking: he's actually the pope! The problem with Tuscan cuisine is that it's difficult to trace, nowadays; Tuscany used to be a poor region for centuries (after the times of the Medici, until well after WWII), so when it became a mainstay of the international tourism circuit, the typical "poor" dishes (cucina povera) were quite incompatible with the new-born glamour. So Tuscany did what Italy is normally reluctant to: it embraced inventive cooking, to the degree of almost completely obliterating traditional Tuscan fare. But while inventive chefs are responsible, in many countries, for the best and most interesting that the cuisine has to offer (particularly in countries where traditional cooking isn't much to write home about - think Germany, think Great Britain; but of course, not just - think France!), it's different in Italy: excellence means tradition there, and inventive chefs and their creations... oh well! I know many of you could post several excellent inventive Italian restaurants now, but please don't: I know some, too. But as a rule, it's best to avoid creative experiments in Italian gastronomy. In a country where traditional dishes are already so perfect that it's almost impossible to improve them, the most part of inventive cooking goes to prove just that: that what is almost impossible in general has been totally impossible for the particular chef. That's why I do understand, zeppole, that you are less than impressed with contemporary Tuscan cooking - but are you sure that it's really fault of Tuscan cuisine rather than fault of the sad fact that Tuscan cuisine has all but disappeared? Internationally, if a restaurant is being advertised as "Tuscan", you can bet that its offerings will be a chef's fantasies, or, as one of my favourite Italian recipe books would put it, "acrobazie, artifizi, lontani davvero dalla tradizione" (acrobatics, artifices, far indeed from tradition).
It's easy to check: have a look at their primi piatti! If pasta abounds, stay away from the restaurant, or put the book back on the shelf. Traditional Tuscan fare includes pasta just rarely: around Siena, they had pici (thick handmade spaghetti); in the north-western mountains, testaroli (see above); in Pisa, handcut pasta squares called brachette. Period! And even there, they didn't have pasta every day like in most other Italian regions. But Tuscany wasn't polenta country, either (like the Alpine regions in northern Italy), nor risotto country like Lombardia. Tuscany's primi used to be soups: unusually thick soups, in fact more mash than soup. And (for the secondi, above all) plenty of offals: poor man's country.
For Cibreo/Cibreino, I can vouch: Fabio Picchi never prepares any pasta dish, just traditional Tuscan primi (yet with an inventive touch, here and there: he is one of those rare masters who actually can concoct some improvements). Go figure! NO pasta since 1979, in a city brimming with foreign tourists for whom pasta is the essence of the Italian way of life. Hats off!

This book offers some interesting details about the food of the region:


http://www.amazon.com/Culinary-Traveller-Tuscany-Beth-Elon/dp/1892145367

I wonder if we should resurrect our Italian cuisine thread, Franco?? My comments are brief this week as I do not have full internet service at my present location, but that will change after a few days..

http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/ekscrunchy-koreaprincess-and-franco-invite-you-to-join-them-expanding-on-the-secrets-of-italian-cuis.cfm

Yes, perhaps we should resurrect it. (ek, please check your Cilento thread when you can.)

A little ps about Deruta. Yes, it is a pottery town but it also has an interesting pottery museum. Go to the upper town first. DH and I enjoyed our day trip there-bussed from Perugia and walked up to the upper town. We were there in March and many sweet galleries were still closed for the season.

thanks Zeppole and franco for giving us all these great links.

by chance i am cooking lamb tomorrow so I will try the melograno recipe - once I've translated it, that is!

Yes, I'm sure that explains it. I am extremely fond of testaroli (which Ligurians of course claim as their own), less fond of ribbolita and zuppa di farro (although Buca di Sant"Antonio sets the standard.) A few wonderful mash "primi" I've had in Tuscany have been incredibly simple and good -- tomato pulp muddled with an egg and potatoes (essentially mashed) thinned with milk and flavored with rosemary.

I of course like the fishy food of the Maremma and Livorno.

But once you get into animal fat, the Tuscans really overdo it!

By the way, Franco, you can buy online an excellient artisan testatroli, sotto vuoto, made by Frantoio Lucchi e Guastalli

http://www.dalleterre.com/SelectCat.do;jsessionid=0601839B8560895D81A24B3D0A2F4416?catId=32&prodsFound=17&categoria=Pasta%20fresca%20artigianale

(The above post was in response to franco's)

zeppole, that tomato-egg-milk-potato primo sounds de-li-ci-ous. Do you remember where you got it? I'm really grateful for the testaroli link, cause much as I love to eat them, I readily admit that making them myself is much less fun. How have your spaghetti con pesto alle olive been?

Franco and Zeppole - thanks for all the sites; I will enjoy picking around. I have eaten at Cibreo every time I'm in Florence and it is truly a wonderful experience. There was - don't know if it's still there - another quite marvelous place in Oltrarno, just on the river, half a block from Ponte alla Carraia, called Becco Fino that was superb, as well. When I've stayed in Pozzo, I have visited Lucignano for dinner many times. It's a small functioning Italian hilltown and well worth the short drive from the valley.

Zeppole - completely off topic, but I'm very curious, and a bit envious, too: there have been a few other posts regarding Americans wanting to move to Italy, but needing work to do so, and that seems to be nearly impossible. If you feel like sharing, how did you do it?

Sandra

I can roll my answers to everybody into one post!

The "primi" were from Lucignano -- the restaurant Da Toto -- but they are two separate primi -- one the tomato with egg (it has some onion in it, for sweetness) that has a great consistency, and the other is simply a potato-milk puree, flavored with rosemary. I'm still in the process of trying to replicate them with guesswork. Maybe sandra3120 has had other delicious primi in Lucignano she would share. (Sandra, I wouldn't dream of sharing my ex-pat tale on Fodor's! It's perfectly legal but Franco would only best it with his -- the more inspiring story, I've doubt in the world!) I think Lucignano has knock-out architecture and a great ambience.

As for my spaghetti, Franco, it became lasagne (so much faster to boil) and since I can buy such exquisite olive paste from artisinal producers around here, I cheated. What was really good was the pile of fresh string beans a neighbor gave me, just dressed with olive oil and salt. Try those testaroli! They are very good. Lucchi & Guastalli are premium olive oil producers from near Castelnuovo Magra.

Zeppole - oh, pooh! And here I harboured hopes of an insider's view of how to get from here to there and actually be able to stay...

I agree with you entirely on Lucignano - it's a tiny wondrous place. I think we ate once in Il Goccino, once in Toto, and twice in La Tavernetta, I think - it's just inside the entrance to the town coming from Pozzo, across the S73 - straight shot more or less - and has three floors, the top one of which has a stained glass ceiling. The one I remember is from Da Toto, a chicken cooked with juniper that was wonderful. I do remember crostini from one of the others, which one in particular I don't remember, which were just perfect for a small supper after a long day and the presentation which was remarkable. We'd met a food writer also staying at Villa Fontelunga and he wanted particularly to see whatever place it was and to take photos of the presentation - sad that I don't remember more of that little jaunt and it was only 5 years ago. Last time I was at Cibreo, a year ago, I had a marvelous sausage and canellini dish which I wouldn't mind in the last having again - very soon. I'd like to spend my birthday in Florence this year, which is a day after the initial poster's coincidentally.

Franco - I had no idea you also had moved to Italy. Since Zeppole won't share how she did it, will you? That was typed while chuckling, by the way!

Sandra

Sandra, I had no idea of having moved to Italy, either. Plus I'm your model anonymous poster, sorry.
However, I don't think it's so extremely difficult to find work in Italy, provided you seriously speak Italian. When browsing Italian websites, don't you share the impression that they could use some good Italian-English (or Italian-anything, for that matter) translators? Another question is whether you'd earn enough to make a living; Italian wages are notoriously low, and if you crave a house or an apartment, you'd better inherit it. But if you come to Italy with a capital, and just need to earn the current expenses, it shouldn't be too difficult. Competent tourist guides with foreign language skills, of course, are in high demand in many Italian places, so what we're doing here (advising tourists going to Italy) could already earn you money when living there.
Btw, who noticed? As long as Centralparkgirl doesn't come back, I guess we're capable of carrying this thread all over the Apennine peninsula, and twice around the world; and in the end, back to Tuscany, I'm almost sure. When the cat's away, the mice will play.

lol franco, perhaps she's only having a day off [her last post was on July 17th].

Ann, I have no doubt she's coming back - she is a regular poster! My point was just what we're doing to her thread on her day off...

Actually, franco, I'd like to take it over the Dolomiti into Friuli-Venezia. I'm thinking of going there in a few weeks.

OMG - I went to Fire Island for an overnight and you all went wild!!! I am so glad to be back (and be in air conditioning!).

Very interesting reading. Franco, are you saying that if you go to a restaurant in Tuscany and there is a lot of varied pasta on the menu, it isn't authentic Tuscan cooking? When we were in Chianti 3 years a go, we ate pasta daily. It was delicious, but I never really stopped to consider whether it was really Tuscan. I'm going to check on the name of a restaurant we went to that delicious ravioli with butternut type squash in it.

Ummm, I have a great restaurant tip for you... but I'm really hesitating to spoil Centralparkgirl's thread with dozens of very interesting off-topic discussions. Don't you want to open a separate Friuli thread?

zeppole - I've never used Plotkin's books or advice before.

Oh spoil away. We're all enjoying this.

Sorry, my posting was of course meant as an answer to zeppole. I only expected you back tomorrow, Centralparkgirl. Yes, that's what I'm saying: you had no authentic Tuscan fare, there. In the case of ravioli (actually, tortelli) di zucca, it's more than obvious: this is the signature dish of Mantova, in eastern Lombardia.

Ok, on invitation by this thread's host, I'm giving up my reluctance to go off-topic. zeppole, the second best steak I ever had (after the south Tuscan one that I've recommended on this very thread) is to be had in an unassuming place, a hotel osteria (yes actually: that hotel has a restaurant, plus this osteria) in Gemona del Friuli, the worst hit of all Friulian towns in the 1970s earthquake - of course, the town is more than ugly today, since every single building is modern. But that osteria is simply amazing; the meat, once more, is from a local breed, and dry-aged for six weeks. They're doing nothing else than steak (various cuts), some antipasti (sottoli - sottaceti), contorni and few home-made cakes at the osteria, but I've rarely experienced any restaurant where every single ingredient was of such a terrific quality. I'm normally not an advocate of the let-ingredients-display-their-natural-taste philosophy, but if it's executed THAT brilliantly, I bow to it. The osteria is called La Merinde, at Hotel Willy, www.hotelwilly.com. I have yet to try the hotel's restaurant, as well.

centralparkgirl,

I hope you discover a reliable guide in Plotkin when it comes to taste buds and values in dining. I feel certain you can trust his information about the history of food in Italy, and which dishes belong to which region. I agree with Franco about no pasta and almost no meat in true Tuscan cooking. (Some day the secret will come about how many regions of Italy don't eat as much pasta as Americans do.

Franco,

By popular demand, let's hear that great restaurant recommendation here!

We were cross-posting at the same time! I look it up. I haven't picked an itinerary yet. Have you any cultural recommendations? My provisional plan is to spend a few days in Trento, take a scenic route through the Dolomiti to Friuli-Venezia, then back through Vicenza, Cremona, then over the hill through Bobbio home.

Cultural recommendations, of course. (Though also food is culture!) In the Friuli mountains, I never found anything cultural to write home about; culture, IME, begins where the Friuli mountains end. Since I suppose you are informed about most places, I'm just listing names; please advise if you want me to detail on any particular place: Cividale del Friuli, Grado and Aquileia are Friuli's most important sights IMO; also worth your time are Udine, Trieste, the Villa Manin near Codroipo; and perhaps Spilimbergo. I suggest skipping Pordenone; while the church and one street are quite pretty, the rest of this town is a true nightmare of brutal & bad modern architecture. But I have one tip that you won't easily find in guidebooks: Torviscosa! Today a sleepy village near Grado, this was one of Italy's model fashist foundations: a chemical plant, plus a town for the workers, with a theatre, a sports center, one central restaurant, a piazza del comune and so on. Nothing has changed ever since. Primarily of historical interest, of course, but also as far as architecture, it's definitely worth seeing (I'm sure you know that Italian fascism produced some really good architecture, too, besides lots of that dull dominance-show-off architecture that was typical of other countries' fascims). Torviscosa was crumbling when I visited several years ago; hopefully, someone will have invested in renovation in the meantime. Look here for some pictures: http://www.flickr.com/photos/paolovalde/sets/72157601874061072/

Thanks, Franco! I'm especially appreciative of the tip about Torviscosa. Some of the best architecture in Genoa is fascist, and I do make a point of seeing it.

Pordenone has a silent film festival which I hope someday to attend, but it's in October this year. I've yet to work up enthusiasm for Aquileia, but I'll read more. I think I'll include Cividale dei Fruili for its food and wine culture alone. Udine and Trieste are really the point of the trip (and I look up the villa!)

No interest in Trento? I need a rest stop before I drive through the Dolomiti.

Believe it or not, I've never been to Trento. A close friend says it's worth stopping there. You know about the Tempietto Longobardo in Cividale, don't you? And the ancient floor mosaics in the Aquileia cathedral ARE remarkable (two layers of them, one the actual floor, another - obviously older one - in an excavation ambience below the church, entrance to the left). Btw, if you happen to be interested in grappa, that's another reason to visit Aquileia: Distilleria Aquileia is an excellent producer, the appalling outer appearance of their degustation premises notwithstanding (look for a mock-alpine hut inscribed "Schnapsbude", in German!). Be sure to try their oak aged grappa called La Centenara.

Believe it or not, I can't drink grappa! It gives me a terrible headache, very quickly, and I've yet to taste any worth the punishment. But thanks for the recommendation. Maybe I'll ask my travel companion for a miniscule sip.

A highly-cultured Spanish friend of mine urges me constantly to go to Trento (although brining a car there doesn't look like much fun). I will take a closer look at Aquileia, because I do love mosaics.

By saying I'd be going to Cividale for its food and wine culture alone I didn't mean to imply it didn't have other important attractions. I'm wondering how much time I should give to Vicenza -- but I'm thinking of going completely without reservations for this trip.

Those pictures of Torviscosa you linked to are great. You might like seeing this (it's got a soundtrack, so be careful)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okch2YRb-as

Centralparkgirl,

We are giving back your thread! This is egregioous! (Franco, I'll figure out Vicenza on my own!)


BACK TO E-R, Tuscany and CT

Wait a moment! Did you notice this link given on that youtube page (where the pictures are interesting, but the red captions are illegible for me)? http://torviscosa.blogspot.com/
And in Vicenza, I would stay two nights, so that you have a full day in between - that's what you need. Don't miss Villa Valmarana dei Nani, neighbouring Villa Rotonda, and check (restricted) opening hours ahead!
Ok, now I'm ready to be silent, too. Centralparkgirl, thanks for your patience!

Interesting!

Rats, Franco - this is what I clearly misread from Zeppole's post:

(Sandra, I wouldn't dream of sharing my ex-pat tale on Fodor's! It's perfectly legal but Franco would only best it with his -- the more inspiring story, I've doubt in the world!)

And then went on to assume you were an ex-pat. And I guess we have kidnapped Centralparkgirl's thread in the course of a few days and I apologize, too for having contributed to that.

I second Franco's recommendation to Zeppole for spending at least a few days in Vicenza but then again I deeply appreciate Palladian architecture so I'm partial.

Sandra

Sandra - quite all right if you explain what lurks within the parentheses above. I'm totally confused. Explain please!

CPG - it is a copied portion of one of Zeppole's answers to me regarding how she came to move to Italy from the US, which I completely misunderstood apparently: I thought she meant that Franco also was an ex-pat, but apparently he is not from his answer to me just above.

You see - it wasn't even worth the explanation! Sorry again.

Sandra

Ok, after all this wonderful off-topic posting, I'm showing active repentance and go back to Tuscany. Centralparkgirl, you're going to have one night in Pisa, too, and you'll need a meal there... so here comes another restaurant recommendation! THE place to eat traditional Pisan fare is Trattoria S. Omobono, on Piazza S. Omobono, 6 (whether the trattoria has been named after the piazza or the piazza after the trattoria is still not clear - just kidding), tel. 050-540847, no website, reservations strongly recommended. They have that gorgeous Pisan pasta dish on their menu (remember what I said above: Pisa has a traditional pasta type called brachette), brachette alla renaiola, i.e. with a puree of cime di rapa (broccoli rabe) and smoked fish. A memorable dish indeed! Pisa is also quite strong on baccalà (salted cod), so that's a possible secondo there.

If you still haven't picked a place to stay in Pisa, I just came across the fascinating information that the historic Caffe dell'Ussero in the Palazzo Agostino along the Arno lets out rooms above the caffe.

http://www.ussero.com/inglese/default.php

The family also has a villa accommodation in San Giuliano Terme, a stone's throw from Pisa

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g644283-d564646-r20316724-Relais_dell_Ussero-San_Giuliano_Terme_Tuscany.html#CHECK_RATES_CONT

http://www.ussero.com/corliano/inglese/photo.php

http://www.ussero.com/corliano/inglese/default.php

PS, Centralparkgirl, if you book the rooms above the Caffe dell'Ussero, check in time is 6pm (but I bet they let you leave your bags behind the bar if you want to go off and tour the monuments).

zeppole - this looks great. I haven't formalized anything yet. I'm leaving for California on Tuesday and I've totally neglected that trip (except for hotels and restaurants, of course!).

I'm an ex-pat too. Born and raised in Brooklyn, but living in Manhattan for the last 30 years. Where I come from, it's the same thing! You can take the girl out of B'klyn, but...........

I can't remember if I was born in B'klyn or Queens, but I spent a huge chunk of my life in California. But I have almost never stayed in hotels there except in the desert. Hope the weather is cool -- or warm if you are headed to SF!

"The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco." ~(falsely attributed to Mark Twain)

Actually, it's pretty darn nice here right now Centralparkgirl. Hope you have a great time.

Thanks sap.

We're going to SF and Sonoma. Zeppole, I'm looking forward to cool weather after the heat and humidity that we've been suffering with here. It's been like a sauna! You must find out where you were born - very, very important!

Really? I don't think so.

It was meant purely out of your own curiosity - nothing more.

I think I have a general idea. I just can't remember when my parents moved from B'klyn to Queens, and whether I was born yet. I could ask my mother. No doubt she remembers! Have a nice time in SF. I hear the museums there have gotten better since when I lived there.

This is my 4th trip in two years, but I had never been to SF before that. So, I'm not familiar with museums there before then. This is a very short trip (really to see my son), but I will get to the De Young to see the Birth of Impressionism: Masterpieces of the Musee d'Orsay exhibit and a companion exhibit at the Legion of Honor, Impressionist Paris: City of Light. I'm looking forward to it. SF is such a great city to visit!

Centralparkgirl: Please let us know what you think about the museum exhibits. My 20-year-old daughter and her boyfriend just went to the De Young's Impressionism exhibit, but they were not terribly. . . um . . . "impressed," even though she's a big art fan. It would be nice to get an adult perspective, though. I was thinking about going, but may hold off as I'll be at the d'Orsay next June when they are all back home in Paris following the renovation.

Sorry to hijack the Italy thread with SF stuff, but at least you're the OP!

sap - Sure. I'll be back on 8/2 and hopefully write a TR. I wish I could see the next special exhibit at the De Young - I think on post-impressionism, but I don't expect to get back then. Do you know that if you go to the De Young or the Legion of Honor, you get free admission to the other on the same day? That's what we're doing, but I would probably never go to two on the same day at home......the energy of a tourist!

Make sure when you go to the DeYoung you go up the tower for a amazing 360 degree view of the city. Really wonderful.

Well, Franco, I was in the neighborhood, heading from montalcino to cinque terre, and was so intrigued by your review of La Tagliola that we just had to. So we did. It was a 40 min detour for us, and we almost didn’t find it. For those who venture to it in the future (and you should!), you first go to the town of Arcidosso, and then follow the signs at the roundabout for il bagnoli. About a 2 min drive later, you will find yourself in the small hamlet of il bagnoli. Just look for the resto, it’s hard to miss given the small size of the town. We walked in and were immediately enchanted by the large open pit hardwood grill, where the owner was grilling at any given time massive t-bone steaks, veal scaloppini, sausages, or huge strips of bacon, all local. We waited for a menu for a few minutes, but never got one, then the waitress, who appeared to be the owners wife, came with her pen and notepad and told us the menu (in Italian of course). We chose from what we understood, which was the mushroom soup (loaded with porcinis and topped with crushed chestnuts, both from the local surrounding forest) and crostini antipasto for starters. The antipasto was glorious, and the soup even more so. Then out of nowhere appeared another bowl of soup which we understood came as a suggestion from our waitress, a leek soup (which we later found out from the cook from Boston that it had fresh clams cut up in it—unique and deelish!).

We were full at this point, so as you would expect in Italy while on vacation, we succumbed to the secondi—we wanted the veal scallopini from the grill but apparently we were misunderstood and ended up with a massive t-bone, cut up for us into about 10 healthy slices. Grilled with nothing but salt on either side, it was incredibly tender and oh so juicy. I actually got more of an appetite for it as I had each bite. We also ordered fried mushrooms as a contorno—expecting mushrooms fried in butter or the like, they turned out to be breaded porcini’s (we suspect the breading was some kind of chickpea or semola-based batter) and then fried. Really good!

Rounded out with an insalata verde topped with Franci olive oil (the BEST olive oil in Italy), a couple of espressos and chocolate mousse, we were more than stuffed but with no regrets! As we wondered what the bill would be, our guess was pretty much right on at 41 euro. Incredible value in our opinion (we’re from Montreal, so the total in CAD was around $55, all in).

As lunch hour wound down, a woman who had been cooking emerged from the kitchen and asked us if we spoke English, in English. And it was then we learned she was from Boston and was helping them out here for a while until she opens her own resto (which she said would be Spanish tapas since all the other resto’s around serve the same Tuscan menu). She has been a chef for 35 years and owns 2 resto’s in Boston, one of which is called Punicella. We learned from her that the meats we ate as well as all the meats being grilled were all hand cut by the grillmaster himself, and all from local farms.

Worth the detour? You betcha!

Trattoria La Tagliola
(0564) 967351
Bagnoli di Arcidosso (Gr)
Closed Mondays