FarCanal

I've found the feedback from the kind contributors on this site to be extremely useful in the planning of a family holiday. Whether I have taken any notice of this in the following draft itinerary - only you can be the judge!

Following are the places we want to see on tour and the number of days I have tentatively assigned to them. Unquestionably this will be an appetizer trip - not a banquet. Obviously we'd want to spend seven days at every place but I've tried to do justice to them all.

From NZ we are planning to fly to Paris late August next year:

PARIS - 2 nights
Fast train to Marseille. Pick up euro lease car and travel to -
Cote D'Azur - 2 nights
Nice - 1 night
La Spezzia - 1 night (leave car there whilst public transport to CT)
CT - 1 night
Tuscany - 6 nights
Outskirts of Rome - 5 nights daytrips to places like Anzio and Cassino
Amalfi Coast - 3 nights
4 nights heading inland on way to L'Aquila and Ancona
2 nights Ancona
3 nights outskirts of Venice
2 nights Lake Como
3 nights Munich
1 night Nuremburg
1 night Dusseldorf and then back for
1 night Frankfurt
Fly back to NZ

The bigger cities we will stay on the outskirts of and use public transport to get in and out.
If anybody has any suggestions for apartments, villas or hotels along the way, please sing out. Any other comment on this very fluid itinerary, would love to hear it.
Cheers

tuscanlifeedit

Did you have a family member at Anzio or Cassino? I did.

I don't agree with the outskirts thing. If you're going to Rome, go to Rome, ditto Venice.

msteacher

My first impression is that you are doing an awful lot of moving around. I'd suggest narrowing down your list. Personally I'd avoid any one night stays, and would suggest at least three nights in any location. When you're traveling for 40 days, changing hotels every night gets old fast. Also, don't underestimate how long it takes to get from one place to another. Travel will eat up many of your days, leaving you little time to actually enjoy and explore.

I'm also surprised that you are allotting only 2 days to Paris. You could easily spend a week there. I'm also curious about your plan to stay on the "outskirts" of several cities. Is that because you will have a car? In a city like Rome, a car is more of a hindrance than a help. Staying in a central location will allow you to much more easily enjoy all the city has to offer.

A car can be helpful in countryside locations, such as Tuscany. However, when traveling from city to city, the train is much more convenient and usually cheaper. Beware of ZTLs (limited driving zones) and consider what the parking situation will be. Trains will usually take you from city center to city center without the headache of driving.

If you give us a bit more detail about who "we" are (a family with kids, senior citizens, etc) and what you enjoy seeing and doing, I'm sure folks here could provide more feedback about how to pare down your itinerary to make it work the best for you. Happy travels!

artsnletters

If you've never been to Paris before, allowing a single day is criminal. Please make it three!

I agree with tuscan about staying on the outskirts. Why? You will increase the cheaper cost of the room with the expense (not to mention the time) of commuting into the city and back, and you won't have a historic neighborhood to explore in the evenings.

I don't understand why you plan a night in La Spezia and a night in the CT. Whichever, spend both nights in one or the other.

I hope you have checked out the charge for returning a car in a different country than the one you rented it in? If you haven't the cost makes you gasp, which it might, just know that you have no real need for a car until you get to Tuscany. Everywhere else has excellent public transportation or, in the CT, a car cannot be used. I'd suggest picking up your car in La Spezia after you finish with the CT.

FarCanal

Have agonised over this whole car thing. Can certainly see where a train could be useful but with my wife and two teenage boys wanting to stop and 'experience' every aspect of Italy, I'm not sure we could do that in a train. We like the idea of getting off the beaten track and being able to set our own timetable - stopping often, taking photos, lingering at a cafe etc. Regarding staying in cities versus outskirts - we can make that work. For the reletively cheap price we have the car for, it doesn't matter if we don't use it for three or four days whilst we're exploring the big towns.
Any car enthusiasts out there who can vouch for this option? Anyone?

thursdaysd

I would drop Germany altogether and add the time to Paris and the south of France. Have you been to Paris before? Because if not that is totally insufficient time, even without jet lag. And forget abut staying on the outskirts of Venice, to get the full experience you need to be IN Venice in the early morning and evening after the day trippers and cruisers have left.

I'm not sold on the idea of a car on the Amalfi Coast either, you'd be much better off on one of the public buses with someone else driving. That would be a nerve racking road to drive, plus you couldn't drive and admire the scenery. Looks to me that you only need the car between the AC and Venice. Europe has excellent rrains - see http://www.seat61.com/index.html

adrienne

<< We like the idea of getting off the beaten track >>

A lot of your itinerary is so busy that you can either meander or see your destination cities, particularly in Germany.

Here's where I see some problems with the itinerary:

- Skip the day in Paris and the train to Marseilles and fly to Nice.

- You're staying 1 night in La Spezia and 1 night in Cinque Terre. Why not stay 2 nights in one or the other. They're so close together that it's not worth the time to pack/unpack, check into and out of hotels.

- I would not stay on the outskirts of Venice. It's such a magical place you will want to stay there rather than going back and forth to your lodgings. Pay for parking in Venice or Mestre but definitely stay in Venice.

- Lake Como - the mid lake area is so beautiful. You'll need to stay in Menaggio for best access to mid lake towns and to Munich. The drive to Munich is a minimum of 6 hours without stopping for breaks. It may be lots longer in August so 1 entire day will be taken up driving to Munich. That gives you 1 day in Munich.

- Nuremberg to Dusseldorf is at least a half day (5 hours) driving.

Eliminate 1 or 2 towns in Germany so you can follow your travel style and see something of the towns you're going to. Some smaller towns might be better with a car. I haven't been to Bamberg but have read reports about it and the whole area sounds delightful.

For your last night, rather than Frankfurt you might try a smaller city (large town) such as Mainz. I did a day trip there (from Frankfurt) a couple of years ago and really enjoyed it. Check the distance but I think it's close enough to get to the airport in a reasonable time.

In peak season, outside of cities, it will be difficult to find apartments for less than a week.

Did you check to see if drop off charge is included in your car rental price or is it additional and you haven't been told there is a drop off charge? You need to ask this question before renting/leasing.

Chris_Cutler

I've done Italy both by car and by train, and they both have their pros and cons. Taking the train will not allow you to set your own timetable, and that is, as I see it, its biggest disadvantage.

I do like staying on the outskirts of large cities at times. The next time I go to Florence, I'm staying in Fiesole. With public transport the way it is there, I prefer getting away from the big crowds at night and in the morning.

My one concern is how much moving you're doing. I agree with the others and would spend more than one night in a place.

Re: L'Aquila.... Absolutely my favorite place in Italy. It is less-crowded than Tuscany but just as -if not more- beautiful. Be sure to check out Sulmona and the hill towns around there- Pettorano, Pacentro, Raiano, Pratola. Santo Stefano di Sessiano and Rocca Calascio are beautiful. I think the food in Abruzzo is the best in Italy.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Chris_Cutler

By the way.... We've rented cars in Italy 3 times in the past 5 trips there since 2010. Each time, we returned to a different location and did not have a fee for drop-off at a different location.

PS I meant Abruzzo is my favorite place in Italy.

KTtravel

I agree with the others about too many places. If you have not been to Paris before I would stay at least 4-5 nights there. Your one day currently allotted there will be spent in a haze as you recover from jet lag. If you don't want to see Paris, why fly in there?

I think you are underestimating the time it takes to travel from place to place. I, too, would skip Germany this trip but, perhaps, you are already committed to flying out of Frankfurt? If possible, you could fly instead out of Milan.

Stay inside Rome and Venice -- you'll enjoy those cities much more that way.

lavandula

I have actually stayed on the outskirts of some towns myself as we were travelling by car and we didn't want to have to pay exorbitant overnight parking rates at a city hotel. But those occasions (In Groningen, Netherlands and once in Berlin (been there a few times), we weren't expecting to go out at night - when we did Groningen we were then travelling with our infant daughter and were having early nights. Berlin was a slightly different matter - we often stay in a German chain of hotels which specialises in accommodation in rural areas outside big cities and we stayed in Zossen (south of Berlin) and drove in every day. It wasn't bad - quite nice to have the car in Berlin. In Groningen we parked in a city car park during the days that we visited the town and then explored on foot. I am not sure if you could exactly translate our experiences to the settings you are going to, as some places just don't work with cars, but I offer it as an alternate example of why you might want to think about keeping the car and staying out of the centre.

I would certainly endeavour to find out what your individual hotels charge for parking, though, or if there are parking restrictions in the areas. Once in Bremen our hotel had a very small number of parking spots for guests and the rest were meant to fight for parking on the street. However, there were time restrictions on how long you could stay on the street, which mean that we took a risk at night and had to keep moving the car during the day when we were in the hotel. Very cumbersome.

Lavandula

adrienne

FarCanal & Chris_Cutler - can you provide the companies you've used that do not have drop off charges when renting in one country and returning to a different country.

I know it's possible to return a car to a different country without a drop off charge if the car you're renting is from that country. For instance, if you rent in Italy and are returning the car in France and you are lucky enough to get a French car then there is no drop off charge. But this doesn't happen often.

Thanks!

bobthenavigator

Two ideas:
Forget Marseille---get the car in Avignon or Nice.
I assume you mean the lease-buy-back car plan

Eliminte all one-niters---they are useless.

mamcalice

Wow! This is some trip - the Amazing Race to be sure. On the one hand, you say you want to drive so you can "stop and experience every aspect of Italy". On the other hand, you are leaving yourselves so little time that you won't experience Italy at all.

Think about what you want to see and do, not how many places you can fit into your time. Try not to include fewer than 3 nights in any one place. I would stay at least 4 nights in Paris. You might consider eliminating either CT or the Amalfi Coast. I would eliminate Germany since you have almost no time there. You will drive all day, reach your destination in the afternoon only to get up and drive the next day. No time to see much of anything.

And finally, based on 8 trips to Italy, I would use public transportation except for the time in Tuscany.

bilboburgler

My sister is a Kiwi and when she comes to Europe she holidays like this with a lease car. Having been "along for the ride" with her a few times I suggest the following

Rome has carparks in the city centre, google them and book them ahead and just take it in once leave it there until you need to come out. Going to Rome and staying on the outskirts is crazy. Yes you may have a screaming fit but chill out and do it.

Venice, stay in the lagoon and park, like evryone else does, in the big carpark.

Just looking at the last bit
1) 2 nights Lake Como. Why do you come all the way here to see a lake (drop this)
2) What happened to Vienna stop here for a couple of nights
3)3 nights Munich (for what??????? 3 nights are you crazy cut back)

The next three cities are just not worth stopping at all. Why not Hanover or Wurzburg or at least Dresden or at least somewhere pretty

1 night Nuremburg (
1 night Dusseldorf and then back for
1 night Frankfurt
Fly back to NZ

ekc

The car will be useless on the Amalfi Coast in August. Parking is scarce and expensive and traffic is horrendous.

You are wasting a ton of time in transit, checking in and out of hotels, getting to/from cities. Choose a few bases and do day trips from there.

StCirq

There is nothing "off the beaten track" about this Amazing Race itinerary. You're not going to have time to do anything but barrel from place to place, unpack, eat, and sleep, then repeat again the next day.

The car will be a liability. And if you pick it up in country X and drop it off in country Y, you're looking at throwing 500-,1000 euros out the window.

Check bilboburgler's ideas and start hacking things off this list.

dwdvagamundo

If you need a car and prefer the lower rates that longer term rental give, then rent the car and deal with the inconvenience. But don't change your vacation too much just because you've got a car. Unless there is some reason aside from the car you are staying outside the city center (e.g. lodging cost), try to garage the car in a car park and stay right in town.

We've had the same experience that Lavandula has had: hotels that advertise that they have parking, but do not have enough for all their guests. Some hotels want you to make a reservation for parking, some don't mention this. So you should find out at the time you make the booking and reserve if you need to.

Do not spend a nite in La Spezia-- try to garage the car there and go directly to the CT for two nites. You should be able to drive to La Spezia from Nice in enough time to park the car and get public transportation, which seems to leave frequently.

We had a car on the Amalfi Coast (although we stayed just outside Sorrento at a hotel that included parking). Driving the Amalfi Coast is one of the highlights of our travel experiences, so it would be nice to have a car there if possible.


I'd stay in Venice and park the car at the Piazzale Roma at the end of the causeway. It's very convenient. I'd do the same thing in Rome, although I've never tried parking there.

I'd drop Como as bilboburgler suggests because it's out of your way. Instead, why not drive to Lake Garda, spend the nite, and then drive over the Brenner pass to Munich via Innsbruck? Just under four hours as opposed to the six that adrienne has.

I agree with trying to add Vienna, but it's your trip and if you want to spend one nite in each of the German cities, then go for it.

Buon viaggio

nytraveler

I hate to say it but you seem to be intent on recreating the Bataan death march.

You will have spend a lot of time and a LOT of money to drive all over the place and see very little of anything. If you look at any decent mapping site you will find that you have only a couple of hours in many of these places - in the late afternoon - then dinner and out the door at 8 am for the next place.

Really just an overall terrible idea.

And we have done many road trips in europe and don't get all exorcised abut paying a drop off charge (and yes, every company charges them and they are usually higher on the larger/more expensive cars - but this is just part of the cost, along with tolls on highways and gas at $10 a gallon). Road trips are very doable and can be a lot of fun. That is not your problem.

Your problem is flying (although at ground level)through many parts of europe without actually seeing ANY major sights, much countryside, anything off the beaten path or sitting in a cafe having a drink and watching the world go by for an hour. IMHO you will have missed the entire point of europe and may as well just watch a bunch of videos.

As for staying in the outskirts - this is a terrible idea. With so little time you can afford to waste hours of sightseeing time trekking back and forth AFTER you figure out the local transit system - different in each city. You get a hotel in the absolute center that has a garage. OR - have then give you the name of a nearby garage and the necessary pass to get to it through the local ZTL. *We typically do road trips with a large anchor city - 4 or 5 days - on each end. Then drive between them, stopping in smaller cities or towns and seeing countryside, natural beauty, etc. We also stop in a place 3 or 4 days and do day trips. One night stands are an absolute no-no - for reasons of sanity.)

You don't say who "we" are. I hope you have everyone's agreement to this forced march - or they may drop off along the way.

FarCanal

Thanks for the comments. This itinerary has been planned around a 'once in a lifetime' trip. Will we come back? God I hope so but if we don't I want to be able to say at least we've had a good look around. Spending more time in Paris makes more sense as we have no idea what condition a 34 hour trip to get there will leave us in. We will look at staying in Rome and Venice but find a place to leave the car. Would still love to see a cost/benefit analysis on car v train for four independent travelers looking at seeing a bit of the country. Want to go to Munich for quaint cultural festival they have there in late September but will ditch Nuremburg and Dusseldorf. Rather than a Frankfurt fly out will look at Milan. Will now reconsider hotel nights to keep them at a minimum three day duration although we are traveling light and don't plan on spending too much time in the car between locations. But must admit the coastal drive from Marseille to Genoa is one we are all looking forward to and wil be one of the highlights. Any tips on accommodation along be way? Cheers