Traveling with bi-racial family, any concerns with racism?
Jun 3rd, 2009, 10:26 AM
#1
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Traveling with bi-racial family, any concerns with racism?
My husband and I are white, our daughter is African-American, sons are white. We're heading to Italy (Milan, Rome, points between, also the opposite coast Ancona/Bari), Croatia, and Bosnia next spring for a month. Are there any specific areas where anyone feels we may encounter blatant racism? I'm not talking about staring, I mean stuff that may actually threaten my children.
We live in a very diverse area now so I don't usually have to worry about these things on a daily basis; have to be reminded that it's a big world out there.
We do anticipate some questioning when crossing into Bosnia and will be carrying our daughter's adoption decrees.
Thanks!
We live in a very diverse area now so I don't usually have to worry about these things on a daily basis; have to be reminded that it's a big world out there.
We do anticipate some questioning when crossing into Bosnia and will be carrying our daughter's adoption decrees.
Thanks!
Jun 3rd, 2009, 11:05 AM
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I have traveled through Italy with my dad and stepmom who are a bi-racial couple. We encountered no problems at all, not even stares. I haven't yet been to Bosnia or Croatia, I hope someone else can help.
Jun 5th, 2009, 03:28 AM
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Biracial/multiracial families are far more common in Europe than in US, so it's not a novelty. Provided you try to blend with local culture and expectations, you will be left alone to enjoy your holidays. And you shouldn't expect any trouble from those in tourist industry, as they need to earn every cent from visitors wherever they are from.
Jun 5th, 2009, 06:50 AM
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>Biracial/multiracial families are far more common in Europe than in US, so it's not a novelty.<
Where did you get the data on this?
Or is this just more anecdotal progaganda supporting that Europe is more open-minded than the US?
Sorry, but we in the US have a black president. No European nation can claim a balck head-of-state.
It is really annoying--especially for me because I was born in Europe--when people start claiming that Europe is more diverse than the US.
Thin
Where did you get the data on this?
Or is this just more anecdotal progaganda supporting that Europe is more open-minded than the US?
Sorry, but we in the US have a black president. No European nation can claim a balck head-of-state.
It is really annoying--especially for me because I was born in Europe--when people start claiming that Europe is more diverse than the US.
Thin
Jun 5th, 2009, 07:35 AM
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I don't know the figures for the US, but see
http://tinyurl.com/7u9c7
I quote
"By 1997 already half of black men and a third of black women in relationships had a white partner according to a major study of ethnic minorities published by the Policy Studies Institute (PSI).
It also revealed that other inter-racial relationships were flourishing with a fifth of Asian men and 10% of Asian women opting for a white partner"
http://tinyurl.com/7u9c7
I quote
"By 1997 already half of black men and a third of black women in relationships had a white partner according to a major study of ethnic minorities published by the Policy Studies Institute (PSI).
It also revealed that other inter-racial relationships were flourishing with a fifth of Asian men and 10% of Asian women opting for a white partner"
Jun 5th, 2009, 08:12 AM
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Europe is a big place .
Some countries have (now) rather large immigrant population ( Germany, Holland) , or a good segment of the population originated from the former colonies ( France, Britain). Easter Europe may be much less diverse.
The fact that US president is of mixed race is wonderful, but Blacks represent about 14% of the US population. I don't think one would find similar statistics in any European country.
I would agree, though, that US and Canada are much more accepting of diversity than any European country ( so far).
Some countries have (now) rather large immigrant population ( Germany, Holland) , or a good segment of the population originated from the former colonies ( France, Britain). Easter Europe may be much less diverse.
The fact that US president is of mixed race is wonderful, but Blacks represent about 14% of the US population. I don't think one would find similar statistics in any European country.
I would agree, though, that US and Canada are much more accepting of diversity than any European country ( so far).
Jun 5th, 2009, 08:36 AM
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MsP: with all due respect your interpretation is a total misunderstanding of that statistic. Market research was my field of study. What that figure suggests might be that people of colour are likely to look outside their own census group for a partner. But there is no way that those numbers support your larger claim. In fact, quite the opposite: those people who are visibile minorities seek partners outside their own racial group because there are not enough within.
Having said that and having witnessed some prejudice in Italy, I would still say that attitudes there are changing rapidly. Any negative feelings will be limited to stares as others have said. I do hope your children do not understand the language, though because I have had the uncomfortable 'advantage' of understanding a few remarks delivered by locals that were clearly not meant to be understood by me. The influx of rapid immigration to Italy has moved faster than the open-mindedness that will come in time.
Having said that and having witnessed some prejudice in Italy, I would still say that attitudes there are changing rapidly. Any negative feelings will be limited to stares as others have said. I do hope your children do not understand the language, though because I have had the uncomfortable 'advantage' of understanding a few remarks delivered by locals that were clearly not meant to be understood by me. The influx of rapid immigration to Italy has moved faster than the open-mindedness that will come in time.
Jun 5th, 2009, 09:40 AM
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I don't think MsP was interpeting anything, she merely gave a link to an interesting article (and those kind of statistics are very difficult to find in a lot of countries, at least publicly, as they don't count or report mixed race marriages or perhaps even do that in vital statistics) and quoted some lines from it. That article was making that statement but didn't really have any statistic about those marriages out of the total, it was a statistic quoting the opposite percentages (percentages of blacks that had white partners, not the percentage those relationships are of the total). Actually, it isn't even clear how they defined "relationships", so who knows. I don't think MP made any larger claim at all, in fact (unless it has been erased), I believe Alec did.
I believe I have read that out of the total marriages in England, less than 2 pct are interracial. It is a lot higher than that in the US, more like 5-10 pct.
I have worked not only in marketing research, but demography and statistics, and as I said, those numbers are hard to get from European countries. I can't quote figures, but I think they are more common in the US than in Europe, at least Italy for sure. And as for the comment that Germany as a lot of immigrants. Well, that can mean anything, as a lot of them are white, also. Now if that was really supposed to be a term that meant black/African/Asian or whatever, it should have said so, but I have seen stats from the French national statistics agency, for example, and the majority of immigrants to France are from other European countries, not Africa. Africa is second, of course, but immigrants from Africa to France are smaller in number than from Europe. Germany is a lot different in ways regarding race than Italy, in my experience, also, and I don't think Italy has as many immigrants as a lot of other countries in Europe.
Saying a country is diverse in terms of population is different to me than saying there are more biracial marriages/couples/families in Europe than the US, notably Italy. Especially saying it was "far more common" in Europe. I don't think so, but have never seen any data to support that statement and would be willing to look at it if there were some. The US has very good data on things like that which is published by the NCHS and Census, etc., but some other countries won't publish stuff like that (France won't even count it, I believe).
I believe I have read that out of the total marriages in England, less than 2 pct are interracial. It is a lot higher than that in the US, more like 5-10 pct.
I have worked not only in marketing research, but demography and statistics, and as I said, those numbers are hard to get from European countries. I can't quote figures, but I think they are more common in the US than in Europe, at least Italy for sure. And as for the comment that Germany as a lot of immigrants. Well, that can mean anything, as a lot of them are white, also. Now if that was really supposed to be a term that meant black/African/Asian or whatever, it should have said so, but I have seen stats from the French national statistics agency, for example, and the majority of immigrants to France are from other European countries, not Africa. Africa is second, of course, but immigrants from Africa to France are smaller in number than from Europe. Germany is a lot different in ways regarding race than Italy, in my experience, also, and I don't think Italy has as many immigrants as a lot of other countries in Europe.
Saying a country is diverse in terms of population is different to me than saying there are more biracial marriages/couples/families in Europe than the US, notably Italy. Especially saying it was "far more common" in Europe. I don't think so, but have never seen any data to support that statement and would be willing to look at it if there were some. The US has very good data on things like that which is published by the NCHS and Census, etc., but some other countries won't publish stuff like that (France won't even count it, I believe).
Jun 6th, 2009, 07:20 AM
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Hi I'm Indian and my DH is a very pale Scot. Never had any hassle travelling in Europe esp Italy & Greece. Not been to any former Yugoslav states so can't help.
We were surprised that we managed to stop conversation in restaurants in Dubaibut that may have been because htey thought I was from the Middle East.
I wouldn't put it on the list of things to worry about. We travel a lot and find that people respond to us the same everywhere. The type of people who think something of us as a couple seem to exist everywhere but are far outweighed by those who are decent folks regardless of where we all are.
We were surprised that we managed to stop conversation in restaurants in Dubai
but that may have been because htey thought I was from the Middle East.I wouldn't put it on the list of things to worry about. We travel a lot and find that people respond to us the same everywhere. The type of people who think something of us as a couple seem to exist everywhere but are far outweighed by those who are decent folks regardless of where we all are.
Jun 21st, 2009, 03:24 AM
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I wouldn't worry about that.
There might be some people (mostly older) that look at you a bit odd, but it's just because they are not used to that.
But nothing violent in any way.
You just enjoy your holiday in eitheir of those countries and forget about it.
There might be some people (mostly older) that look at you a bit odd, but it's just because they are not used to that.
But nothing violent in any way.
You just enjoy your holiday in eitheir of those countries and forget about it.
Jun 21st, 2009, 04:06 AM
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What I was saying was that there is more acceptance of mixed-race relationships in Europe (esp those countries with significant non-white population, like France, UK etc) than in US, taking into account racial demographics. I'm not talking about statistical studies, but a general public perception. For example, the fact that one of your leading football stars, OJ Simpson, married a white girl caused quite a stirr at that time (I'm not referring to subsequent murder trial), while many black football (soccer) stars in UK and France have married or live in stable relationship across racial lines and have hardly caused a rippple of reaction.
So the OP should have no fear of any unpleasant reaction in Europe. Of course racists and bigoted people exist everywhere, but generally speaking, interracial relationship is so common that it would hardly be noticed or give rise to adverse reaction - other than ignorant stares from some.
So the OP should have no fear of any unpleasant reaction in Europe. Of course racists and bigoted people exist everywhere, but generally speaking, interracial relationship is so common that it would hardly be noticed or give rise to adverse reaction - other than ignorant stares from some.
Jun 21st, 2009, 05:42 AM
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> For example, the fact that one of your leading football stars, OJ Simpson, married a white girl caused quite a stirr at that time (I'm not referring to subsequent murder trial), while many black football (soccer) stars in UK and France have married or live in stable relationship across racial lines and have hardly caused a rippple of reaction.<
#1 OJ Simpson hasn't been a football star in the US since the 1970's.
#2 I don't think anyone in the US knew OJ had married a white WOMAN--not a girl, sweetie darling--until the murder trial--which was what 14 years ago???????????
>What I was saying was that there is more acceptance of mixed-race relationships in Europe (esp those countries with significant non-white population, like France, UK etc) than in US, taking into account racial demographics. I'm not talking about statistical studies, but a general public perception.<
If you can't site statistics or studies than what you have written above is just an opinion.
Your perception is not my perception.
You obviously don't read Jane Austin.
Thin
#1 OJ Simpson hasn't been a football star in the US since the 1970's.
#2 I don't think anyone in the US knew OJ had married a white WOMAN--not a girl, sweetie darling--until the murder trial--which was what 14 years ago???????????
>What I was saying was that there is more acceptance of mixed-race relationships in Europe (esp those countries with significant non-white population, like France, UK etc) than in US, taking into account racial demographics. I'm not talking about statistical studies, but a general public perception.<
If you can't site statistics or studies than what you have written above is just an opinion.
Your perception is not my perception.
You obviously don't read Jane Austin.
Thin
Jun 21st, 2009, 06:18 AM
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Cries_Van_Notebook
Your perception isn't my perception, either, and a lot of people I know and live with. Statistically sound? I don't know. But borne out by personal experience? Certainly! And this is what counts, when someone asks a travel forum. No one can guarantee anything, but one can certainly cite probability and likelihood, from greater personal experience.
Your perception isn't my perception, either, and a lot of people I know and live with. Statistically sound? I don't know. But borne out by personal experience? Certainly! And this is what counts, when someone asks a travel forum. No one can guarantee anything, but one can certainly cite probability and likelihood, from greater personal experience.
Jun 21st, 2009, 06:31 AM
#18
Going back to the OP. Very unlikely to be any real hassle in these countries. Very unlikely to be any real staring (these guys have TV and everything) no not sure of statistics of tV ownership etc etc.
You will also find that in Italy children are enjoyed in public and welcome in restaurants, for historical reasons you should have similar positive issues in the other countries, though I note that some Northern European countries are brought up to believe that children should be seen and not heard.
Now back to the nut-hatch
You will also find that in Italy children are enjoyed in public and welcome in restaurants, for historical reasons you should have similar positive issues in the other countries, though I note that some Northern European countries are brought up to believe that children should be seen and not heard.
Now back to the nut-hatch
Jun 22nd, 2009, 09:38 PM
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We are white parents who've traveled extensive with our black son, now 16. The answer is ... you can encounter uncomfortable stuff anywhere.
We got some real vicious looks from an old guy in an Athens subway. We've had Greeks and Danes tell us that most Europeans would not consider an interracial adoption. We've picked up strange looks in the U.S. and I've had a redneck U.S. shopkeeper blatantly bird dog my son when similar white kids ran a muck ... not knowing the boy was my straight-arrow kid. (The perspective you get watching people deal with your child when they don't know you're the parent is always enlightening and too often sobering.) We were a bit concerned about China but had absolutely no trouble there. Nowhere abroad have we felt threatened.
But, all in all, my son who has visited Italy, Greece, UK, China and Australia plus 40 states has had his worst racial experiences in the good ol' USA, including in one of the top school systems of one of the nation's most "progressive" states.
We got some real vicious looks from an old guy in an Athens subway. We've had Greeks and Danes tell us that most Europeans would not consider an interracial adoption. We've picked up strange looks in the U.S. and I've had a redneck U.S. shopkeeper blatantly bird dog my son when similar white kids ran a muck ... not knowing the boy was my straight-arrow kid. (The perspective you get watching people deal with your child when they don't know you're the parent is always enlightening and too often sobering.) We were a bit concerned about China but had absolutely no trouble there. Nowhere abroad have we felt threatened.
But, all in all, my son who has visited Italy, Greece, UK, China and Australia plus 40 states has had his worst racial experiences in the good ol' USA, including in one of the top school systems of one of the nation's most "progressive" states.
