Train Route Help! France, Spain, Italy & Switzerland
May 30th, 2016, 10:25 PM
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Train Route Help! France, Spain, Italy & Switzerland
Hi. I'm will be traveling to Europe for the first time. I will be there for 28 days. My starting and departing point in Europe will be Paris. I need help deciding an efficient train route. I want to visit the following cities: Paris, Versailles, Loire valley, Luzerne, Interlaken, lake come, Milan, Cinque Terre, Venezia, Firenze, Roma, Nice, Barcelona, Madrid, and Granada..
Should I do France, Switzerland, Italy, Spain and back to France? Or France, Spain, Italy, Switzerland and back to France?
Thanks
Should I do France, Switzerland, Italy, Spain and back to France? Or France, Spain, Italy, Switzerland and back to France?
Thanks
May 31st, 2016, 01:57 AM
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Getting to/from Spain will take the most time, so for time efficiency consider consider flying from Madrid or Barcelona to Rome or Florence.
I will let others jump in with their comments about seeing 15 different locations in in 28 days...
I will let others jump in with their comments about seeing 15 different locations in in 28 days...
May 31st, 2016, 06:02 AM
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You should have bought open-jaw tickets, into your first place to visit and out of your last. Otherwise, you are wasting a good bit of time and money backtracking. And unless you're doing a thesis on European train stations you need to cut your wish-list of destinations at least in half, as right now you aren't going to see a single thing in Europe except train stations and the inside of train cars or do anything but haul luggage around and look at scheduling billboards.
May 31st, 2016, 06:21 AM
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If doing all that by train look into some kind of railpass -like a Eurail Select Saver Pass - two folks traveling together on one pass - great sources of info on trains - www.seat61.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.ricksteves.com.
I agree with both posters above about trying to do too much - cut it in half and two two separate trips at different times.
I agree with both posters above about trying to do too much - cut it in half and two two separate trips at different times.
May 31st, 2016, 06:39 AM
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Versailles and the Loire Valley are near Paris. Versailles is an easy day trip from the city, and you can even visit a few Loire castles on a day trip (as we did once). If you do this, I'd allow a minimum of five nights in Paris.
After Paris I would head to Barcelona. There is a high-speed train, but it still takes over 6 hours, and it would probably be cheaper and quicker to get a budget flight; see www.skyscanner.net .
From Barcelona, you can take a train or fly to Granada. There is an overnight train on this route, which might be worth looking into. This is another long trip, but it's best to finish your Spanish venture in Madrid, from which it's easier to get to Nice (or Italy). Each of these places would require a minimum of two nights to be able to see anything at all. It would be an awful lot of travel to spend three actual days visiting three different cities. It would be much better to spend three nights in each city.
From Madrid I would fly to Nice. The train ride would be very long.
From Nice, you could go to Milan by train. If you stay four nights, you could visit Lake Como as a day trip, and perhaps also Monterosso, one of the Cinque Terre towns. Then you could take the high-speed train to Rome, where you should spend a minimum of three nights, better four.
If you leave Rome early in the morning, you could stop over for a few hours in Florence, leaving your luggage at the train station left luggage facility while you spend most of the day in Florence. You would then pick up your luggage and proceed to Venice, where you should spend a minimum of two nights. From Venice, you could go to Switzerland, perhaps staying in Lucerne and visiting Interlaken as a day trip. I don't think it's really worth the trip, though. If you want to go up into the mountains, you should spend more time in Interlaken and maybe visit Lucerne as a day trip. From Switzerland, you could head back to Paris. There are direct trains from Zurich and Basel.
The above answers your question, but I think you need to reflect a bit on the fact that your itinerary includes some very long trips by train or air. Will you be in Europe for 28 days, or does that include the travel to Europe and back home? In that case, you have only 26 days in Europe, maybe less, depending on where you're coming from. Of those days, six will be devoted largely to travel, and several other days will be spent partly or mostly on travel.
I've added up the places you want to visit, giving at least two nights to each city, and a few extra nights to the cities where you want to visit nearby places, presumably as day trips. I get 32 nights, so that's obviously impossible with the time you have. On the other hand, most of your cities are not anywhere near each other, so spending one night would mean arriving late and leaving early the next morning.
If you want to cut something out, one obvious choice would be Spain. All three cities you want to visit are a good distance one from another, and Spain is not very near any of the other countries you want to visit.
Another place to cut would be Nice, which isn't a major destination, and not near anything else.
Switzerland could be skipped, but it is a convenient stopover on the way back to Paris. You could perhaps skip Interlaken, and go up some of the mountains closer to Lucerne.
You'd save more time by avoiding the trip back to Paris altogether, flying into Paris and home from Rome, for example. If you haven't already bought the air tickets, why don't you try to do that?
After Paris I would head to Barcelona. There is a high-speed train, but it still takes over 6 hours, and it would probably be cheaper and quicker to get a budget flight; see www.skyscanner.net .
From Barcelona, you can take a train or fly to Granada. There is an overnight train on this route, which might be worth looking into. This is another long trip, but it's best to finish your Spanish venture in Madrid, from which it's easier to get to Nice (or Italy). Each of these places would require a minimum of two nights to be able to see anything at all. It would be an awful lot of travel to spend three actual days visiting three different cities. It would be much better to spend three nights in each city.
From Madrid I would fly to Nice. The train ride would be very long.
From Nice, you could go to Milan by train. If you stay four nights, you could visit Lake Como as a day trip, and perhaps also Monterosso, one of the Cinque Terre towns. Then you could take the high-speed train to Rome, where you should spend a minimum of three nights, better four.
If you leave Rome early in the morning, you could stop over for a few hours in Florence, leaving your luggage at the train station left luggage facility while you spend most of the day in Florence. You would then pick up your luggage and proceed to Venice, where you should spend a minimum of two nights. From Venice, you could go to Switzerland, perhaps staying in Lucerne and visiting Interlaken as a day trip. I don't think it's really worth the trip, though. If you want to go up into the mountains, you should spend more time in Interlaken and maybe visit Lucerne as a day trip. From Switzerland, you could head back to Paris. There are direct trains from Zurich and Basel.
The above answers your question, but I think you need to reflect a bit on the fact that your itinerary includes some very long trips by train or air. Will you be in Europe for 28 days, or does that include the travel to Europe and back home? In that case, you have only 26 days in Europe, maybe less, depending on where you're coming from. Of those days, six will be devoted largely to travel, and several other days will be spent partly or mostly on travel.
I've added up the places you want to visit, giving at least two nights to each city, and a few extra nights to the cities where you want to visit nearby places, presumably as day trips. I get 32 nights, so that's obviously impossible with the time you have. On the other hand, most of your cities are not anywhere near each other, so spending one night would mean arriving late and leaving early the next morning.
If you want to cut something out, one obvious choice would be Spain. All three cities you want to visit are a good distance one from another, and Spain is not very near any of the other countries you want to visit.
Another place to cut would be Nice, which isn't a major destination, and not near anything else.
Switzerland could be skipped, but it is a convenient stopover on the way back to Paris. You could perhaps skip Interlaken, and go up some of the mountains closer to Lucerne.
You'd save more time by avoiding the trip back to Paris altogether, flying into Paris and home from Rome, for example. If you haven't already bought the air tickets, why don't you try to do that?
May 31st, 2016, 09:11 AM
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Another place to cut would be Nice, which isn't a major destination, and not near anything else.>
Well it is for zillions of folks - there are so many things to do in the Cote d'Azur area -
but that said bvlenci has taken an incredible time to lay out a wonderful itinerary.
check out night trains - I took the Granada to Barcelona one and it was neat - a Hotel Train with some compartments I believe even with shower and WC in them - at a big cost of course.
Well it is for zillions of folks - there are so many things to do in the Cote d'Azur area -
but that said bvlenci has taken an incredible time to lay out a wonderful itinerary.
check out night trains - I took the Granada to Barcelona one and it was neat - a Hotel Train with some compartments I believe even with shower and WC in them - at a big cost of course.
May 31st, 2016, 12:38 PM
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May 31st, 2016, 05:21 PM
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15 different places in 28 days (which is really 20 days after you deduct the 1/2 day it takes to get from one city to another) gives you 1 1/3 days per city.
Wile this is physically possible you will spend a very large amount of time and money making a ver extensive tour of the train stations of europe. At the end you will be exhausted and doubt you will remember more than a few bits of what you see.
I can't tell you how to fix this - only you know what you want to see/do. But if you can list for 2 or 3 cities the things you want to see/do and figure out how long it will take to do them - you will soon see how impossible your current itinerary is.
Wile this is physically possible you will spend a very large amount of time and money making a ver extensive tour of the train stations of europe. At the end you will be exhausted and doubt you will remember more than a few bits of what you see.
I can't tell you how to fix this - only you know what you want to see/do. But if you can list for 2 or 3 cities the things you want to see/do and figure out how long it will take to do them - you will soon see how impossible your current itinerary is.
May 31st, 2016, 06:16 PM
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Let me be more direct than others have been. If you want to see/do/experience anything of Europe in your 4 weeks there you need to cut between half and two-thirds of the places you list. If budget is a consideration, you'll want/need to cut Switzerland. Take good look at a map - if you can choose places in the same general area, you'll cut down on travel time/expense.
Each time you change locations, you lose half a day to most of a day to travel time (figure from when you check out of lodgings in one city until you are checked in at the next). So if you have 3 days worth of things you want to do/see in a place, you'll need to stay 4 nights. If take day trips from a place, you'll need more time.
If it was me - and it isn't - I'd opt for just France and Italy. Even then you have to limit the number of stops you make.
Each time you change locations, you lose half a day to most of a day to travel time (figure from when you check out of lodgings in one city until you are checked in at the next). So if you have 3 days worth of things you want to do/see in a place, you'll need to stay 4 nights. If take day trips from a place, you'll need more time.
If it was me - and it isn't - I'd opt for just France and Italy. Even then you have to limit the number of stops you make.
Jun 1st, 2016, 01:39 AM
#12
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Wow guys!! This are awesome replies to my question. I have obviously never being to Europe and I will definitely take your advice on cutting out 2/3 of my unrealistic journey.
I am unfortunately bound to arriving and departing from Paris from the US-Hawaii. So that I have to suck it up. I do have 28 days without counting travel days to/from US
How about: Paris, Madrid, Barcelona, Milan, Como, Monterroso, Venezia,Firenze, Rome and Interlaken. I really want to do the toboggan ride in Switzerland. Budget is definitely a must coming from so far and traveling with two teens (I'm mom).
I can't thank you enough for your help. Thank you ��
I am unfortunately bound to arriving and departing from Paris from the US-Hawaii. So that I have to suck it up. I do have 28 days without counting travel days to/from US
How about: Paris, Madrid, Barcelona, Milan, Como, Monterroso, Venezia,Firenze, Rome and Interlaken. I really want to do the toboggan ride in Switzerland. Budget is definitely a must coming from so far and traveling with two teens (I'm mom).
I can't thank you enough for your help. Thank you ��
Jun 1st, 2016, 03:16 AM
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Going all the way to Interlaken for a toboggan run makes no sense at all. Have you calculated the travel time to get there and get away again? A summer tourist toboggan run on a metal track is basically an overpriced roller coaster. (I assume, given the teens, that this will be a summer trip.)
Besides, Switzerland is about the most expensive country in Europe, and Interlaken is about the most expensive city in Switzerland.
You certainly haven't cut out 2/3rds of the original itinerary. You now have ten rather than 15 destinations.
Besides, Switzerland is about the most expensive country in Europe, and Interlaken is about the most expensive city in Switzerland.
You certainly haven't cut out 2/3rds of the original itinerary. You now have ten rather than 15 destinations.
Jun 1st, 2016, 05:46 AM
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bvlenci is right, the tobaggan run is not as exciting as you might think. We did one in Interlaken and it was ok, but definitely not worth designing your trip around. Just a thought - We did a day trip from Lake Como to Bellinzona Switzerland and there was a toboggan ride near there.
Jun 1st, 2016, 06:00 AM
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cocomaria,
So many veteran fodorites like PalenQ, Kathie, nytraveler are already giving you great advice. They have shaped many of my itineraries and I am grateful to them. All that I did was listened to their advice.
They all are much more experienced and wiser than I am. What more do I add? I can only advice you because I have made some mistakes in my earlier trips to Europe.
I was also like you 17 years back. Have slowed down purposefully after I joined Fodors.
tell yourself, This is just the beginning. You will be fortunate enough to go there again and again. You cant see it all in one trip and remember all too.
I would say, keep Spain Portugal for the next trip. They are different and vibrant, but not very easy bu Eurail. Whenever you visit them- You should use open jaw ticket with low cost airlines for main places and a few rail tickets. Eurail makes no sense there.
Make a mix of different places like Big cities, smaller towns, quaint villages, scenic countryside, architectural monuments, cultural places.
Also try cheaper airlines along with Eurail.
Keep 3 to 4 days for each destination. That makes it 7 to 9 places.
If you narrow down on 5 countries that have excellent and frequent Rail network.
France, Italy, Austria, Germany, Switzerland
If you have to properly utilize 21 days Eurail pass..
1. fly directly from Paris to Rome by a cheaper airlines.
Spend 3 days there.
2. Validate your 21 days Eurail pass.
Rome 3 Days
By Eurail...
Travel to
Florence 2 nights
Milan 2 nights with days trip to Portofino, Cinque Terre (not much in Milan itself- u may skip this stop entirely to add 1 night each at some other destination)
Venice 2 days 1 night
Overnight train to Vienna
Vienna - 3 nights
Salzburg 3 nights ( with a day trip to Hallstat)
Munich and surrounding area- 4 nights
Interlaken- 5 nights - day trip to Lucern, (Gruyere, Bern), Alpine peaks, Scenic rail journeys (try staying at Lauterbrunnen for 1 night)
Train to Paris
That completes the 21 days Unlimited Eurail pass..
4 nights in Paris with Versailles half day trip ( 5 nights even better)
This gives a little bit of everything in Europe.
You may decide which places fascinate you.
If you are keen on Loire etc, you may skip Milan or one entire country, like Germany or Austria. They are very interesting and beautiful and deserve many more days.
Happy planning...
So many veteran fodorites like PalenQ, Kathie, nytraveler are already giving you great advice. They have shaped many of my itineraries and I am grateful to them. All that I did was listened to their advice.
They all are much more experienced and wiser than I am. What more do I add? I can only advice you because I have made some mistakes in my earlier trips to Europe.
I was also like you 17 years back. Have slowed down purposefully after I joined Fodors.
tell yourself, This is just the beginning. You will be fortunate enough to go there again and again. You cant see it all in one trip and remember all too.
I would say, keep Spain Portugal for the next trip. They are different and vibrant, but not very easy bu Eurail. Whenever you visit them- You should use open jaw ticket with low cost airlines for main places and a few rail tickets. Eurail makes no sense there.
Make a mix of different places like Big cities, smaller towns, quaint villages, scenic countryside, architectural monuments, cultural places.
Also try cheaper airlines along with Eurail.
Keep 3 to 4 days for each destination. That makes it 7 to 9 places.
If you narrow down on 5 countries that have excellent and frequent Rail network.
France, Italy, Austria, Germany, Switzerland
If you have to properly utilize 21 days Eurail pass..
1. fly directly from Paris to Rome by a cheaper airlines.
Spend 3 days there.
2. Validate your 21 days Eurail pass.
Rome 3 Days
By Eurail...
Travel to
Florence 2 nights
Milan 2 nights with days trip to Portofino, Cinque Terre (not much in Milan itself- u may skip this stop entirely to add 1 night each at some other destination)
Venice 2 days 1 night
Overnight train to Vienna
Vienna - 3 nights
Salzburg 3 nights ( with a day trip to Hallstat)
Munich and surrounding area- 4 nights
Interlaken- 5 nights - day trip to Lucern, (Gruyere, Bern), Alpine peaks, Scenic rail journeys (try staying at Lauterbrunnen for 1 night)
Train to Paris
That completes the 21 days Unlimited Eurail pass..
4 nights in Paris with Versailles half day trip ( 5 nights even better)
This gives a little bit of everything in Europe.
You may decide which places fascinate you.
If you are keen on Loire etc, you may skip Milan or one entire country, like Germany or Austria. They are very interesting and beautiful and deserve many more days.
Happy planning...
Jun 1st, 2016, 06:21 AM
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cocomaria, You have probably not mentioned you travel dates. They are very important while choosing places.
By the way, Granada and Madrid and Barcelona are great and vibrant but not the only best places in Spain. They are outside the main tourist circuit.
Andalucia is one of the best province with Seville as the main destination. For something different and more authentic, try exploring the interior of Andalucía along the Route of the White Hill Towns (Ruta de los Pueblos Blanchos). This charm bracelet of cute villages gives you wonderfully untouched Spanish culture.
Spend a night in the romantic queen of the white towns, Arcos de la Frontera.
Ronda and other small towns are charming.
Toledo and Segovia around Madrid are great day trips.
You must visit Lisbon, Sintra and some more small picturesque places like Obidos in the same tour.
Obviously, you cant club them all along with the rest of Europe.
This post is only to suggest that don't stick to the main touristy places in a country and miss off beat gems just because you had to see other countries. Mix small quaint villages and towns with big cities to get the true feel of a country.
By the way, Granada and Madrid and Barcelona are great and vibrant but not the only best places in Spain. They are outside the main tourist circuit.
Andalucia is one of the best province with Seville as the main destination. For something different and more authentic, try exploring the interior of Andalucía along the Route of the White Hill Towns (Ruta de los Pueblos Blanchos). This charm bracelet of cute villages gives you wonderfully untouched Spanish culture.
Spend a night in the romantic queen of the white towns, Arcos de la Frontera.
Ronda and other small towns are charming.
Toledo and Segovia around Madrid are great day trips.
You must visit Lisbon, Sintra and some more small picturesque places like Obidos in the same tour.
Obviously, you cant club them all along with the rest of Europe.
This post is only to suggest that don't stick to the main touristy places in a country and miss off beat gems just because you had to see other countries. Mix small quaint villages and towns with big cities to get the true feel of a country.
Jun 1st, 2016, 08:28 AM
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Ok I have to give you a little more info. I arrive in Paris Sept 6 and depart on October 4. I need and want to go to Spain because that is where my heritage is from and I have a friend who lives in Madrid. Milan although not my favorite choice is where I have a cousin I can stay with and save on lodging at least for a couple nights with day trips to Portofino and cinque terre. I am willing to completely cut out Switzerland but France, Italy and Spain are a must. Does this sound more doable? Also I haven't bought the rail passes so I'm open to purchasing a couple of one way local airfares.
Any advice on a route to get a good mix of these three?
Any advice on a route to get a good mix of these three?
Jun 1st, 2016, 11:05 AM
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I disagree - if the OP visits all the places in their OP a Eurail Select Saverpass will I think be cheaper than a long string of discounted tickets and it's first class so comparing that to 2nd class discounted tickets is like comparing apples to oranges - there are significant benefits to first class. And you can chose your trains once there for your itinerary rather than booking in stone - no changes from a specific train you book months in advance to get the lowest fares.
So the efficacy of a pass depends on what class you want to ride and whether or not your want flexibility - in your case you have so many longish trips even discounted 2nd class tickets could rival the pass price.
But do the maths - few people are traveling on trains as much as you are but to say a pass is virtually worthless in France and Italy is just misinformation - it depends on many factors.
So the efficacy of a pass depends on what class you want to ride and whether or not your want flexibility - in your case you have so many longish trips even discounted 2nd class tickets could rival the pass price.
But do the maths - few people are traveling on trains as much as you are but to say a pass is virtually worthless in France and Italy is just misinformation - it depends on many factors.
