Many of the people on this forum are do-it-yourselfers. We've never used a tour company, we've always done it on our own.
We like to pick our itinerary, hotels, restaurants, etc. We don't want to be herded on the bus, into a site, etc.
If you want to see what you want, when you want, and IF you want, do it yourself. There are lots of people on this site and others who will help you.

italybound@verizon.net

Steves tours are very good. You might consider taking one of his two or three week tour and then going on your own to areas he didn't visit or circle back for some thing you might have missed earlier. We do a lot of trips where we travel for week, do a ten to 15 day cruise in the middle and then travel for another week to ten days. It is nice to break it up some.

I don't mean to be rude but
DO IT ON YOUR OWN

The rewards you get from the small and great discoveries you will make in planning and doing this by yourself are far more valuable than the convenience of signing over your person for several weeks.

Look at it this way - do you want to 'see" Europe, or "feel" it?

You can still make small and wonderful discoveries on your own with the right tour. Rick Steves tours are very good. I have been on three of them. I now travel on my own but wouldn't hesitate taking another tour if it fit what I wanted to do.
They have a great 3 week tour of Europe that starts in Amsterdam and ends in Paris. (Tack on London for a week at the end?) It is well paced, and there aren't a bunch of one night stands. On the this tour there will be families and many tour members will be first timers to Europe. They are rigorous tours in that you'll carry your own bags and there will be a lot of walking. It has been my experience on every tour though that you can decide for yourself if you're up to it. The tours are not about shopping and free time is built into every day. Another reason I would recommend Steves' tours is that while expensive you will be much more likely to have tour members both your age and your daughter's age. You are likely to see many anti Steves as well as anti tour comments. Planning is fun but there is something to be said for the effeciency of a good guide in planning the details when you're new to this kind of travel.

I think Rick Steves is an excellent company.

You won't get an unbiased consensus using Fodor's, because the entire purpose of it (mostly) is helping self-planners, plan their trips. It is very weighted in favor of do-it-yourself. Which may not necessarily be the best answer for your particular situation.

I have never done an organized tours but I admit that I looked into them for our first trip to Europe. I'm glad I didn't go for it. Honestly, Europe isn't as daunting as you are probably imagining. Its quite easy to get around, and with a little (or a lot!) of help from fodors planning can be half the fun. Can you tell us where you are interested in visiting?

Tracy

We've traveled mostly on our own but we've also done some tours. There are advantages to each.

Traveling on your own is the most challenging, it takes far more preparation and planning, but it can be more rewarding.

When you travel with a tour group an awful lot depends upon who else is in your group and how competent your guide is. We've been lucky but we have friends who have been disappointed.

I would guess that a big advantage of a Rick Steves tour for you would be that you would likely find people on it who are close in age to both you and your daughter. On our last tour (with Overseas Adventure Travel) the youngest of the group (14 people) was probably 60 years old and one lady was over 80.

Most of us view the planning as part of the fun and that explains why we participate in this forum. You and your daughter might also enjoy it and thereby greatly increase your travel experience.

I have only gone on organized tours as day trips. Honestly, as convenient as they seem, on your own is far better for 100's of reasons. The biggest is you stop when and where they want - not when YOU want. If a tour wants you to spend 1 hour at a souvenir shop on the outskirts of no man's land, you have no options. Many places that are interesting you may just drive by, but if you were on your own, you could adjust your schedule to your whims. Finding great little restaurants or having a close encounter, good or bad with locals are sometimes the best tales you bring home. On a tour, most of your encounters are premeditated and no suprises are going to occur. The tour co. reputation depends on consistency. If you are both healthy and can move around, you'll have more fun and if you do the research your agenda will be much more meaningful. Just my opinion.

Last year we did 7 weeks on our own. My thought would be that 4 to 6 weeks would be a long time to be with a tour. You can read how we did it here:

http://www.slowtrav.com/tr/tripreport.asp?tripid=1259

Personally we would never go on a tour - or until we were 80 plus perhaps. But it depends on what you prefer. We simply could not bear being with other people for any period of time and being forced into group meals, site seeing etc. Our idea of a nightmare.

We did 7 weeks in 2003 and made all arrangements ourselves, primarily over the internet. This was primarily Italy, but a little time in Switzerland and Germany and a week in London.

It may to an extent depend on what where you want to go in 4 - 6 weeks - how many places you want to see. Obviously the more you want to move around the more stessful you might find that on your own - and the more you may need to organise in advance.

How do you plan to get around - car, train, plane - again that may influence your decision.

Finally, it doesn't have to be all or nothing - you could always do a small tour(s) as part of a much longer trip.

I did a tour my first trip to Europe as I thought it would be easier and I was on my own and 24. Did a Contiki tour, which is geared towards young people.

Ever since I have been planning my own adn think it is almost as fun to plan as it is to travel!

With the help of people on this forum I think you could do it yourselves if that would work for you. Public transport in Europe is fantastic for hte most part, and driving is easy in most parts of France and Italy (I havent driven anywhere else).

You and your daughter could have ea great time planning this trip together!

I replied to the "addicted to Fodor's" post, and commented on this. I too am a big fan of doing your own planning. Since you are 4 years away from going, and you want to go for 4-6 weeks, imo your own trip is the only way to go. What a great comment about "seeing" Europe or "feeling" it.

Margie and I have always planned our own travel, taking maximum advantage of all the good advice we get on the Fodor's Forum.

But I wonder if any Fodorites have had any experience with some of the less standard tour companies, which might be good for a first trip. For example:

"Untours" says they leave you to travel independently, after they handle all the details like where to stay, transportation, and so on:

http://www.untours.com/

Cross-culture Journeys promotes tours that they say produce a more in-depth view of the places visited:

http://www.ccjourneys.com/

We've never used either of these, but have been somewhat curious about them. Anyone have any first-hand knowledge of these?

- Larry

What to expect from organized tours:

- You will spend most of your time in buses.
- You will spend considerable time with boarding the bus, deboarding the bus, and facility stops.
- You will hop from destination to destination, never going into detail. You get the "it is Thursday, it must be Belgium"-syndrome.
- You will spend the whole time with the same bunch of people from your home country.
- You will be pressed into a tight time schedule.
- There will be nothing unexpected, surprising or adventurous.

A compromise between organized tour and DIY might be a cruise. Onboard, you are pampered and the shore excursions you can do on your own (and save a lot of money).

And: travelling Europe on your own is SOOO easy!

Hi R,

You have 4 years to plan this trip.

Much will change in 4 years.

You can certainly do it on your own.

A week in London, a week in Paris, a week in France and 2 weeks in Italy would be a great "Grand Tour".

Come back in 3 years with an itinerary and let us help you improve it.

Enjoy your planning.

I'm a do-it-yourselfer, but maybe you want to consider some kind of hybrid -- part organized your, part on your own. especially since you're going to have a lot of time.

Spend a couple of weeks on the tour, and couple on your own. Maybe that way you won't find the whole thing so overwhelming.

traveler1959 exaggerates a bit but forgot "sitting in the bus waiting for that lady who's always late."

Depending on the tour a lot of the sights may be drive-bys. "See Westminster Abbey." Ha!

That said, everybody I know who's taken a Rick Steves tour has been happy. He has smaller groups and no planned souvenir stand stops.

But Rick Steves started with books about how to travel Europe on your own. (And only began doing tours after much demand.) Why don't you read his Europe Through the Back Door. It's a good introduction to independent (but not-too-expensive) European travel. You can borrow all sorts of travel guidebooks from the library to get a better idea of where to go and what to see.

<<What to expect from organized tours:

- You will hop from destination to destination, never going into detail. You get the "it is Thursday, it must be Belgium"-syndrome.
- You will spend the whole time with the same bunch of people from your home country.
- You will be pressed into a tight time schedule.
- There will be nothing unexpected, surprising or adventurous.>>

Not true. There is a wide variety in tour offerings. Many are geared toward special interests, could be music, food and wine, walking or biking through Italy or Switzerland, etc. or focused on art and culture with lectures from local experts. Many also feature home-hosted lunches or dinners so you meet and eat with locals. Some cover a lot of territory and on others you may stay in one or two hotels in two weeks and make day trips.

I do both independent travel and tours, depending upon where I'm going. In Italy our group had a private evening tour of the Vatican Museums and a private concert of Puccini arias; on another our group visited a ranch in the Camargue and had dinner with the family, something you would not do on your own unless you knew someone there. We also had ample free time to explore the cities on our own.

There are definitely "surprises" and discoveries and sometimes adventures.

You have plenty of time to plan and decide whether to find a tour that fits, do it on your own or do a combination.

There is a middle ground between taking an escorted tour and doing it on your own. You could make your own travel arrangements, therefore go from place to place on your own. But at each stop, you could arrange for private tours as an introduction to the various destinations. This would allow you to choose your own guide as well as your own hotels. With all of the help available here, why not price this option once you have decided on where you want to go?

So, therefore, you would for example, fly to Rome and be met at the airport by a driver who would take you to the hotel of your choice. Next day you would meet your guide for a private tour. You could do this for as many days as your budget allows, and then have some days on yourr own for shopping and wandering, visiting sights that do not require a guide, or sights where you will be provided with a guide for a small fee (ie, Scavi tour, Borghese).

Then transfer to the train station, travel to the next place, perhaps Florence. Transfer to your hotel, meet your private guide, etc etc....

As you don't have to decide today, you have time to take this test. Get on a bus tour of your home town with your daughter. Do the whole thing at the pace set by the guide. Then sit down in your living room and decide whether you two enjoyed that experience. If you did, great...if you didn't then chances are you won't enjoy the longer version.

For advance reading i endorse ricksteves.com and www.bedgeteuropetravel.com where on the home page you can request their free European Planning & Rail Guide that has a wealth of info on not only trains but packing, etc. and itineraries, etc. It's oriented for on your own travel which IMO is easy in Europe and a rail trip is a great way to go.

I'm pretty sure you would not want to be on the same tour for 4-6 weeks (I'm not even sure they are available for that long, are they?).

That's quite a long trip. I'd think maybe a combination of an organized tour for a week here and there, combined with renting an apartment and staying put for a week here and there

Lots of good replies, thank you all so much. You've given me a lot to think about. I like the idea of us sitting down together and planning what we want to see. We have a lot of places we want to go and I know we may have to cut some out. I always knew she wanted to go to Paris (shopping and fashion you know, she wants to be a fashion designer) I've always wanted to see Scotland and Ireland. I've been to London and would love to take her there, but it's not a top priority to have to spend a lot of time there. Recently she threw Italy into the mix. I have to admit that the only thing that scares me about the DIY way is planning the transportation as I'll have to plan to get from one place to the other and then getting around in each location. I don't think I want to rent a car, I'd rather us public transportation. Thanks again for all the comments and advice, I'm we'll be talking some more.

I always use only public transportation - trains, taxis, bus, metro, etc. I have never rented a car in Europe (5 trips, some solo). If you keep the trip relatively simple, it's really not all that complicated. If your schedule is flexible you can wait until you are in Europe and simply buy point-to-point train tickets as you're ready to travel. For longer stretches you might want to mix in the budget European airlines too. Your daughter is old enough to take some of the responsibilities. Maybe each of you can take turns planning different cities (finding hotels, activities, etc.).

Everyone else has already said the pros and cons or DIY and tours and given good suggestions. Personally I love to plan trips and for me that is half the fun. I have also done some wonderful tours and made some great friends on them.

I would like to post a little gripe about comments about being "stuck with 80 year olds." I see variations of this comment frequently. I know a lot of 80 year olds who can physically leave people half their age in the dust and mentally can contribute much to any group. Think of all that experience they have to share!

I have met some wonderful "mature" folks on tours. Just like any group of people, there were many great folks and also some grumps. (One tour I was one in my 20's, the most miserable were three gals in their 20's, know as "the joyful ones" by some of us. I was lucky enough to be able to get in with a crowd of wonderful seniors.

I have been the driver for several mature folks on various trips. The ones I drove were all real sports, wonderful conversationalists, and just delightful people.

Just remember, if we are lucky enough, we too will be 80 and it will happen before we know it!

Irishface,

I completely agree with you. Some of the best travelers I've met have been the oldest -- they've been doing it for a long time and have great stories to tell.

On a recent tour, we called our oldest woman "the energizer bunny" because she could keep going long after us younger folks were tired out.

Larry,
We did our first Untours trip this year to Switzerland and were extremely satisfied. So much so that we are using them again to go to The Netherlands (Leiden) in 2008. Our apartment was on the second floor of a chalet in Kandersteg, and we lived like the locals for two weeks.

An Untours rep met us at the Zurich train station located below the airport and rode train with us to ensure that each Untourist got off at their correct town and that the landlord was to meet them. A small amount of food, enough to get us started was in each apartment.

They provided us with Hiking and Biking guide and their Dream Book that contains info for the area.
Two no cost local tours were also available to us. A trip to a cheesemaker, and a beutiful jodeling concert. An Untours reptraveled with us.

The Untours rep is also available anytime during the stay to provide information or advice.

We also have done Untours and if I had 6 weeks to spend in Europe, I would use them and pick 3 or 4 bases to travel from while there. You could see Germany, Italy, Spain, and they do Switzerland better than any other "tour" company. Check them out.

I have traveled with teenage girls and you may want to factor in the fact that tour groups usually leave the hotel at 8:00 am or earlier. My girls would have been miserable with that schedule.

then i must be a teenager at heart!

I wish my tour group would have left the hotel at 8:00 a.m., but our departure time was usually even earlier than that.

Now that I'm older and wiser, I travel independently b/c I value my sleep and relaxation when I'm on vacation. I don't think I could ever do a tour again b/c I'm just not a morning person and it was a real drag to get up at 5 am.

I have traveled with tours and also solo and have enjoyed both for different reasons.

Sometimes people on tours just fail to do any homework at all and leave it all to the guides to explain.

If you do end up going with a group, choose one that is not too busy so that you can use your free time as you choose. Do as much homework so you get the feel of knowing where you are and "recognizing" the area's sights.
You will find you enjoy it much more.

I think you two will get much more out of the trip if you plan it yourselves. Also much less expensive and better lodging and food choices. Don't be afraid.

Hi
I went with my daughter ( at the time aged 19) on a Cosmos 23 day tour of Europe. I had deliberated on whether to do on our own but all things considered preferred the support of the tour group which meant that I had no stress in case anything went wrong e,g what if I fell sick or have a fall - she would then have all the stress of having to attend to mum. Also when we were on the tour she went out with people her age group and I felt completely relaxed. I also felt it was much safer. The downside was being herded but we didnt mind. She prefers now to do trips on her own.

Thank you, ronkala and Pammyjo, for your thoughts on Untours. Margie and I have always planned our own trips, so far. But we're planning on spending longer periods in one place when we travel, and the thought of allowing someone else to handle the travel and accommodations details has a certain appeal. Having someone else vet the apartment would leave more time for planning the more substantive parts of the trip.

I reported on our most recent trip at:

"Trip Report: 3 weeks in Bonnieux (Provence)"
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threadselect.jsp?fid=2&tid=35087107

- Larry

Redroses,

My experience and opinions: I've never done a tour or a cruise because I know that I'm not that type of person. That said, there are places and countries where I would not go unless it was with a tour.

Europe is easy to travel independently. I've planned 4 trips with the wonderful help of this board. 1 to France - where I had never been before, didn't speak French, and drove a rental car through the Loire Valley solo for the first 4 days with no problems. 3 trips to Italy, the most recent solo.

I would equate the difference of tour vs. independent travel to my experience traveling with friends vs. solo. My solo trip was so relaxing! I got to do whatever I wanted, when I wanted and didn't have to worry about others' needs, timetables, anxieties or personal quirks.

I realized, during the final week, that I was getting so much more out of the trip because I was more approachable and more interesting to the local people as a solo traveler. I also was far more observant to absolutely everything because I wasn't busy talking and relating to my travel companions (which you will have plenty of on a tour).

With 4 years to plan - do it on your own. It will be a much richer experience for you both!

Larry,
Untours in Switzerland included two week rail passes, in Leiden it includes eight day rail and tram passes. Other countries it includes a car. Untours has a couple of different plans so you can split your locations or extend them.

This summer was the first time we did an organized tour (of Italy). My kids absolutely loved the fact there were other kids to hang out with and they were not with their parents 24/7.

Many times people who knock tours have never been on them!!! (I would put myself in that category before we went, which goes to show you that you shouldn't knock something you haven't tried).

That being said, a 4 to 6 week trip would not be best as a tour (I have seen them as long as 4 weeks but personally I wouldn't do it). The best solution to me is either
(1) independent travel with day
tours in each city
(2) Maybe a 1 week bus tour of one country and the other time on your own.

Travelling in the summer with a tour group you won't be with 80 year olds, there will be a variety of people, some with kids (and quite a few teachers).

The biggest downside with tours is with the cheaper tours you stay outside the city.

Good luck, and Rick Steves tours do look like fun

<<I also was far more observant to absolutely everything because I wasn't busy talking and relating to my travel companions (which you will have plenty of on a tour).>>

But you'd miss hearing the experiences and viewpoints of other people. I've done a lot of independent travel and a few tours and have enjoyed being with like-minded people and have always learned something from them. On one trip to Italy I spent one week alone and two weeks with a tour that focused on art and met several well-traveled people who gave me ideas for future travel sites. One raved about Morocco and I went a few months later and loved it -- it was one of the most adventurous and interesting trips I'd ever taken.

Tours can be for a few people to several. As one other poster wrote, your daughter (and you) might enjoy the company of others, at least for part of the time.

I think a blend of independent travel and tours might be the answer for you, especially since you don't want to drive. Four to six weeks of togetherness can be a lot for anyone.

I have a friend who took the Rick Steves tour (24 people) in Italy and loved it. You could do something like that and then spend time on your own traveling by train, or by rental car if you change your mind about driving.

I forgot to mention that when we used Untours in Italy, we would all gather together after our day of independent exploring and have dinner potluck style under the pergola. We would compare notes and have great conversation into the evening. We had 2 sets of people come and go while we were there.
Also, we had a medical emergency and the Untour hostess and representative made sure we got the best of care. We have said many times since,"This is why we use untours".