kristalreigel

It will be our first time in Europe, and so of course- we want to see so many things, visit so many places and truly enjoy ourselves. However, based on reading a lot of posts already, maybe I'm being a bit too ambitious in our itinerary. Any suggestions on which ones to cut out possibly, or if this is actually doable?

We're planning three Weeks in October 2015 and haven't quite figured out how to split roughly 20 actual days (not including traveling travel time)

- Frankfurt (to visit family)
- Amsterdam
- Brussels
- Paris
- Nice
- Barcelona
- Madrid

PalenQ

7 places in 21 days - places that are somewhat far removed from each other - are you taking the train, driving, flying or a mixture?

Nice is an outlier here unless you take a flight from there to Barcelona of course. Brussels underwhelms many - could be cut if a place has to be (many folks like Bruges muchmuch better than Brussels!)

anyway trains are great for say Frankfurt to Amsterdam and Amsterdam to Brussels/Bruges and then to Paris.

Paris to Nice is about 5.5 hours on day trains there is also an overnight train.

Fly to Barcelona or take an all-day train ride.

Barcelona to Msdrid best on trains - new high-speed line is faster than flying.

For lots of great info on European trains and night trains check these IMO superb sources: www.seat61.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.ricksteves.com. www.whichbudget.com and www.skyscanner.net to see what airlines fly between any two cities if looking for a cheap airline like EasyJet, Ryan Air, etc.

IMDonehere

Whenever I see the question in the name of the topic, my answer is yes, and then I read it.

You have decide what you would like and what is important to you besides Frankfurt. What do you do or like when you travel?

kristalreigel

We were planning to take trains the whole way in the order above. The only reason I added Nice was as a stop before Barcelona. Belgium was so nearby Amsterdam, that I figured we'd stop there on the way to Paris. Amsterdam and Belgium I was just factoring an overnight night, maybe two.

Should we cut out Nice and go straight into Barcelona? Fly there if that's the quickest way.

We like to eat primarily when traveling and really looking around and absorbing the culture. Sightseeing for sure. Maybe a class in Spain (Paella cooking class, haha) I'd like to stay put in the particular cities that we are in, so no day trips or anything like that within those cities.

MmePerdu

Too many places, a given. So how to choose. Two thoughts. It's your first trip to the area so bear in mind, every time you move you'll experience unfamiliar logistics. Simplify by cutting the B-list places and save them for the next trip, giving yourself time to slow down and enjoy the experience while you learn how to do it..

I'd cut Brussels and Nice. But that's me. You may have other criteria for keeping them, so cut 2 others. Cutting 3 would be even better. Resist the temptation to keep more than 5, still too many for me, but better.

mamcalice

Depending on how long you plan to stay in Frankfurt to visit family, I would cut either 2 or 3 storps from your itinerary. Since you are traveling in October, I would cut Amsterdam and Brussels even though, as you say, they are closer to Frankfurt. Paaris, Madrid and Barcelona are each worth 4 or 5 days.

nytraveler

I think in the time you have 5 cities is pushing it - more is not realistic to actually see much of anything - given the amount of time you will be in transit.

Also you need to decide where you want to put your emphasis. IMHO for a first trip to Paris you need a minimum of 5 days (6 nights) with 3 days (4 nights) for Barcelona, Madrid and Amsterdam. Nice makes no sense - it isn't on the way to/fro anywhere and Brussels is not in the same class as other cities.

Since you have plenty of time to plan you have the time to research each city and determine what you want to see/do there. If you get the Michelin green guides it rates the various sights by stars and also tells you how much time (realistically) you need to allow to see it.

Once you eliminate the time to get from one place to another (1 full day and at least 5 half days) you will be down to 16 days of actual sightseeing - not enough for 7 different places.

And going to Amsterdam for one night makes NO sense at all. If you want to train from Amsterdam to Paris you might stop in Brussels, check you luggage and whip out and see the Gran Place - very pretty - but not spend a night and certainly not several days unless you have a lot more time or drop Spain,

vincenzo32951

Tough call on which to cut, since only you really know what you want to see and do. However ...

I would start by cutting any city that you have slated for one night. IMHO, putting in the travel time and reorientation required for one night is just too much hassle for too little reward. But that's just me.

kristalreigel

Thank you all so much for your insight- I knew I came to the right place!

I'll definitely re-work our itinerary. Will exclude Belgium and Nice. You're right- Nice, geographically, makes no sense.

Any thoughts on skipping Spain and just doing Italy?

I heard Italy should be saved for a different trip altogether.

MmePerdu

For 3 weeks, Frankfurt+Paris+Rome and maybe another place in Italy would make a very nice trip.

Have you told us how long you plan to be with the friends?

kristalreigel

Frankfurt only 3-4 days. I don't plan on staying too long.

Sassafrass

Luckily, you have plenty of time to read, plan, research, rethink the trip, etc.
Will address a few things.

1. Once you have settled on an itinerary, use the multi-city function when booking flights, so you fly into one city and out of another. It usually costs no more, but even if it does a bit, it will still be cheaper than wasting a day backtracking and the cost of plane or train to return to your original city.

2. You said no day trips, and I would not go someplace just because it was close if I had no interest. However, that is often the very best way to see and experience much more with less travel time wasted and less money spent. A good example is Madrid. The major sights in Madrid can be seen in a couple of days, but one of the great sights nearby is the tiny, ancient city of Toledo with one of the grandest cathedrals in the world! It is only about 20/25 minutes by train from the heart of Madrid. The lovely little town of Segovia with a castle, cathedral, beautiful central plaza and fabulous food, is also only a short train trip from Madrid.

3. All of your destinations are pretty far apart. Even fast trains or planes will still eat up hours of time. Some people do not mind, but IMHO, if you divide the total cost (including airfare) of your trip into the number of days you have, every day of mostly travel is costing a great deal of money and using up time you could be exploring some beautiful place.

4. Keep destinations grouped logistically to minimize travel and maximize sight seeing. Example: if you keep Madrid in the trip, it is only a couple of hours by fast train to lovely Seville. From Paris, it would be just as easy (fast train - two hours) to head South to Avignon as to Amsterdam. If you decide Amsterdam must be in (an interesting and beautiful city, BTW), then perhaps a bit more of the Netherlands or Belgium. Bruges would be a great stop for a couple of nights, then train to Paris.

5. Figure out the best travel and places you dearly want to see, and do not throw in places like Brussels or Nice just as overnights. That uses up time and money. A day trip from a major destination is fine, but figure, if it is not worth two or three nights, leave it out, do it as a day trip or (if there is just one or two sights there you really want to see), stop and put luggage in the train station for a few hours.

6. Allow extra time for jet lag into your arrival city. Keep in mind, it is starting to get cooler in Oct and days are getting a bit shorter already.

7. Sometimes it makes sense to travel late in the day rather than first thing in the morning. You arrive in your new city, have dinner and a walk and wake up ready to see things. OTOH, some places are so lovely at night, you want evenings there.

8. Lay out some of your ideas day by day, including travel times door to door from hotel to hotel. Later, pare things down to basic days and nights, but for now, including sightseeing time might be useful.

Example:
Day 1 arrive Amsterdam - 1/2 day to rest, walk, etc.
Day 2 Amsterdam - busy day of sight seeing, museums, etc.
Day 3 Amsterdam, see anything you missed, bike ride, canal boat ride, etc.
Travel to Bruges in late afternoon (around 4:00pm), sleep Bruges.
Day 4 Bruges
Day 5 early train to Paris, 1/2 day Paris
Day 6 Paris
Day 7 Paris
Day 8 Paris (perhaps Versailles)
Day 9 save stuff to see near your hotel for this day - mid afternoon train to Frankfurt, in time for dinner
Day 10 Frankfurt
Day 11 Frankfurt area
Day 12 Frankfurt area
Day 13 early flight to Barcelona, short flight, so gives you a good 1/2 day of sightseeing in Barcelona.
Day 14 Barcelona
Day 15 Barcelona
Day 16 Barcelona, early evening fast train to Madrid (this depends on train times), and if you can leave luggage at hotel, etc. but evening trip frees up the day for more sightseeing. Sleep Madrid.
Day 17 Madrid
Day 18 Toledo
Day 19 anything else you missed in Madrid or day trip to Segovia
Day 20 fly home.

I would look at a lot of things, like could I get a good flight from Frankfurt to Seville, and a decent flight home from Barcelona? If I could, I would fly Frankfurt to Seville, train to Madrid, train to Barcelona and home. I might also fly into Amsterdam, train to Paris via Bruges, fly to Madrid or Seville, train to Barcelona, fly to Frankfurt.

Once your itinerary is nailed down, your plan can be simplified to just days and nights
Paris - 5 nts, 4 & 1/2 days days
Frankfurt - 5 nts, 4 days
Amsterdam 3 nts, 2&1/2 days

Sassafrass

Just read the newly posted advice.
You could fly into Paris, train to Frankfurt, fly to Venice and spend the rest of the time in Italy, fly home from Rome. Would be heaven for me. Could also fly into Frankfurt, train to Paris, fly to Italy. Either way works, depends on flights.

You do see and experience more by spending more time in one country. Logistically, Italy is one of the easiest for first time travelers because trains are cheap, fast and easy to use, taking you directly from city center to city center. Absolutely everywhere you go, there is something wonderful to see and great food.

Honestly, that would be a perfect trip. Your other trip would require tons more planning with train and plane connections, etc. Italy would take a lot less planning, cost less, see just as much.

Robert2533

Since this will be your first trip to Europe, you might consider keeping your destinaitons within easy reach since you say you want to enjoy yourself.

Frankfurt, Brussels and Amsterdam could easily fill your time.

Paris is worth a week on your first visit, if not longer.

Barcelona and Madrid could consume 7 to 10 days in October.

NIce would be best when combined with seeing the rest of the area. It's too far removed from everything else on your list, and requies more than just a brief visit.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/17/tr...ance.html?_r=0

ParisAmsterdam

I also think you need to drop the southern part of your plan. Skip Brussels too. So Frankfurt/Amsterdam/Paris. Try to fly into Frankfurt and out of Paris. Save the rest for another trip.

shelemm

Why only cities? And mega-cities at that! It would be hard for me to imagine going to Europe for that length of time and not discovering the countryside.

MmePerdu

I think for a first timer, major cities gives a trip form and, one would hope, a traveler might venture out from there - day trips or the occasional overnight in smaller places. But we all started with the big picture places, didn't we? And drifted from there into the countryside. Unless there are friends to visit or particular interests, one must start somewhere and cities are usually the places. Nothing wrong with it.

shelemm

Whether there is anything 'wrong' with it depends only what kind of traveler you are. If the OP is the type of person to normally vacation in big cities for three weeks straight, then there is nothing wrong with it. But if the OP might be interested in dramatic castle ruins on a mountaintop or seeing rural villages carved from the bend in a river bank, then it would be an exciting break from city after city to experience the extraordinary beauty of the European countryside for a few days rather than visit yet another cathedral/museum/monument.

My guess is that the OP, by listing seven cities to visit to include Madrid and Nice, doesn't really have a very firm idea of the possibilities, so that's why I asked about the countryside.

I never start off traveling anywhere by simply hitting big cities, because that's not the kind of traveler I am. Everyone will be different I suppose.

PalenQ

Big city bases usually allow easy access to the countryside - take Nice for example - take the famous Trein des Pignes from Nice into the hinterlands of Provence - to really sleep cities with dogs laying around like I saw in Annot - you can hike between stations on this narrow-gauge toy-like rail line.

But often the countryside is just that countryside so unless into hiking, etc. it is hard to find much fun to do once in the countryside - trains and cars of course take you thru the countryside too.