Tom, when we lived in the UK (Beaconsfield near London), I visited Windsor Castle several times and really enjoyed it. I would also recommend Hampton Court and Kew Gardens. All of these can be done as a day trip from London.

You can't go wrong with the Cotswolds. It's a lovely area. We stayed in Chipping Camden on our first night in the UK back in 2004. Beautiful little town but just one of many in the area. Having a car would definitely make it much easier to explore.

In London, we've only ever stayed at the Ruebens Hotel across from the Royal Mews at Buckingham Palace. Back then, rooms were under $200 per night but now they might be more, unless you can find a good deal through www.londontown.com or one of the other hotel booking sites.

I envy you. I love the UK and would travel there more often if it was only up to me!!

Love the title; love the first paragraph. Love that you're well enough to travel again!

Let me ask you this -- is this your first trip to England? And will you be traveling around by car?

"Let me ask you this -- is this your first trip to England? And will you be traveling around by car?"

I went in high school. Virtually no memory except for a really good dinner at Simpsons In The Strand with my parents.

Also went in 1986 with my ex-wife and her parents. Trying to wipe that trip from my memory.

So, in reality, I am counting this as my first trip, since I remember virtually nothing from the previous ones.

I was going to pick up a car in Bath for 4 or 5 days and return it there (train back and forth from London to Bath and back to London).

Hi Tom,

of course you have lots of options here - London, windsor, Stonehenge, Bath and the Cotswolds all of which could easily take 3 weeks or so - the trick is to fit the quart into the pint pot.

I've never done this exact itinerary [why would I? i live here] but if i were planning it, i think that I might start by taking the train to Windsor, booking into a hotel, doing the castle, spending the night there, then picking up a car and making for Bath via Stonehenge. After a couple of nights there, i would follow the Fosse Way [Roman Road from Exeter to Lincoln] up through Cirencester, Tetbury [or is that the other way round?] Stowe, Moreton in Marsh, to Stratford, then down to Oxford, leaving the car there and taking the train back to London.

The trouble is, that to do it justice, you'd really need more than 5 nights to accomplish that lot.

Our day trips were to Cotswolds and Oxford with London Walks, which I recommend, and on our own to Hampton Court. Wonderful daytrip. We stayed in West Kensington and had no trouble getting anywhere.

Check out the Ceremony of the Keys at Tower of London; quite an experience. Also see what might be playing at Globe Theater.

Stay calm and Carry on!

Good that it worked

just a few basic thoughts to get you going . . .

• If you stay in the Cotswolds - then Oxford, Stratford, Warwick and even Bath will basically be on your doorstep. Stratford/Warwick are quite close to the northern Cotswolds and Bath would be a reasonable day trip from most parts of the region. Oxford and Woodstock are on the eastern flank of the Cotswolds.

• I wouldn't rent a car in Bath. I'd take the tube out to LHR and collect a car there. That way you could visit Avebury and Stonehenge and on to Bath. Stay one night in Bath (be sure to book a place that has parking). The next day drive up to a rental cottage somewhere in the central/northern Cotswolds. Anywhere from Burford to Chipping Campden. This would be a base for seeing just tons of stuff. More than a week's worth but 6 or 7 days would give you a good overview.

• I also wouldn't bother w/ Leeds Castle. It is a so so castle w/ lovely gardens. The castle itself is basically a wedding/conference venue. It isn't even the nicest garden in Kent -- by a long shot. And if you stay in the Cotswolds you will be close to several exquisite gardens.

When we were last in the Cotswolds we had rented a car at LHR and driven from there and then after several nights returned to London, dropped the car and stayed another week.

If I were to do it again I might consider taking a train to Oxford and renting the car there; I would definitely HAVE a car for the Cotswolds.

Lots of good advice already; I second Kew Gardens (easily done via Tube) if you like that sort of thing; Windsor you can do by rail; you can even go all the way to York and even Castle Howard in a long day by rail if you want to.

So much to see and do in London alone and yes I would cram as much in as possible.

I got interrupted by a phone call while posting and didn't see your 2nd post or annhig's or cheryl's

re the places annhig mentions -- all are in or reachable from one base in the Cotswolds.

I'd personally take the car back to LHR and drop it the morning of my flight home. --- That is IF you do London first. Depending on how many days total I'd fly into London for 5 to 7 days, then to Bath for one night, the Cotswolds for 7 days, fly home.

I agree with spending time in the Salisbury area- Old Sarum, Salisbury Cathedral, Stonehenge and the other neolithic sites in the area and also the Avebury area. But I'm a sucker for old stuff.

We read "Sarum" in preparation for the trip and it really helped to understand the history of the area.

I would bag Leeds (modern) and substitute Hampton Court Palace - brilliant - esp if you are a fan of the Tudors. You can even stop and see the field where the Magna Carta was signed (Boo hiss King John!) on the way back to town.

<<like Windsor Castle or Leeds Castle>>

the former, not the latter.

Dover Castle would work, but that's a longer day trip from London (85 minutes by fast train from St Pancras) than Windsor or HCP.

I would bag Leeds (modern) and substitute Hampton Court Palace - brilliant - esp if you are a fan of the Tudors. >>

nyt - "bag" clearly has a different meaning in the US to the one it has in the UK. you are using it in the sense "to dump" I think - to me it means the exact opposite!

I don't entirely agree about Leeds Castle - if the roses are out, it's really beautiful . but there are many lovely Castles/stately homes to visit in Kent - Sissinghurst, Chartwell, Knole, Scotney, Penshurst - which would you say is the nicest garden in Kent, JJ? one of these, or none of them?

and I'm not sure I agree about only needing one base to see the Cotswolds - you could spend a lot of time retracing the same ground if you try to see it all from one place. Ideally pick one in the south [say Tetbury] and one in the north [say Chipping Campden]. 3 nights in each would be my ideal.

I do agree about hampton Court [nice if you can use the boat to go one way or the other] and Kew Gardens.

Note, you can also reach Kew by boat, taking the tube back.

You might look here for a Cotswold cottage:

http://www.nationaltrustcottages.co.uk/

" [say Tetbury] and one in the north [say Chipping Campden]. 3 nights in each would be my ideal."

That sounds like a good plan. I looked at a place yesterday called Hare and Hounds Hotel in Tetbury that looked pretty nice (plus the name reminded me of my late, great beagle). Speaking of dogs, I should bring our Corgis to visit the Queen.

I just want to stay in Chipping Campden now because I like the name. I might have to add an extra day or two. I definitely have put Kew Gardens (love the boat idea) on the list. I get bonus points from Tracy when I find gardens for her (is there anything blooming in late Sept?). I better check my google maps to see what's near what.

I'll have to figure out if I want a week in London first or a week in the countryside first. Not a bad problem to have. I am appreciating all your suggestions. Thanks!

We spent a couple weeks in the UK several years ago. We found Rick Steves book to be very useful. I could mention several things we did but my trip report might say it better. We very much enjoyed Bath and surroundings. Don't miss the Royal Crescent and the walk to it. We missed Stonehenge and are sorry we did.

http://www.rimerson.com/uk/uk1.html

Rob

Um, Tom, with your history of rental cars, you do know the Brits drive on the other side of the road? Give fair warning to the days you will be driving. <smiley>

"Um, Tom, with your history of rental cars, you do know the Brits drive on the other side of the road?"

Yes, trust me, driving in England does have me a tad bit concerned. It's only about 70 dollars more for an automatic for a week, so I might go the "old man" route ( so I don't have to shift with my left hand. Just staying on the right side (I mean the left side) of the road will be a challenge for me.

I personally would not stay in two different places in the Cotswolds. Just unnecessary packing and moving. Rent a cottage in, or walking distance from, a village and do day trips from there.

All those places/gardens mentioned in Kent/East Sussex are wonderful-- but that would take another week.

If you stay near Chipping Campden you will be VERY near Hidcote Manor (just about the equal of Sissinghurst) and Snowshill and lots of other gardens.

As for roses - just about the best of all are right IN London. Queen Mary's Rose Garden in Regents Park.

And re Kew/Hampton Court Palace -- take a boat . . . but FROM, not TO. The trips up river take quite a long time so take the train (HCP) or tube (Kew) to themand then take the boat back into town if you have the timeand the weather is nice.

And whatever you do -- don't rely on Rick Steves guidebooks for England. He is OK to very good for a lot of places. But his UK advice is pants (translation - rubbish)

Tom, Kew Gardens is a botanical garden, so if your wife loves blooms and blossoms it might not be the best choice--at least it wasn't for me.

carolyn, we visited Kew in April and I've never seen so many beautiful rhododendruns and other flowers. Don't know when you went but we found it to be lovely.

Think about Salisbury or Cambridge or go south to Canterbury. Already looking forward to the trip report!

We really enjoyed Hidcote Gardens near Chipping Campden.

http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/hidcote/

We liked Kew gardens also. Just check the return boat times as we missed it and had to take the tube both ways.

We also stayed at a lovely B&B just outside Chipping Campden. A three or four minute drive at best. If that is an option I'll get you the info. Great Pub up Sheep street that you would enjoy.

Tom - glad you like my suggestions. there is of course a choice to be made - stay in one place for longer and drive further every day for your day trips, or split it into north and south which makes day tripping easier, but means that you have to pack and unpack more often.

<<If you stay near Chipping Campden you will be VERY near Hidcote Manor (just about the equal of Sissinghurst) and Snowshill and lots of other gardens.>>

whichever way you decide to go, if you're going to Hidcote, don't forget nearby Kiftsgate, after which a famous rose is named. and for an autumn "garden" the Arboretum at Westonbirt, just before you get to Tetbury on the Fosse Way, can't be beat. and not that far from Windsor are the RHS gardens at Wisley,which are lovely in September and very interesting for a garden lover with all the fruit trees, but they are somewhat in the wrong direction if you were overnighting in Windsor and planning to drive to Bath.

JJ - not sure about your placing the Queen Mary rose garden as the "best" in the UK - two rivals might be the Royal National Rose society Rose gardens at St. Albans and Montisfont Abbey. oh, [and to ape Monty Python] a third at Rosemoor NHS Gardens at Torrington in north Devon. but rose gardens are not necessarily going to be at their best in September.

annhig: I meant the "best" w/i the areas the toms are thinking about going. And true they won't be much in Sept it is just that roses were mentioned in some of the posts. (I'm spoiled - where I live I had roses blooming until mid Dec. )

And yes - for garden lovers RHS Wisley would be a MUST for sure - at any time of year.

If you do stay in the Salisbury area (which is lovely), highly recommend a stop south, in Dorset, at the Cerne Abbas Giant. You could do some real story telling on your ancestral markings there.

This trip just keeps getting longer and longer with all these great suggestions...not that that's a bad thing. Between cathedrals, castles, museums and gardens (oh, and the pubs), this is going to be one busy vacation, but that's the way we like it.

Right now, I'm leaning toward London the first week and countryside the second week, but that could always change after I figure out where all these places you are talking about are located.

And michele, I would be interested in the b&b near Chipping Campden. Thanks.

As mentioned somewhere above, London the first week makes so much more logistical sense.

Tube from your apt (an apt for London is no brainer, IMO) in London to the airport car rental, rent car for duration of 2nd week (all areas mentioned so far are easy, stress-free driving) and return it before boarding your flight home.

There are a dozens of good "home-base" neighborhoods in central London for a one week stay - and South Kensington is certainly one of them. My only personal parameters would be: as close to a tube stop(s) as possible (4 blocks or less is ideal), in Zone 1, north of river. There ARE a few neighborhoods that meet the above 3 criteria that I would not recommend but let's see what you come up with. If the apartment price seems way lower than most Zone 1 neighborhoods, it may be in a less desirable area.

I can't wait to read your trip report when you return!

If you go to Oxford, consider going on to Blenheim Palace. Churchill was born there and is buried nearby at Bladon.

If you go to Stonehenge, you could also visit Glastonbury (one of sites alleged to be Avalon) in addition to Salisbury (original copy of the Magna Carta).

Driving on the wrong side of the road isn't that bad because the steering wheel and controls are already on the wrong side of the car and that helps you orient yourself to the daft UK (and Aussie) driving system. Definitely go with the auto, not the stick.

"Definitely go with the auto, not the stick."

Yes, I believe the extra cost will more than make up for the lack of dead British pedestrians if I rented a manual transmission.

"Yes, I believe the extra cost will more than make up for the lack of dead British pedestrians if I rented a manual transmission"

LOL. Come on, Tom, you live in L.A. If you can avoid drunks, sports fanatics, traffic, and road rage, you can do manual!

Actually, I found -- and maybe it's because I'm left-handed -- the English manual to be a heck of a lot easier than U.S. manual, and I'm more than proficient at U.S. stick shift. I like feeling the road.

". . . maybe it's because I'm left-handed"

I'm right handed (totally useless w/ my left hand). And even so -- I MUCH prefer renting a stick in the UK. And it isn't just the massive ££/$$ savings. People just assume shifting left handed must be a bear. It ain't. One isn't power shifting or trying to pull a souped up GTO off the line. One is simply going up and down through the gears.

IME - the times visitors get into trouble/confused is mostly when they get over-comfortable and ease into a sort of auto pilot. Driving an automatic just adds to that sense of 'normalcy'. Having the gear shift sitting there on your left side is just one more mental cue that things are different and to keep on your toes.

Driving an automatic - an oxymoron surely???

They're glorified golf carts.

I second a visit to Woodstock, home to Churchill's birthplace, Blenheim Palace, and you should include Oxford. We thought we'd spend a few hours in Oxford and ended up spending the entire day.
We pulled out of a restaurant after dinner, driving stick, forgetting to stay to the left, and almost ran over a nun. It's thoughtful of you to consider the British pedestrians.

Just tagging on to add comments later - already looking forward to this trip report! Maybe we could even do a get together while you are here!

We didn't visit many gardens, but Stourhead, which is more or less on your route from Bath to the Cotswolds, is well worth a visit. It was gorgeous in May, and I'd think it would be nice in September as well.

Here's a link to our trip report, if you're interested. http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/roundabout-the-uk-p-p-the-professor-and-some-p-ob-may-2007.cfm

Lee Ann

Oh boy, another question. I just got off the phone with my best friend who said he loves York. Looking at my handy dandy Google train timetable, it looks like it is only a couple of hours by train from London to York. Would it be crazy (another of my many middle names) to see York in a day on a day trip? Looks like we could do a train trip that arrives York about 8:30 and then departs York at 18:30. Yes a long day, but what the hell, every day with us is a long day.

I guess we could do an overnight in York and then catch a train the next day, but looks like we would have to go back to London and then get to Heathrow to rent the car. Or maybe just rent the car in York and drive down to the Cotswolds and drop at LHR when we leave England. Sorry for all the questions, but as I get older my brain seems to have more questions than answers.

And yes, jamikins, a GTG could be arranged. A Fodor's Pub Tour. Jolly good! Plus I owe many of you a beer for all the info you are giving me.

We were in Chipping Campden last Fall and loved it. Cute town with easy access to other places in the area. Our English friends chose Noel Arms as the hotel for all of us to stay. Old with creaky floors, but spotless with good breakfasts.

Ooops! Hit submit before adding this about York. That would be a very long day trip from London. York Minster is beautiful, and the town is fun to walk through.

For a different Italian restaurant in London: http://irresponsibility.wordpress.com/2012/11/13/amico-bio-best-vegetarian-italian-restaurant-review/ which is a sister restaurant to Un Sorriso Integrale in Naples.

Note, you can also reach Kew by boat, taking the tube back.

It also takes a LONG time. Better to take the train / Tube to Kew then come back part of the way by boat if the weather is suitable

A pub crawl is soooo in the cards! Let us know the dates and we will take care of everything!!

Well I see you're planning a trip to England in the Fall. Hey, that's when we wanted to go. With two of us driving on the wrong side of the road at the same time, the Brits better get off the road. Since we're planning on going to some of the same places that you are, perhaps we'll bump into each other. Hope the cars don't get too damaged when it happens.

"Note, you can also reach Kew by boat, taking the tube back.

It also takes a LONG time. Better to take the train / Tube to Kew then come back part of the way by boat if the weather is suitable"

From the Thames River Boat website:
"Journey time approximately an hour and a half each way"

My emphasis, see also: http://wpsa.co.uk/timetable_new.html

This is a case where the journey is nearly as important as the destination. I get bored very easily on boats and usually avoid them. I wasn't bored on this one.

A friend of mine always started his trips in Bath directly from arrival at Heathrow. Windsor is next to Heathrow so maybe that would be a nice first couple nights, then up to Bath or driving wherever and finish in London?

I always use Priceline bidding in London but I know it's not everyone's cup of tea.

"Journey time approximately an hour and a half each way"

The relevant word is 'approximately'. The river is tidal so the journeys time can vary by quite a bit -- going in either direction.

The main reason to take the train out (to HCP) or tube (to Kew) and boat back is if you catch the first boat of the day you won't arrive until lunch time or later. It is simply more practical to get to the palace/gardens early, spend as long as you want and then take a leisurely boat ride back.

mtt: The problem you have is . . . York is fabulous, Oxford is fabulous, Cornwall is fabulous, Kent is fabulous, Bath is fabulous, Hadrian's Wall is fabulous, the Yorkshire Dales are fabulous, Devon is fabulous, the Lake District is fabulous, Dorset is fabulous . . . you get the idea. And that is without even considering Scotland or Wales . . . . which are both totally fabulous.

Every single person you talk to will tell you about a different favorite "Must See". So before listening to everyone (including your best friend) - you and tracy need to sit down and decide exactly how long you have for this trip. Then we can help you whittle it down to your musts . . .

Hi Tom,
The B&B we stayed at is http://www.bramleyhouse.co.uk/

The owners were really nice and the breakfasts were great. It is really close to CC so very convenient to run over to the pub for dinner.

bettyk, we were at Kew in September. I'll have to try it in April--I love rhododendrons. So far, I've killed three at my house. One is still living.

Tom: go with Annhig on Hidcote and Kiftsgate garden suggestions. She will love you forever! There are so many wonderful gardens in England, but these two are virtually across the road from each other and so fabulous!

Also, one more vote for automatic. Another vote for Kew.

Much as we loved it, (there was a vegetarian restaurant called "Oat Cuisine.") a vote against York. Do it another trip. I'd rather you take Tracy a little farther west to the borders (of Wales) to Powys Castle gardens. And then she will never leave you, you'll have so many browny points!

Or to go really overvthe top, and save miles, the Oxford Botanical Gardens are fab, and every college at Oxford has a garden, some much better than others: New College gardens are super, and I think I remember Worcester College gardens as another great one.

Frommany trips to England, last one being last year, first one in 1967, and visits to a son who lived in London for 2 years! South Kensington ismy area of choice.

Another suggestion, please make notes of names of towns and villages you run across in the Cotswolds. Knowing (and loving) your trip reports, I am sure you can make hay with names near Chipping Camden, like: Little Inkbarrow, Oddingly, Peopleton, Wyre Piddle, and perennial favorites of mine, like: Upper Slaughter and Lower Slaughter, and Shipton-Under-Wychwood. There are so many more, I can't wait for your trip report!

I don't think this has been mentioned, but having read and laughed along with your trip reports I feel I should warn you that Leeds Castle is nowhere near Leeds. The one is in Kent south of London and the latter is well north, all the way in Yorkshire.

Sorry if I've just ruined a perfectly good gag! LOL

I agree wholeheartedly with janisj's thoughts from on Feb 14, 13 at 8:48pm.

Any way you can just add three weeks to this trip??

It's a classic dilemma, replayed in billions of threads and posts from seemingly every other traveler (especially if a first visit to a country) in the Europe forum...

I also agree with janisj and bardo1.

When I was a kid, one night at a restaurant I asked my parents if I could have ALL the desserts. As an adult, I have realized the error of my ways and rarely have a dessert intake of more than two.

So, upon further review, I will cut down on the million places I would like to see and make a more realistic itinerary. York and The Lakes District and Scotland will have to wait.

It looks like we will have 14 nights that we will split between London and perhaps two bases in the Cotswolds, probably Tetbury and Chipping Campden. I am still leaning on London first (6 or 7 nights) and then the countryside (7 or 8 nights).

I will attempt to analyze what are the best sights to see from CC, and which ones would be easier to visit from Tetbury. Any help on this would be great. Thanks.

Hopefully, this makes more sense. Now, back to my cheesecake.

Like jamikins, I'm tagging on to this, and can add a few comments about Tetbury, being a local gal.

Hare & Hounds is very nice and has a good reputation.

Tetbury to Bath is a very easy half hour drive using the park-and-ride car park on the hill above Bath. Buses run from this car park every 10-15 minutes and drop you right in the centre of Bath, around 50m from the Roman Baths. It's not worth driving into the city, especially if you are not sure where you're going. You could see much of what Bath has to offer in one longish day trip.

Tetbury to the northern Cotswolds (via Cirencester) is maybe 45 minutes, and again is an easy drive.

Around Tetbury are some lovely villages (most with pubs - try the Cat and Custard Pot at Shipton Moyne), and as annhig points out, Westonbirt Arboretum is on the doorstep.

Places to see from Tetbury...
Bath
Lacock
Castle Combe
Owlpen Manor
Berkeley Castle
Chavenage House
Highgrove gardens
Gloucester Cathedral
the Slad Valley
Painswick and the Rococo Garden
Cirencester - great church, plus Corinium Museum
Slimbridge Wildfowl Sanctuary
Hetty Pegler's Tump
Woodchester Mansion

...just a few ideas to get you started!

Have fun planning, come back with any questions, and maybe we can have a gtg when you are here!

julia_t, what do we see on the 2nd day?
That should keep us busy. Fantastic. Great info. Thanks.
Pick a pub...we'll be there.

If you're in Bath it's not too far to Wells and its beautiful cathedral. Somehow, we managed to visit Wells twice during various trips to England.

York's cathedral is magnificent... and not too far from Castle Howard (of Brideshead fame...)
but it is quite far from your initial interest. Also, if you go to York you should go to Lincoln....
the list goes on and on -

yes, Wells is lovely - and it makes a great base to stay in, as we did for a long weekend last year.

however i'm not sure that it works with Julia's suggestion to do Bath as a day trip by park and ride - you'd really need the whole day for Bath, and of course Wells is quite a bit further south of Bath.

We really enjoyed our stay in Wells. Our B&B was right on the green opposite the cathedral. Great view across the green from the breakfast room. The cathedral was beautiful inside. Wells is a lovely town. Quick drive over to Bath for a day trip if you wanted to do that also.

Not sure if it fits the revised plan or not, but here are some photos of our Bath/Stonehenge/Wells/Glastonbury/Cheddar/Avebury trip.

http://ukfrey.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/bath-stonehenge.html

Good luck with the planning.

<<however i'm not sure that it works with Julia's suggestion to do Bath as a day trip by park and ride - you'd really need the whole day for Bath>>

I meant that if Tom left Tetbury fairly early, say 9am, drove the 30 minutes to the Park-and-ride car park then got the bus into the city centre (which takes 10 minutes)he'd be able to spend 6-7 hours there.

The free walking tours are at 10am and 2pm but one can easily do one's own. I don't suppose many of the attractions open before 10am though the Abbey will be and is worth a peek inside.

I meant that if Tom left Tetbury fairly early, say 9am, drove the 30 minutes to the Park-and-ride car park then got the bus into the city centre (which takes 10 minutes)he'd be able to spend 6-7 hours there. >>

Julia, i didn't mean that your suggestion to do Bath by park and ride didn't work - it was Gwendolyn's later one to combine it with a trip to Wells that I felt was a "bridge too far".

sorry I wasn't clear - I thought the park and ride suggestion was an excellent one.

Tom's Trip Revision #123...Thoughts?

First of all, Kim and Mary have jumped on board for yet another trip (obviously gluttons for punishment). Mary is studying up on her medical skills to make sure we make it back alive.

Day 1 - 7 - London (with day trips..Windsor Castle, Hampton Court, Kew is on the cusp)
Day 8 - early tube to LHR - pick up car - drive to Winchester Cathedral, Salisbury Cathedral up to Stonehenge and stay in Wells (possible?...3 hours of driving is nothing to this crew).
Day 9 Drive to Bath - check out Bath - stay Bath
Day 10-12 - Drive Tetbury (with diversion to Lacock and Castle Combe) and explore that area
Day 13 -15 - Chipping Campden (Oxford, Blenheim Palace, Hidcote Gardens...)
Day 16 - drive to LHR and get out of England before the authorities catch up to us.

Thanks!

Looks quite reasonable (though I'm sure it will change )

That LHR > Wells day would have about 4+ hours 'car time' plus the many stops. A very full day for sure.

"That LHR > Wells day would have about 4+ hours 'car time' plus the many stops. A very full day for sure."

Welcome to our bizarre travel world. I'm a sucker for big cathedrals, and since I doubt we would ever travel in that direction again, I thought one crazy day wouldn't kill us. Plus, there's always a pub waiting for us when we get to our final destination. Thanks.

I am following this thread with great interest as I am planning a similar trip in September. Of course I am very excited about going so it's fun to read about your ideas and decisions.

tom - i think that your Day 8 is mad. you are squeezing into it 3 cathedrals plus stonehenge plus 4+ hours driving [including the madness which is the M25 early in the morning].

i suggest borrowing a day from London, and doing this leg over 2 days. That way you could fit in another cathedral [Glastonbury - though technically it's an Abbey] and Glastonbury Tor as well!

"i suggest borrowing a day from London, and doing this leg over 2 days."

Hi annhig, should I do that, where would be a good place to stop? Salisbury? Maybe we could see Old Sarum after all. Then on to Glastonbury, Wells and Bath the next day?

I know, I'm impossible. Think what it's like for the poor people who have to travel with me...

yes, i was thinking to stop in Salisbury. That way you have a nice stop in winchester, [recovering from the rigours of the motorway!] and have the evening and as much of the net day as you want to see Salisbury.

The next day is still quite full - with Stonehenge, Glastonbury and Wells. then into Bath the next day. this gives you this for the beginning of your trip:

Day 1 - 6 - London (with day trips..Windsor Castle, Hampton Court, Kew is on the cusp)
Day 7 - early tube to LHR - pick up car - drive to Winchester Cathedral, Salisbury Cathedral.
Day 8 - drive to Stonehenge, Glastonbury and stay in Wells
Day 9 Drive to Bath - check out Bath - stay Bath

this has the disadvantage of reducing your time in london to 6 days but you could see Windsor as your first stop after picking up your car at LHR instead of doing it as a day-trip from London.

"Hi annhig, should I do that, where would be a good place to stop?"

See, I told you it would change

I'd modify annhig's suggestions just a little bit. I too would stay in Salisbury. But since Stonehenge is so close to the city I'd checkout the big rocks after Winchester then finish up for the afternoon/evening in Salisbury. Not much in it but this change would save you an hour+ the next day.

Next morning head over to Glastonbury, then Wells and finish up in Bath for the night. This would still get you to Bath by the afternoon of day 9.

>>would still get you to Bath by the afternoon of day 9 . . . and keep the 7 days in London.<<

Change is good. I like the plan to keep 7 days in London, stay in Salisbury and get to Bath the next evening. That way, we only have one stop that's only one night.

And, since I know how the trip will end (well, where it will end, I never know what's going to happen with us), I have booked three nights at the Bramley House in my favorite named town of Chipping Campden for our final three nights.

I owe all of you at least a pint or two for your help...and patience.

shame that you won't get to stop in Wells. I could have suggested a very good gastro-pub to eat at!

anyway, it's here:

http://www.thefountaininn.co.uk/

perhaps lunch there if you get through Glastonbury early?

shame it's such a long way for me to come for a pint!

I'm letting my loyal travel subjects ponder the question of whether they want six or seven nights in London, so Wells might not be out yet. I don't want to get overthrown before we leave.

You have to see the front of Wells cathedral. Frozen music. Has someone already said that??

" Frozen music." ????

'Chipping Campden' ain't nothing (I mean name wise, it IS a very nice place to stay)

How about Chipping Sodbury, Old Sodbury, Lower/Upper Slaughter, Upper/Lower Swell, Brokenborough, Dumbleton, Bishop's Cleeve, Oddington, Sibford Ferris, Nympsfield . . . all are Cotswold villages.

Ann,
We loved the Fountain Inn restaurant in Wells. I was going to recommend it also but had to look back through my pics to get the name. We loved the great food and the great staff. We ran into our waiter the next day, Sunday, on the green in front of the cathedral with his family. Families and children gather round the green to play and enjoy the day. We spent hours just sitting and people watching. It was a great day.

Tom, I'm so glad you got rooms at the Bramley House in CC. We stayed at the Canon Grange B&B in Wells. Their site is no longer up but here is a link to the B&B through another site. Maybe you can try to contact them if you need a place to stay there, if they are still in business. It is right on the green and a lovely place to stay.

The Fountain Inn is a great place to eat. I think all of you will really like it. Our waiter used to live in Santa Monica before he moved to Wells. He went to Wells to visit and decided to move there, that's how great a little town it is. The Inn is located right behind the cathedral. Stay to the right alongside the cathedral and then it turns into Saint Thomas. The Inn is on the left just down a block or so.

michele..thanks for the Bramley House suggestion. We have emailed back and forth, and Jane seems very nice. It looks terrific.

Still figuring out the 6/7 nights in London. Trying to find an apartment.

Hi, bloody Tom,
you might like this bloody trip report:

http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/trip-report-hidden-gems-of-england.cfm

Great report and thanks for saving us that Stonehenge money.

Hail to the Prince and Princess of Pasadena:

Now that your thread is piddling out, I'll add a few thoughts and things that won't take anything away from your "final" plan. As Janis said, "final" means "as of today"...

While in CC, take a short few miles drive (can be walked on country roads if you're so inclined)to an unusual unobtrusive, almost hidden garden (we were the only visitors)..Mill Dene Gardens in tiny Blockely Village... it'll be quite different for you inasmuch as it is more natural than any of the manicured sites. We thought of it as one of those "best-kept-secrets" type of discovery. Our "Small Talk" B and B owner in Broadway suggested it after we had been to and enjoyed Hidcote. His word "different" was quite accurate...foot bridges, rambling stream, cricket lawn wickets and all, and lots of trained overgrowth adding to the mystique...even a swimming pool.

By the way, Broadway which is very close to CC and may be worth a quick drive through anyway...or if you decide, a short, easy hike up to the Broadway Tower (1799) is an easy and rewarding one (see pix). Red deer and rare Jacob's sheep and photo-ops everywhere!

There is a friendly pub in the heart of little B'dway...The Broadway Hotel's "Jockey's Pub", delicious creative paninis and cold beer and plenty of horse-and-rider pix. Dessert next door at pastry shop.

Two other pubs in the vicinity which may meet with your approval are The Old New Inn in Bourton-on-water. Just a few miles from Moreton-in-marsh in the little village of Great Walford, The Fox and Hounds Tavern, a gastro-pub with outstanding menu offerings...served in the cozy fireplace room. Highly recommend for dinner. Discovered it in 1980, visited again in 2008 and have sent my family and a few other friends that way. All are still talking to me.

Hopefully, my pics below will illustrate further..Never a chance that your journey will be anything but exciting, meaningful and full of fascinating adventures. Anyone who has read your TR's for these many years will agree. Go, guys, and keep on truckin'...

Stu Tower

https://picasaweb.google.com/stuarttower/Cotswolds2008#

"Still figuring out the 6/7 nights in London. Trying to find an apartment."

Looking for help? Studio? 1 BR? Neighborhood(s)? Budget? (gulp! - be prepared to see prices 1.5X to 2X compared to those in Tetbury, Salisbury, and Chipping Campden for the most central/happening areas of London)

Thanks tower...we still have to share a beer one of these days. I'll buy (it's the "princely" thing to do).

bardo, yes we are looking at two bedroom apartments as well as hotels. Trying to keep it at about $200, but since we are looking at South Kensington that might be impossible, so am considering a less expensive area. Have thought about trying Hotwire (just got a great deal in Vegas..but that was just for me), but don't know if I have the guts to pull the trigger on a 6-day hotel stay.

Any London hotel/apartment suggestions are also very much appreciated.

I also am pretty sure (as of 1:49 p.m. PST today) that we will have six nights London, one night Salisbury area and two nights Bath before heading off for our six nights in the Cotwolds. That way we only have a one night stay only once. Of course that could change by 1:59 p.m.

Great pics Stu. Are you by any chance related to Broadway Tower?

I meant that to be a smiley face. Enough with the emoticons!

Yup..he's my much taller, handsomer and by far , my older cousin. Eifel and Leaning are my favories. London Tower is a distant uncle.

Tom..you may want to try for something in Bloomsbury...I like that part of London. I last stayed at the George Hotel, which may not come up to your princely standards..but it's a cheapo for London. It's on Cartwright Circle between St. Pancras and Russell tube station and a frequent crosstown bus stop...very handy. Many places to eat and drink, three blocks fro the British Museum. I'll hunt up the web pages and post below.
stu

http://www.georgehotel.com/english/index.html

seems like you can get their largest room for about 100 BPS. Quiet neighborhood, three pubs around the corner. "Dined" at all three while there. Ain't Church and State, but more than just adequate.

Well, we're getting there. We have booked:

Two nights in Bath at the Badminton Villa (I assume all prices are Net).
Three nights in Tetbury at The York House
Three nights in Chipping Campden at the Bramley House

All I need now is six nights in London and one night in Salisbury.

have a nice trip!

Tom,

I looked at Tripadvisor - "London Vacation Rentals", "Large Map View", "2 BR" and saw just ONE South Kensington 2BR at $200USD (exactly). There were many more South Kensginton 2BR's in the $250-$300 range, however.

http://www.tripadvisor.com/VacationRentalReview-g186338-d3621555-2BR_Chelsea_South_Kensington_TQ-London_England.html

There are also a few (not many) 2BR in the Bayswarter and Paddington areas for under $200.

We love York and have done it as both a day trip and an overnight. York Minster is one of the most beautiful and welcoming of the great cathedrals of Britain. Walking the wall is a hoot as is meandering through the town. The railway museum is a must-see if you love trains.

As a college town, we prefer Cambridge to Oxford. The principal sights are completely walkable and a hop on/hop off bus trip that takes you out to the American cemetery at Madingley provides a great overview and--when you hop off at the cemetery--a memorable experience. For military aircraft buffs, the Duxford air museum is Mecca.

We have been staying at Oxbridge Apartments in Kensington -- just on the edge of Earls Court -- since 1994. Nothing fancy and some of the rooms can be a little depressing, but an executive one bedroom provides you with a flat screen television, semi-dependable wi-fi, decently equipped kitchen and a comfortable bed at just under $200 a night. Two supermarkets are an easy walk -- we use the Sainsbury's which has great ready to heat meals -- and the Underground is 10 minutes away. We've never found gourmet dining in the neighborhood but there are plenty of casual restaurants in multiple ethnicities.

We've never driven in Britain -- once in Ireland was enough to know we aren't suited to the opposite side of the road -- but have had no difficulty in seeing anything that really interested us by using public transport and the occasional car service.

Hastily as I have a mission so this might be duplicate info:

If there was a light on in Big Ben tower, it meant the Parliament was session. JR and I got to see both houses one evening with no line to get in. This was pre-9/11 so i don't know if things have changed.

We loved Oxford and friends of ours loved Cambridge. I believe there's a Chihuly at the amazing Victoria and Albert Museum. Enjoyed tours to Bath and Dover (just to see white cliffs so possibly not a requirement!).

JR and I spent almost a day in Tower of London. British Museum, Museum of Art ending with a quick look at St. Martin's in the Field were great as well. In case you go to Leceister Square, it is pronounced "Lester" if you ask for directions.

I also loved Edinburgh ("edin boro") but that might be with a separate trip. More later!

We really enjoyed our stay in this London apartment (have used this agency many times in Paris)
http://www.vacationlondonapartments.com/index.php/our-apartments/180-south-kensington-chic-two-bedroom-apartment.html
Great location, charming outdoor deck area for cocktails and close to tube.

Oooops, sorry. Just looked at the cost which has gone up since our stay.

Actually, the 2-bedroom apartment could be more since the two couples are splitting, so if we got a S. Kensington apt. in the $350-400 a night range, I'd be happy. Thanks for all the suggestions.

Judy, I had looked at that apt. Loved it, but is booked the nights we will be in London.

"There are also a few (not many) 2BR in the Bayswarter and Paddington areas for under $200."

Absolutely NO reason to stay in Bayswater or Paddington. And especially not w/ you very generous budget.

$350 = approx £225 and you should be able to find a lovely place for that sort of money. I'd look in these specific neighborhoods: South Kensington, Belgravia, Bloomsbury/Russell Square, Pimlico - they are all well located, are nice, and will have a good selection of reasonably priced flats. Knightsbridge, Mayfair, and Covent Garden are terrific but may be harder to find something at that ££/$$

I found something that says it is located on "famous Bloomsbury Garden Square" that fits in our price range near the Holborn station on the Piccadilly line. I have inquired about it. Thanks.

..and one more that says it is in S.Kensington/Chelsea with "a view of Onslow Garden." Does not say how close it is to a Tube station, however.

OK, back to work for me. I don't want to over think the room (literally).

janisj - I agree. I mistakenly thought the $200/night figure was for the apt, not per couple.

Onslow garden is lovely and very near the South Kensington tube station. Bloomsbury Gardens is practically on the doorstep of the British Museum. Both are really excellent locations.

When you find a flat that interests you ask for the post code. That will be something like 'SW1 7AB' Then you can put that in google and the exact location will show.

We stayed near the"famous Bloomsbury Garden Square", actually just off Russell Square, in 1964, for 25 shillings ($3.50)per person B&B.The houses were 170 years old then, but whats another 50 years. Same trip, lunch at Simpsons roast beef and Yorkshire pudding was $2 including 28c cover charge. We also liked the Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese pub on Fleet Street.

Thinking of the car rental. Stick or automatic makes no difference. Tracy and Mary will be screaming on every right turn and every time you exit a roundabout. Kim will just keep his eyes closed.

The Regency Hotel,
100 Queens Gate South Kensington

I might be able to get this for about $170 US. Has anyone ever stayed here..

By the way I did finalize my night in Salisbury at the Cathedral View, so London is my only stumbling block.

Queensgate is fine. But for that long a stay I'd MUCH prefer a flat than a hotel. London hotel rooms at that price range can be teensy. For a couple of nights - sure. The extra space in an apartment for essentially the same ££ is better IMO.

I found an apartment on Prince of Wales... W8 5PQ with the nearest tube station of High Street Kensington. Is that good? Thanks.

Tom...I've arranged this transportation for you and your handsome entourage "whilst" in Chipping Campden. Enjoy!

stu
https://picasaweb.google.com/stuarttower/MaitaiTom#

Tom,

That apartment at Prince of Whales is an excellent location.

2-1/2 blocks to High Street Kensington tube stop puts you to most of central London in no time.

There are also constant bus options and a Whole Foods grocery on Kensington High St. 100 ft away from the apartment. Very convenient and a very nice area.

Thanks bardo. Hope I can get it.

Stu...great photo. It looks like the car that picks Tracy and I up each morning at the house to take us to Whole Foods so we can pick up our jar of Grey Poupon.

Grey Poupon can make a mess of the leather in that baby! But enjoy it...last I checked it was getting 3 miles to the gallon. At 7-8 equiv. $'s, your trip is already in the red. Be prepared for paparazzi stalking you,

The Prince of Wales Terrace flat is in a very nice location and is very close to Kensington Gardens.

However for transport either the Onslow Gardens or Bloomsbury Gardens locations are much more convenient if that is important. Both are on the Piccadilly direct line in from LHR and across all of London.

"However for transport either the Onslow Gardens..."

I just got an email, and it looks like the Onslow Gardens apartment will be available for our dates. Watch out London!!

Should I be concerned that I am working with a management company?

"Should I be concerned that I am working with a management company?"

That may be the first time that question has been asked . . . most are concerned if they should work w/ a private owner.

IMO it makes no nevermind . . . there are good and bad agencies and good/bad owners. if you tell us which agency we can tell you about it.

Onslow Gardens would be a great location, at least for Tracy and the others. It's quite posh, so you'll have to ace the entrance exam, but maybe your friends can sneak you in under the radar.
Wherever you stay, the pressure is definitely ON for an unforgettable trip report!

If Stonehenge remains on your itinerary I would recommend that you think about booking a visit before the regular open hours. This can be done through the English Heritage website, http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/daysout/properties/stonehenge/stone-circle-access/ and is the only way you can actually get into the inner circle of the Henge. If you visit during the regular opening times you will stand behind a rope line some distance away. When we went a few years ago there were about a dozen people there that had pre-booked. After about 40 minutes, we were the only ones there. We had Stonehenge all to ourselves for 15 or 20 minutes. Amazing. The only requirement is that you have to get up early that morning. Small price to pay and you will have the rest of the day for Old Sarum, Salisbury Cathedral or whatever else you choose to do.

"That may be the first time that question has been asked .."

And that surprises you from me. I guess I wish there was some reviews of these folks, but they are prompt with their emails, so the worst that could happen is we get to town, have no apartment and call all the London Fodorites to put us up for six nights (we do light house-keeping...but no windows)

And yes tt, I will sneak in under the radar with my more "sophisticated" friends. Looking at what we want to see during our 15 days in England, I fear this potential trip report will be the longest ever. Be afraid...be very afraid.

Is it classified top secret or something?? Which agency? It can make a difference.

FG Property Management.

When you are out and about around Chipping Camden, a place called the Fleece Inn in Bretforton was about as classic a pub as I've found. Stone floors, roaring fire, and a great atmosphere.

OK - Decent looking website. But the reason for virtually no reviews is apparently they are brand new.

Could only find one actual review - on yelp.

Do they take credit cards? What are the deposit/final payment procedures?

We covered much the same ground as in your plans. Here is a link to our TR - hoping you might find some useful ideas in it. http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/the-volcano-gods-smiled-then-frowned-uk-citizens-endangered.cfm

In addition to what I mentioned up thread, we went to Stonehenge/Salisbury Cathedral, touristy Stratford Upon Avon, and wonderful Windsor Castle on our tour. We loved them all including Stratford. Is it fair to say that Stonehenge is England's leaning tower?

What's calling out to you so far? The tour we were on included some plays and we loved being able to take our drinks to our seats--so civilized.

Our hotel was the Reubens and it was across from Buckingham Palace's garage! Was that called the Mews? Can't help with apartment.

Can anyone else give info about the light in the Big Ben tower?

I have booked the South Kensington apartment with the view onto Onslow Gardens. I might have to have a spot of tea with the Corgis to celebrate. Cheerio!

Funny, I'm heading to Europe in April, first to Berlin, then Paris, ending in London for four nights, staying near Kensington....I'll be sure to let write up a report when I get back. Hope all is well Tom!

Doesn't it feel good to get that last one booked? Now to the car and the airline tickets, yes?

I cannot wait for this trip report!

"Doesn't it feel good to get that last one booked? Now to the car and the airline tickets, yes? "

Sure does sarge:

Days 1 through 6 - London
Day 7 - Salisbury (with a stop at Windsor Castle after picking up car at Heathrow)
Day 8 and 9 - Bath (with quick stops at Glastonbury and Wells on way from Salisbury)
Days 10 through 12 - Tetbury
Days 13 - 15 - Chipping Campden

I might have to have a pint or two to celebrate. Now on to more planning on everything to see in all these places. Thanks to you all for your help and guidance.

I must be getting old. Try as I might (and I've looked at about 700 threads on the subject and the website), I'm a little (ok, a lot) confused about the 2 for 1 Travelcard deals. I guess since we are flying into Heathrow and getting picked up at the airport, we can't get 2 for 1 deals. Our only train ride will be the short hop out to Hampton Court and back. Am I correct on this? Thanks!

So excited for another trip report from you!

You are not correct about the 2 for 1. You buy the paper travel cards at a National Rail Station (ie Victoria, Waterloo, etc) - you cannot buy them at the airport. You can buy one day tickets, or, since you will be there for 6 days, the 7-day card is probably the cheapest option.

Print out the vouchers on the 2for1 site and bring with you; they will probably give you a booklet at the station when you buy your travel cards,but so sometimes run out. You show the voucher and the travel card at the ticket booth of the attraction.

Things have changed a little since we went last year and you now need a passport-sized photo for each of you (can print at home on photo paper and bring with you.)

HTH!

PS The paper travel cards are what you use for the tube and buses.

"You are not correct.."

Words I have heard often in my life. Thanks for the info!!

Oh gosh, that does sound a bit harsh now that I see it...sorry!

Tracy is right (sometimes), I am an idiot. Personally, I blame years of vodka drinking which must have wiped out my 2 For 1 Brain cells.

On the site it says: "Click "Instant download" or "Add to basket" to claim and print off your 2FOR1 vouchers. Then simply present the vouchers together with your National Rail train tickets when you arrive at the attraction."

So when the four of us go to the train station, we ask for two (two couples) 7-Day Travel Cards even though we are not taking a train, and we buy them there? We then show the Card and Voucher at the certain attractions that accept these. Is that right? And I thought I stunk at algebra!!!

I think I'm going to go down a pint right now. Thanks.

4 people = = 4 photos = 4 travelcards

2 vouchers (i.e. 2 for 1 coupons = 4 people) for each attraction printed ahead of time

By George, I think I've got it! Thanks Indy!

It's all the smog in L.A., Tom and the poor school system. (I grew up in L.A., so can say these things.)

Actually, on another forum I frequent, questions about travel cards are probably the most asked about thing to do with London. I think we Americans just can't grasp the concept.

Forget the "train" part of the concept. It has to do with why the discounts were created in the first place, but has no relevance for you and will just add confusion, lol.

Like indy_dad said, you will each buy a travel card. The travel card is your pass/ticket for tube and bus travel. Buy a Zone 1-2 one. The 7-day card will give you unlimited travel for your stay throughout London, although I'm not sure if the Zone 1-2 will get you out to Hampton Court Palace or not. (I'm sure someone will pop in with that info.)

To get the travel card that is valid for the 2for1 offers, you must buy it at a National Rail Station, not just a regular tube station. We went to Victoria Station (which is also a tube station - the National Rail ticket office is in a different place than the tube part) as that was closest to where we were staying (and *may* be the closest to you - we were also in South Kensington.)

Now, the one flaw I can see in my advice to you is the day trips I think you are planning on taking. So you might want to ask the experts if it would be better for you to get some single day Travel Cards for the days you will be in town using the 2for1, and then get an Oyster Card for your day trips. The Oyster Card is also a pass for the tube/bus, but more like a pre-loaded credit card in a sense. You "load" money on it, and the cost of each individual tube/bus trip is subtracted from the card. The advantage of the Oyster over buying a ticket for each individual trip is that you are "capped" at a certain maximum each day, so if you are traveling quite a bit each day, it makes the total of all that day's trips cheaper.

Hopefully this all made sense!

Thanks amamax.

We are only taking one trip outside London while staying there (Hampton Court) and will be in London a total of 5 1/2 days. Between you and indydad, I think I have the concept now. You're right, it was that "train" thing that was throwing me for a loop. You'd think I would have figured it out easier from my stellar education at the "Harvard Of The West"...San Diego State.

I'm a brit and this looks fearfully complicated to me. i know that it's to do with the fact that the 2for1 offer is promotion by british rail [or whatever they are calling themselves this week] and that they don't issue oyster cards which is why you need the paper travel card, but WHY NOT?

why can't they use the oyster cards like London transport?

just ridiculous.

mind you i still haven't got over trying to pay WITH MONEY to travel on a london bus. the very idea. the driver looked at me as if I'd invited him to eat something off the sole of my shoe.

BTW, today is the 50th anniversary of the Beeching railway "reforms" aka the butchery of the british railway system. 5000 miles of lines lost.

Car rental is booked.

Airline tickets are now bought (ouch!)

Tickets for night time visit to Buckingham Palace have arrived in the mail.

We're on! God Save The Queen!

It is amazing how much relief you feel as the checklist gets shorter and shorter!

Look out, UK!

That's for sure sarge! Now I can concentrate on more important things like which pubs we will visit.

Tom, in honor of your trip, I am finally going to post my London trip report, which is mostly about food.

Watch for it!

" I am finally going to post my London trip report, which is mostly about food. "

Looking forward to it since I haven't even looked into London restaurants yet.

>>why can't they use the oyster cards like London transport?<<

They do, for most stations within the TfL area.

The 2for1s are restricted to their paper tickets because TfL isn't in that promotional scheme (it's a national scheme to encourage offpeak travel - TfL doesn't need to do that and doesn't need to bear whatever cost there is of promoting attractions outside the TfL area, which presumably the national rail companies do as part of the overall scheme).

Annhig,

I read an article about Brit Rail a few years back that discussed the evolution of its name:
First it was British Railways, then Brit Rail. The next name, according to the author, would be Bri Ra. I'm still waiting

I'm sure I remember them being BR during a recent incarnation.

but I lose track [!]. And interest.

A little bit of trivia - we used to live in a house which had previously been owned by Dr. Beeching.

that didn't make me like him any more.

Tuscanlifedit, I'll be very interested in your London trip report, though we're only there three nights! Hurry, leaving in 3 weeks!

"First it was British Railways, then Brit Rail. "

It wasn't.

British Railways was invented in 1948 and rebranded British Rail more or less as Beeching left the business in 1965. The company kept the name for the following 30 years: twice as long as the widely disliked British Railways had kept its name and in many cases, the longest period a route's operator had kept the same name for over 150 years. It was then turned into scores of successor companies and the name disappeared.

Brit Rail is a completely different business, which sells overpriced railway passes to unsuspecting foreign tourists in their own countries, but has never owned or operated any trains, track or railway stations. It's never actually done anything at all in Britain.