greg

Since tipping in Europe is a popular topic in this forum, here is an article on tipping in the US -- with a mention of desire to adopt the European system of paying wait staffs.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com...15Percent.aspx

nytraveler

There's no way this will work - since restaurants and hotels are never going to be willing to pay a living wage to wait staff. (And if they make service charges mandatory - you can bet a large part will go to the establishment, not the worker.)

likeswords

I read this article as well, and noted that the author, while joining many of us in disliking the American system, just rolls over and reconciles herself to being stuck with it. But I wonder, why is it up to the restaurants and hotels to decide whether or not to pay a living wage - it isn't up to other employers who must play by the rules. What would be wrong with extending the minimum wage to everyone? Why is it impossible to do this?

Michael

The minimum wage is not a living wage.

Many upscale restaurants now include the service charge.

likeswords

Oops. It's true, the minimum wage is not a living wage at all. I guess the service charge is a better idea, but I still feel apprehension that the money won't go to the people who earned it. How did the Europeans get what we need, a system that pays decently for work done?

kenderina

I think the difference is in what the article says about not tipping the profesionals. Here in Spain, waiters, housekeepers, manicurists, hairdressers..are considered profesionals. Nowadays, there are not as many profesionals working as waiters than it used to be (more of them are now inmigrants, specially, at the beach resorts in summer) but we still mantain that consideration.
For example, in a hairdressers the boy or girl who washes the hair uses not to be still entitled , it's a trainee, so you usually give them something.

adeben

In Australia, the minimum wage IS a living wage, and has been since 1907 when Justice Higgins, in the Harvester Case judgement, declared that the basic wage should be 'designed to ensure that a worker could keep his wife and children healthy and comfortable'. He nominated certain benchmarks such as fresh food, clean water supply, ability to save, access to health services etc, and went on to state that 'Every Australian was entitled to every single one of these standards every day of their lives, and that, if we as a nation did not endorse this, we could not claim to be a civilized society'. This judgement is probably as sacrosanct as piece of legislation as there is in Australia, and applies to all workers, including those in the hospitality industry. Thus Australians are inclined to 'round up' a restaurant bill, but not to tip as much as North American folk generally do because they assume the waiter is being paid a fair and regulated wage. The current Australian Government has introduced Workplace Reforms which are seen by many as seeking to diminish the century-long standing of the Harvester Judgement, and, although the Australian economy remains very strong, that perception is likely to lead to the defeat of the current Government at the next election due in November.

Sue_xx_yy

The author failed to point out that tips are paid more or less like commissions - as a percentage. Real estate agents, for example, are paid neither a wage (living or otherwise) nor a salary, but mainly by commission. So, for that matter, is the government - they receive revenue, as we are all aware, from a 'commission' called a tax.(Okay, there are a few 'absolute' taxes, such as certain hotel taxes that are paid per room or per person, but in general it is a percentage. )

This is critical when calculating what is a suitable increase in cost of living. An increase from 15 to 20 per cent is not an increase of 5 per cent, let alone $5. It is an increase of 33 per cent. (Difference betweeen 20 and 15 is 5; 5/ 15 is 1/3, or 33 per cent.) For that matter, in real terms it is more than 33 per cent, since the basis on which the tip is calculated has increased with inflation (no longer can you buy a hamburger for 0.35....) Even without factoring in the increase in the base cost of restaurant meals upon which the tip percentage is calculated, 33 per cent is hardly an insignificant change to be expected just for the asking of it, no matter what the context, since this is not how the market works in the first place.

How hard one works, or whether one clears enough to live on is not the market's concern. I might have spent 6 months landing a tuna and laboriously making by hand cans in which to preserve it, but that info alone won't inspire people to pay me $15 for a can of tuna, on the grounds that even then, I'd barely be clearing my expenses (which would very likely be true.) Nor would an argument like "if you can afford to do something other than fish for a living, you can afford to pay me $15 for a can of tuna." People might nod sympathetically....then they'd vote with their feet.

People also have a tendency to rate themselves higher than average on just about anything - from how well they drive, to how well they tip. So I don't trust anecdotes on how much people tip. Besides, if 90 to 95 per cent of people are already tipping 20 per cent, as the Peter Post cited in this article claims, then wherefore the motive for articles like this one?

j_999_9

There are so many ways I disagree with this piece that I won't bother listing them all, but ...

I like the idea of tipping. What's wrong with directly rewarding someone for good service? Conversely, I see a lot wrong with the "European" system of automically rewarding emloyees with equal amounts when one may perform much better than another.

And how about this dumb statement: "Not tipping doesn't correct bad service." I don't give a d**m about correcting bad service! If a waiter or waitress is lazy, inattentive or surly, they get stiffed, and deservedly so. And, yes, I can tell the difference between problems in the kitchen and poor service.

kerouac

It wouldn't be all that hard to change the system, bit by bit. I would certainly patronize a restaurant that put up a big sign "no tipping - we pay our staff a decent salary" even if it were 20% more expensive than other places nearby.

chartley

There's nothing wrong with tipping for good service. The problem comes when you are expected to add 20% for poor or mediocre service. And when tipping is used as an excuse by the employer for not paying a proper wage.

One of the differences between the U.S. and Europe is that in Europe restaurant staff do not try to form such a personal attachment to a table or group of customers. That means that anyone will help with serving you, removing dirty plates, checking if there is anything else you need. It is dispiriting in America to have some unctuous individual who gives poor service, but will object to anyone else helping in case they walk off with the tip.

Personally, I prefer my tip to go to the whole staff of a restaurant, not just the person I spoke to.

NeoPatrick

If tipping were stopped and all restaurants adopted paying the current US minimum wage to servers (or even started paying DOUBLE the minimum wage to all servers), I can assure you that 90% or more of all servers in most high end restaurants would be walking out.

Good servers in even medium end restaurants often make over $30 or more per hour. In high end restaurants earning $100 an hour is not unusual.

ira

"And I'd say 90% to 95% are now tipping 20%," said Peter Post, of the Emily Post Institute. "And it's for the most basic of reasons: It's simpler."

If we actually taught arithmetic in school, would we go back to 15%?

j_999_9

NeoPatrick is absolutely right.

And, chartley, it's demeaning to say you missed my point, but you did. That's one of my disagreements with the piece: No one is "expected" to tip 20% for bad service; I certainly don't.

And if you prefer to tip someone with whom you've had no connection or interaction, that's OK with me -- but it's not for me. I prefer to give my money directly to the person who provided the service.

I see no reason to change the US system. Democracy has survived tipping for hundreds of years, and it will continue to do so.

travel_buzzing

"""I see a lot wrong with the "European" system of automically rewarding emloyees with equal amounts when one may perform much better than another."""

999- there is a thing called promotion, also firing if you dont do your job properly. also an interview process in which the best candidate is picked for the job, so that the wage is equally deserved.

the remark earlier in the thread "why did europeans get this system"- you gotta consider that europe has been working on its modern civilisation a lot longer than in the USA.

Of course its nice to tip, its just a pity its required or "forced" in the USA if you don't want to give some waitress a bad day.

travel_buzzing

neopatrick i disagree with that. there's two sides to every coin.
besides if they want to walk out, let them, im sure there are plenty who would be happy to earn a living wage.

NeoPatrick

Huh? What part don't you agree with? Do you believe most waiters would happily continue to work if their income was cut by up to 90%? Or do you believe that good waiters only make $6 or so an hour now? Or have you only ever eaten in fast food restaurants?

"Let them walk out."

I trust then, you don't care at all about a truly professional wait job in a restaurant. You'd be happy with a typical MacDonald's worker in a $200 for two fine restaurant? Good restaurants have a very difficult time now getting GOOD servers even at those "wages". You are truly naive, thinking they could be replaced with minimum wage workers!!!

It is funny how so many people think "anybody" can wait tables and do a good job of it. I suspect these are the same people who complain the most about their service.

Dukey

I can say from personal experience that not all waitstaff members are barely surviving.

I have a friend who is a waiter in a somewhat upscale Washington, DC, area restaurant who easily makes more than $60,000 per year. Not a "high" inclome in this area but he survives quite nicely.

Tipping is, and should remain, personal IMO.

Is it "fair"...no.

Do people who work for tips know this..yes.

Michael

If 90% of the wait staff would walk out of high end restaurants if tipping were eliminated, why is it that the French Laundry (and probably Per Se), the Herbfarm near Seattle, Chez Panisse (I am not absolutely positive about that one) and other high end restaurants already include a service charge in the bill and seem to operate with a better wait staff than most other restaurants?

NeoPatrick

Well, you have brought up a good point. But how many people complaining about tipping here are in the custom of spending up to $1000 for dinner for two? The examples you've given are extremes where people don't bat an eye at an extra $100 or $200 being added as a service charge on a meal for two. These places are so expensive to begin with, that even discussing "minimum wage" for the waiters is totally absurd. They are making small fortunes.