THINGS TO DO IN AND AROUND LISBON

Sorry for the long post above: feel free to email me for any more ideas and advice - liz.matt@netcabo.pt

When I get time I'll post some favourite meals, wines, beers etc etc.

Take care and "Bom fim de semana" (Have a Good weekend)

Matt

Matt, thanks for those great ideas of things to do in Lisbon. It's a destination I've been thinking about for a short while now.

My favourite is #7: Fill up with traditional pastries in "Pasteis de Belem."

Thanks very much for one of the bests postings I have read on this forum.

Thanks BootsN, I aim to please.

Now start the day with a bica. Coffee in a cup not much bigger than a thimble. Small spoon of sugar, it's so strong the spoon stands up of its own accord. But creamy and smooth. Have it with a Queque simples - a plain cake and that is most people's breakfast. Mine anyway! A few minutes later the caffeine is appreciable and any more than one and you'll be grinding your teeth with that anxious caffeine buzz. Over the weekend I'll be posting thoughts on Portuguese cuisine and drinks, how badly vegetarians are catered for and the fact that very few restaurants have non-smoking areas. That is the only problem with eating out here!

Matt

Matt,
Thanks for a wonderfully informative post - and at such a perfect time. We're just getting started on planning our summer hols and have decided on Lisbon. I know the high season is July and August, which we are hoping to avoid. We were thinking early to mid-June. In your opinion, would we be okay in avoiding much of the crowds then, or should we wait until September?
Thanks

Dear ElleD9

Visiting Lisbon in either June or September is fine. Good weather and less tourists yes. If I were to chose either then it has to be June. Why? Because of Festa de Stº Antonio. Lisbon's patron Saint. On the night of 12-13th June there are street parties in the centre of Lisbon with parades (somewhat in the style of a mini Rio carnival), but the place to be in Lisbon on this night is Alfama. (The old Quarter) Thousands gather together with song and music, up to the castle and down the narrow cobbled streets which are decorated. Hundreds of stalls selling beer and soft drinks. The meal to eat on this night, sat outside on pavement tables is grilled sardines: the smell and smoke rises from a thousand makeshift barbeques, you sit and waiters will bring over fresh plates filled with boiled potatoes, carrots and the sardines. Jars of white wine, fresh bread, watch the party pass your table, fado players strum their guitars and sing out. The best but busiest place to eat is close by Casa do Bicos, an old building decorated with tiles. But as you wind your way round the lanes there will be plenty of other tables set out less busy. Eat earlier to secure a place easily. This is when Lisbon is at it's best, and without doubt the best time to visit. Being during the world cup should Portugal be playing that day and win the partying will be double the intensity!

So should I be booking up that holiday then I would look for a week either side of this date, with the highlight being Festa da Stº Antonio in the middle. Be prepared to stay up all night and take a million photos!

Feel free to email me,

Take care

Matt

Matt, I have been trying to print your excellent summary of Things to do Around Lisbon. Somehow, I can't get past the first page of your posting. Is there any chance you can send it per e-mail to hwwolpert@aol.com? Would be greatly appreciated.

Hi there treplow,

I'll email it in the morning no probs. (2.25am here Lisbon time.) Another idea is just copy and paste the text into word and print it that way. Actually it's my intention to keep adding to this thread, (hey perhaps Fodors will pay me to be their "Man in Lisbon"? Moderators what do you think? ) inc food tips recipes etc etc, whatever I can think of amusing or otherwise as an Englishman married to a Portuguese girl living in the Lisbon area.

Thanks for your kind comments and stay tuned!

Take care

Matt

Just noticed a mistake - Santarem should read 1 1/2 hours north of Lisbon, NOT 1/2. Sorry. Late night - too much wine not enough coffee.

Treplow, check your inbox.

Matt

Hasn't gotten here yet. I'll try tomorrow. In any event, thanks much.

Hi Matt,

Nice posting. Thanks.

Michi

what is the weather like in Lisbon in mid-March? If we went further south in portugal, are there any outdoors-type things we could do?

Hi there lbw14.

Weather mid march should be early to mid seventies, I've lived here since 97 and have usually found that the weather hits a high point before easter, gets colder and wetter around late April/early May before climbing back up. In the past I've had sun tans by the end of March! What is your schedule and where are you staying? Let me know here and I'll come up with some things for you, otherwise please feel free to email.

Michi, thanks for your comment: I enjoyed making the post. As I say I'm looking to keep this thread current. I've found this resource so useful, I'd like to put something back in no matter that Lisbon isn't a top destination.

Take care all,

Matt

It might be raining or not. It might be cold or not. Snow is not expected.

lobo mau - you are indeed

Indeed
Why don't you show up for a coffee? I'll contact you for details.

Matt and lobo

Are you familiar with off-the-beaten tourist track things to do in the Algarve, or interesting areas/places to visit not too far north of the Praia da Rocha and Alburfeira areas? We will be arriving Feb. 11 for three weeks.

We have a car, are seniors, and are interested in day trips. Last year we discovered the wild beach and interesting landscape near Carapateira area, and Alte and the Roman bridge not far from it. We have been to many of the tourist locations over the years and are looking for some interesting suggestions.

If you have ideas and suggestion for the Algarve and off the beaten track places to visit (with car), could you start a similar type thread along the lines of:

ALGARVE: PLACES TO VISIT PLUS OFF-THE-BEATEN TRACK SUGGESTIONS.

Thanks.

Alas Michi I have never ventured further south than Alentejo: Lobo mau can you chip in?

Matt

Useful websites for those coming to Lisbon/Portugal:

National railways - www.cp.pt
eg Lisbon to Algarve: 22.50 euros, 3 1/2 hrs, Lisbon to Porto: 23 euros, 3 1/2 hrs, 17 euros.

Lisbon Metro - www.metrolisboa.pt

Rural tourism and B&Bs
http://www.pousadas.pt/pls/wse/wsewhom0.home?p_lingua=en
Quiant hotels and old castles etc.

Basic road map (Not sure how recent)
http://www.travel-images.com/portugal-map.jpg

More updates to come...

Matt

Sorry, prices for the train fares should read: Algarve 22.50 euros 1st class, 17 euros 2nd. Must Hit preview before post!

Dear Michi
I am sorry to say that Algarve is not my field of interest. I can google any questions you may have or ask to some friends, but I don't have first hand experience.

A Portuguese breakfast:

You will find a coffee shop every few hundred metres - I sometimes wonder how each survives so close as they are to each other. Anyway:

Coffee comes in two general types:

Bica - small cup of strong creamy black coffee somewhat like an expresso. With a small packet of sugar. Stir and drink in two gulps. 50 cents on average.

Meia de leite - Cup of steamed milk and coffee, a half and half, whilst most Portuguese prefer a bica a meia de leite is just right to sit out on the pavement table and watch people go past. 95 cents or thereabouts.

To eat - try

"um queque simples" a little sweet hard sponge cup cake.
"Bolo de arroz" made from rice flour and sugar.
"Pastel da nata (Pastel de Belém)" Lobo Mau's favourite. Sometimes good, sometimes excellent - especially in Pasteis de Belém. A little egg custard tart, best served warm with a sprinkling of cinamon on top. 1 isn't enough, 2 is just about right!

Depending on what you have and where, (local coffee shops are always cheaper than the tourist traps) you'll pay around 2 euros or less.

Lobo Mau, what did you have this morning? Me - it was a bica and queque simples...

Matt

Bica e croissant com creme, enquanto lia as noticias do Benfica em "A Bola" e fazia horas para começar a trabalhar. Please translate, I feel too lazy.

When we were in Belem enjoying a coffee and pastry (we just couldn't settle for our favorite egg custard tart and had to try more than one) we saw people buying them to go. They pack them in a clever tube.
Do they travel well....that is saying if they really make it far without being eaten. But of course, that is another matter.
Anyway, I thought that they would get a little soggy being put warm into that tube and eating later.
Anyone have an opinion.

A comment to ElleD9. July and August are not the high season in Lisbon. In fact it is the low season, spacially August, when Lisbon seams a ghost town. But, bearing in mind that many restaurantes are closed and it might be too hot, I follow Matt_from_England's suggestion that June is a good time to show up. His description of 13th June evening is excellent. While readind it, I almost felt I was there.

seems, specially and restaurants (sorry). Fodor's should have an after post correction tool.

thanks for giving such an excellent report on Lisboa and surroundings - outstanding!

Sher:

In my opinion ( and I am Portuguese and live in the Lisbon zone) pasteis de Belem are only good eaten while still hot or somehow hot. The next day they aren't that good, don't taste so good ( I don't like them at all the next day). That's my opinion and most of the Portuguese people opinion!!!

You know Pasteis de nata are just not the same. In my local coffee shop they are cold and baked in the morning. Whereas in Pasteis de Belem it seems like it has just come out of the oven. So all I have to do is get to Trafaria, take the ferry, five minute walk and start having my morning coffee in Belém!

And you know Lobo I used to work for Benfica... Shared a box with Michel Preud'homme after he retired. Still go to the odd game - I'll be at the Liverpool match in Feb.

BTW small coffee, cream croisant, reading a Bola for the Benfica news all before work - or something like that. Hey I'm not a translator you know. Tha's my wife's job!

Thanks. I thought warm was the best way also.

Okay so in the shops:

Buy Extra virgin olive oil: very cheap compared to back home. Just take it on as hand luggage and not in the suitcase...

Vintage Port. Again so much cheaper than back home and even in the supermarkets will you find thirty or forty year old varieties.

A bottle of Aguardente - a very strong local brandy: be careful it is like firewater.

A bottle of Vinho Verde. Not green in colour but referring to the fact that it very young and slightly sparkly - acidic too. Serve really well chilled, perfect with fish and seafood.

A bottle of Ginjinha which is a sweet liquor made from some small fruit like cherries. Sometimes drunk from a cup made of dark chocolate.

Madeira wine. Not unlike Port, sweet and smooth and thick.

Next, table wine reccomendations for your evening meal...

Matt

Matt - thanks for this thread, it's great. Some questions for you (and the other Lisbon experts) - I'm planning on being there this coming July. At first I was thinking about 6 days and then I'd move on to my next destination. But the more I research, the more there seems to be. So now I'm thinking 10-12 days. Does that sound like too much? It seems most tourists only spend 3-4 days. Also, can you recommend any centrally located hotels under €100 (under €80 would be even better). I'll be traveling alone so it has to be somewhere safe and easy to get around from. Thanks

Thanks Matt for all the great info. and everyone else too. We will arrive is Lisbon on May 28th and be visiting Portugal for three weeks. Plan to rent a car and try to sample the whole country. I'm just starting our planning. Have my Fodors, Green Guide and Rick Steves'. For our last couple of trips, I have found this website as important if not more so than the books. Your discussion of the Festa de Stº Antonio has me thinking we would do better to plan our trip so our time in Lisbon will be on the tail end of our trip. We leave the 20th. We could spend the last eight days in Lisbon and do day trips using public transportation and have the car for the first two weeks? Is that a good division of time? Thanks for sharing!

Isabel, hi.

I haven't actually stayed in any Lisbon hotels but I now of one on Avenida de Liberdade called Hotel Dom Sancho -

http://www.domsancho.com/index.html

I only know this hotel for I did the website for it many years ago, though it has been changed somewhat since. It was a family run business in a good location close to Metro stations etc and very convenient for downtown. The prices I recall (from 5 years ago) were reasonable but I don't know what they are now. Please note this is not a reccomendation nor am I in anyway connected with them. But worth checking out.

With regard to the amount of time it depends if you like to rush or take things leisurely. I've been here a decade and haven't seen everything. For me it's nice to take lunch with a half bottle of wine in one the restaurants with tables on the streets, watching the people walk past. Portuguese food can be heavy and filling and "doze inducing" especially with the red, so a coffee to finish and then a slow afternoon before going to Bairro Alto for the night. For instance Belem you can spend one day, as with Sintra. A couple of days downtown, a day on the beach in costa, it all adds up. I'd say ten days is fine then go on elsewhere.

Of course feel free to email and I'll help the best I can.

Take care

Matt

Thanks for the offer to email you Matt, I probably will with questions as I get further into my planning. Right now I am just trying to map out how long I want so I can buy my airline tickets in the next couple of months. You mention several day trips - Obidos, Marvão, Santarem, and Ericeira - all of which (plus Evora) I would like to take. But I will definitly not be renting a car so will have to be by public transportation. So how hard will it be for someone who does not speak Portuguese (I will of course learn basic phrases, but obviously will not be able to really actually speak or understand it)? I've been to a lot of Europe and am fairly comfortable traveling around, but less so when I'm alone (which I will be on this trip) and I've never been to Portugal or Spain (going to Barcelona in March) so am not familiar with the type of public transportation there. If you think these days trips sound reasonable given my limitations than I will definitly plan on about 10 days. Thanks for your advice.

Isabel. Something I think worth mentioning.
Many of the restaurants have half portion meals. I traveled with my husband, but sometimes we would each order a half portion and thought the servings were very generous. Both of us are healthy eaters.

Yes indeed Sher - half portion is called a "meia dose" Pronounce phonetically something like may er do so for about 2/3 of the full portion price and more than enough for one person. I think budgeting max 10 euros per meal if inc wine is about right and that would include coffee and a dessert to. Many places offer a set "Ementa turistica" tourists menu which will include starter, main, dessert drink and coffee.

For the day trips to narrow things down I would list Sintra, Obidos and Evora. I think Marvao will be hard to get to without a car - even with it is a bit of a pain but well worth it though. If you learn a few basics it will get you far, a lot of people of my generation (33yrs) speak good English here - it is not like Spain where sometimes you will be ignored. I will look into Public transport to the places mentioned, (Sintra is easy though, just a train ride away). I know there are some companies that do day trips and I'll look into that and post details here: should I forget just nag me...

Look foward to speaking soon,

Matt

Hi there TeresaJAT

It would be a real shame to miss the celebrations of Festa de Stº Antonio so I think your suggestion about splitting time up like that is fine. Plenty to fill up your 8 days in Lisbon especially as you may be a little hung over on the day after St Ant. (Forgive my presumption that you drink - it seems the whole of Lisbon does this night.) There is a 99% chance that I'll be in the crowd, my elder daughter atop my shoulders, clutching my wife's hand strolling with the masses up to the castle and down the narrow streets. It is a great party - and as other's have mentioned it perhaps if there are enough fodorites coming over for it we could arrange something and all meet up and all go together. Get "Lobo Mau" out as well. (But hey this is the internet and there are a million nutcases out there...

You don't need a hire car in Lisbon, and driving in the capital can be a little "sketchy" hence the reason I drive a battered old Land Rover Discovery, people actually notice me instead of cutting me up as used to happen in my last car

I don't know Rick Steve's books but I see in a thread that he ruins restaurants: oh boy my favourite in Lisbon is 2 minutes from the main tourist area and yet no tourists go there for it is hidden under an archway. It is a real local's only place with old shop workers from the garment street eating there - long tables where everyone squeezes in together - you'll soon be invited into a conversation, and it is so cheap. I may reveal its identity so long as readers of this thread promise to keep it to themselves...

Please feel free to email, or post any more Q's here.

Take care,

Matt

I don't want to impose myself, but I asked Little Red Riding Hood if she wanted to go to Alfama on Santo Antonio's night with Matt from England, daughter, wife and possibly other friends and she is loving the idea. Keep in touch. We have 4 months to organize something

Well, we are still planning our second Portugal trip for late Fall, probably October.
So both of you are invited for a drink and dinner when we are in Lisbon Matt and Lobo(I know that is really not your name).
It is the least we can do for all of the great information.
I think we are kind of old for you guys, though. We are 60/59. Do you think it matters?
Maybe this will get Matt to reveal the name of the restaurant!

Accepted

Lobo, do you know the Art Nouveau Animatografo do Rossio on 225 - 229 Rua dos Sapateiros?

http://www.urbe-nupi.pt/urban_links/Banco_de_imagens/ingles/foto5.htm

Forget the fact of what it is now, it was once Lisbon's first cinema opened in 1907. Okay if you go there, (not inside I hasten to add unless purely for research purposes ) look across the street. It's the little place nearest the archway... no more clues than that. I don't want this Rick Steve muppet turning up and ruining it for me! You have to eat the jaquinzinhos with bean and tomato rice with a jarro of the house white. So cheap it makes me laugh with a few slices of Broa (corn bread) to mop up the sauce. You know I have some amusing stories to tell about this place!

How does lunch sound in a couple of weeks?

Matt

And yes Sher your proposal sounds perfect. If you can put up with a young whipper snapper like me In fact I'll go as far as to suggest a trip on the tourist tram after lunch and we'll have a great day out.

Look foward to it.

Matt

We do too. Let's just hope we make it there.

Isabel: Approximate times for train journeys and relevant stations:

Lisboa Entrecampos to Evora - 2hrs +/-
Lisboa Entrecampos to Marvao Beira - 4hrs +/-
Lisboa Entrecampos to Obidos - 2 hrs 15 +/-
Lisboa Santa Apolonia to Santarem - 1 hr +/-

So each are reachable, though the trek to Marvao will be long and only worth doing if staying overnight. Bearing in mind that Marvao is also up a mountain and a small village you'd have to take a taxi too, in fact I cannot recall having seen the railway station nearby.

For further details re trains go to www.cp.pt and choose the english version.

I'll look into the tour options a bit later.

Speak soon,

Matt

Hello Matt,

I have been enjoying reading this since you first posted. Great information! I will save this for our next trip to Portugal. Both lobo_mau and Sher offered helpful info as we planned our trip there last July so this thread will be added to the ones I saved with their information.

Thanks so much!

Hi there Marianna,

Welcome aboard! To be honest I'm no expert here and my opinion re Portugal and Lisbon is only as a foreigner living here. It helps to have people like Lobo Mau to keep an eye on me should I offer wrong information.

As a bit of a traveller myself - regular visits to NYC, Africa every now and then and England I like to see up to date info and on a board as this it is the only place to get it. Guide books are only current at the time of writing. Things change, especially here in Lisbon where things can be confusing and chaotic at times.

Don't let me hog the bandwidth, if there's anything you wish to add please jump in - it'll be nice to keep this thread ongoing as a vital resource for anyone coming to Portugal. Read all the books first then come here!

Look foward to speaking soon,

Best regards

Matt

Matt thank you so much - that is just the kind of information I need. I've bookmarked the train site. I'll definitly have more questions later but I'm now sure I want at least 10 days, so I can book my airline tickets in the next month. Oh and thanks for the hotel tip, it looks great, I'd book it now but my dates aren't firm yet.

Sher - thanks for that tip, it will be most useful. This will only be the second trip I've taken where I'm completely solo (not even meeting someone for part of the trip) so figuring out the eating/evening things is something I still have to work on. Sounds like Portugal is a pretty inexpensive place to eat.

Hi Matt
I think we have a lot in common, I am not a huge fan of pip shows either, but I'm a big fan of jaquinzinhos with beans and rice
I know the place you mentioned. A few years ago I went to play cards in Gremio Lusitano. They have a salao just over Arco de Bandeira with beautiful views over Rossio square.
I look forward to ear the stories you have about the place

Hey Lobo, can you email me again, I've misplaced your last one and I was wanting to arrange something. Time is hectic for me here at the moment...

Matt

Hi Matt--

Jumping in late on this thread. We are just planning a last minute trip to Lisbon in the beginning of March. I loved your list of possibilities for things to do.

Do you realistically think we could keep ourselves occupied for 7-8 nights in Lisbon? Normally we give cities about 4 days and then head out with a rental car. This trip we're trying to keep transportation costs down and would be looking at doing day trips from Lisbon. Or, would we be better off with 3 or 4 nights in Lisbon and then just getting a car and heading off for a few days? Finally, about Sintra. From what I've read, I wouldn't want a car there anyway and public transportation is the way to go. Would you suggest one or two days there, an overnight or a day trip from Lisbon or what?

I'll be awaiting your response. Thanks so much.

Hi Julies,

Welcome to this Lisbon thread. I guess you are looking foward to the holiday so feel free to ask as many Q's as you have.

So first let's deal with Sintra. You could easily do 2 days, 1 day in Pena Palaca, another strolling through the extensive gardens and Moorish castle ruins, and at some stage wandering around the village lower down the mountain. Don't forget to buy a pack of Queijadinhas de Sintra. Take the train - Linha da Sintra which is more or less 1 hour each way - so keep your place in Lisbon and just do 2 day trips leaving early and returning late, but no too late as there have been problems with crime on this line. Give me a couple of days and I'll give you exact details of this railway trip.

If renting a car, then you could easily plan a few day trips whilst staying in Lisbon. Perhaps to Obidos, Evora, and Ericeira. If really determined a trip out to Marvao and Castelo de Vide, but should you want to do this then let me know and I'll post better instructions on how to drive there.

So I think the idea of basing yourselves in Lisbon is fine, then taking day trips should you become a little bored of the city. But there is plenty to do in Lisbon if you don't rush around and take it easy.

I'm always reachable via email so feel free to ask Qs here or there.

Look foward to speaking soon,

Matt

Here is a very nice site with the most beautiful places to stay while in Portugal. Have a look at it as it's very well done and it covers the whole country ( Spain and Italy as well): www.secretplaces.com

Hope you all have a nice stay here!!!

Okay some more transport links:

http://www.fertagus.pt/
The cross Tejo (Tagus) train service.

http://www.tsuldotejo.pt/
Bus services

http://www.rodoviariadelisboa.pt/
Bus services including airport shuttle bus and hire.

http://www.transtejo.pt/
Ferries across the Tejo (Tagus) and river cruises

Well worth exploring the various sites to find all kinds of services which suit your travel needs in and around Lisbon.

Everyone have a good weekend?

Matt

Oh and I am forgetting:

http://www.carris.pt/en/index.php

Carris operates buses and the old trams in Lisbon including the red tourist trams, as well as the newer modern tram between Lisbon and Belem.

http://www.carris.pt/en/index.php?area=servicos&subarea=servicos_tur_elect

This page details the route of the tourist trams, shame the photo is lousy. Well worth looking here.

Thanks Tere for jumping in, I'm sorry if I get anything wrong, please let me know.

Matt

I've just returned from a very sweet afternoon in Sintra including travesseiros and queijadas in Periquita shop
I think visitors should avoid Sintra during weekends, even during low season, because it is packed with locals, like me

MMnnn Periquita, my favourite table wine - just had a bottle with dinner.

Lol Matt, you know more about Portugal than I do!! I am learning some things with you . Your posts are excellent! Lobo Mau is making me hungry , I can't hear or read the words "Periquita travesseiros"......

Sorry Lobo, I just saw Periquita and thought WINE DOH! Now what were we talking about, ah yes, wine wasn't it...?

it wasn't wine...

For Art Lovers visiting Lisbon...

Centro Cultural de Belém (www.ccb.pt) is hosting a Frida Kahlo exhibition from Feb 24th through to 21st May this year. Translated from the official site it states "The largest and most complete exhibition of Frida Kahlo in recent decades". That's something my wife and I will be spending a couple of days at. And CCB has a very nice coffee shop with large open air patio overlooking the River Tejo (Tagus). You can easily spend an hour in the sun watching cruise ships easing out under Ponte 25 de Abril.

So, see you there?

Matt

Some Embassy details:

British:
http://www.britishembassy.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1053700030207

US:
http://lisbon.usembassy.gov/

Canada
http://www.dfait-maeci.gc.ca/canada-europa/portugal/

Matt

A great interactive road map of Lisbon can be found here:

http://www.hot-maps.de/europe/portugal/lisbon/homefr.html

7 - Take a cab or tram to Belem. A MUST SEE is Mosteiro dos Geronimos. The resting place of Vasco da Gama. UNESCO world heritage site. Monument to the Discoveries across the park and Belem Tower. (Tor de Belem) Fill up with traditional pastries in "Pasteis de Belem." Just ask someone, everyone knows where it is.

Okay so Belem is a MUST SEE. To give you an idea of what The Jeronimos Monastery and Belem Tower look like go to this website:

http://www.mosteirojeronimos.pt/english/index.html

It has amazing 360º panoramic views of interiors exteriors etc. You can spend a good amount of time just within the site so imagine what it'll be like when you are actually here!

Take care

Matt

It's funny Matt mentioned Lisboa-Entrecampos railways station. I am watching Lisbon-Entrecampos from my office's window. Should you take or leave a train in Lisbon-Entrecampos, please raise and wave your hand and I'll know you are a Fodorite

I mentioned under day trips the possibility of visiting the Quinta of José Maria Fonseca - here's a link to their website, (which sadly appears to be a very amateur effort for such a respected company) anyway, it has the contact details for the tours and a list of their wines. Ones that I have in my own collection are the Periquita and Periquita Clássicos. The American Fodorites here may well be familiar with Lancers.

http://www.jmf.pt/defaulten.htm

Matt

Thanks Matt,
Wouldn't dream of having a car in a major city if we can help it. We really love the flexibility it allows us when seeing a country but do like to use local transportation when we can. This thread has been very helpful, I'm cutting and pasting like crazy. I appreciate all the great info.! Will have plenty of questions later as I get things more organized (which you and other are helping me do.)Teresa

JMF site is very basic indeed. I noticed 2 wines called "alambre". Just as a curiosity, the name honours it's colour, amber. The name alambre comes from Arabic and has the same root as Alhambra in the ancient kingdom of Granada. Those who have been there should remember the honey colour of the Mosque's external walls.

Before somebody corrects me, I must say that Alhambra is not a Mosque. You should forgive me at this early hour of the morning.

For those intending to take trips to Obidos, or stay more than a day have a look at the official town website:

http://en.cm-obidos.pt/

I think of particular interest will be the photo album to give you a small taster:

http://en.cm-obidos.pt/custom/vpage.aspx?pg=photos_obidos&m=1

And should you have definately decided to visit then my suggestion is to take a guided tour of the town, details of which can be found here:

http://en.cm-obidos.pt//custom/vpage.aspx?pg=guided_tours_obidos&m=1

Take care

Matt

Weather forecasts for Lisbon: http://english.wunderground.com/global/stations/08536.html

But if you want to know what it's like just email me and I'll look out of my window

Matt

Tours whilst in Lisbon: a few sites

http://www.sunnytours-pt.com/tour.htm

http://www.portugalvirtual.pt/50travtransp/cityrama/index.html

http://www.lisboatours.com/index.html

http://www.toursforyou.pt/Eng/indexeng.htm

http://www.grayline.com/franchise.cfm/action/details/id/41

Please note that I am not recommending any of these services but for those of you wanting to take tours within Lisbon or further afield, say perhaps Obidos, then it is worth checking each of these operators and comparing their services and prices.

Matt

Okay: let's see who Matt from England is -

http://www.smartgroups.com/picvault/27892730.jpg/saf38.jpg

I'm on the right . Actually this was taken with a Maasai Elder in Tanzania with whom I became friends: his name is Matayu - swahili for Matthew.

Hey, lobo is this you?

http://sotaodaines.chrome.pt/Sotao/lobo7.jpg

Yes, that's me How did you get my picture???
As you can see, I already have a lot of grey and white hair

I had a lot of fun prepairing my
"McGyver's Guide to survival in Portugal" for another thread. I think it's worthwhile to post it again. In spite of it's light style, I think it has some good advice. It was writen as addressed to a lady, but valid for men with minor corrections:
1 - class A roads (toll) are good and safe - if you have to drive a long distance (Lisbon to Porto, Lisbon to Algarve, etc...) do not hesitate, unless you want to take the scenic road. Maybe some drivers drive fast but you have only to take the right most lane, drive at your speed (less than 120 kph) and don't worry about the others. Check http://www.brisa.pt for motorway network.
2 - regional, rural roads are completely anti-stress, I can't imagine you may have a problem in there.
3 - Avoid approaching major centers at early hours of working days or leaving them by the end of the day.
4 - Avoid if possible driving at A class or IP class roads during the begining or the ending of long weekends or during festive days. It's not a question of driving style, but statistics, if there are 10 times more cars then the usual, a few accidents are inevitable to occur.
5 - don't leave unattended luggage outside of luggage compartment or personal goods (cameras, coats, purses, etc...) in the car and visible from outside...
6 - if there are beggars helping you to find a parking place and parking the car, give them a coin by the end, something between .5 and 1 euro. In pay&display parks, don't forget to pay and display.
7 - always stop at pedestrian crossings when there are pedestrians to cross, I think it's not uniformly respected in all Europe, but it is in Portugal
8 - always give right of way when approaching a roundabout
9 - if you are hesitant about the direction to take in some intersection and some impatient driver horns his/her car, just ignore... finger signals are not common, and never expected from a lady.
10 - tailgating is not common
11 - don't use sandals and socks at the same time. It's the only no-no I know for Portugal, except for this Portuguese people is very tolerant to exhotic habits. Don't eat in public places with a hat on, ask your husband to remove a hat before shaking hands with somebody (male or female), don't eat with a hand under the table. Try to eat with a fork in left hand and knife in right hand. If it's too difficult just swap. Never, ever, ever, let knife touch tongue or lips.
12 - if somebody touches your hand or arms, or put a hand in your shoulder to give you some directions, this is not sex harassment.
13 - if you need some directions while driving or walking, just ask. when you are driving and stop the car to ask something to a pedestrian, it's good policy to turn off the radio of reduce the volume, the same for police agents.
14 - read extensively http://www.discoverportugal2day.com
15 - if somebody addresses you complimentary words, try to accept them with graciosity (ask your husband to avoid breaking the nose of the guy)
16 - if somebody holds a door for you to pass, just smile and say Obrigada
17 - if in a escalator, elevator, etc, there are gentlemen obviously waiting for you to advance, do not frustrate them and step forward (ladies first thing)

I am loving this thread!

Sherry

Sorry Lobo, I have to take issue with some of your points...

Point - 7: those visitors unused to crossing Portuguese roads at pedestrian crossings should be aware that many people will NOT stop even should you have your foot out onto the crossing. This is especially evident when crossing dual carraigeways, 2 lanes in each direction: 1 car may stop but as you step into the fast lane cars there will sometimes not. BE VERY CAREFUL. And should you survive there is I think a Portuguese tradition of exchanging finger gestures: and if extra lucky the offending driver will blare his horn at you because you are in the wrong for crossing the road at all. Make sure then that there are no cars at all anywhere near when crossing. This also applies to traffic lights and the green man "Walk" signal. Look carefully.

Point 8. Are you sure Portuguese drivers know this? Motorcyclists? Normal cyclists?

Point 9. Finger signals are common, at least where I live... "and never expected from a lady." You haven't met my wife

Point 10. Tailgating is common, at least on the A1 Norte when I drive to Beira Baixa for the weekend.

Point 11. Don't use sandals and socks at the same time or have a mullet haircut - people will think you are from Germany - at least that's what my wife says and she lived there for ages.



Pay attention to the sidewalks - treat each as if walking through a minefield - fresh dog crap trodden into shoe soles is very embarassing if entering a posh restaurant of friend's house. Despite the fines (supposedly imposed) few dog walkers pay attention and let their dogs go anywhere - I've had many arguements which have ended in an exchange of insults, I hate dog crap on the pavement but no one else seems to care. The thing to remember in Lisbon if strolling around after dark is not the possibility of crime but the likelyhood of slipping in a fresh turd.

There are very few, (perhaps to be counted on one hand?) restaurants that have no smoking sections and at busy times some can be hazy with cigarette smoke. (Especially more local, less so but still in the tourist places) so if you can choose outside tables if available.

If wanting to fit in with the locals research a little about Benfica or Sporting (football clubs), latest results etc. You will always find lively conversation surrounding this topic!

Matt

Matt you are absolutely right, but let me explain that my "guide to survive in Portugal" was first a reply to a thread with the name "driving in Portugal" and was writen from a drivers point of view. Your comments are very meaningful, but seen from a pedestrian point of view.

Concerning the dog crap, I think your comments are quite exagerated. Besides public hygiene I've never seen that as a problem (may be locals come already with a crap radar incorporated)

Hi Matt,

I told you it would be good! Congratulations and the exchanges between you Lobo and others make this kind of a thread a real treat. Fun reading.

About dogs. Two incidences that I found hilarious in Portugal. We were at a mass many years ago in Obidos (I think) and three dogs came into the church (hard packed earth floor) and quietly played follow-the-leader throughout the whole of the congregation and then retreated as quietly as they came in. No one moved a muscle.

On another trip a small dog appeared at the slightly open church door during mass. The door was opened by an understanding parishioner to let the dog in. The dog then proceeded to look through the church for its master and when finished, the door was opened again for it to leave. I think that says something for the more laid back lifestyle in Portugal that I love.

Where I live in a Toronto (Canada) suburb, our priest's large, beautiful dog comes to mass every Sunday. Follows the procession in and out and seems to know when to awaken from it's nap on the altar steps in time to follow the procession out. There were complaints at one time about the presence of the dog but in the end many of us appeared at mass wearing t-shirts urging the archdiocese to let us keep the dog. Peppy stayed.

In all of Portugal my favourite place is Obidos. Our first visit about 1970. Accommodation in the pousada (the castle) for breakfast and fish and meat dinners came to about $16 per couple. it's a place to wander and my recommendation is to get a map of inside the walls, follow directions and do it yourself. It's so do-able.

Nice photo Matt. We're off to Albufeira for three weeks on Feb. 11.

Cheers for Portugal.

For Lobo,

I enjoyed your post with women in mind.

Michi, that's great I hope you have a fantastic time. Thanks for your comments: I've had a ball compiling this and both Lobo and I are scheduled for a big lunch or dinner soon!

In the meantime you may wish to pass your eyes over "The Resident", the Algarve's English newspaper online:

http://portugalresident.com/portugalresident/frontpage.asp?ed=ALG

Matt

Here is a link to the Lisbon edition of "The Resident"

http://portugalresident.com/portugalresident/frontpage.asp

a pretty comprehensive looking online newspaper in English. Note that I have nothing to do with it - but I think it might provide those visiting with some hot of the press news. Anyway, have a look see.

Matt

Michi, I forgot to say, drop me an email and I'll give you my telephone number, you can call me when you get here and say hello. And I will be casting an eye over your trip reoprt upon your return...

Matt

GREAT RESTAURANTS I went to last summer...

FIRST...Ribadouro, the best ever, serves seafood and my favorite the Prego especial sanwich with fresh garlic and Sagres beer (it's like the best steak sandwich you'll ever have). I went to Lisboa 2x last summer, and probably went to this restaurant 5!!! Invited there by an awesome dentist, who visits the place weekly, that I met while in Lisboa.
Located on Avenida Liberdad...white building.

Also, great (but somewhat expensive) restaurant Ja Sei (I think that's the spelling) very near to Tower de Belem, along the river. Excellent seafood dishes and port wine!!!

Hi smilinsnoboarder,

Since you mentioned a couple of restaurants, usually I don't go to those aimed more at tourists as they seem over priced - it pays to sometimes just wander round a take a chance on some little place - look for an absence of foreigners but instead families or locals - you'll recognise them... plenty of neat little places where you can eat for under 10 euros pp inc everything. But if visiting one Lisbon restaurant then try and make it this: (taken from my reply on another thread)

In Lisbon do not miss Trinidade: http://www.cervejariatrindade.pt/default.asp?s=12171
Sorry it's Portuguese only: I've linked you to the map page, but also click on ementa then especialidades. Or just link this page: http://www.cervejariatrindade.pt/default.asp?s=12190&n=12173

My recommendations:

Bacalhau à Brás
Bacalhau com Natas
Bacalhau na Brasa
Arroz de Tamboril com Camarão (2 Pessoas)
Bife à Portuguesa

(All very Portuguese, just with steaks always request how you wish it done or most times it will come medium rare)

Failing that email me before hand and I'll meet you there for dinner!

Matt

Trindade is a real old monastery. The modern restaurant is beautiful with walls covered with the same tiles that witnessed the monks lives. I am reading a book about the history of Chiado district and that building is one of the oldest in the area.
As far as our sceduled lunch or diner is concerned, have you heard about "Retiro dos Passarinhos" in Rua Campo de Ourique (under the shadow of Amoreiras buildings)? Is the best low level restautant. When I am going there I always have Dourada grelhada plus the secrets of the black pig. Very sadly, the place has almost no parking places. If you prefer disgusting food, I can advise some places. I have to organize my very personal chauffer (eldest son) to pick me up, because I don't wish to refrain myself while drinking the Alentejanos matured reds.

I haven't heard of Retiro dos Passarinhos but I think your suggestion of chaffeur is good: I can catch the bus to Centro Sul and grab a cab back in to Costa. Unless I refrain from drinking and park up at Amoreiras. I think next week may be a bust but the week after I'm ready. BTW I have discovered a great Indian restaurant on this side in Cruz de Pau. The name is a bit tacky "The Taj Palace" but after a decade of searching for a good Curry place in the greater Lisbon area I have finally found it. Should you like spicy food then it is my pleasure to invite you for dinner there!

Matt

A word for visitors about restaurant etiquette.
"Couvert" (bread, butter, olives, cheese) is payed if there is some consumption. Don't make a case about it. If you don't want to pay, don't touch. If you want to be confortable that you won't be charged for it, ask the couvert to be removed.
By the end of the meal, if you put knife and fork resting together in the same direction (usually to the right) it means that you finished your meal.
If there are 2 persons and both want to try 2 dishes, is completely acceptable to ask one dish to come first, and the other afterwards (fish comes always first). Dishes and forks and knives are replaced in between.
Tipping is not mandatory since the service is included, but bearing in mind that waiters are usually poorly payed, it's a good policy to round up the bill. For a single person eating alone, I think that 2 euros is more than enough, for larger groups, the tip may increase. If you don't feel confortable handing a coin to the waite'rs hand, just let the tip over the table when leaving.

And if eating in a fado house and enjoying the music you may want to know a little more about it: here's a fine link I found recently:

http://paginas.fe.up.pt/fado/eng/index-eng.html

Personally my favourite singer was Alfredo Marceneiro - of course Amalia Rodrigues was better known abroad but Alfredo seemed my kind of performer. Here's a website about him:

http://www.alfredomarceneiro.com/englishv/default.htm

Matt

Your schedule fits my convenience. The week after the next seems ok to me. I can't wait to try the Taj Palace. The day we are going to Retiro dosPassarinhos I think that my chauffer may drive you to Costa with no problems.

I am a fan of Marceneiro too. It's incredible how can a lyrics be so naif (A Casa da Mariquinhas, O Bebado pintor), and even so, after listen to it tens of times, I still get emotioned while listening.

I went a few years ago to Adega Machado in Bairro Alto and I hated the place. I'd prefer to have fresh dog crap trodden into shoe soles than returning there again. After that I went to Senhor Vinho, owner Mrs Maria da Fé and I found it just ok. After that I went to Parreirinha de Alfama, owner Mrs Argentina Santos (who sings sometimes herself) and I enjoyed the place, and returned there a few times.

Of course Lobo, therein lies the problem. Many of the fado houses are aimed towards the tourist market - the food and wine expensive and the actual music "soul less". Fado is all about suadades is it not and if all it made you recall was dog poo on your shoe then it didn't have the right affect. Some of the best fado I've seen has been free. At Feira de Ladra on Staurdays up at the top end there used to be a guy who bought and sold the old guitarras, and throughout the day he would play them and sing. Also in Costa during the summer sits and old blind woman singinf fado and she is beautiful. She has actually recorded a CD in Northern Europe but because no one appreciates her here she still "Busks" on street corners. It seems nowadays you have to bleach your hair and worry more about your appearance a la Marisa than put your whole heart into fado.

The queen as you know was Amalia and you can visit her house which is now a museum - here's a link about her.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalia_Rodrigues

Actually rua S. Bento is worth walking down from Rato - lots of antique shops to browse and of course at the bottom is Assemblia de Republica

http://www.parlamento.pt/ingles/index.html

Which is well worth photographing.

Matt

when you start walking down Rua S. Bento from Rato, just in the begining of the street on the left, there is a beautiful Casa de Chá "As Vicentinas" (tel 213887040). I love it. Go there for tea and scones. Everything very British It's very unusual, because the ladies serving the tea are society ladies and the money collected is used for charity purposes. It's opened only from 4 to 7 pm.

I have a suggestion for you. Retiro dos Passarinhos is in one end of Campo de Ourique (near Amoreiras). I know that Retiro dos Passarinhos has a large variety of Conventual desserts, but we could skip them and go for coffe and a slice of chocolate cake in Pastelaria "o melhor bolo de chocolate do mundo" (Rua Coelho da Rocha - tel 213965372).
These guys are not very modest
It's in Campo de Ourique near by the old market (closer to Estrela). It's a walking distance from the terminal of tram #28.
Pastelaria is a very tiny place, with 1 table and 2 chairs. You may order a whole cake (not just a slice) to take home, but I think you have to order in advance.

Yep, I know "As Vicentinas" I used to pass by it regularly but always at a time when it wasn't open. Looks a very nice place to spend an hour. But wherever I have been to eat scones I have always come away disappointed - the ones I bake at home are much better!

Mmnn chocolate cake

Interesting museums in Lisbon - here are their links:

http://www.gulbenkian.pt/
(Gulbenkian)

http://www.geira.pt/mmilitar/
(Military Museum)

http://www.mnarqueologia-ipmuseus.pt/
(National Archeological Museum)

http://www.mnhn.ul.pt/
(Natural history museum)

http://www.museudoteatro-ipmuseus.pt/english/splash01.asp
(Theatre museum)

http://www.museudamusica-ipmuseus.pt/code/common/presentation/intro.php
(Museum of music)

http://museudaagua.epal.pt/museudaagua/
(Museum of water: THIS IS WORTH VISITING - why? You can have a guided walk through the aquaduct which runs over Lisbon giving an incredible view which you will not see anywhere else.

http://museu.marinha.pt/museu/site/pt
(Naval museum)

http://www.museudochiado-ipmuseus.pt/
(Chiado Museum)

Okay, so there's a few for now, have a look through, some may be of interest, some not.

I'll put up some more tomorrow. For now have a good weekend - I'm off to bed. 0145 hrs Lisbon local time...

Matt

WELL; HAPPY, HAPPY, HAPPY. I did not finalize yet, but have on hold my tickets.
We are using miles, so I could not combine Madeira with the round trip ticket from PIT-LIS. So I have to see if I can get a carrier to take us to Funchal and at what cost. We may even rethink that part of the trip and stay in the Algarve for the three or four days we were going to dedicate to Funchal. Or maybe we will not.

We will be spending the last two weeks of October, actually the 15th until the 27th in Portugal. I was very lucky to get even these reservations using miles. The connections are not bad and flight times are good.

The first thing I am going to do is buy a new map of Portugal. I cannot find the one from last year no mater where I look.

Yippee.

I am happy too. And my wife doesn't believe we're going to meet Cher.

Relating to Madeira, I think you should try to go there. I don't know if you saw my notes about "the Pearl of the Atlantic", but if you didn't, I may look for it and re-post again.

The flight is about 1 hour each way and there are a few daily. I don't know the price, but I don't think it's very expensive.

All right so call me egotistical but I just wanted to have the 100th post.

And we reach the century on the good ship Lisbon, here's to a hundred more and good friendships and many dinners and glasses of red wine drunk together.

Cheers Lobo, Sher, Michi, Tere, and everyone else for joining in. Now better get this baby posted for someone else beats me to it!

Matt

Well, Today I am doubly happy. I called to see about the hold on the reservation.

Originally, I would have to leave Lisbon a day early becaue the only way I could return winthin a reasonable time was to overnight in Frankfurt. I was so happy to get the tickets in the first place, that I put them on hold. But when I called today, they can give me a return ticket from Lisbon directly to Philadelphia and on to Pittsburgh. That means we do not have to cut the stay in Lisbon short.
Now they tell me this is a new route and hasn't been approved by the gods of airline systems, but I cannot see this not being approved for seasonal travel. But I booked it anyway.
So, this gives us twelve nights in Portugal.
I have found a fantastic price for a rental car, but have not booked it yet. I know I have lots of time, but I like to get the basics out of the way.
Joao, I do not think I have seen your posts on Pearl of the Atlantic, but I will look for it. If I cannot see it, I will ask you to repost. Just clicking on your name will bring up everything that you have written.
I know it is very far off, but I am so keyed up for the planning.
The pousadas have some fantastic prices for seniors(my husband will be 60 in May0 and we do not even have to prepay.

Bob and I are looking forward to a nice dinner with you guys in Lisbon.

Many thanks for this most interesting and informative thread.

Here is a link to one of the best Lisbon Photo albums I have found online.

http://www.pbase.com/diasdosreis/lisbon&page=all

A fantastic range of Ancient and Modern Lisbon with descriptions and photographic details. This will keep you busy for a while.

Matt

For some reason the link doesn't work 100% so when you link through to the page itself click through to ALL et viola!

Matt

Out of topic, some notes about Madeira
------------------------------------
The main open air activity in Madeira are Levada walks (google "levada walks" for lots of info). Levadas are man made irrigation channels in the mountains, most of which date more then 400 years old. They have been used by the locals to move between villages are now used as a touristic asset, allowing for incredible sightseen spots and photo opportunities. Some Levadas walks may be dangerous and the choice requires professional advice according with the experience, age and skills and personal interests of the walkers.

http://www.madeira-island.com/features/1999/levadas/levadas_an_introduction2.html

Ride in carros de cesto:
http://www.saga.co.uk/travel/resorts3/template.asp?bhjs=0&entity=optionalExcursions&cid=265ADC9C-8AD5-11D7-B8BB00508BAEC55C&sel=4

Madeira is an Island of ashtonishing beauty, but their beaches are of black sand and rocks. Alternatively the locals and people from the continent have choosen Porto Santo (the golden Island) as a favourite spot of leisure and active holidays.
Porto Santo is a very tiny Island, with less to see but superior to Madeira as far as leisure and relax is concerned.
Porto Santo is connected to American history because Colombus maried the daughter of the local governor and lived there for a while.

http://www.ucp-tours.co.uk/portosanto/portosanto.shtml

Interesting link, map and photos:
http://www.gajos.org/travel/Madeira2004/index.shtml.en

photos:
http://portugal-hotels.com/com/fotos.php?id=648&lg=pt

If you are considering Madeira and Porto Santo, I believe this is worthwhile reading: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0887294650/qid=1133868042/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/103-5421573-5159023?n=507846&s=books&v=glance
From the previews online I think it it interesting and the girl in the coverfront is lovely.

Further to the previous considerations, if you are interested in Flemish art, I think that Madeira has the biggest collection of Flemish art outside Flemish countries, spread over Churches and Museums.

Hi everyone! Great posts! Returning to Lisboa after 30 years. Lived in Parede as a child;father in military. I am looking at an apartment in the Chiado area to rent. What can you tell me about that area? Safe? Will be with husband and children. Matt? Lobo Mau? Will be there for 11 days. Since reading the posts, I have decided that we may not rent a car except when we go visit the old house/school, etc. Will use public trans. for the rests as well as maybe even a couple of tours that Matt posted.

Chiado is a very good area. Eventually the most interesting of Lisbon. In the vicinity there is almost all the fun of Lisbon (Bairro Alto, theaters, Opera, etc...). It has a Metro station, and it's a walking distance from downtown.

I spent a few hours in the afternoon in Saint George's castle. The entrance fee is 3 euros with discounts for families, seniors, juniors, and lisbonites. It's a previledged sightseen point and has very good photo opps, but appart from that I don't consider it a must see of Lisbon.

Obrigada Lobo mau. I definitely feel more secure in booking the apartment. If fact, it's right on the Luis de Camoes square; which I hope won't be too noisy. Any thoughts on that? Although there has been mention of many dessert/pastries, I just want to add that it's the fresh baked bread that I will eat the most. I remember as a child, waking up early enough to reach in the bread bag with the days delivery of bread and it still being warm from the oven. So sorry to ramble;just reminiscing!

Another very good photo album of Lisbon and Portugal can be found here:

http://www.pbase.com/sonoflusus/portugal

Well worth looking through.

Matt

Saint George's castle

I like to go there most when the week long beer festival is on... Hic!

On it's own not a must see I concur but as part of an afternoons walk around the old part of Lisbon it cannot be missed. If that makes sense. All right, so it's late and I had too much red with dinner. BTW Lobo what was the Benfica result?

Matt

To be honest as you expect, I'm affraid it might be a bit noisy, as a almost mandatory point of entry in Bairro Alto. The tramway #28 passes at the door of your apartment, but it stops early at night. The most annoying noises should be cars paasing by and people chating.
Don't miss a coffee in "A Brazileira" with Fernando Pessoa, a Port wine tasting in Portwine Institute, Chiado Museum of contemporary art. Very near there's the street of Elevador da Bica (funicular). That street is the most photographed of Lisbon. In you are is the mood for sweets, side by side with A Brazileira there is Pastelaria Bernard.

benfica won 4 to 0. Who are you supporting on 21st Feb sgainst Liverpool?

wow, lobo mau; what great information. I'm not so sure I like that it's a bit noisy but if I suppose we are up early and it quiets down around bedtime, then it shouldn't be too bad. Thanks for all your tips; I think I may go with this place after all.

Oh despite my love hate relationship with Benfica it will be the home side. Since arriving here in 97 I had waited close to ten years for Benfica to Play Man Utd in a competative match so I was well pleased to receive a couple of free tix to that game! And yes I cheered as loud as any when we went 2-1 up. So once more it will Benfica who will benefit from my support on the 21st - I'm just waiting now for my tickets. But it's great to finally see some BIG European teams at the Luz. (Though personally I much preferred the old stadium where many times I walked out onto the pitch).

Oh and as for location namaka, as Lobo says you couldn't be more centrally located. And about noise, well you aren't going to be in the place all day. Get up for breakfast and coffee at 9 ish and away you go!

And there's nothing like the taste of freshly baked bread...

Matt

Hi Matt, are you ok?

Namaka. If you are there, please let me know how you found out about the apartment?

Sherry

Hey Lobo, yes, I'm fine, tired and weary so many sleepless nights as you are aware. Haven't had much time for our thread in the past day or so but I'd like to add one thing. When arriving at Lisbon airport there is a coffee shop opposite the ramp from the customs hall. Would you believe they charge 1 euro for a bica? And that it sucks? Our local coffee shop serves them for 50 cents and is much better. Tourists should be aware of the cost and not pay inflated prices like at the airport.

Rant over!

Did anyone check out the photo links? I've been thinking of doing some black and white work in and around Alfama - hey Lobo, would your Co. sponsor the creation of photographing Lisbon type website?

Hi Sher, how are the travel plans coming along? I'll be working out some spare time during the dates you come over so I can take you on some walks around Lisbon. That is of course should you have no qualms about meeting someone from the internet. But I do look at my reflection in the mirror every morning and don't frighten myself! The only thing I'm having trouble with at the moment though is drawing the perfect circle freehand...

Take care all,

Matt

Hi Matt. I won't have to worry about the buck for the Bica. I will let you on a secret...I cannot drink them no matter how I try.
I have my tickets set and great connections. Both ways direct to Lisbon from Philadelphia.
I have zeroed in on a car rental.
I am looking at hotels in Lisbon but might go budget and look into spending more at the pousadas.
I am buying a NEW Portugal map tonight as I still cannot find mine.
I do still have months to go yet. I will drive myself and my husband batty by then.
I should let you know what we haven't seen in Lisbon. It is a lot. Those three days went fast!

Sher,
I found it after months of searching for a large villa for all of my extended family going with us. Well, everyone has pretty much bailed out so I had to revise my search to accomadate the four of us. Right now, my internet email is not working, but as soon as it is, I will forward the information to you. It is through the vacation rentals by owner site VRBO.

Matt, I'm happy to know that everything is going smooth. The idea of sponsorship is a good one, I'll give you the right contacts (marketing ppl of course).

Sher, don't be affraid of meeting a lobo from the internet because this one keeps the rabies vaccination up to date

Referring to budget hotels, I advise you to check Hotel Ibis Saldanha. It's not luxury but is a real hotel. If you are going to pensao (plural pensoes) you may have the luck of finding a decent place, but not necessarily.

Ibis Saldanha is reasonably located, with near transports (metro saldanha and buses) and Avis rent a car has a point of presence 2 blocks away.

In case you wish to day trip outside of Lisbon, from Saldanha it's easy to navigate.

It's all now, it's 12:30 pm and I have to get up in a few hours.

lobo
I have met with three different groups of people that have posted here. One of the groups met in New York (my family thought I was nuts) one group met in DC (my family still thought I was nuts but that has been going on for four years) and one in Pittsburgh. By now my family thinks it is interesting.

I wouldn't miss it for the world.

Thanks namaka. I have been researching pousadas all day and I am going cross-eyed

Hotel Ibis Saldanha is 59 euros. There is another one Ibis Liberdade, but imho not so well located. The site is http;//www.accord.com

very sorry: It's http://www.accorhotels.com/accorhotels/index.html

Okay Sher,
Here's the apartment site. http://www.vrbo.com/77293
Hope it works for you!

WOW!! it looks nice. on the 1st picture you may see tramway #28 heading towards downtown.

The entrance of Baixa-Chiado metro station is about 50 steps of this appartment. The beginning of Bairro Alto is just the builfings facing your appartment in the opposite site os the square.

Sher, the comments about rabies vaccination was a joke about my screen name (the big bad wolf)

Hmnn, Lobo, thought that was it. You couldn't resist just one more peek at our Lisbon thread could you? Bad wolves need their beauty sleep you know, otherwise they can't huff and puff and blow houses down!

What am I still doing up? I ask myself that same question often.

Matt

Namaka. Thanks. The pictures look fantastic.
Are you thinking of renting this apartment. I will tell you that I am tempted too.
There are only two of us but I love the location.
You guys are night owls (Matt and Lobo)

Twit-twoo, twit-twoo.

Yes. I have email the owner about 5 times with every and any questions regarding the apartment, the area, airport transfers, etc. He responds quickly and with a lot of information. I am sold; especially after reading everyone's posts about the area. We will be there in late June. My old school is having a reunion. Can't wait!

Namake. We are going in October. So if you are going before then, please drop me a line
ccsheen@zoominternet.net
I have an inquiry into the VIP Eden which is an aparthotel and in a pretty good location. It is reasonable also but not half as nice looking as that place.

Would be really grateful for any recommendations/suggestions for guided walking tours in both Lisbon and Porto. We can do it ourselves with a map but have often found it more enjoyable to be guided by someone with "local knowledge"

Hi again and thanks for reposting gj05.

Initially I've found a couple which both leave from the front of Rossio station, details of which can be found here:

http://www.insidelisbon.com/EN/en_passeios_walk_tour.htm
http://www.insidelisbon.com/EN/en_passeios_pub_crawl.htm

I'd suggest contacting them to find out exactly what is included - I have no relationship with them and cannot comment on their tours but worth a look. (Especially the pub crawl ) I'm sure there are more and I'll post some details soon.

Take care

Matt

I wish Fodors had a after post edit function. It's annoying to see the mistakes we have just done I can't do anything about it. May be for next generation of Fodors.

A note to Sher and Namaka about the site Namaka has provided: I think it is quite correct about the information related to Chiado and surrounding areas, with one exception: Rossio railways station is closed, therefore trains for Sintra and Óbidos can not be catched there. The departure for Sintra and Obidos is now from Lisbon-Entrecampos. From Rossio to Entrecampos you have to take the metro (one change) or buses.

As I said before, I'm seeing all day the trains in Lisbon-Entrecampos from my office's window. Just in case you pass nearby, raise and wave your hands and I'll know you are a fodorite

Matt, I did my beauty sleep Now I feel really a bad, bad wolf

Matt, I think we should try the "pub crawl" to gain first hand experience, before we have authority to suggest it to others

Yes, purely for research purposes of course!

Yes! pub crawl, pub crawl I like that idea.
Thanks Matt, but we do not intend returning to Sintra or Obidos, of course namanka may.

yes, I will be returning to Sintra so thanks for that info Lobo Mau. I will also remember to wave as I pass through.

Sher, I'm assuming you wanted me to email you once I returned home; is that correct? Or did you want to get more info now?

I will have to say there is a small glitch holding up the renting process. The owner states that I need to send my deposit through Paypal but says that I have to pay the 45 euros that Paypal charges. Does that sound right? I am hoping it is just some sort of miscommunication or it may make me start to have doubts about him. There was no mention of this fee in any of our correspondence till now. What do you think?

Hi Namaka
If you wish I may contact the owner and clarify the paypal charges for you

Thanks Lobo Mau; I think I'd rather wait to see what his reply will be re; the extra fees.

We did rent an apartment in Lisbon last year and paying for it was a nightmare.

I am not interested in doing that again, namanka, no matter how nice the apartment is.

We did not use Paypal, but we used a wire transfer and it was back and forth, back and forth. Also, there were a lot of extra fees.

Of course, this is only my experience. But when someone starts saying to me that I must pay extra fees, it just gives me a bad feeling.

I wish you luck.

Ideas for interesting wildlife experiences:

If going to Setubal area then one of the best things is a dolphin tour, for the river Sado is home to a large number of estuary dolphins: http://www.vertigemazul.com/Ingles.htm We keep talking of doing it - I was lucky to see dolphins from the normal ferry in Setubal itself and have watched large schools of dolphins from the shore. It appears this company also offers tours of Arrabida natural park which is a large mountain having beautiful scenery, I am not in anyway linked to this company but I think it would be a fantastic and different experience.

Near Sines is a large safari park called Badoca Park - http://www.badoca.com/ (I can't see if it has English) which is a good day out (Although having toured Tanzania and the Serengeti it was a bite "tame" for my tastes) but again worth considering. Got some great hands on experience with some birds of prey and different owl species, although no night owls

Matt

A few posts back gj05 asked about walking tours in Lisbon. So here's a more complete list:

www.lisbonwalks.com

www.lisbonwalker.com

www.espiatorio.com (Adventure walks and treks)

www.insidelisbon.com (includes mini bus tours to Sintra, Cascais, Arribida, Sesimbra, Obidos and Fatima)

www.mrfriend.pt (Guided tours to Sintra, Palmela, Mafra, Fatima and Obidos)

And what could turn out to be something really different -

www.sidecartouring.co.pt (Tours of Lisbon on the back of a motorbike and sidecar).

Once again please note I have no relationship with any of these listings but again well worth a browse.

Matt

night owl is back on duty

Well, I have been in contact with the owner of the apartment. He did apologize for not mentioning the fees in the other posts. He gave me some other alternatives though; #1 that I could do a bank transfer, which internationally runs $25 each time. That would end up being $50;once for deposit and once for balance due. He also suggested that I could pay the deposit through Paypal (30% of total cost) and just pay the paypal fee on the 30%. It's a 4.5% fee; not too bad there. The remaining balance I can just pay in cash when I arrive. After thinking it over, I have decided on the latter route. I feel confident in his willingness to put me at ease and his expedience in addressing all my questions and concerns. I hope it works out in the end!

This is a photo Lobo sent me of his "nocturnal" guise...

http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/3257/Summer99/FRITZ.JPG

Matt, you have very good archives, but a litlle outdated. I don't use mustache since 1999.

Namaka, is so good to know everything is cleared and you are coming. I look forward to meet you and your family.

Namaka. I am glad it worked out for you also.
Please email me when you return to tell me how you liked the apartment.
I am glad you decided to not do a wire transfer, which is what gave us so much trouble when we rented. I would very much appreciate it.
Sherry
ccsheen@zoominternet.net

Lobo Mau and Sherry,

Thanks so much for your support. It makes me feel even more confident in my decision. I can't wait to get there;only 4 more months to go!

I just have to share one small story! I lived in just outside of Lisboa from 1972-1975 as a child because my father was in the military. I probably complained about everything that was not American. No McDonalds, no Brady Bunch tv show,etc.But when the day came to finally board the plane back to California, I was crying hysterically because I didn't want to leave. I have dreamed of coming back the last 30 years and can't believe it's finally happening. Oh,uh-it's almost making me cry right now.

I think your return will be the cause for a large celebration. Okay, I'm in, Lobo, Sher, Tere, who else? In fact I'll start in advance and open a bottle of red especially...

Unfortunately you'll find McDonalds just about everywhere you look now in Lisbon and surrounds - and overweight children

Matt

Matt, I now know that McDonalds has made it. Well, my son will be happy although he's more interested in the shrimp.

Okay, so let's get this party started!

Save some of that red for me.

Sher. It's not a good idea to save the remainings of the bottle for so long. We have plenty of them and we'll open another one for you.
Matt, I'm always ready to celebrate, whatever it is.
And a last note that may leave many people in shock: I like MacDo, I go there at least once a month...

I wonder about you, Lobo Mau... You work (...?) near Entrecampos, you know Lisbon as nowbody else, your english is almost perfect... you even has all the needed etiquette notions and are able to transmit it to foreigners! You are not a child, has your eldest son already drive...

And he huffs and he puffs...

Well. We used McDonald's quite often in the mornings.
We drove extensively on our last trip there and sometimes if we wanted to get on the road quickly, it was a great place to stop for coffee TO GO.

Hey Sher, I think you missed the end of the sentence - I'll galdly finish for you for coffee TO GO in the bin Man you really have to be desperate to drink a "McBica" or whatever they call it. Yeuch! I personally have an intravenous drip supplying my system with caffeine that I trail around with me and even then I must have at least 2 bicas per day just to stay awake. I guess that's the bonus of having a 2 week old daughter...

Matt

Dear Saozinha, in spite of not understanding the usage of the question mark (...?) in your post I read your post as a complimentary post and I thank you for that. The comments about my usage of English language and knowledge about Lisbon are largely undeserved (Matt knows Lisbon much better than I do and has that bon vivant flair that I miss).
And last but not the least, I have a unresolved conflict with my ID card. It says I'm over 40 and I believe I'm 20 but I'm positive I'm right in this dispute .
The huff and puff capabilities are largely due to never have smoked (someday I'll try a cuban cigar)
My screen name is inspired in the big bad wolf children's story, but apart from that, I must confess I'm a huge fan of the "Grey Wolf", better known as Mustapha K. Ataturk, the father of modern Turkye and my very favourite statesman of 20th century.

McBica in Lisbon and McCimbalino in Porto (ok, this is a private joke for Matt, Tere, Saozinha and other Portuguese speakers)

Really coffee, please: a few years ago I start looking at the trademark of the coffee before ask for it... Segafredo, Nicola, Delta, Cristina in the N, etc.
Lobo Mau: I have the same problem, more than 40 are already allocate to my Id card, but I'm saving: I only use 37, by the moment.
The "work (...?)" its a naugthy comment on the large quantity of info you find the time of kindly provide about Pt!
Is it usual to see that a recent post has disappeared with the answers?

I came to a week end in upper Alentejo in Sogra's Inn. The room is not very large but it's really a family environment. The food is top quality.
I'll let you know the details after return to Lisbon.

Hi all!

I'm new to this board and I want to thank you for this wonderfully informative thread. My husband and I will be visiting Portugal this May/June and I am currently investigating car rental in Portugal. We don't plan to have a car while in Lisbon or Porto, but right now we plan to hire a car for driving around the other parts. My question is this - is it really as dangerous to drive in Portugal as they say? I have read mixed reviews - some write that we shouldn't worry and others talk about it being the most dangerous in Europe. What advice can you offer me? Can you calm my fears?

Thanks!

I like the Baileys Irish Cream but I prefer the matured reds (don't take this as personal).

Believe it or not, I know people who drove in Portugal and survived to tell the experience. Therefore I believe it isn't that bad.
Next Monday I'll post some EU official statistics and you may judge by yourself

lobo_mau. Have sent you an email with the dates for our GTG in Lisbon. I do not have your correct address. Please email me when you have time so I can tell you the exact dates we will be there.
ccsheen@zoominternet.net

Bailey: NO, driving in Portugal isn't nearly as bad as some people are saying. We (my husband, 3 children, and I) lived there 2 yrs in the l970's). I drove everyplace, drove right down into center of Lisbon with ladies for lunch and shopping (though most of them would NOT drive into the city). My husband and I returned last year for 5 days and really enjoyed it. Rented a car (medium/full) from Avis I believe, and drove everyplace.ie; Lisbon, out the coast to Cascais, Estoril, up to Sintra etc.
Roads are good, stay in your own lane, and it's really no worse than most cities of Europe. In regard to "other parts" of Portugal , you will have a great time..and it's easy driving. The people are very nice and helpful. and it truly IS a beautiful, interesting country.

For Baileys. EU official statistics -fatalities in Europe, rate by million population:

Malta 33
Netherlands 50
Sweden 54
United Kingdom 56
Denmark 69
Germany 71
Finland 72
Ireland 89
France 93
Italy 97
Austria 108
Luxembourg 110
Spain 113
Slovakia 113
Estonia 124
PORTUGAL 125
Hungary 127
Belgium a) 131
Czech Republic 135
Slovenia 137
Poland 148
Greece 153
Cyprus 154
Lithuania 216
Latvia 220

a) last available data for Belgium is 2002, all other countries is 2004.

check: http://europa.eu.int/comm/transport/care/index_en.htm

Lobo Mau,
If Alto Alentejo means around Elvas and Portalegre, please report on your "outdoors" food experience...

While in Elvas region I ate mostly in Sogra's Inn. It's incredibly unexpensive
Outside Sogra's Inn, I experienced the Restaurant "A Maria" in Alandroal, the highlight of any travel. I went there with the webmaster and author of www.discoverportugal2day.com and the bill was around 100 euros for 6. Good value for money imho. I tryed "O Isaias" in Estremoz. I had there grilled Burras (pork maxilar bone, it was ok, except for the poor pig had bad teeth). Another good option is Varchotel, with all the collection of black pig meats, including burras and the famous secrets. It has a minus, as is in the first node of the highway coming from Spain, it's usually packed with Spaniards (mostly during weekends).
I went to Vila Viçosa Pousada and I didn't like. The food buffet is ok, but tooo much expensive. I think the reference of that region is "A Bolota" in Terrugem, but I don't have first hand experience (I guest it to be expensive).

"A Bolota" this summer had the main dishes around 18-24 € and (conventual) desserts around 15 €.
You missed restaurant "A Estalagem", at Arronches, for the house special: carpa with poejos - go ahead, translate this one!!!

Hi Baily. Here's some info that may be helpful.

http://tinyurl.com/j4wlk

I haven't tried A Estalagem yet. I'll go there as soon as I can. I don't dare to translate "carpa and poejos", I think that it is a mission for Matt. Hi Matt, where are you? Did you get lost in a place with no Internet.

Seetheworld, I don't wish to comment the site, except the chapter "language tips" It's hilarious!!! I recommend it to any Portuguese readers willing to spend the afternoon with a smile on their face

Lobo, it actually brought a huge smile to my face, lol. You can also use any of those phrases on a "bad date" while in Portugal.

All - thank you for the great info on driving in Portugal.

seetheworld - that's a great document - full of useful info - thanks!

Just an FYI for the Lisbon interested that US Airways is starting non-stop service to Lisbon from Philadelphia and has a promotional fare of $723 (during JUNE 2006) round trip (includes all taxes/fees).

bardo. There are even ff tickets available because that is how we got ours.
I am so excited.
You leave Philadelphia at 8:30pm and arrive in Lisbon 8:30 am.

Hi Sher
I sent you 2 emails yesterday. Did you receive them?

Yes, I did receive them but only the ones that said you were writing from your mother-in-law's.
Is this the email address you want me to use to send you the dates of our stay?

yes please. it is my only personal email. feel free to email without no problem at all

You are welcome, Bailey. When are you heading to Portugal? We are going in July. I'd be curious to get your impressions on the driving situation upon your return.

Seetheworld - We'll be there end of May/early June for about 2 weeks. I'll be sure to let you know about our experiences.

I finally have our itinerary mapped out and right now I'm working on scheduling our flights... We were going to just use buses to get ahead, but then decided on renting a car for part of our trip when we're outside of Lisbon and Porto.

Bailey and see the world. Don't forget trip reports!

I'll be sure to write a trip report.

Oh, and I also meant to say "use buses to get around"...

Well, my computer implodes and I leave you all alone for a few days and look what happens - so much discussion without me. Hello all those whom have joined us recently, just so you know I drive a battered old Land Rover Discovery - I like the high view point and the fact that unless a truck hits you you should be okay. I've driven here for almost a decade and am still here - I think you must be more worried as a pedestrian than driver.

Lobo I have seen your email (having to access online) but if anyone else has emailed previously everything has been chewed up in my old PC, so Sher and everyone please resend anything you many have already sent - I do not have records of your email addresses or anything.

Right, Lizzy is complaining, have to hand the laptop back, I'll check in tomorrow.

Take care all, I'm glad to be back.

Matt

Matt; I'm very happy to know you are alive and kicking. This thread lost must of its fun during the days you were absent.

Yeah Lobo, not only did the damn PC buy the farm but also my contact from Benfica hasn't managed me to get a ticket for tonight. Hasn't PT got a big executive bx you can squeeze us both into? Otherwise beer and crisps and the TV tonight. But following on from recent dismal results I can only predict a Liverpool win - 3-1 to them. And I think should we lose vs Porto this weekend Koeman will face the chop...

Matt

Benfica 1 Liverpool 0 In case they secure the advantage in the 2nd leg, I have a champagne bottle saved in the frige

I thought this thread would see the post #200, but apparently it came to the end of it's natural life. RIP

NOOOOO!!!This is the thread that I always check. It has given me so much information. Please say it ain't so!

Well. I am good for another one.

I am waiting to hear from the places that I have emailed. So far only one person has responded to my enquiry.

I would like to eliminate the first group and start on the backup.

Sher, who are you waiting on replies from? Apartment rentals, hotels?

Lobo, I hope you are not so premature in everything you do! I still have a million things to post but what with a knackered PC it's slowly slowly. With something new it stays current, and builds up a sense of anticipation. Lisbon has to be worth at least 300...

Matt

Hi. I got an immediate repy from the apartment in Lisbon, but I have not made up my mind. The only reason is that it really is more apartment than the two of us need and it works out to be about $120. per night.

I wrote to Secret Places about a place in the Alentejo. I used them before and I am curious as to why they have not answered. They are usually prompt.

I wrote to a seaside resort that
lobo_mau gave me the website of but that was just today. But before he sent me the website I had only found one other apartment in that area and they have not responded.

We are planning (as of now) to spend at least two nights in a Pousada.

I just like having an apartment. After touring all day, if we do not feel like going out to dinner we can just relax.

I also wrote to a unique village in Borba which is the self catering unit.

I have only begun to read this thread!

My S&BIL will be going to Lisbon shortly. I'll have to send her your list Matt -- it's very comprehensive.

These abbreviations are killing me. I spent the last 15 minutes of my life trying to understand what is a S&BIL. My best shot is Sister and Brother in Law

LOL, yes Lobo, you are correct. Sorry that you spent the last 15 minutes of your life trying to figure that out!

Welcome to the pasty seetheworld. Your abbreviations are welcome to join and post any Qs they may have. Lots of good advice to be found here and more to come, not just from me either.

Benfica winning at Anfield - now that will be cause for celebrations Lobo - and now how's about dinner next week? (Finally) And then providing a restaurant trip report...

Matt

Only a couple more to go - I'll graciously allow someone else to claim it, I had the first and hundredth.

Well, when we come to Lisbon, you guys better have found a good place for us to have dinner is all I have to say!

okay Lobo Mau, it's all yours!!!

Thank you namaka. This is a dream I carry since I was a child

lobo_mau. I knew you could do it.

In celebration of this momentous occasion, I baked a cake for everyone!

Enjoy!

Sher,
May be this is a useful link for you:
http://www.porticasa.com/fr/alg/algapart1.php

SauzinhaP. Thanks

Matt, do we start our consultancy work with "Retiro dos Passarinhos" or with "Taj Palace"?
"Retiro dos Passarinhos" may be inconvenient due to avian flu. (ok, this is a private joke for Portuguese readers).
If we are gooing to Retiro dos Passarinhos, I suggest Dourada escalada and the famous secrets of the black pig, with a slice of chocolate cake in another place. If we are going to the Taj Palace, I trust your choice because I feel that is your area of expertise.

Matt,

Hope you can field my dinning question. We will be in Portugal in June celebrating our parent’s 50th wedding anniversary, staying in Sintra.
We are 8 adults. Is there a restaurant you would suggest for dinner on their anniversary night? We are hoping to find something intimate, not to fancy, with excellent local fare and flare. A place that expresses compassion for there celebration.

Thanks in advance for your help.

David

The place you are looking for is "Curral dos Caprinos" - Cabriz (outside Sintra) tel: +351 21 9233113
Typical Portuguese Cuisine, typical atmosphere.
Speciality: roasted lamb with potatoes. This speciality, although very Portuguese, matches well with the international taste.
Go there in advance or call, explain the purpose of the meal, and they will prepare you a more intimate atmosphere.
If I were you, I'd negociate a fixed price in advance, because it might be more favorable and let you know in advance how much the bill is.

Thank you Lobo, Curral dos Caprinos was on my list of places to try, but now I know its a contender for the anniversary. Let me know if you want to join us. Its gona be a party.

Matt/Lobo: Have been thoroughly enjoying reading this thread. Sincere thanks for all of the great information. You've really helped bring Lison to life before we've even arrived there!
We will be visiting Lisbon and Porto in late March. We've already got your hints about walking tours but I also wanted to ask you about wine. I'm not an expert (and am not interested in the really expensive varieties) but love to try different wines (and ports!?) while we're travelling. Is there any chance you might be able to recommend some places (retail outlets)to buy wine (red and white) for up to Euros 15? Any particular wines you would recommend?
One other question: can you recommend any good sources of information on Porto and the surrounding area?

David, it's most kind of you. I'm ready to share a table in Piriquita (Sintra) to have a coffe and a queijada or a travesseiro, but I think that the family celebration is far too intimate to let me joining you.
Thanks anyway.
If you are in the area during Saint Anthony's day, don't miss the night during which Lisbon goes crazy (12 to 13th June). Details were fully explained by Matt 200 posts ago

Hello gj05
There are 2 kinds of wines I think you should try. Verdes and maduros.
In spite of it's name, verdes are not necessarily green. Verde in this context means immature, because they come from hills in the North less exposed to sun. It's a light kind of wine, slightly sparkling, nice to drink, usually served very cold and good to eat with fish or seafood. The opposite are the world class reds from Alentejo, full of colour and with more "body". These reds are served at normal temperature. The brands to be looked for are Reguengos, Borba, Vidigueira, Redondo. Other names are Bucelas and Colares (region of Lisbon)
In Supermarkets (e.g Carefour in Lisbon) you may find a large selection of these wines for much less then 15 euros. I'd say that with 10 euros is more than enough.
As far as the port is concerned, if you go to Porto, you should visit the cellars. The major brands offer tours and tastings. If you want to try in Lisbon, you should try Port Wine Institute with some 200 different varieties, but only as a 2nd option. Porto is the place to taste and buy port wine.

Hi lobo_mau. I wrote to several places to ask about reservations. I have received only one reply. Do you think it is because most of the visiters are local people and they are not used to having rexervation requests from Americans?
We are not concerned if there are no other English speaking people near. Can you give me some advice?

Thanks
Sherry

Lobo Mau thank you very much for your advice! Really appreciate it!
I love full bodied red wines so will make a point of trying the Alentejo wines. Do you know of any restaurants where we can indulge in a good steak and red wine? ... or a Portuguese version of that?
What do you think of the wines from the Dao region and the Douro Valley?

Daddy's back! Okay let me just review the previous few posts...

Now Lobo, managed to sneak out with Lizzy for a very good curry last night at the Taj Palace. Back in Blighty I used to have one a week so last night was popadoms, onion bhajis, pilau rice, Lamb jalfreizi, (spicy ish) with garlic nan breads and lots of beer. Yum. I must introduce you to their excellent food.

My dear Sher, I still can't access that booking form for the Eden on my laptop - hopefully the big thing will be up and running later this week, my apologies.

Davidhaha - I think Lobos suggestion for a restaurant in SIntra is good - I don't have much experience with eating in Sintra - he is very considerate too re the invite but I can always call you "Bro!" and sit in It sounds like you are treating your parents to a very nice anniversary - have they previous knowledge of Portugal? Sintra of course is stunning and Lord Byron called it a beautiful eden.

gj05 - okay you caught my attention with the word wine. In the supermarkets, Jumbo, Continente (best if you are staying in Lisbon to take the metro to Columbo shopping centre) there are huge wine areas and you can pay anything from 1 euro up. A regular table wine we have is JP tinto (locally produced) it'll cost you no more than two euros (or perhaps 5 in a restaurant) My favourite table wine is Periquita from Jose Maria fonseca (around 5 euros supermarket price) - they make a special version called "Classico" which is worth buying and taking back home to lay down for a year or two (If you can!) As I said originally, a good trip to do from Lisbon is the vineyard and Museum tour of Jose Mara Fonseca in Azeitão. And re the steak and wine it is imperative that you contact Lobo and myself to take you to one, I would suggest http://www.cervejariatrindade.pt/default.asp?s=12171
Lobo may have another idea but bearing in mind my wife is vegetarian I love escaping home for a night and having a huge steak. This restaurant I mentioned is very Portuguese and I think will give a better dining experience than Portugalia (IMHO)

You know Lobo I think you and I are going to have to start of Fodors dining club in Lisbon - it will involve much research and drinking in order to establish an optimised list of eating ideas both day and night. We already have a few places mentioned and it would be great to meet up with all who visit lisbon? What do you think sir?

Now have I missed anything? Don't think so. Lobo, any predictions for Benfica v Porto? I'm having a quiet weekend, what about everyone else?

Stay safe and be good,

Matt

Hi Matt. I actually received a reply from the VIP Eden about reservations, just not a translation of their booking conditions.
It is the three or four others I wrote to , two along the coast and two in the Plains, that I have not gotten any answers from.

Thanks

Hi Matt. I noticed in your post that your wife is vegetarian. There is a very strong chance that my son's girlfriend will be coming with us to Portugal this summer. We're staying in Tavira.

I have noticed that many restaurants (in guide books) state that there are no vegetarian meals served. Will we have a problem finding places to eat?

While we are staying in a condo with a full kitchen, I'm hoping we can have main meals out. Any feedback would be appreciated! Thanks.

Matt, you are right, I mentioned Carrefour is Lisbon as a supermarket, but it is poorly served by public transport and the huge supermarket in Colombo is much more convenient for ppl without a car. Besides that, the Colombo mall itself has much more to offer. There is a Metro station with direct access to Colombo (Colegio Militar - Luz) and it may be combined with a visit to Benfica Stadium, known as "the cathedral" by Benfica supporters. So, you you ask a taxi driver to drive you to the Cathedral, you must specify what Cathedral you are talking about. Sporting Lisbon Stadium on the other side of 2nd circular road is nicknamed as "the bathroom" (you will know why when you see it). May be Sporting Lisbon supporters don't agree with this classification

Referring to the "Fodors dining club in Lisbon" I think that 2 are enough to start, I hope many others to join.

gj05, wines from Douro quintas are usually produced in small quantities, and don't target the mass market as Alentejo wines do. I didn't refer to them because they hardly fit in the money limits you suggested. I fully agree with Matt, either visit JMF or go to Colombo Jumbo supermarket and spend a half an hour studying their offer.

From 5 or 10 euros is possible to buy decent wines. I don't see the reason for anybody to remain sober.

Sher, if you wish send me a copy of emails and I'll call the guys trying to figure out the reasons for the absence of answer. It sounds strange. I don't believe they don't welcome foreigner guests.

Davidhaha, I've been discussing with my wife the previous negotiation of a menu vs a meal "a la carte". With a group of 8 adults, I suggest very much a fixed price. Of course, as in any other business, what you deserved is what you negotiate. Cigars, or premium whiskies of things like that are usually payed apart from the fixed price.

This computer is being disputed by an younger wolf. Although I am the dominat male, I have to quit, bye.

Matt/Lobo: thank you very much for your advice about wine and restaurants. Will definitely follow up on the restaurant when we're in Lisbon in late March. (Neither my wife nor I are seafood eaters - yes, I know! I can hear the chorus of voices asking "so why are you going to Portugal?" .... well we are and we're determined to have a great holiday!)
I've been trying to practice my "phrase-book" portuguese but given the progress I've been making (???), and knowing how good my pronunciation is (???), the waiter will no doubt interpret my attempt to order steaks for two as an effort to tell him that my hovercraft is full of eels!!!???
.... with regard to Jose Mara Fonseca, unfortunately don't think I'll be able to convince Mrs gj05 to visit the vineyard (something about me being obsessed with wine???!!!) so I guess I'll just have to force myself to go to the supermarket instead!?
In all seriousness, thank you very much to both of you for the time and effort you have put into providing all the information here!

gio5. Well, when we were in Lisbon, we made it to the Colombo mall, We took in a movie and then decided to drop in to the supermarket. It is something I love to do in the countries we visit.
You have to check out the yogurt! I never saw so many flavors. The granny smith apple was delicious. They were giving out samples just as we do here in the markets. And I think they had a decent selection of wine with my limited knowledge. The place is enormous.
I really enjoyed buying things to cook because we had the opportunity to have steaks from Argentina. To the best of my knowledge, I never had meat from there before. It was delicious.
Anyway, I know it is just a mall, but it is really quite nice and you can take in a movie for some down time.

lobo_mau. I am finally receiving some replies. One is Monte Dos Pensamentos about 3km from Estremoz. The other is in the ancient village of Sao Gregorio, which is very near to Borba and Vila Vicosa. Both are mentioned in guidebooks and get very good reviews. And although they are self catering, they both include breakfast. So now it will be a very hard decision. Do you hav an opinion? Or anyone who may have stayed in these areas.

Trindade is good to have a steak. Besides that, and depending on where you are, I think there are other places deserving a try. Republica da Cerveja ("Beer Republic" in former expo98 area) and Cervejeira Lusitana with a good selection of home made beers. Cervejeira is present in the main malls (Colombo and Vasco da Gama).
Sher,I don't know the places you mentioned, but location of both couldn't be better. My wife was born 10 minutes from there and go there often to send the ween end with MIL (seetheworld, is there such a thing? )
From there you are very close to Borba, Vila Viçosa, Alandroal (restaurant "A Maria"), Redondo, Estremoz. You are still close to Evora, Marvao, Arraiolos, Sao Bento do Corval and Monsaraz.
As I said I don't know exactly the places, but within 1 or 2 weeks, I'll pass there to have a coffee, and I'll ask to see the rooms and the atmosphere. This is not because of you, but for personal curiosity.
Please, don't miss "Isaias" (the prophet) in Estremoz. If you ask for directions while looking for Isaias, write down in a peace of paper, because pronuntiation is quite different from you may expect. It's a very low end Portuguese style of restaurant. Take with you live cash because they don't accept cards and I think they don't even have telephone!!! The place is a former lagar (olives processing place) with the tools still visible. At the entrance there is Isaias himself, with is barbecue, preparing whatever clients ask. Of course the main dishes are grilled. Is has no individual chairs, but bancos (help Matt) around the tables, each for 4 or 5, and clients take any available seat. The menu includes disgusting food (e.g. pork maxilar bones) but regular food as well (streaks, pork ribs, cow ribs). I assume they have a limited understand of English, but don't let that prevent you form going there. If nothing else works, point to the raw food, ask "I want this" and Isais will prepare it for you.
Go there with open mind and I'm sure you will have a lot of fun.
By the end, bill will be an agreable surprise. The walls are covered with pictures of Portuguese and international figures side by side with Isaias around his BBC.
If you have special requirements like "no salt" or similar, write it in a paper to be sure you are understood.

corrections:
*My wife was born 10 minutes from there and go there often to spend the week end with MIL.
not "peace" but "piece"
I wish Fodor's to have a after post editing tool.

It would be wonderful if you have the opportunity to go by these places.
I am intriqued as Adelia de SAo Gregorio is the whole ancient village that has been restored to have several houses. Or this is how I understand it. The location is wonderful.
Thank you for the restaurant advice. I am going to put it on my list with A Maria (which the owner of this property recommends).
It will be very difficult to make a decision.

Dear Matt, lobo_mau, sher, michi,

My husband and I will be in lisboa for about 5 days during the second week of march, him for business and me for pleasure, and I would like to say "THANK YOU!!!" I had purchased the DK Eyewitness tourguide, bought a map and read different tourist websites, but this thread has been the most helpful. I feel like I'm being taken around the city by a friend who points out not only the standard tourist attractions found in guide books, but more importantly, all the things about Lisboa that one falls in love with as a resident of the city. I've thoroughly enjoyed reading all the posts and I feel better informed and eager to experience Lisboa.

Thanks again!

hiboston. If you do not enjoy yourself, I will be very surprised. The people are warm, friendly and very helpful.
The food is a little unusual, but be open. Everyone loves pastries. And if worse comes to worse, you can live on them for five days. How bad can that be?
Please write a trip report when you come back.

Sher

i'm not too concerned about the food, since i'm very open to most types of food. just not brain. =) i will definitely write a report upon my return, maybe even while i'm there, kind of like a travel journal. i'm staying a bit outside of the main city, a little to the north at the marriott (due to husband's work), but i did notice that the metro is not far and i plan on utilizing the metro quite often. oh, and i'll be sure to stop in at a local market to check out the different types of food they sell.

I am pretty sure that Marriott has a shuttle that takes you to and from the airport.
I have heard that it is a very nice hotel but a little outside the normal tourist areas. I cannot remember if I read about bus service.
Check out www.tripadvisor.com.
Have a wonderful time.

hj, your words have shown that you are a lovely person. Don't be affraid with food and don't spend a week eating pastries as suggested
If anything else fails you have always "SOS food". It is something called bitoque (sounds like "bee tok"). It consists of a small steak (pork or beef, grilled or fried) with liberty fries , 1 egg and a small portion of salad. Very international. The good thing is that the same dish, with the same name and the same composition may be found everywhere. Besides SOS food, I'm sure you will find your way to eat real food. I'll give you in the next few days, some examples of real food, that doesn't include brain Don't be affraid because brains are not part of the Portuguese ordinary diet. I even think it was banned sincer the mad cows crisis.
Marriott is a bit far from Metro Stations. I think that the way from one of the 2 Metro stations I am thinking to the hotel is not very charming, mainly after dark and for a lady alone. I'd catch a taxi, they are not very expensive and they leave you just before hotel front doors.
Tomorrow I'll post some more notes because I can only keep one eye opened at a time (it's 4.20 am). Tomorrow it's Carnival Tuesday. Within 40 days it will be Easter.

I have another question.
We will spend two days in the Sierra de Estrela region possibly around Belmonte or maybe Linhares is better.
How can I find out about wineries that I may visit here.
lobo_mau. I think eating pastries everyday is perfectly acceptable. It was really only a small joke suggestion.

Lobo,

I would be up for a cup of coffee or a drink. I will have my two brothers and our wives with us, as well as our parents. One brother plays some Mandolin and would like to find somewhere local to hear some fados. Unfortunatly, we will miss the Saint Anthony’s day celebration. We will be there from June 3 – 10th. Then we are going to Madrid, then Malaga. Send me your email and we will set something up. Abregado.

David

A few clarifications: the low end restaurant in Campo de Ourique I very much is recommend is not "solar dos passarinhos" but "casa dos passarinhos" (tel: 213 882 346).
Pastelaria "o melhor bolo de chocolate do mundo" (for chocolate cake lovers)is in Campo de Ourique as well, and opened 10 am - 7:30 pm, Monday to Saturday. They sell whole cakes only with order as I painfuly found yesterday.
The site http://www.pai.pt has a map with the location and telephone number of anything business related (restaurants, pastelarias, hotels and so on). Just write the name in the box and... voilá! Usualy the "x" marks the spot, but in this situation it's the circle.
David, I like Parreirinha de Alfama, I don't know if it's the best, but Ilike it. It must be reserved in advance because the place is tiny and a group of 8 almost fills it. I think you should come to Lisbon for a fado experience, because in Sintra I don't think you can find anything interesting. Sintra to Lisbon, outside the rush hours is about 20 to 30 minutes. Your brother will appreciate "guitarradas". It's a performance of guitar players, without any voice of lyrics, just plain music. Parreirinha players usualy do that at least once a night. I am not ready to join you at the anniversary dinner, but I'm ready to join you during the fado show, if you like. Please understand that talking, even in low voice, is strictly forbiden during singers performance. If you fail this, singers will let you know. You should't smoke as well. Compulsive smokers may always come outside for a cigarette.
Sher, don't be sensitive. I appreciate always your posts.
Next time I'll show up in Fodors, I'll divide the Portuguese food in 3 categories: "safe food", "more or less food" and "disgusting food", with the names in Portuguese for each one. Needless to say that the last group is my very favourite
A note for everybody: I recommend the European style of eating: fork in the left hand and knife in the right. Its not that difficult. Practice a bit as a home work. If you don't do this you'll miss the fun of some dishes as grilled fish and similar that require the usage of both hands.

David,
Talking of Fado, here are some links to places where you can take in a performance:

www.asevera.com
www.adegamesquita.com
www.casadelinhares.com
www.cafeluso.pt
www.clube-de-fado.com
www.restsrvinho.com
www.tavernadelrey.com
www.timpanas.pt
www.velhopateosantana.com

Lobo, don't know if you know any of these - I can't personally comment on how good/bad they might be.

Matt

Buying handicrafts and souvenirs:

Here are a few places worth checking out in Lisbon for things to take back...

"Artesanato Regional Português"
Praça dos Restauradores, 64.
(Hand made regional products)

"Linha Bordado"
Rua Cidade da Horta, 36a
(Hand made products inc embroidary, rugs and blankets)

"Santos Ofícios"
Rua da Madalena, 87
(Hand made products from Portugal)

"Bazar Mumi"
Largo de Santo Antonio de Se, 6,8 (Next to the cathedral)
(Hand made/painted tiles and ceramics)

"Loja da Descobrimentos"
Rua dos Bacalhoeiros, 12-a (Next to Casa dos Bicos)
(Regional Portuguese Products)

"Artesanato do Tejo"
Lisbon Welcome Centre, Rua do Arsenal, 25
(Lisbon and Tagus area handicrafts)

"Mateus Shop"
Rua Castilho, 61-b
Handicrafts from across Portugal.

So they should occupy a few minutes of your time and a few euros from your wallet!

Lobo, how are you doing sir? Dinner? Thursday? Friday?

Matt

gj05

You have to be very careful of those hovercrafts full of eels, especially on the steep cobbled streets when they race down towards you horns blaring...

Seetheworld,
Sorry I haven't had chance to reply re your vegetarian Q - the PC is still on the blink and I have limited time on the laptop when my wife isn't using it.

I'm sorry to say that the choice is limited - in most restaurants there will the offer of an omelette, or salad. In general being vegetarian isn't catered for and in the smaller villages where tourism hasnt made a mark you will receive some odd looks if you say you don't eat meat. In fact even when we go out to have family meals my wife is served fish or chicken because they aren't considered meat! Seriously. If he eats seafood he will be okay, if not seafood nor poultry his restaurant dining experiences will be disappointing. In Lisbon there are a couple of vegatarian sit down places but they are over priced for what the food is - no competition. Snack wise most coffee shops will sell savoury things o cheese sandwiches etc.

Lobo, do you know any vegetarian restaurants...

Matt

vegetarian restaurants? I don't understand the concept...

Lobo,

Thanks so much for the encouragement and all the information. I must have spent couple hours last night researching and studying all the info. regarding Lisbon. I also practiced my pronunciation so that I can get by without much embarassment. =) I read in an earlier post that you admire Ataturk greatly and was pleased to be reminded of my trip to Istanbul nearly four years ago. It brought back fond memories, the grand palaces, the fresh seafood restaurants, the friendly and beautiful people and of course, the nightly parties at city squares after Turkey would win a match in the World Cup.

Matt, thank you for posting the addresses of many stores selling regional Portuguese products. My mother in law was in Lisbon about 5 years ago and was extremely impressed by the handmade lace work. I'll be sure to stop in on several of the stores.

It is -2.7C here in Boston and with the windchill factor, it feels like
-8.3C. I can honestly say that I am looking forward to my trip!

Thanks Matt. I am looking forward to the Fado but not to my brother trying to play along. You and lobo should open a travel agency. I manage one in Manhattan. The information you provide is invaluable.

Thanks again.

David, my wife and i come over to NYC every couple of years, we were there last Sept and always use The Broadway Inn. We catch a show, a yankees game, visit friends in Brooklyn, a Jazz club (and search out many old Blue Note records to bring home) spend an afternoon browsing through the Strand Bookshop and this time saw the NY Philharmonic with Maazel - Mahler's 1st and Chopins piano concerto Nº1 with Lang Lang behind the Steinway. We love Manhattan, so next time we come over we'll have to hook up and have dinner. You know the best Pizza I've ever had was in the downstairs foodcourt of Grand Central!

We'll probably be over later this year again...

Anyway, hope to see you soon in Lisbon with Lobo,

Matt

Matt, sounds good to me. The pizza you probably had was from Two Boots, but we don't want to turn this into a NYC thread. It’s pretty great though. I like the Newman. My wife, who likes the slice with the crawfish, and I were just there. I know of some great Italian food so be sure to let me know when your coming to NYC. I hope we can hook up in June with you and Lobo in June for some fine wine. I want to go to the restaurant across from the first movie theater.

David

Matt. My brother has a house in Manhattan. If you go later this year and can squeeze us in, I will make you dinner.
If it is warm we can have a good old American BBQ.

Do you have any information about the Dao winery producers and tours. Or did I miss it if you posted something.

Thanks Matt. No, unfortunately she doesn't eat fish either. A salad, bread and cheese, or an omelette would work though. She's a flexible girl -- I'm sure she won't starve.

lobo -- You really don't know the concept of a vegetarian or are you pulling our collective legs?

Oh no, it is me again and I have yet ANOTHER question.

I have now contacted four places in Vila Nova de Milfontes. None have replied. I am leaning toward just winging it. Given it is October when we go, do you think I will have a problem getting a place for three nights? I have several addresses (via websites) and do not think there will be a problem.

Any one to comment?

I hear there are many barns with straw for bedding available at this time of year...

Thanks Matt. But I think my husband Bob is allergic to straw.
Hey, this is a big step for us to go without reservations.

First off, thank you both for all your enthusiasm and great suggestions.

Is there a particular direction in which to do the Cascais-Sintra coastal route? Note that we might splurge on a cab as opposed to the bus so that we can get out often for the views. I'm also keen to see a beach near Sintra called Praia Adraga - have either of you been there?

I slave away on the Portuguese language tape - I don't think this is a language one can master until one has drunk a lot of wine.....and speaking of dining, what was that about categorizing menus into good, disgusting and semi-disgusting fare?

Congratulations, I think you'll make it to 300 posts...

Sue. After hours spent with language tapes last year, we managed to really be able to say, Thank-you and we are lost.
I am very embarassed that I do not seem to be able to say very many words. I think it is because I am so self conscious because my pronunciation is so horrible.
I wish I could do better. But honestly, everyone was so polite even with our terrible attempts. I guess they took pity on us.

I left you alone yesterday, because of a higher purpose. I went to Caves Aliança (cellars) in Aveiro area (260 km from Lisbon) yesterday for a fine dinner. There was 4 different categories of red wine on the table, and some other brandies and champagne. A hard vision for somebody who had to drive home. As you might imagine I didn't allow myself more than a very small portion of each drink.
Now I have to pay my desertion answering to 60 mails. When I finish I'll resume my regular participation in Fodors.
Sue, the division of Portuguese food into "safe", "so-so" and "disgusting" is already in my mind, I just have to write it down.
Matt, your wife is a very nice person. Did she said she received a phone call? I must confess I felt strange when when I said: "hello, Big Bad Wolf speaking, may I talk to Matt?" She must have thought: "my husband lives in a strange world"

Lobo, I've tried to call you a number of times on the mobile no. you gave her but keep getting the machine. If it is yours have a listen. If not then some other Portuguese person is wondering "Who the hell is Lobo mau and what in heaven is this English idiot babbling on about..."

Speak as soon as,

Matt

The "safest food" I can think about is picanha. Picanha is a Brazilian style barbecue. There is one restaurant in Belem district, called... voilá... "A Picanha". It's in the block in front of Pasteis de Belem, but facing the river. You must walk around the corner, where there is a MacDo, resist to the temptation, and A Picanha is just after.
You may choose under, medium ou overdone. But A Picanha has a secrecy to take money out of unaware people. It has a fixed price, no matter how much picanha you eat, but starters are payed apart.
Usually the Brazilian staff brings lot of starters, things so odd as fried cheese and things like that. Most people eats a lot of them and when the "piece de resistence" comes there is no more apetite. In this way you pay a lot of money and have almost no picanha.
Otherwise, if the client is self-discipled enough to accept only one or 2 starters and reject the others, when Picanha comes, you may eat an half a kilo (if you are really a beef eater) of BBCed meat, for a very low cost.
This is very good value for money if you follow the rule of focusing in the main dish.

Seetheworld, "pulling your collective legs"? translation is required please...
Sher, I am a client of http://www.dunaparque.com Have you tryed? Is more like a summer resort but I believe the appartments are nice all over the year. Sometimes I go to Vila Nova Milfontes from Lisbon just for a grilled fish (and return in the same day). There is a very good pizza restaurant too. Don't get me wrong, it's not NY or even Lisbon, but for a period of 3 relaxing days, by the end of the trip, I think you couldn't be better.
My "best place in the world" is one particular experience and a particular situation in Vila Nova Milfontes, but it is always risky to say things like this.
note: I understand it's not BBC, but BBQ. BBC stands for British Broadcast Corporation.

Well, thank you lobo_mau for the duna parque reference. I am going to send tham an email.
I think my problem is that it is so early and maybe people do not take reservations this far in advance.
We have pretty much given up the idea of Madeirs. When I started looking at the places we want to visit, I just did not feel we could take the time from them to go to Madeira. It also requires a separate air fare and I do not have the energy.
I do not mind pointing out a meal for someone to cook. The only problem is that in Coimbra, no one spoke English. And we still do not know what kind of fish he grilled for us.
Every day is an adventure.

Lobo, I meant...were you teasing me when you said you did not understand what a vegetarian was?

In our case, our vegetarian does not eat any meat whatsoever, no seafood. Only eats pasta, cheese, eggs, and vegetables. This also includes NO sauces that are made from beef or chicken stock or include seafood or meat sauce.

I recently receive a nice email from Barb who has been unable to register here so I'll post her questions and my responses in the hope that someone else (lobo esp) may be able to chip in.

"Hello

Sorry to have to email to your personal emails. Fodor's will not accept Yahoo emails on the threads. -

I have been reading your wonderful thread since it began and have been saving up questions. Thank you all (you 2 are the only ones to give emails) for all the great advice on visiting Portugal.

I always put so much research into a trip that I probably spend more time on the research than the trip itself! Our trip to Portugal in late May and early June is our first. It sounds wonderful and I may be trying to fit in too much - maybe I should plan a second trip too!

Now for a couple questions:

There is so much about driving safety and I have read and even know people who have had rental cars broken into but I am not sure where. We will be arriving in and leaving from Porto because of my husband's business there. So we plan to rent a car and drive. Is it safe to stop at tourist places like Obidos and Conimbriga in between nightly stops with luggage in the car?

Here is my thought for a tour. Are the distances sensible? I know they are close but again I do not want to stop with luggage. In general does this sound like too many places?

Arrive Porto aiport and drive to Aveiro for 1 night. We get in about 4pm after leaving US the night before so I did not want to have to travel too far.

Nazare - 2 nights - travel around that area- Alcobaca, Batalha, Fatima, Tomar, Obidos

Sintra - 1 night

Lisboa - 3 nights

Coimbra - stay 2nights at Palace Bucaco

Duoro region 2 nights stay maybe Lamego

Porto 4 nights (this is for business)

Unfortunately we are a year away from getting the senior rates at Pousadas so that will have to wait for the next trip. I have searched and maybe will stick to small hotels since we are moving on every few days. So if you have any suggestions for these locations would appreciate it.

If you want to answer on the thread that is fine. Wish I could join but I have no other email to use. I always love "meeting" fodorites before a trip and getting first hand knowledge. I have never thought about actually meeting anyone in person until this thread. You are all wonderful. Keep it going and I will be there reading!"

And here's my reply...

Driving - I've done trips in my Land Rover leaving rcuksacks and stuff in the back - but all valuables and cameras etc I'll take out if stopping at a restaurant, but for a day I don't know - mind you I'm not that bothered if someone steals my clothes. For instance at Obidos there is a large public car park which is well over looked and so I would doubt anyone would break in there, esp during the day. And from what I recall of Conimbriga there is a public car park, (I went there in 98 so it may have changed since.) I guess you take your chances but during the day, well, I can't say either way what is best.

Porto to Aveiro isn't a great distance but if you are jet lagged and unused to Portuguese driving it may be a bit disconcerting. Also the possibility exists of getting lost because Portuguese road signs once off main roads are pretty bad.

I'd look at a day in Obidos and a half day each in Tomar and if religiously inclined Fatima. (I must say that not being Catholic the prospect of going there does nothing for me.) If it is just another village to visit there are plenty of others much prettier - Santarem for instance. In fact that would be a good combination, to stay in Santarem (as an option over NAzare) and head out from there. Golegã is a nice village with pretty centre close to both Tomar and Santarem. Also worth a drive from Santarem is the Grutas de Serra d'aire (I think that's what they are called - I went there once and it a very interesting drive up through the mountain roads with good views and of course the caves are most interesting)

Of course as you can see from the thread Lisbon and Sinta are well worth the time you can there, and I take it Coimbra will be on your return journey. I've been there once and had a nice coupl of days and in one restaurant ate the best "Espatada de Lulas" I've ever tried. Very photogenic up in the old town and the university area. Can't comment on the Douro regoin or Porto for that matter for I've only been to Porto once and that was very briefly. But you might consider whilst staying in Porto to drive out to Braga and Bragança, and Guimaraes. I'll post your questions and my response on the thread and that will give others the chance to chip in too.

Feel free to email me at any time, always a pleasure to hear from anyone coming over.

My best regards

Matthew

Forgot to say: Hi and Welcome Barbara!

Welcome Barbara! This is the 1st time I see somebody complainig about being young
The distances are very sensible. Aveiro is lovely. Don't forget the "ovos moles" (egg sweets). It's sinful sweet. They are sold in every coffee shops, but I'll find for you the right place to buy Ovos Moles. I'll post some details about the Caves Aliança cellars. It's not in Aveiro, but 20 minutes away.

Today's subject is Caves Aliança (CA). From their leaflet:
------------
Wines-CA produce wine form Bairrada, Beiras, Dao, Douro and Alentejo.
Sparkling wine-Takimg advantage of the Classic method, CA has been producing quality sparkling wine for more than 75 years.
Old brandies-In this space you can see the way that these spirits get old during many years in oak wood casks.
-----------
My personal note: It's not a must, if you have the option, opt for Port wine cellars in Vila Nova de Gaia (near Porto, in the opposite bank of Douro River). Wine and spirits cellars are everywhere in the world, but port wine cellars Portugal's pride.
However, if you are in Coimbra or Aveiro areas or in transit from/to Lisbon to/from Porto and you wish to do a break and try something different to visit, give CA a chance. CA shop has many fine wines, which are real bargains. I don't advise eating there because I guess it's expensive, reservation is required, and you are in Mealhada area where there are many suckling pig restaurants in a short distance.
There are tours in Portuguese, French or English, previous reservations are advised. Monday to Saturday, 10h30, 11h30, 14h30, 15h30, 16h30.
Address: Caves Aliança/Sangalhos (main street). Contacts: 234732000/45 (tel) 234732005 (fax), luciana.sardo@caves-alianca.pt (mail), www.caves-alianca.pt (web).
Take care with the drinking and driving subject!!!

Son will be married 1 1/2 hours east of Porto this August. bookmarking to use in helping all who plan to come! Thanks for this post.

Hello Everyone-
We are leaving tomorrow night for 2 nights in London, our daughter is studying over there. The three of us are going to Lisbon on Thursday for a very quick trip.
I have enjoyed the postings of Lisbon from all of you. We are staying at Hotel Tivoli Lisboa and can't wait to enjoy the city. We have been to the Algarve about 15 years ago. Portugal is a beautiful country with wonderful people.
We plan to enjoy a non-tourist evening of fado.
We love wine and hope to bring home a couple of cases - RED
Any suggestions on the wine and fado would be great.
See you there.

Well perhaps Lobo could pesuade me to leave the house for an evening with a promise of dinner and wine and a little Portuguese Blues - got plenty of wine at my place and some fado CDs...

How long will you be here for? And what are your plans?

Defenately take back some Periquita Classico, or Porca da Murça Reserva (both tinto - red).

Cheira Bem, cheira Lisboa... eh Lobo?

Welcome Alawes
I like "Parreirinha de Alfama" http://www.pai.pt/detail.asp?lang=pt&page=0&rpp=10&srch=&seq=1&queryString=term%3Dparreirinha%20alfama&item=0&origin=Result&rfr=&site=&ibn=055029050030040018049049053018050027039054080048 click mapa for map. Combine it with sightseeing from Miradouro Santa Luzia, a walk trough Alfama streets. Parreirinha is in the base of Alfama hill and impossible to get lost. Just do line of sight navigation, it's impossible to get lost. Sé (cathedral) is also a nearby spot. You should arrive for dinner by 8:30 pm. Don't forget you shouldn't talk during performance.
Parreirinha is a tiny place and overbooks easily. If you decide to go there, call in advance or then ask the hotel staff to do that for you.
Authentic Fado houses are tiny places because the artist's voice must be heard without amplification to give the intimistic touch.
My email is j1962@netcabo.pt Feel free to send any queries.
50 steps away from Parreirinha there is Fado Museum, but I don't want you to get a fado overdose.

I need to do some work or I will not be going anywhere. I have spent the whole day, reading and rereading this post. This there something wrong with Me?
Anyway, we are there only 2 1/2 days.
Plan to take tram around city to get feel. We are thinking Torre de Belem and Sao Jeronimo Monastery. Maybe a day to ourselves to Sintra, just take a train out and walk around.
My husband is big time surfer, what are waves like now? We might have to return in the summer with whole family.
I think I might need a dinner suggestion for area around hotel for Thursday night, it will be early night. We need to leave London around 6am, so we will be tired.
Of course, need shopping time. We are definitely not there long enough.
Wasn't British Airways smart...their promotion was 2 free nights in London. We had originally planned 5 nights in Lisbon. But now the English get our pounds.
I am still lucky to be going, so I can't complain. Can we make reservations on Thursday for Parreirinha de Alfama for Friday or Saturday night. Should I do it from here today?
Thanks a lot
Ann

Matt's first post of this row has enough suggestions for 2,5 weeks.
I don't see any place interesting to have dinner nearby the hotel. I'd suggest Cervejaria Trindade (Chiado area) for 1st day. Arrive there by 7 pm to avoid waiting for a table. You may get there walking down the street and then catching the elevador (funicular) to the heart of Chiado. When returning you may either take the metro or a taxi. Taxis are plenty and cheap. Metro station is very near the hotel door.
The shoping area I recommend is Baixa (Rua Augusta and surrounding streets).
If you go to Belem, don't forget Pasteis de Belem, Coches Museum and possibly restaurant "A Picanha" that I mentioned in another post.
Calling Parreirinha on the day of arrival is more than enough. You don't need to call from home.
Seetheworld, I was pulling your collective legs
Matt, I understand you have 3 good reasons to stay home We have plenty of time to start our Lisbon's dining club

Hurray - my PC works again. No more sharing the LAPTOP! So bring on the emails and dinner invitations!

Matt

My favourite Portuguese Soup:

Caldo Verde - shredded cabbage soup. Make sure to order it as a starter - but for now here's the recipe...

Boil 600 grams of potatoes, a large onion, and a couple of cloves of garlic with pinch of sea salt in about 1 1/2 litres of water. When well cooked add a generous splash of olive oil and blitz with a food processor or hand blender. Into the puree add a medium sized shredded cabbage/kale and simmer adding a sliced chouriço sausage. When the shredded cabbage is cooked through serve. Simple. With corn bread (broa) and a glass of red. (In fact my wife's grandfather used to pour half a glass of red wine into the soup and stir in - I don't know if that was his tradition or that of Beira Baixa.)

Now who can take a guess at my favourite main meal?

Matt

The secrets of the black pig?

lobo_mau. I found your restaurant in Estremoz (Adega Isaias). But I am a little confused as the book made it seem as if it was only open on Monday and Tuesday 12:00-14:00 and 20:00-22:30. Does this seem corrent to you?

Mi recently emailed a question about what to do in a swift 2 day visit to Lisbon and how to get here from Algeciras, Spain: I can advise a little re Lisbon but transport from Southern Spain to Lisbon I don't know. Anyway, here is my suggestion...(perhaps someone may suggest a better itinerary?)

Sounds like an action packed trip, my recommendations then for Sintra and Lisbon:

For Sintra you must now take the train from Entre Campos (Post this question on the thread - Lobo Mau is best to answer but I think somewhere in there is the train details) Don't go to Sintra on Monday (If that is one of your days) because I think Pena Palace will be closed. At the top of the mountain you must visit Pena Palace, the gardens (park) and Moorish Castle. In the village itself just walk through the streets and visit the coffee shops which Lobo recommends.

For Lisbon on the other day I would do this. Coffee and breakfast in Baixa and go up the Elevador Santa Justa take the tourist tram (the old quarter route) red tram from Praca do Commercio. In the afternoon catch the train from Cias do Sodre to Belem and visit Geronimos Monestary (Mosteiro Geronimos) Tor de Belem and monument to the discoveries. Have a couple of Pasteis de Belem in the famous coffee shop wich can easily be found more or less opposite Mcdonalds. In the evening go to Bairo Alto for drinks and the nightlife. That will be a great days touring and give you a nice insight into Lisbon I think.

Re from Spain to Portugal I don't know, post on the thread, Someone might know the answer. I'll put up your questions and my responses and hopefully someone else might chip in too.

Take care and feel free to email me anytime,

Matt

So welcome Mi - hope that we'll see you here soon adding to the thread.

It certainly aint secrets of the black pig...

Sher, what kind of book are you reading??? I guess the guy who wrote it had too much red This site http://viajar.clix.pt/pt/cmr3237.php?t=1&lg=en# says it is closed on Sundays. It makes much more sense. If it makes you more confident, I may confirm with them

My first list of foods. Needless to say that my preference increases from the begining to the end of the post
----
Safe food: Picanha (Brazilian BBQ), bitoque (small steak, egg and liberty fries), febras grelhadas (grilled meat), bife (steak), secrets of black pig, bifinhos de espadarte (boneless swordfish), entrecosto, filetes de pescada (boneless pieces of fried fish), big mac, pizza hut
So-So food: arroz de marisco (rice with shellfish), carne de porco alentejana (pork&clams), bacalhau com natas (cod fish and cream), caldeirada (stew of several fish), any grilled fish
Disgusting food: cozido a portuguesa (french pot au feu), feijoada (beans and pork meat), dobrada (tripe), pork maxilar bones, pig feet, pig ears
----
my criteria to fill: whatever I love, I included in "disgusting food". Then I asked to my teenager son if he likes, whatever he said "yes", I included in the "safe food". The remaining are the "so-so food"

Don't be a coward Lobo - translate Segredos do Porco Preto, and I don't mean the literal...

A black pig is a pig that happens to be black. It is native to the Alentejo region, is grown almost exclusively with "bolotas", the fruit of "azinheira" tree.
It has a part called "lombo" (pork loin). The side parts of the pork loin are sliced, grilled and they are called "secretos de porco preto". (secrets of black pig).

I'm glad you cleared that up - I always thought it was testicles! Now I might actually try some next time I see them on a menu! LOL

lobo_mau. I am sure the book was just mistaken. I cannot remember which guide book it was, I have looked at dozens.
No need to check with them. I take your word for it.

Testicles are called "tubaros". I think that it's possible to find but it's not a common food in Portugal, and never find in a restaurant menu.
I was told they can be juicy, but I've never tried myself.

Yeah, Sher, me too - I'm taking Lobos word that secrets of the black pig are not deep fried testicles...

It's not a good policy to trust somebody who calls himself big bad wolf
But, since my doctor said I have acid uric slightly high and I should avoid young meats, I adopted PC practices, became vegetarian and I have everyday the 5 o'clock tea with grandmother.
Ok, it's becoming late and tomorrow is a working day. Feel free to email j1962@netcabo.pt

Actually, I have had deep fried testicles. They didn't make much of an impression except for my dining companions who were disappointed by my reaction when they told me what I was actually eating.

Sher, it's confirmed. Closed at Sundays and holydays. dinner period from 7:15pm to 10:00 pm. tel: 268322318.
My advice for any restaurant in any part of Portugal: go early. Locals have lunch by 1pm and dinner by 8pm. That said, if you go 45 minutes in advance you got better service and (likely) no waiting time.

Wine seems to be a constant on this thread: I've mentioned a few labels previously and I've been checking prices today for you.

J.P Tinto 1.79 euros
Nico Tinto 1.35
Porca da Murça 1.88
Terra Franca 1.99
Borba 2.89

All the above are reasonable to good bog standard table wines.

One to consider taking back to lay up:

Periquita 3.48
Periquita Classico 13.95
Porca da Murça Reserva (2002) 6.79

All reds of course. For me I'd rather take a couple of Porca da Murca reservas over 1 Periquita classico but then I find it hard to lay anything down for more than a day or two! Perhaps the classico is best left in a dark dusty cellar for a few years...

And for those of you who like "To Drink Pink" Mateus Rose comes in two sizes:

.75 litre 2.99
1.50 litres 6.49

Why I say cheaper to buy 2 smaller bottles.

Matt

Hey All

I had to get a new email JUST so I could become a Fodorite and join this thread. That is how great you all are.

Thanks to Matt and Sher for answering my personal emails and now I can address everyone.

Thanks lobo_mau for all the food and wine info. We do like to eat and drink our way through a vacation.

I am about settled on itinerary details although this is so time consuming! But I love reading all your posts and have gotten so many great suggestions. And it is still over 2 months to our trip. Looks like a lot of posters to this thread will be in Portugal about the same time! Shall we wear special hats or something?!

A couple questions:

Is June 10 a holiday? I have seen it listed some places but not others. Will things be closed? This working around Mondays and holidays is the toughest part of planning the trip.

We will have a car but just plan to park it while in Lisbon. So I have looked mostly at hotels with parking. Do you think they have their own or use public lots? What should we expect to pay above the hotel cost? One hotel, The Turim, gave me the impression it would be about 20 Euros a day. Seem right?

Again thanks for keeping this going and giving us all such wonderful information, links, etc.

Barbara

Hi Barbara. Welcome.
I just wanted to give you this website that namanka passed on to me. I thought of you when I read about it because there is parking under the building but he doesn't say how much.
The owner wrote to me very promptly. The cost is going to be about $120 per night. It is more apartment than we need, but it is in a great location.

Also, if I already told you this please forgive me, but we looked into the VIP EDen and they have parking and it is 8E a day. I have no first hand experience of either place. You are so brave to drive into Lisbon.

Please let us know what you decide.

Also, since you just really joined us, trip reports are mandatory.

Sherry

Sherry, Americans aren't brave when driving in Portugal and Lisbon, it's the same side of the road. Imagine me when I came over in 97, driving up the wrong side of the road, wrong way on roundabouts, entering and exiting car parks etc. Couldn't afford a tank - that's why I drive a Land Rover!

And Barbara, as I've said - glad to have you onboard.

Matt

Matt. When we went to Ireland two years ago and I was driving I don't know how many times my husband said to me "you are going to take that mirror right off of the car!!!
I didn't have a problem with the rest of Portugal, but I really am timid with the thoughts of Lisbon.

Thanks Sher I did look at that when it was first posted. It looks perfect but unfortunately it was unavailbale the days we will be in Lisbon. I will take another look at the Eden. I thought at first it was in maybe a noisy area. Plus it is more expensive when we are there over a weekend in June.

By the way - I did finally hear from Secret Places. They could not really help on what I wanted but I hope you have heard from them.

We have driven in Paris, Milan, Vienna, etc. but chickened out in Britain last year - we did trains everywhere. We are too old for learning to drive on the left and figured it would just be too stressful for a fun vacation.

I am prepared for the worse driving in Portugal however!

Barbara

Hi Barb, welcome as a full right member.
10th June is a national holiday. You won't notice much difference except maybe supermarkets and pharmacies have reduced service. I believe that restaurants, malls and most business is runing as usual. Check museums.
13th June is a holiday in Lisbon and some areas, but not a nationwide holiday.
Sher, I believe VIP Eden doesn't have it's own parking. I think they use Restauradores parking (maybe with some agreement or reserved places for hotel's guests).

Barbara. I don't think you will have a problem with the driving in Portugal.
I am not saying in the cities, but on the open road.
I contacted Secret Places for a couple of places for this trip, but decided on others instead. But Lisbon, I am having a hard time making up my mind. I am really yearning for some really expensive hotels, but my common sense says to go more budget. I could spend the extra money on nice dinners and wine and shopping.
That apartment is open when we will be there, but it is really more apartment than we need. And we could find something in the same area for a lot less for our time period.

Barbara-what days are you going to be in Lisbon? I will be there at the apartment that Sher told you about from the 19th through the 30th of June. I also know of a couple of others that I was considering; If you tell me your dates and how many people and budget, I could pass along the others?

I don't want to make anybody's minds, since I haven't ever seen a inside of a hotel room in Lisbon and I don't wish to comment on decorations, sizes and so on. But it has always been a surprise to me why doesn't Hotel Ibis Saldanha deserve more attention. It belongs to the Accor chain, it's new, the area where it quite central (not Baixa/Chiado, I know), has good transports and a room for 2 is 59 euros. Shopping and business centre Atrium Saldanha is the next block. There are plenty buses, the metro station Saldanha is 50 steps away. It's easier to navigate outside of Lisbon than Baixa/Chiado for people with a car. Avis rent a car has a pick/drop point 100 steps away. The ground floor of Atrium Saldanha has a piano with live music everydays from 6 to 8 pm. Around the piano there are snack bars, salad bars, pizza bars, coffee shops, pita shoarma restaurant, international press, etc, making it ideal for a relaxing period before going to the hotel. A light meal may cost about 10 euros. The piano listening is free. Please note that there is another Ibis Hotel that I don't recommend, since it's location is less convenient.

Barbara, we were in Portugal last year and drove everywhere without a problem. Driving in Italy is far worse!

We drove in Lisbon, Cascais, Sintra, all along the coast in that area and further north. Then we drove down to the Algarve and drove everywhere we wanted to go. Never a problem. Highways are well marked and roads there were better than here in Boston! In little towns, there will be narrow roads but those were not an issue either.

Have fun! We loved Portugal!

lobo_mau. The Ibis probably does not get more consideration from people here because it is a chain hotel with nondescript rooms a bus or metro ride from the central part of old Lisbon.
This is my guess as to why it is not given more consideration.
For very little more, one can stay off Rossio or Rua Augusta.
I could be wrong, but this could be a reason.

Thanks Sher, I got the idea. However I found worthwhile to bring to the thread the reference of an unexpensive and decent hotel, that may be useful for budget travelers.
I bring to you something that will make your travels to Portugal much more fun. http://www.oddcast.com/home/demos/tts/frameset.php?frame1=talk
It's a text to speech, is free, doesn't require any installation and it's perfect. The version in Portuguese (European) is so good that I believe it's difficult to distinguish between the machine and a human.
Don't forget that the diacritical accents are an integral part of Portuguese Language and "Amalia" only reads the words correctly if they are present.
Insert in the box "joão" (don't forget the tiled a), "lobo mau", "bom dia" and many other portuguese words you may think of. Have a funny morning

I am using post 293 to propose that the honour of the 300th post goes to Sher who has been a regular "face" in this thread. What say you?

Matt

Thanks Matt. I am sure people are getting really tired of seeing my name come up with my endless questions.

But I just ordered three more guide books. Yippee.

Matt, I had the same suggestion do to. You have antecipated...
Did anyone inserted the text "João" in the TTS engine I've suggested? I guess the outcome is different from what you expected. "João" is a difficult word, but "Amália" says it perfectly

Now do not laugh. But I do not know how to put that special mark over the a.

Just copy (from this site or any other) and paste (into the box).
João and many other words ending by ão, like cão (dog), pão (bread), etc, have an ending sound that is specific to Portuguses language and doesn't exist in any other.
I understand it's difficult for no native speakers, but the girl "Amalia" in the TTS engine says it with great perfection

I just discovered this thread and have been spending most of my day reading it and going to the links. Wow! what alot of great information. My family and I will be in Portugal for 2 1/2 weeks in late June early July. We will spend 8 days in Salema in the Algarve then drive to Evora, Mansaraz, Sintra then Lisbon. We have 3 children ages 8, 11 and 15. How about ideas for fun with kids in Lisbon? My husband and I love museums, architecture and good wine but my kids tire of these quickly.(the museums and architecture. They don't drink wine.) I am still exploring your recommendations on places to stay but may have more questions on that later if that is o.k. thanks for this great thread.

I think it should be Matt.

o.k. lobo_mau. I cave in.

Actually, I did have a question about the houses inside the Castelo walls. I found a very nice looking apartment on a street that is inside the walls.
It says you have to walk through the arch and take a three minute walk to the house.
Is that all up hill? Is it difficult to get a taxi in that area.
We did not go into the Alfama area, nor did we see the Castelo on our last trip. I have no idea from the discription what I would be getting into.

Thank you Sher!!
I wrote this and waited for a regular to be the #300!

namaka: Thanks for the offer. There are only 2 of us so a hotel is really all we need. I did look at some of the links of other apartments for the fun of it and they look great but having a car is the problem. Guess we will continue to look for hotels with parking. We will be there June 1,2,3. Also for only 3 nights a hotel is probably fine.

Marianna: thanks for the confidence builder. My son lives outside Boston and you are right - if we can drive there we can drive anywhere!

lobo mau: food, wine, hotels and now even language. You are an endless wealth of information. I could only get it to work for a minute however and then I could only get to the company web page. Did I miss something?

barb,
I know you sound set on hotel but let me just add that the apartment that I am getting has a "free" underground parking garage. Just another big draw to this place for me. Just a thought!