The real effect of vacation apartments in Paris
Oct 27th, 2015, 01:06 AM
#1
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The real effect of vacation apartments in Paris
There was an informative segment on France2 last night about AirBnB's effect in Paris, including the information that last year, there were more apartments in the Marais rented through AirBnB than there are actual residents living in the 3rd and 4th arrondissement combined.
The owners or managers who were interviewed admitted that they did not declare or pay taxes on their rental income, and didn't have any problem with that until or unless they got caught. They weren't pleased that AirBnB now requires them to collect hotel tax, because this makes them more visible to the authorities. There are several "concierge services" representing absentee owners (many of whom own multiple properties) who would rather not deal with renters, and who are paid 20% of the rental fees. The concierge service is a legitimate tax-paying business, and isn't worried about representing illegal rentals, since any fines or interdiction to rent will be the owners' concern. Two representatives of the Mayor's office were shown entering an apartment and interviewing a British family, and their report was added to the dossier of an owner illegally renting multiple properties. Though only 120 apartments were taken off the market in 2015 by the Mayor's office, the investigations are on-going.
This article contains some of the same information. It's very interesting to "animate the reviews", which shows the astounding growth of this industry, especially in the "Temple" and "Hotel de Ville" areas. It is easy to understand the frustrations of people who want to live and work in Paris, and who are not able to do so because of the development of the illegal vacation rental industry.
http://insideairbnb.com/paris/index....Listings=false
The owners or managers who were interviewed admitted that they did not declare or pay taxes on their rental income, and didn't have any problem with that until or unless they got caught. They weren't pleased that AirBnB now requires them to collect hotel tax, because this makes them more visible to the authorities. There are several "concierge services" representing absentee owners (many of whom own multiple properties) who would rather not deal with renters, and who are paid 20% of the rental fees. The concierge service is a legitimate tax-paying business, and isn't worried about representing illegal rentals, since any fines or interdiction to rent will be the owners' concern. Two representatives of the Mayor's office were shown entering an apartment and interviewing a British family, and their report was added to the dossier of an owner illegally renting multiple properties. Though only 120 apartments were taken off the market in 2015 by the Mayor's office, the investigations are on-going.
This article contains some of the same information. It's very interesting to "animate the reviews", which shows the astounding growth of this industry, especially in the "Temple" and "Hotel de Ville" areas. It is easy to understand the frustrations of people who want to live and work in Paris, and who are not able to do so because of the development of the illegal vacation rental industry.
http://insideairbnb.com/paris/index....Listings=false
Oct 27th, 2015, 01:43 AM
#2
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The illegal vacation rental industry is a problem and I have no sympathy when owners get busted and people show up to learn that they can't stay in that property because the owner wanted to try and skirt the law.
Oct 27th, 2015, 01:57 AM
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Good summary.
I did calculate once the money 'lost' on taxes not collected - it is enormous.
France 2 hein ? On dirait que je ne suis plus le seul francophone sur ce forum. (Français ? Belge ? Suisse ou expat qui maîtrise vachement bien le français ?).
Je me rends d'ailleurs compte que je ne t'ai pas souhaité la bienvenue.
Mvg
I did calculate once the money 'lost' on taxes not collected - it is enormous.
France 2 hein ? On dirait que je ne suis plus le seul francophone sur ce forum. (Français ? Belge ? Suisse ou expat qui maîtrise vachement bien le français ?).
Je me rends d'ailleurs compte que je ne t'ai pas souhaité la bienvenue.
Mvg
Oct 27th, 2015, 03:19 AM
#6
Dans Le Figaro de ce jour il y a un autre article édifiant concernant les locations "Airbnb" où l'on apprend que le 'champion' du site propose 143 logements différents, suivi d'un autre avec 93 logements... incroyable.
http://tinyurl.com/o79esup
http://tinyurl.com/o79esup
Oct 27th, 2015, 04:15 AM
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I used a legal agency and talked to my landlord. She owned the building except for the top apartment. She pays taxes. We did it with a credit card through the agency not with cash euros. She had three apartments. She and her family occupied two of them. We had the whole 3rd floor. I don't really like the communication via airbnb with the landlord. I have used them in the states but not so crazy about using them in Europe.
Oct 27th, 2015, 04:29 AM
#8
Merci beaucoup pour le leçon français. Je suis toujours heureuse de lire et d'écrire le français, bien que cette site ce n'est pas peut-être la meilleure place pour cette discussions politique en français parce-que les plus personnes ici ne le parlent pas.
Oct 27th, 2015, 04:29 AM
#9
Je ne trouve pas ça incroyable. Airbnb ne sont pas vraiment essayer de faire le travail correctement. Comme liong comme ils font de l'argent , ils ne se soucient pas trop. Désolé pour mon français rouillée.
Is that really how you say "rusty" in French in relation to the language.?
Is that really how you say "rusty" in French in relation to the language.?
Oct 27th, 2015, 05:07 AM
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I thought I'd clicked on the wrong forum for a mo...
AirBnB has been aggressively recruiting people in Amsterdam, phoning them up several times, and not taking a no for an answer, including telling those that dare to say no that they are idiots. Delightful.
AirBnB says this is not the way they work and apologise for over enthusiastic staff, but the harassment continues.
Cold calling like this is illegal when the phone number is on the do not call list, but what does that matter to a company like AirBnB?
AirBnB has been aggressively recruiting people in Amsterdam, phoning them up several times, and not taking a no for an answer, including telling those that dare to say no that they are idiots. Delightful.
AirBnB says this is not the way they work and apologise for over enthusiastic staff, but the harassment continues.
Cold calling like this is illegal when the phone number is on the do not call list, but what does that matter to a company like AirBnB?
Oct 27th, 2015, 05:27 AM
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What you have in Paris is the issue of EU borders in microcosm.
In theory, there are supposed to be 'borders' around Parisian apartments, in the sense that those apartments are supposed to only be rented to tenants with minimum duration leases only, but not to the open market at large. (As I understand the system there are exceptions to this rule, but that is the general intent - to regulate who sleeps where.) In other words, flow - of money, of people - into and out of those apartments is supposed to restricted/regulated.
However, Paris itself is 'border -free' with respect to the movement of people and money. I know little about what kinds of capital controls are imposed when it comes to the purchase of Parisian properties. As for this, the flow of rental income as generated by tourists, here is how I see it: We tourists are temporary immigrants of very short duration. Once across the 'border' of Paris, of France and the EU itself for that matter, it is extremely difficult to ensure where the flow of tourists (and their money) goes at night to sleep. It is easy to check if tourists are staying in legally rented apartments and hotels, etc., but not so easy to check where they are staying if they are NOT staying in hotels, or legally rented apartments.
The inconvenient truth is that we tourists bring money to support restaurants and shops and so forth, but as with other immigrants, we compete to a certain extent for physical living space. Attempts to regulate that competition are failing, because the flow of people itself is only very loosely regulated. The 'borders' around those Parisian apartments in effect don't exist, unless they are physically monitored in some way. Regulation of rentals is a form of social program, and open borders where social programs are in operation, or supposed to be, is a conflict for which I don't see any ready resolution.
In theory, there are supposed to be 'borders' around Parisian apartments, in the sense that those apartments are supposed to only be rented to tenants with minimum duration leases only, but not to the open market at large. (As I understand the system there are exceptions to this rule, but that is the general intent - to regulate who sleeps where.) In other words, flow - of money, of people - into and out of those apartments is supposed to restricted/regulated.
However, Paris itself is 'border -free' with respect to the movement of people and money. I know little about what kinds of capital controls are imposed when it comes to the purchase of Parisian properties. As for this, the flow of rental income as generated by tourists, here is how I see it: We tourists are temporary immigrants of very short duration. Once across the 'border' of Paris, of France and the EU itself for that matter, it is extremely difficult to ensure where the flow of tourists (and their money) goes at night to sleep. It is easy to check if tourists are staying in legally rented apartments and hotels, etc., but not so easy to check where they are staying if they are NOT staying in hotels, or legally rented apartments.
The inconvenient truth is that we tourists bring money to support restaurants and shops and so forth, but as with other immigrants, we compete to a certain extent for physical living space. Attempts to regulate that competition are failing, because the flow of people itself is only very loosely regulated. The 'borders' around those Parisian apartments in effect don't exist, unless they are physically monitored in some way. Regulation of rentals is a form of social program, and open borders where social programs are in operation, or supposed to be, is a conflict for which I don't see any ready resolution.
Oct 27th, 2015, 06:01 AM
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Well, this subject might as well be written in ancient Sanskrit, since many people don't want to hear about the details or are extremely pro-rentals.
I omitted one interview, which was with the landlord of an apartment who had just discovered that his tenant had been subletting the apartment during 10 months out of his yearly lease. The tenant was evicted as soon as the landlord was alerted by the neighbors, but not until after he had made a small fortune in cash.
AirBnB is offering one lucky couple the chance to spend Halloween night in a cosy bed with complimentary champagne, located in the Paris Catacombes - this was arranged by AirBnB in exchange for donating 350,000 EU to the city for badly-needed repairs in this location. There are restrictions, though - guards will be present to ensure that the couple doesn't stray outside of a tightly-controlled area, come in contact with the bones, etc. The contest was closed on Oct 20, but no winner has yet been announced. There is much criticism about the Mayor's decision to accept this donation, which many feel is "dirty money".
AirBnB has a certain genius for advertising.
It is true that the company itself is legal and does nothing illegal in Paris, especially since it has agreed to make collection of hotel tax mandatory. AirBnB claims to be an advertising agency which simply lists rental property, and as such, has no interest or responsibility to investigate its clients or assure that its clients declare income or report tax to the authorities.
However, AirBnB does actively entice people to list property for rent, and make lots of money doing so, whether or not they have the right to rent legally in Paris.
As far as "the family who owns an entire building in Paris" goes, the rentals would be legal if family members permanently residing in Paris only rented the apartments for up to 4 months per year. Otherwise, the entire building would have had to be declared a commercial enterprise and would have to pay exorbitant taxes to the city, as well as charge the hotel tax. I'm sure that the agency itself was operating legally, however. As with AirBnB, an agency is not responsible for ensuring that their clients adhere to the law.
I omitted one interview, which was with the landlord of an apartment who had just discovered that his tenant had been subletting the apartment during 10 months out of his yearly lease. The tenant was evicted as soon as the landlord was alerted by the neighbors, but not until after he had made a small fortune in cash.
AirBnB is offering one lucky couple the chance to spend Halloween night in a cosy bed with complimentary champagne, located in the Paris Catacombes - this was arranged by AirBnB in exchange for donating 350,000 EU to the city for badly-needed repairs in this location. There are restrictions, though - guards will be present to ensure that the couple doesn't stray outside of a tightly-controlled area, come in contact with the bones, etc. The contest was closed on Oct 20, but no winner has yet been announced. There is much criticism about the Mayor's decision to accept this donation, which many feel is "dirty money".
AirBnB has a certain genius for advertising.
It is true that the company itself is legal and does nothing illegal in Paris, especially since it has agreed to make collection of hotel tax mandatory. AirBnB claims to be an advertising agency which simply lists rental property, and as such, has no interest or responsibility to investigate its clients or assure that its clients declare income or report tax to the authorities.
However, AirBnB does actively entice people to list property for rent, and make lots of money doing so, whether or not they have the right to rent legally in Paris.
As far as "the family who owns an entire building in Paris" goes, the rentals would be legal if family members permanently residing in Paris only rented the apartments for up to 4 months per year. Otherwise, the entire building would have had to be declared a commercial enterprise and would have to pay exorbitant taxes to the city, as well as charge the hotel tax. I'm sure that the agency itself was operating legally, however. As with AirBnB, an agency is not responsible for ensuring that their clients adhere to the law.
Oct 27th, 2015, 06:02 AM
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" bien que cette site ce n'est pas peut-être la meilleure place pour cette discussions"
In my day, I'd have got six ferulas for that.
It was "bien que cette site <b> ne soit pas </b> peut-être la meilleure place"... Has the Academie Francaise changed the rules, or is Cornwall on a different language zone?
In my day, I'd have got six ferulas for that.
It was "bien que cette site <b> ne soit pas </b> peut-être la meilleure place"... Has the Academie Francaise changed the rules, or is Cornwall on a different language zone?
Oct 27th, 2015, 06:13 AM
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Sue_xx_yy - Do you live in a condo or other building with regulations? If so, I'm willing to bet that there are restrictions concerning subletting and short-term rentals, and I'll bet that the residents' association is very pro-active when members break the rules.
This is how the majority of residential buildings in Paris are set up, and the rules about who does or does not have access to the property and what they may do while occupying it, are very strict indeed. This includes property owners, whether or not they reside in Paris, as well as their tenants.
Tourists are not immigrants. Tourists are just passing through. It's nice that they leave some money behind, but this fact justifies nothing and does not gloss over the fact that tourists - and the agencies that cater to them - should be held responsible for the significant reduction in available housing for the people who need and want it most.
This is how the majority of residential buildings in Paris are set up, and the rules about who does or does not have access to the property and what they may do while occupying it, are very strict indeed. This includes property owners, whether or not they reside in Paris, as well as their tenants.
Tourists are not immigrants. Tourists are just passing through. It's nice that they leave some money behind, but this fact justifies nothing and does not gloss over the fact that tourists - and the agencies that cater to them - should be held responsible for the significant reduction in available housing for the people who need and want it most.
Oct 27th, 2015, 06:28 AM
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If there are legal rentals how do you find them? The major companies that rent don't seem to specify on their websites (I did a quick check on Vacation In Paris and ParisPerfect). The Paris CVB website even lists apartments. If they are not legal how does the government not crack down on them for listing?
Please don't reply with snark or "stay in a hotel or don't come" because I would really like to know the answer.
For my upcoming trip to Spain and Italy I found some companies that are legal with tax identifier numbers clearly stated on their websites. They also clearly state the city tax amounts to be collected on arrival.
Please don't reply with snark or "stay in a hotel or don't come" because I would really like to know the answer.
For my upcoming trip to Spain and Italy I found some companies that are legal with tax identifier numbers clearly stated on their websites. They also clearly state the city tax amounts to be collected on arrival.
