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The ever-popular Chip and Pin Credit Card

The ever-popular Chip and Pin Credit Card

Old Aug 28th, 2015, 05:37 AM
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The ever-popular Chip and Pin Credit Card

I have received chip cards for two of our cards, but neither has given us a pin. Yesterday when I called to authorize the cards for travel in Europe, I neglected to ask about the pin. Here in the US, I'm finding that we're asked to sign for these transactions just as we signed for swipe card transactions. Will I have a problem in northern Europe using these cards? Thank you in advance to all.
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Old Aug 28th, 2015, 05:53 AM
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No problem. The operator will insert the card in the reader and ask you for a signature on the slip. I can't vouch for pay at the pump gas stations or highway tolls, but otherwise you should have no difficulty.
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Old Aug 28th, 2015, 05:59 AM
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We didn't have a problem using our chip card with tolls or gas stations in France and Italy. The first time we used it was in the subway in Paris and we didn't realize you have to leave it in the reader for a while rather than just swiping it. The subway guy didn't speak English, our French is limited, so he got a bit upset with us. Finally, it all worked out.
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Old Aug 28th, 2015, 06:17 AM
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Timely question. There was a reporter on the Today Show this morning who indicated he had just visited Europe and had to input a PIN when using his chip card. I called our bank (Chase) and they indicated we would not need a PIN, just a signature.
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Old Aug 28th, 2015, 07:13 AM
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This is answered in thread after thread. I'll keep it short here and you can click on my name and read some of my other replies.

The answer to your question, 99.9% of the time is a resounding NO, you don't need a pin. For better o worse, the US banks have decided to go with chip and signature cards. The vast majority of cards you get with a chip will require a signature. Some will fall back on pins on a very few occasions but that is changing. So don't worry and your cards will almost always be accepted everywhere you try to use them with a signature (or nothing). To see a fuller explanation, click on my name and read some of my longer responses.
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Old Aug 28th, 2015, 07:49 AM
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There really is no one answer other than to take two cards. I had a chip card that did not work at a supermarket in Germany (manned cashier), so there's no guarantee that a card will work everywhere.

Not sure what "northern Europe" means, but you will need some kind of chip in Denmark, as swipe cards are not widely accepted there.

Also, depending on how off the beaten path you are, you may have to coach the cashier on what the proper steps are with handling a chip and sign card.
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Old Aug 28th, 2015, 07:54 AM
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I think the answer to whether PIN less is ok or not depends on the amount of transaction and the type of merchant for unmanned transactions. I have used my CHIP and PIN card at a RATP vending machine, and it did not ask for anything, no signature no pin, before popping out carnet. It was just over 10€. I would not extrapolate this to imply there is no problem, no difficulty, being PIN less for all transactions for all amounts for all merchants.
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Old Aug 28th, 2015, 08:06 AM
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The usefulness of the card will vary, but it will be more useful than a swipe card. Manned operations will ask for a signature. I am currently traveling in Europe (northern Germany, Scandinavia and the UK so far) and have been asked for identifying info on some occasions as well as a signature. While my card gives preference to signature, it will operate with a PIN in unmanned machines, and sometimes with no PIN. If your card has no PIN you will likely be unable to use it in unmanned machines - e.g. at the Vasa museum in Stockholm there was a separate line for people with chip and PIN cards, ticket machines in train stations wanted PINs.
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Old Aug 28th, 2015, 08:14 AM
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Even if you got a PIN for it (which you often cannot do that quickly, some of my cards, it comes by mail, others I think I can change by phone), it probably wouldn't be the same as a chip and PIN card as it isn't that type. I have PINs for all my credit cards, whether they have chips or not, as that's the only way to use them in ATMs to get cash (which I've never had to do, it's just my emergency backup plan). But that's not the same thing.

Some Parisian RATP machines don't require chip and PIN cards, just any credit card. I don't have a chip and PIN card and I could buy things from them. It's the SNCF machines that I think require them.

I just viewed that TOday segment online, and the reporter did claim he had to use a PIN (I think he said he was in Europe). He didn't say what bank/company his card was from, though. I think there are a couple that are actually chip and PIN in the US, although rare. So given his poor reporting, you don't know what he was talking about or if it was even true (or maybe he used it in an ATM). The rest of the story confused the subject, also, by making it sound the cards were the same (chip and PIN vs chip and signature) and that it was just the US card readers that were different and didn't require the PIN. This isn't true, obviously, as when I use my CHIP and signature card in Europe, they can tell it needs a signature, not PIN.
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Old Aug 28th, 2015, 08:25 AM
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Thanks for all the answers. I had read several other threads on the subject, including the most extensive which xyz references, but the most recent in depth discussion is almost a year old. I'm sure that many of us who didn't explicitly seek a chip and pin card have now received their first chip card and are concerned since they aren't certain of the detail of how this works. Our travels may be off the beaten path, but all travel will be in Netherlands, France, and Belgium. Since we leave in 2 days, we'll just have to work it out. We have some Euros with us in a pinch. The comment about cash being accepted reluctantly was a surprise to me.
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Old Aug 28th, 2015, 10:17 AM
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Pure chip and pin available today to US citizens and others residing in the US sometimes, UNFCU and First Tech FCU. That's it. Many banks have cards which are signature preferred; if the terminal accepts signatures it will require a signature. Almost all manned and womanned pos terminals do so which is why if you have an American issued credit card you will almost always be asked to sign at a point of sale terminal. Unpersonneled kiosks are somewhat murkier. Many cards, such as Andrews FCU, Barclays Bank USA, USAA offer cards that if signature fails in an unpersonneled kiosk, it falls back on what is called offline pin which was the standard in Europe for years. However, many cards say all those issued by JP Morgan Chase, Capital One even though most today have chips, do not list off line pin as a possible card verification method (cvm). The networks claim to have issued new regulations prohibiting kiosks from summarily rejecting cards which have no provision for offline pin. The best example I can give are the machines operated by SNCF say if you arrive at CDG and wish to take the RER into Paris. For many years, they rejected cards which lacked pins whether magnetic strip or emv chip. That has changed and last June, I used a chip and signature card which requested nothing in one of their machines. Machines operated by RATP have continued throughout to even take magnetic strip cards. (RATP is the local Paris transit agency; SNCF is the French National railroad). Also be aware there are some countries, such as Germany and Holland which refuse to embrace 21st century technology and where cashT is king. One might have trouble in those countries using any credit cards outside touristy areas and at places like supermarkets.

That's how it stands today. So chip and signature cards should be for the most part fine in Europe.
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Old Aug 28th, 2015, 12:29 PM
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Also be aware there are some countries, such as Germany and Holland which refuse to embrace 21st century technology and where cashT is king.

I'll agree when it comes to Germany, and disagree as concerns Holland where some cafés in Amsterdam do not accept any cash.
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Old Aug 28th, 2015, 01:15 PM
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We just returned from Iceland, Norway and Sweden. I got a Barclay card which is a chip and pin card but at any manned place they made us sign. The only time we used the pin was to get gas, at the airport to buy bus and train passes and in museums at unmanned terminals. You should be fine unless traveling in remote areas where there are unmanned gas stations. Just carry some local currency if you are going through tolls or for parking meters ( we had that problem in southern France which is why I got the Barclay card). We actually went through three weeks of travel and never used any local currency. Everyone took plastic. Have a great trip.
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Old Aug 28th, 2015, 01:30 PM
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Michael...I respectfully disagree about Holland. For example, although it is possible it has changed since the new cc regs have gone into effect, you could not use non pin cards anywhere on the Dutch National Railroad either at the machines or at the ticket windows except at one window at Centraal Station and not at all for local Amsterdam transport. Now it is possible it has changed recently but when last I was there, I did have difficulty using cards of any sort.
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Old Aug 28th, 2015, 01:51 PM
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you could not use non pin cards anywhere on the Dutch National Railroad either at the machines or at the ticket windows except at one window at Centraal Station and not at all for local Amsterdam transport.

I used my ATM/debit card successfully to reload my local transportation card in Amsterdam's Centraal Station--it was not always easy, and I gave up at times, but the point is that for the Dutch, cards are replacing cash, which is not the case to the same degree in Germany (or Switzerland, for that matter). My non-pin credit card was accepted everywhere except at official train station ticket counters, and even then, a clerk once offered to slide it since her reader had the capability--I would have tried to use my ATM/debit card at a kiosk except that I did not know how to choose the various scheduling options and I hate to be the one holding up the line that would have invariably stood behind me.
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Old Aug 28th, 2015, 10:32 PM
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I live in the Netherlands, and I live cash free. I never carry any cash, I pay for everything by card. Not credit card, but debit card. Credit cards are not widely accepted, but a debit card with PIN is accepted pretty much everywhere.
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Old Aug 29th, 2015, 11:01 AM
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I got a Barclay card which is a chip and pin card but at any manned place they made us sign.

It will make things a lot easier to understand if everyone maintains the classic definition of chip & PIN vs. chip & signature. When using your card at a manned location (typically defined as the default transaction), if you must sign to complete the purchase; you have a chip & signature card.

Most all cards are issued with PINs. Even many of the old magnetic strip cards had PINs. Simply having a PIN associated with a card does not make it a chip & PIN card.

However, beyond the default transaction, different banks setup their verification methods differently (CVM). This understandably causes a lot of confusion among users. Bank criteria is why sometimes you are not asked for a PIN nor a signature (no CVM) and other times you may be required to enter a PIN at an unmanned locations such as pay at the pump stations.

Chip technology is redoubtably more secure than magnetic strip. Unfortunately, most US banks have opted for the less secure chip & signature standard.
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Old Aug 29th, 2015, 12:15 PM
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Not to argue with the above and I have always felt things like this, as well as measurements and temperature scales should be uniform throughout the world and been criticized for that, in reality it is the chip in and of itself that provides the added security and, at least for now, is not being cloned to any degree unlike magnetic strips. The difference between chip and signature and chip and pin only comes into play if the actual physical card is lost or stolen. Signatures provide no security whatsoever. Do you think some 16 year old student is really going to get involved in challenging somebody if the signatures don't match. Of course, Americans do understand that more and more are signatures not checked (think of the last time you went to the supermarket and the clerk, after you swiped your card, asked to see the card to check the signature) but in more and more places in the USA they don't even bother with a signature for small amounts. Go to Walmart, for example, buy something for less than $50 and you are not asked to sign anything. I had a friend stay with me for a couple of weeks who lives in London, the first thing he wanted to do was go to Walmart to buy some blue jeans and first of all was amazed at how low the prices are (I find that hard to believe although I understand that here in America, goods for the most part are priced before taxes but not everything is taxable say like clothes in New Jersey as an example) while in Britain prices include VAT but no matter. He used his UK credit card at Walmart and lo and behold they asked for his pin. We then went to the supermarket, bought about $100 worth of groceries, he insisted on paying. Supermarket still not converted to emv so he swiped the card, gthe clerk rang it up and since it was under $50 so no signature no anything. He turned to me and asked what kind of security is that and I was truthful. I said there was none. That's simply the way it is here like it or not.
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Old Aug 29th, 2015, 12:18 PM
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oops...at the supermarket it was $48 in groceries not $100 where he would have been asked for a signature but not checkecd. My fault.
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Old Aug 29th, 2015, 01:32 PM
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The difference between chip and signature and chip and pin only comes into play if the actual physical card is lost or stolen.


While that is an overall fair assessment, another huge advantage to the way in which credit cards are processed in Europe vs. in the USA is that in Europe, the card never leaves the owner´s hands. There might be a rare exception, I just cannot think of one.

A store employee never really even sees the numbers on your card, he never even touches the card. Cards do not need to be stolen or lost in order to be duplicated or to be used fraudulently on line.

The European procedure of never handing over a card to be processed is another huge safety advantage and protection against fraud not found in the USA.
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