Not a bad start, but it doesn't look as if you are allowing enough time for travel. How are you getting from Brugges to Italy? Travel is going to eat up some days, so it seems tight to me, especially that one night in Venice! That doesn't even give you a full day, so not enough.

Brugges is charming, but I would cut it and add a night to Venice. Consider multi-city ticket. Arrive Amsterdam. Fly from Amsterdam to Venice, train from Venice to Florence, train from Florence to Rome. Depart from Rome.

Do you plan to rent a car at any time? You don't want/can't drive into Florence city center, so you need to plan transportation for day trips. I would choose Siena over San G and use the bus from Florence.

If Brugges is an absolute must, then cut Venice or cut a night from Florence and add it to Venice.

Budget sounds fine to me.

With only 13 nights, I would drop Amsterdam and Bruges. You barely have enough time for your Italy list.

What you drop is up to you, but IMO something has to go. A couple of things to consider:

• One night somewhere only nets you about 1/2 a day free after accounting for travel/checking in. This is especially bad for Venice (if you are from North America) since transatlantic flights leave VERY early in the morning.

• You'll probably be jetlagged the first day or two.

WIth the amount of time you have, I would consider either (1) Belgium and the Netherlands, perhaps adding Paris or (2) Rome, Florence and Venice. You have left no room in your schedule for travel.

Way too many places in way too little time. All of the above are correct - you have to decide on a workable itinerary that allows time to get from one place to another. Remember - 2 nights in a place equal one full day.

As for budget - it's impossible to say without knowing what your expectations are. Are you training or flying from one place to another? Are you looking for a basic, modest hotel or do you want something upscale? Will you have picnic lunches and modest dinners - or are you looking for upscale dining?

Thank you for all your responses!

We will definitely be starting our trip in Amsterdam. With my husbands particular job, he would need to do the cafe's at the beginning of the trip not the end.

Amsterdam, Brugges, and Rome are a must since our collective group has decided this is what we would all like to do. We will be taking a plane from Brugges to Italy to eat up time. All the other routes I believe we plan on using the train. Would it be better to rent a car between any of these destinations?

We most likely will take out Venice.

@sassafrass, why Siena over San Gimignana?
@nytraveler, for our budget we plan on staying in 3-4star hotels that provide breakfast. Lunch and dinner was not included for the above budget. Does it seem correct for travel and hotels?

Coffeshops may not be an option. The new government is reviewing things but there is still a chance that coffeeshops will only be for residents, not for tourists.
If that is the main reason for visiting Amsterdam then you need to keep an eye on developments.
Hopefully more will be know in the coming weeks.

I think you are still not taking into full consideration how much time it will take to travel from place to place: hotel to train station or airport, plane or train time, taxi or train to hotel. It adds up. Besides costs, every day traveling is, in a sense, a day lost that could be spent seeing and experiencing things.

Getting down to realism, it will take the better part of a day to go from Amsterdam to Brugges. You will probably have to go from Brugges to Brussels and fly from there to Rome (or Florence) and train or taxi into your hotel in Rome. That will certainly eat up once again, a good part of, if not most of, a day. Distance from Rome to Florence isn't great, but, again, hotel to train in Rome and taxi from train to hotel in Florence will take time, altogether another half day. If you keep Venice, that at best is a half day, even with a fast train.

Take a good hard look at travel times all around.

Just my preference, but I would cut Brugges in a skinny minute to keep Venice. I actually spent a week in Brugges once, just relaxing, biking, going to the beach, etc., but it is like a pretty little stage set. I have no desire to return. Venice is a treasure, one huge work of art, IMHO. I have been at least six times and would go again tomorrow.

San G. is charming, but Siena has a magnificent piazza and cathedral, and is interesting enough that I have returned. The history is more interesting to me also. Look at some photos.

In the end, it is narrowing the trip down to what most suits you.

In europe there is often a substantial difference in price between 3* and 4* hotels. And the time of year will matter both for possible deals and for amenities (if you go midsummer you will probably want AC - not always available in more modest hotels - or much at all in Amsterdam.

I would think the budget is fine if that is just hotels and travel between cities -as long as you are looking at european stars (hotels in europe are often rated a * higher than they would be in the US).

I think you have plenty of money - but not enough time for what you want to do. As for coffee shops and your husband's job - I would be very hesitant. I'm not an expert - but I do know traces can linger for quite a while. And many people have been caught by random drug testing when they thought they were safe.

Since you aren't allowed to drive in the centers of Rome and Florence and Venice is all canals, I can't see what you would do with a car.

"With my husbands particular job, he would need to do the cafe's at the beginning of the trip not the end. "

That can only mean he is subject drugs testing - can't think of any other reason to post that. If so, he could be SOL. Two weeks wouldn't get it out of his system/hair.

You won't be flying from Bruges to anywhere - you'll have to travel to Brussels and then fly to Italy. That journey will eat up most of a day.

re hotels - We really need to know how much you want to pay person or per couple per night. Star level does not always equate to cost. (Generally in Europe, star level related to amenities, not room rates).

$4500 seems generous -- but that depends on your airfares

I forgot to mention when we will be going. We plan on leaving around Sept. 25th and coming back around Oct. 11th. I will take some time to figure out travel times as I definitely don't want to be on the road for hours on end.

I would prefer to spend no more than $3500 per person. The travel agent I spoke to said the average cost for air/land travel in 2012 was $1700-$2000. That is what I was expecting.

I feel $2500 PP for hotels seems a bit high. That averages $192 for 13 nights PP. If that average was per couple, I think that is reasonable but PP seems a bit outrageous. Can you guys enlighten me?

schampaco01 - it certainly looks like your group is just going to have to change their mind about what they want to do and see.

And did you not know that traveling actually takes time?

This is an enlightening place, isn't it?

I suggest;

Amsterdam 3
Brugge 2
Rome 3
Florence 3
Venice 2

The "better part of a day" advice you received for Amsterdam to Brugge amounts to 3 hours, and if somebody is schoolmarmish enough to respond that 3 hours doesn't take into account traveling to and from the train station to the hotels I might just explode.

So, you can be in Brugge shortly after lunch. If you were to only spend 1 night, you would will have to travel to Brussels to fly on to Rome. That is 1.5 hours by train to BRU. If you plan to arrive at BRU 2 hours before a 2.1 hour flight to Rome (FCO), that means about 6 - 6.5 hours after leaving Brugge you will have your luggage at FCO. Add another hour to get to your hotel and you do have a long day here. It would probably mean leaving Brugge quite early in the morning so having only the 1 night there (an afternoon and evening) is not ideal. That is why I suggest the second night in Brugge.

You then have to give 1 night back from somewhere in Italy and are left with 8 nights there. If Rome is a must for your group then 3 nights is probably the minimum number of nights you should spend there. Florence is only 3 hours by train from both Rome and Venice and I think it would make sense to spend 3 in Florence and add 1 more to Venice.

Any combination of 8 nights between Rome, Florence and Venice would work, of course, but flights out of Venice to N. America usually leave very early in the morning so, again, having only 1 night planned in Venice after arriving from Florence the day before is very tight.

Take the trip you want - all you need is accurate information to make the inevitable give and take decisions.

"The travel agent I spoke to said the average cost for air/land travel in 2012 was $1700-$2000"

What does that mean? From your specific departure point to some specific city in Europe - or - just in general folks spend that much for transport? (FWIW - Except the few times I've flown Business, I've seldom spent anywhere near $2000 for transport)

@Aramis, yes I am aware travel takes time. As I've never traveled to Europe that's why I am on this forum, for information and tips. Although, you come across as condescending, I do appreciate your travel information. It definitely enlightens me to a realistic expectation of travel time.

@JanisJ, the $1700-$2000 includes the flights from California to Europe. As well as any train or flights between countries.

<<@JanisJ, the $1700-$2000 includes the flights from California to Europe. As well as any train or flights between countries.>>

That is utterly meaningless information, unless the travel agent actually knows precisely what inter-city flights and trains you are taking.

I think your thinking about the coffee shops is way off base.

And your "collective group" needs to do some homework and check train schedules and timing between places. You really can't just hop all over Europe like this in such a short timeframe if you actually want to see and experience anything but the interiors of airports and train stations.

The amount is based on the below tentative schedule:

flying from San Francisco
Amsterdam- 3 night
train to Bruges- 1 Night
train to brussells, I believe
fly to Rome
Rome- 4 nights
train to Florence- 4 nights
train to Venice- 1 night
fly home

We most likely will take out Venice to have more time somewhere else.

I think Aramis has suggested an excellent itinerary, considering the amount of places you want to visit in your time frame. You will be able to experience a little bit of each place... just enough to have you hooked and wanting to come back for more.

Concerning the coffeeshops (not cafes) - the Weed Pass is dead, so it should be business as usual.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/10/30/amsterdams-pot-shops-saved-after-new-dutch-government-scraps-weed-pass/

If your husband is concerned about a "hot" pee test, there are kits available to flush the system. Or he could take the route our friend did, after travelling with us to Amsterdam and going home to start a new job. He was upfront with his new boss and told him he was in Amsterdam, in a bar drinking, and didn't realize that some bars allow pot smoking, and he probably inhaled some smoke. It worked for him!

Also, if your husband, or others in your group, have questions about Amsterdam coffeeshops, I can recommend the Amsterdam Coffeeshop Directory, which also has a forum for questions and answers.

http://www.coffeeshop.freeuk.com/

One more thing... is that 4 couples, or 4 people going on your trip?

Robyn

I think that your TA is either blowing smoke (or maybe inhaling ) or you misunderstood. Why would s/he talk about some 'average expenditure by others in 2012' if you have a specific/tentative itinerary like that?

Either s/he knows what things cost and can itemize it, or she's blowing you off.

Hmmm. I guess things really can get lost communicating via text. I was actually trying to address the condescension that the other posters delivered. My first three sentences were facetious and not aimed at you.

It is ridiculous to lecture pople on the fact that it takes time to get from one place to another or to tell someone that their dream trip cant be accomplished without ruining the experience. I hate the 'do what I say or you wont have a good trip' approach of many responders.

If I missed the mark that much I apologize. Try reading the responses before mine again and then mine. I think my final line and the fact that I wasnt lecturing youmake my point.

Why anyone would want to take Venice out of their schedule to "have time somewhere else" is a mystery to me. Skip Bruges, have a Belgian beer in Amsterdam instead of a smoke, buy chocolates in the train station.

BTW, As a Dutch person I've grown to have a dim view of tourists visiting the Amsterdam only because of smokes. The entire area catering to this in Amsterdam is criminal and thrives modern day slavery, so why anyone would find that "fun" is also beyond me. The city is beautiful without smoking yourself silly.

I also endorse Aramis's itinerary. I think Venice is magical and worthy of 2 nights, at least. Enjoy planning!

I would drop Italy all together and spend my two weeks in the Benelux area, with a little Germany or France thrown in to make it interesting. Enjoy your smoke in Amsterdam, I start all my Europe adventures with a smoke in Amsterdam it's the best way to get over jet lag. Italy is worth 2 weeks on it's own imho

To answer a question, Siena is easier to get to from Florence. It's a straight bus ride that leaves you in the historic center of Siena. You can also take the train to Siena, where the station is outside the walls. For San Gimignano, you have to bus or train to Poggibonsi, then change to a bus to SG. San Gimignano is a much smaller place than Siena, with less to see.

>>>It is ridiculous to lecture pople on the fact that it takes time to get from one place to another<<<

I disagree, but I don't consider people giving advice on this thread are lecturing either. People that haven't traveled in Europe before don't have a clue how long getting around by public transport might take them. They aren't used to buying tickets in another language, etc. Getting oriented in each new city does take time, often more than you thought it would (even for experienced travelers). Budget flights are a lot more strict about check-in times which typically means not in line to check-in, but completely checked-in.

schampaco01 - I often see cheaper flights into Brussels than Amsterdam so you might consider starting there. You might also find better flight connections from Amsterdam to Italy.

>>>Rome- 4 nights
train to Florence- 4 nights
train to Venice- 1 night
fly home<<<

This might not be the best order or most efficient. Why have you selected the number of nights in Florence? It would seem you should take a night from Florence and add to Venice. I would also plan to end the trip in Rome as the flight options back to the states won't depart as early as from Venice and there are more non-stop flights to the US.

I agree with kybourbon. that you should fly home from Rome. Getting to the airport at the crack of dawn in Venice is not fun, as the vaporettos are not running often, and water taxis, etc. are pricey. So I would say 2 nights Venice, three in Florence, and four in Rome makes more sense, in that order.

When departing from Rome, hire a limo service such as Romeshuttlelimousine.com. They are reliable, on time, and operate on a fixed price of 40 euros from central Rome. If there are four of you, one will work. If there are eight, you will need two.

Our daughter and her two teenagers went to Bruges and Brussels a couple of weeks ago and though Brussels was nicer. The chocolate and sights are not all that different, but they preferred Brussels.

Going to Amsterdam just to get high seems like a waste of your time and money, not to mention yourself getting wasted. You can do that at home. But if that is your goal, do look carefully at the current laws before you make the commitment to go there.

It's your time and money, have fun with whatever you do, I understand the attraction to go to a coffee shop in Amsterdam

@Aramis, I see what you mean. If your beginning remarks started with italics, I probably wouldn't have misread them. Thanks again for travel time information. This has helped out greatly.

@artstuff, thanks for the positive outlook on the coffee shops and links to the forum.

As a group we would like to start our trip with a little fun. If we can find a place with live music to enjoy, that would be great! We are not going to Amsterdam strictly for coffee shops. It just checks off a couple of my groups 'to do' personal list. Also, I really want to ride a bicycle on the beautiful canals and see the Ann Frank house.

We had planned for 4 nights in Florence to leave time for San Gimignano and Tuscany. The TA had suggested this so I can get to see the medieval towers and Tuscany for a relaxing day in the countryside.


Thank you Charnees for the limo link. It does seem flying out of Rome would make more sense. We will have to look in to it.

BTW, there are 8 adults traveling total.

Just to give you an idea, here is what you are looking at for the Italy portion of your trip (leaving off the "cafe" portion of the itinerary):

Day 1: pack, check out of hotel, have breakfast, get to airport 2 hours before flight, check in, flight, arrive Venice airport mid-morning (if lucky), baggage, vaporetto to Venice, get to hotel, check-in, unpack, have lunch, wander Venice, dinner, sleep
Day 2: Venice
Day 3: pack, check out of hotel, vaporetto to train station, 2 hr train to Florence, get to hotel, check-in, lunch, afternoon in Florence.
Day 4: Florence
Day 5: Tour of San G and Tuscany (in a BIG van if there are 8 of you), sleep in Florence.
Day 6: pack, check out of hotel, get to train station, 1.5 hr train to Rome, get to hotel, check into hotel, unpack, eat lunch, afternoon wandering in Rome, dinner, sleep.
Day 7: Rome (Ancient Rome)
Day 9: Rome (Vatican/St. Peter's)
Day 10: Rome (everything else you missed)
Day 11: fly home

Bring comfortable shoes - that's alot of walking to/from train stations, etc.! Buon Viaggio!!

what ekc said. the more places you cram into a trip, the less time you actually have to do or see things, and the more time you spend at boring places like airports and train stations. And that's if all your arrangements work out.

another snag with moving around a lot is that it costs more than staying still. not just with the extra transport costs, but you have less time to find that nice but reasonably priced cafe, the bar with the decent cheap beer, the deli with the lovely sandwiches, etc. etc.

also IMO the itinerary you have at the moment sells Venice in particular very short, and given this week's flooding, we may not have it for much longer. you are losing two whole days just to spend a night in Bruges. it would be much more efficient to skip Bruges, fly straight from amsterdam to Venice, and continue you trip from there. i would also borrow a night from Florence, and then do this:

Day 1 - fly into amsterdam. stay 3 nights.

day 4 - fly to Venice - stay 3 nights

Day 7 - train to Florence [doesn't take long, you will get there in time for lunch of you get an early train] stay 3 nights.

Day 10 - train to Rome - stay 4 nights.

i would leave day trips to another time, but you can always change your minds once you are there.

OK -I see even bigger problems . . . I thought you meant 2 couples/4 people but now I see it is 4 couples and eight people.

Every additional person adds complications - just the nature of things. Everyone will be on a different 'body clock' especially when talking about jetlag. Some of you may be fine and some of you may suffer quite a lot and for a few days.

Plus organizing a group that size really is like herding cats. Everyone will have to move at the same pace, get to the stations at the same time, etc. Probably ain't going to happen.

I've taken groups from 5 to 13 and TRUST me - the simpler the itinerary the better.

You will be much happier hitting fewer destinations-

yes, what jj said.

if there are 8 of you, your problems and delays will increase exponentially.

I like annhg's itinerary. Could also do AMS to FCO and return via Venice if the flights work out better.

I like annhg's itinerary.>>

mjs - i like it too.

trouble is I'm much better at designing other people's itineraries than I am at doing my own, as like packing, I always try to do too much!

there's a thought - how is an itinerary like a suitcase? - because you always want to pack too much in.

Oh boy, 8 people! I've taken groups of 8. Even if they are a compatible group, that's a challenge. Here are just some of the issues I've encountered (and these were on trips where everyone had at least a rough schedule ahead of time and knew the expectations):

Someone always brings way too much luggage

Someone always likes to sleep in

Someone always takes too much time to get ready in the morning

Someone always walks really slowly

Someone always gets tired easily

Someone is always a picky eater

Someone is always chronically late to meet up with the others

Someone always gets lost

Someone is always overcome by being in another culture, and someone else always assumes that it should be just like home

Someone always loses something

Someone always wants to party more than the others

And so on...

If you're being paid to guide a group around and deal with these issues, you expect it and schedule accordingly and handle it as graciously as possible. If you're just a group touring, these issues can become part of the fabric of the trip, and not in a good way. I hope you've all thought about this and figured out in advance what accommodations you may need to make. Not saying that your group won't be perfectly compatible (I hope it is), but you might want to think about this before you go. Last, I would strongly advise not to tour around in a pack.

>>>Someone always likes to sleep in<<<

Someone always wants to go to bed with the chickens (last person I traveled with wanted to go to bed at 8pm).

Someone always needs to eat dinner at 5pm.

Someone always spends a week sleeping off the hash

I organized a week's stay at a villa in Italy for 8 people. Based on that, here are some rules you need to impose starting now.

1. Everyone arranges their own transportation to and from Europe. Do not try to book all these yourself and be financially responsible for them.

2. if you are all going to stay in hotels, then everyone should make their own arrangements there, too. if you are going to rent apartments/villas, everyone MUST get travel insurance to cover their share of the rental costs. And everyone must commit NOW to paying their share of costs from here on out. You do not want to have to be stuck with costs of someone who bows out later, for whatever reason. (one person in our group who was in excellent health was diagnosed with a lethal brain tumor after the arrangements were made, did not get travel insurance, and was reduced to poverty by the costs of the illness. This made the rest of us have to pay her obligations.) You may find that your group gets smaller once people face making that financial commitment.

3. If you are going to rent vehicles, the same rule about travel insurance applies. DO rent more than one car. Everyone may not always want to go on the same excursions, and should not be stuck if they don't go. Besides, a van that holds eight people and their luggage will be quite large, and harder to maneuver in narrow streets and tight corners.

4. If you are going to share cooking in a group accommodation. set up a "kitty" at the start with a contribution from each person. It's almost impossible to figure out who owes whom how much if everyone buys stuff out of pocket and then needs to be reimbursed. They should be reimbursed from the kitty immediately -- or carry the kitty around so you can buy directly from it.

5. You also need to decide how to pay in restaurants. Just divide the bill 8 ways? Or spend 15 minutes at the end of the meal figuring out how much each person should pay according to their order? (Joe had three drinks and Sue only had one, but Sue ate dessert and Joe did not. Do you just assume it will
even out at the end, or do you itemize each person's payments?)

As you can see, these financial arrangements can get complicated, and can end up with hard feelings if someone feels put upon.

How are you going to handle hotel rooms? Everybody makes their own reservations? One person reserves 4 rooms? Lots of potential problems there. And smaller hotels might not have 4 rooms available for your dates.

"smaller hotels might not have 4 rooms available for your dates. . . ."

And even if they do all the rooms may not be the same size/quality/whatever. Plus you can bet all the bedrooms in a villa or apartment won't be equal, all ensuite. Are people going to pay less if they have a lesser room?

BTW, in spite of the financial complications I mentioned, you can have a fun time with a group. It's just that you all need to go into this having established the same expectations and commitment before you go.

Another benefit of slowing down the itinerary is that it allows people to break off into smaller groups for sightseeing/shopping/museums/etc. more easily. When you are on the move, it makes this harder.