There will be almost no afternoon sun at Murren in October. You will of course see nothing of Seitzerland but Murren and the immediate surroundings.
The shortest train ride from everywhere in Switzerland to Venice goes through Milan.
4 daily train connections Paris - Muerren (6 to 6 1/2 hrs) change at Basle, Interlaken Ost, Lauterbrunnen and Gruetschalp
4 daily train connections Muerren - Venice (7 1/2 hrs) change at Gruetschalp, Lauterbrunnen, Interlaken Ost, Spiez, Milan, for some trains at Brig too.

Thanks again neckervd. We'll be in Murren 24-27 Sept (so not quite October!)... Would Lauterbrunnen be a better base?

Thanks so much for clarifying the trains to Venice, was afraid of that. That means we'll be backtracking by going to Milan/Venice and back again.

What do you think of Switz to Verona 2 nights (would this be about 5 hours?), Verona to Venice 2 nights, Venice to Bergamo 1 night, Bergamo to Milan for flight out?

One night in Verona is plenty and Venice can use more time.

Thanks, nytraveler – good call. It all seems a bit rushed, but unfortunately that's the way the trip has panned out, leaving only 5 days to explore some of northern Italy. It was suggested to me that Venice is a must, particularly for my boys, and this has made things rather awkward, what with all the backtracking. If only we could go direct from Switz to Venice!

Some thoughts for you. Last year I based myself in Padua for a few days and daytripped by train quickly and easily to Venice. I think you can also take a boat from Padua to Venice. I really enjoyed Padua and it was such a peaceful and interesting place to return to from a busy Venice. Venice was interesting. I enjoyed the art more than Venice, but that's me.

I then trained from Padua to Brescia and changed to a regional train to Bergamo. I spent a few days in Bergamo up in the high town at a B&B. Loved it. The best food I had in Italy at the end of 4 weeks in Italy. Mind you, be prepared to carry luggage up two flights of stairs out of the station at Bergamo. Unless they have finished installing that lift. (though my host at the B&B did not seem to place much faith in that!)

I then travelled regional train from Bergamo to Milan and on through to Brig in Switzerland and spent a few weeks in enjoying various areas of Switzerland. Loved Murren by the way.

After returning to Milan from Chur/Tirano, I trained from Milan to Stresa and spent a wonderful day on the Borromean Islands on Lake Maggiore. There are 3 islands to visit. My next wonderful meal on the smallest untouched fisherman's island! A wonderful day. I think you could also visit Lake Como from Bergamo? A couple of ladies from Norway did other day trips by train from Bergamo.

None of this may take your fancy. Perhaps I was looking for a rest from major cities after Rome, Naples, Florence, Venice.
Good luck with your planning and your trip.

Some thoughts for you. Last year I based myself in Padua for a few days and daytripped by train quickly and easily to Venice. I think you can also take a boat from Padua to Venice. I really enjoyed Padua and it was such a peaceful and interesting place to return to from a busy Venice. Venice was interesting. I enjoyed the art more than Venice, but that's me.

I then trained from Padua to Brescia and changed to a regional train to Bergamo. I spent a few days in Bergamo up in the high town at a B&B. Loved it. The best food I had in Italy at the end of 4 weeks in Italy. Mind you, be prepared to carry luggage up two flights of stairs out of the station at Bergamo. Unless they have finished installing that lift. (though my host at the B&B did not seem to place much faith in that!)

I then travelled regional train from Bergamo to Milan and on through to Brig in Switzerland and spent a few weeks in enjoying various areas of Switzerland. Loved Murren by the way.

After returning to Milan from Chur/Tirano, I trained from Milan to Stresa and spent a wonderful day on the Borromean Islands on Lake Maggiore. There are 3 islands to visit. My next wonderful meal on the smallest untouched fisherman's island! A wonderful day. I think you could also visit Lake Como from Bergamo? A couple of ladies from Norway did other day trips by train from Bergamo.

None of this may take your fancy. Perhaps I was looking for a rest from major cities after Rome, Naples, Florence, Venice.
Good luck with your planning and your trip.

Sorry. The above has been repeated because there was a glitch with an error msg from the website which knocked me off the website.

I agree that if you want to do both Venice and Verona you should do 3 nights Venice and 1 Verona. But the suggestion to stay the whole time in Padua and daytrip to both Venice and Verona is also good. Venice is best after the cruise ship day trippers are gone but with Padua just a 20 minute train ride (trains go till late at night) you could arrange to be there early and/or late so enjoy Venice at its least crowded. That way you would only have to do one hotel. Definitely keep Bergamo, even for just a night. I loved that place.

You are actually trying to do quite a lot in three weeks (four countries) but you are sensible in that for the first three you are only having one base. You could probably steal one night from Paris (never enough time there, but five nights is almost as good as six) and give it to Italy. Since you are going to be in the Veneto anyway having the extra day would be worth it to me.

have a look at a map. The direct itinerary from Interlaken to Venice goes through Milan!
There are other itineraries, like Interlaken - Berne - Zurich - Zernez - Glurns - Meran - Bolzano/Bozen - Toblach - Cortina d'Ampezzo - Calalzo - Vittorio Veneto - Venice, but they are much longer (in km) and take three times more time.

I agree with moving: Stresa/Lago Maggiore (2 hrs by train from Interlaken, 1 1/2 hrs from Riederalp/Aletsch Glacier, 4 1/2 hrs from Venice) IS beautiful.

Lauterbrunnen is worse than Murren. For afternoon sun, go to Wengen (or some areas above Grindelwald).

If you want sun from early morning until evening, you mast go to a place like Crans-Montana (but the gondolas there doesn't run any longer in late September) or Riederalp-Bettmeralp (Aletsch Glacier area).

Thank you, 2012moving - that's a great idea! I hadn't even thought of Padua. It sounds perfect as a base, and I really don't want to be moving around TOO much on the last leg of the trip. I will now consider either 3 nights Padua (with day trips) and 2 nights Bergamo (with day trips) or vice versa. Bergamo had taken my fancy during some earlier research. The old town sounds delightful.

Isabel, you've reconfirmed this and I think we'll forgo Verona (even though I thought the colosseum would be a drawcard for the boys, since we're missing out on Rome...)

Yes, I have considered ditching a night in Paris, but have booked an apartment for the six nights and am, well, just unsure! I'd hate to be there and wish we had one more day... I'll think about it!! I do love Paris – only hope the boys do! This is supposed to be a trip for US, not me.

Anyone have any accommodation ideas for Padua? We are on a budget. Our Paris apartment is 840 E for 6 nights, London hotel 119 pounds/night. Clean, cheerful, family friendly is what I'm after.

Thanks again neckervd for all your advice on connections, and plain-speaking opinions! Great stuff.

I would not forgo Verona but you can do it as a day trip if you stay in Padua (could you do it as a day trip from Venice too, it's just longer). It sounds like your sons would enjoy the colosseum. And as much as I loved Bergamo, there wasn't that much to do there whereas if you stay in Padua you'll have more day trips than you can fit it (Venice, Verona and Padua itself being the top three). I did Bergamo as a day trip from Milano and while I really loved it, if this were my first time in the area, and with your sons, I think they will find the towns of the Veneto more interesting.

http://www.pbase.com/annforcier/italy__the_veneto
http://www.pbase.com/annforcier/italy__venezia
http://www.pbase.com/annforcier/bergamo_mantova

Good point, isabel... Now thinking maybe 4 nights Padua, with day trips (Venice, Verona) and finish with 1 night Bergamo before shuttling into Milan for the flight home. Only drawback is missing out on lakes, but we can't have it all! Does Padua have any pretty nature spots in case we need downtime from cities? Or somewhere nearby?

Padua has a botanical garden that is a UNESCO World
heritage Site.

Perfect! Thank you. That's one for me, keen gardener. And Lake Garda looks to be not too far away...

Venice is a it's best in the evening and early morning, when all the day trippers have gone or not yet arrived. You will miss a lot if you stay aat Padova.

Yes, that's a consideration. However, we can always catch an early train, or stay on after sunset. All part of the adventure!

Of course. It's feasible: if you have dinner at Venice, walk then to the train station, take a train to Padova and walk to your hotel, you may still arrive there a few minutes before midnight.

In the other direction, it's still easier: if you don't have breakfast, you may be able to sleep until 6.30am.

Generally I think staying in someplace like Venice is better than day tripping in. But in the case of Padua (Padova in Italian), the trains are so frequent (4-5 per hour, the fastest taking less than a half hour), start so early and run so late that it is really possible to still get a very good experience. The day trippers are really only at their worst between about 10 and 5,and even then, if you walk a few blocks away from the main route between the train station, Rialto and Pz San Marco, you pretty much avoid them. Padova itself is such a wonderful place, hotel prices are much less, and it's faster and easier to do a day trip to Verona, also a very worthwhile city. Ideally you'd have three days in Venice plus three or four more in Padova/Verona but unfortunately lots of people don't have this much time.

Generally I think staying in someplace like Venice is better than day tripping in. But in the case of Padua (Padova in Italian), the trains are so frequent (4-5 per hour, the fastest taking less than a half hour), start so early and run so late that it is really possible to still get a very good experience. The day trippers are really only at their worst between about 10 and 5,and even then, if you walk a few blocks away from the main route between the train station, Rialto and Pz San Marco, you pretty much avoid them. Padova itself is such a wonderful place, hotel prices are much less, and it's faster and easier to do a day trip to Verona, also a very worthwhile city. Ideally you'd have three days in Venice plus three or four more in Padova/Verona but unfortunately lots of people don't have this much time.

Thanks, guys... I think that's a trifle exaggerated, getting home at midnight, etc. if the trains are so frequent! We're early morning risers, so having a couple of hours there before day-trippers is perfectly doable. I think Padua sounds a delightful place to stay and probably overlooked by travellers making a beeline for Venice. Quite happy with the decision, especially since it's also convenient for Verona.

We took the train from Lauterbrunnen to Venice in August 2012. I think it was 6 hours through Brig. Venice is definitely a must see, but the crowds during the prime day hours squeezing through the narrow streets in summer was trying on our patience at times. We stayed in a reasonable (for Venice) suite room at Ca'angeli on the main canal near the Rialto Bridge.

Thanks, javafan - it's great to have an idea of the travel time to Venice. Yes, it is a must see, for sure. Hopefully (maybe not?) the crowds might be slightly reduced in late Sept., and also weather cooler.

In spite of many recommendations we stay IN Venice, I'm sticking to my guns with Padua! I really think the boys may tire of Venice quite quickly, and then at least we have the option of just chilling out in Padua, or hopping along to Verona. It is the tail end of our trip, after all. I can imagine we'll all be beginning to think about home. And after all, Italy is Italy and everywhere is some sort of eye-opening experience!

"I think that's a trifle exaggerated, getting home at midnight".
It's up to you. Italian people usuallly enter restaurants for dinner around 8pm. Count about 1 1/2 hrs for a good meal (until you have paid the bill) and half an hour or so for a gentle walk to the railway station.
There are trains to Padova at 20.40, 21.04, 22.17, 0.08 and 5.07

"I think that's a trifle exaggerated, getting home at midnight".
It's up to you. Italian people usuallly enter restaurants for dinner around 8pm. Count about 1 1/2 hrs for a good meal (until you have paid the bill) and half an hour or so for a gentle walk to the railway station.
There are trains to Padova at 20.40, 21.04, 22.17, 0.08 and 5.07
with arrival at Padova at...... 21.25, 21.52, 23.03 ....

I like Padua! But you really do need to stay in Venice to experience it fully. I can't imagine kids tiring of Venice.

OK, so here's the thing. We'll stay in Padua, day-trip to Venice (early start, early finish, dinner in Padua; or late start, late finish, dinner in Venice). If they fall in love with it and say 'let's go back and stay here instead', we will! That's my thinking at the moment. It is difficult, with so few nights left in the trip. Staying in Venice would seem to preclude Verona, which is what's making it difficult. AAGGH!!

OK, rethink! All you lovely helpful people, tell me what you think of this!

Travel from Grindelwald to Venice, which I believe is about 7.5 hours? Please correct/confirm. If there is more than 1 route, pls let me know.

Stay 2 nights Venice.

Stay 1 night Verona.

Stay 2 nights Bergamo, which could include a day trip to lake. Up early for shuttle into Milan for long flight home (to Australia).

I see you are caving to the 'stay in Venice' people. Seriously, staying IN Venice is wonderful and if you have the time and can afford it you should do it. But I would spend all three nights there and do Verona as a day trip even though it will mean a little extra time on the train. It is only just over one hour from Veniza SL (the station IN Venice) to Verona (most trips are 1 hr 10 minutes). You'd loose more time in switching hotels than you would save in not taking the extra train trip. Actually your sons will probably enjoy multiple train trips.

And if you do this you would have the advantage of being able to leave Venice during its most crowded hours. I would do this: first day spend it in Venice. Day two take the train to Verona - you will probably want to spend the entire day, but if you don't you can always stop in Padua on the way back. Day three go to Padua if you didn't stop there on day two.

Another idea to consider since you seem to really want to try and include a lake visit is Sirmione on Lake Garda. It's another half hour past Verona but I suppose you could do it en route to Bergamo if you don't have too much luggage. I don't recall if there was left luggage at the Desanzano del Garda train station (the station you get off at in order to catch the ferry over to Sirmirone). You could also combine it with your Verona day trip but it would be a very long day. I'm suggesting this because I think your sons might find the castle there more interesting than anything they are going to find at Lake Como.

Actually, now that I write this - here's another suggestion. Go with your two days in Venice (day trip one of them to Padua). Then move to Verona but stay two nights and do a day trip to Sirmione and only have one night in Bergamo. If you got to Bergamo by mid day (easy enough to do from Verona) you'd have enough time to see the old city with only one night.

Here's photos of Sirmione: http://www.pbase.com/annforcier/italy__the_lakes_cinque_terre

You have been SO helpful, isabel. Thank you!! Your mention of a castle was spot-on, because it was one of the things the boys said they'd like to see in Europe and there wasn't one on our itinerary (bad mum!).

So I think we will do as you suggest, but since we'll be arriving in Venice late-ish on day 1 after train from Switzerland, I think we may be better off just staying there without any day tripping, until moving on to Verona for the next 2 nights. And at least on the day we leave (Venice), we won't have to start at the crack of dawn, but can enjoy the morning once again without the crowds. Two days in Verona gives us the chance to see the colosseum and see the castle!

The only thing I'm not really looking forward to is the LONG train trip from Switzerland and the semi-loss of a day, but them's the breaks. It's called 'travelling'!

What do you think? You have been so knowledgeable and helpful!

Castles? You will find some of them every few miles!
The most popular castles (which can be visited) along your itinerary are:
Thun, Wimmis, Spiez, Oberhofen (all around Lake Thun), Brig, Vocogna, Isola Bella, Angera, Somma Lombardo, Castello Sforzesco a Milano.....