Starbucks

I'm with you. Who wants to go to Europe to see the same stuff we have in the US. And, who wants to go to Europe to drink mediocre coffee.

Agreed - I can get expensive, mediocre coffee at any Starbucks at home. No need to travel to Holland for that. I suppose it'll be good for those that need that walk-around-with-cup-in-hand experience.

The expensive, mediocre coffee Starbcks in our little town in G is being closed by Corporate HQ.

Despite the fact that the franchisee and the employees are perfectly happy with their incomes, Starbucks has determined that our local shop is not meeting its goals.

That will give us one more empty store.

>Who wants to go to Europe to see the same stuff we have in the US. And, who wants to go to Europe to drink mediocre coffee.

I wonder about that, too, but according to some posts here and on other forums such people exist.
I wonder even more how come Europeans who are used to European quality coffee take to Starbucks. The average crowd in the Starbucks shops here, however, seems to be 25 and younger. In other words, those who will adopt any fashion just because it is new and from overseas.

I love Starbucks. Maybe you don't like it, but millions of people do.

When I was in Paris the line for a Starbucks on Blvd. St. Germain was out the door. The people standing in line were all young and speaking French.

If you don't like Starbucks, then don't go in. But, I don't see why you want to deprive others of something they appreciate.

Thin

Yes we understand that you like Starbucks, but do you seriously like their coffee ? I mean the brown water, stale over-roasted beans, crema deficient beverage. Maybe the mocha frapaccinos are OK for serving in Amsterdam coffee shops.

I'm no coffee expert, but I can't stand Starbucks. It tastes totally burnt to me. And those 5,000-calorie frappe-thingies are desserts, not coffees. I don't understand the appeal, but obviously it's there, as they are enormously popular. It's a bit of a mystery to me, though, how they would thrive in Europe, which always had superior coffee, and still does. The power of marketing, I guess.

All the chains seem to produce similar tasting coffee - burnt or overly bitter. I don't know if it's the barristas, or if they just buy crap beans. Caffe Nero does a great lemon cheesecake, so I partially forgive them. The others have virtually no redeeming features though.

Hi, I'm Seamus and I am a Starbuck's addict.
Ditto Thin (gotta stick together, haina?) that if you don't like it, don't drink it. There are plenty of people lining up for their products. I never get those confections they assemble, just plain old filter coffee or an Americano if filter is not available. The one thing I dislike at Starbuck's is their new policy of not brewing decaf after noon. A decaf Americano is the next best thing but just not as good as a cup of the filter coffee. It surprises me that there is not more demand for decaf later in the day.
I tried Caffe Nero in London recently and thought it was OK,too.

This is probably more a study in human psychology rather than anything to do with coffee me thinks. "Plenty of people lining up" may indeed by the greater attraction for many.

I just assumed Starbucks and many other chains in the USA bought the worst, cheapest (most burnt) beans they could find .. Maybe that explains all the flavors and add-ons.

I'm not a Starbuck's fan in general, agree about it tasting burned, but I did like the decaf Komodo Dragon that was recently discontinued. And I really dislike the policy of no decaf after noon. That was the only coffee of theirs I liked, and I can't drink regular after noon.
But, I do collect their mugs from cities I visit. Nice memories of all the wonderful trips.

That's right, Seamus. We are just Pennsylvania Coal Mining Trash who like the taste of burnt coffee. ROFL!!!!!!!!!

Thin

<I do not want to see a Starbucks on every street corner like you do in some parts of the UK.>

Please. Get back to us when you have one on each corner of an intersection.

It is too acidy for me...

YEARS ago my sister and I worked at the roasting plant for the Christmas season in Seattle.....
One day I was going by the managers offices and they were in there playing Mr. Potato Head !!!

yes, I hate Starbucks and I only watch PBS! LOL..... it's so funny how hating starbucks seems for some people to be some kind of status ---- just like years ago so many people would stay they didn't watch TV, they only watched PBS.

I drink Starbucks, but then again I don't think that drinking coffee that is so strong it makes you gag is a proof of my having better taste.

I know a couple of people who love Peetes' coffee, I think it's okay, but rarely go in there because of the snob appeal.

Hasn't this been discussed before?

I think they're making some inroads because they're roomy with couches.

Another thing that differentiated them from local cafes was that they gave you drinks to go.

But now some cafes in Rome are offering the latter option as well.

I'm am just hoping that Starbucks don't move into every town in the Netherlands, forcing the lovely small cafés we have to close down. I have no opinion on their coffee.
The two stations they are opening on have lots of places selling coffee, to drink there or to go so it will be purely the novelty and fashion of drinking Starbucks that will keep them alive.
I did have a coffee at the Schiphol one once - because it was empty and I could sit down whilst the others were full with nowhere to sit.

Right on, lyb. Reverse snobbery and all that.

The only reason to use Starbucks in Europe is for the free wifi. Italy, Francem Netherlands Belgium coffee even UK chains is so much better

I love Starbucks but rarely go, too expensive but, I met my account at one of our Starbucks last week and had two Grande Lattes to make up for lost time.

The Starbucks on Blvd. Montparnasse was packed when I was in Paris last time. I was tired, had to pack, so wanted a "kick", so hit Starbucks on the way back to the hotel and it was wall to wall full of people..as Thin said, a young crowd mostly.

"so hit Starbucks on the way back to the hotel and it was wall to wall full of people..as Thin said, a young crowd mostly."
"

same with McDonald's.., the GAP, and some other American imports. If natives or tourist like ... well..


In many European countries ( and Australia)they make a great cup of coffee almost anywhere ( Vienna ,for example).
In Edinburgh, I went to Starbucks every day - it was the only drinkable coffee in town.

Starbuck's? Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded.

LOL, Larry.

There are several Starbucks in Basel and most are busy.
I must say, I'm impressed by the number of middle-aged American tourists at those Starbucks who speak fluent Swiss German.

>>>>
If you don't like Starbucks, then don't go in. But, I don't see why you want to deprive others of something they appreciate.
>>>>>

quite simply...the american europhiles don't like to see american things (or americans) in europe. it grates on them like fingernails on a chalk board. they should go to epcot center if they want to see a 'pure' view of europe. while i'm not a fan of starbucks (but do understand its appeal), most of us here in europe are ok with foreign things.

and stepping back...i have a hard time understanding why a concept that involves stylish, well kept shops in great locations, comfortable chairs, a relaxed atomosphere that invites leisurely visits reading, chatting with friends or working or playing on one's laptop is such an evil thing for america to 'force' on europe!

if starbucks was a european company doing business only in europe and there was no such equivalent in america, american europhiles would be singing its praises from the highest hills. they would rave about how sophisticated and 'european' it is to linger over a cup of free trade coffee while disparaging everything american as so rushed, unsophisticated, and 'drive thru'.

if i'm wrong, just let me know.

and stepping back...i have a hard time understanding why a concept that involves stylish, well kept shops in great locations, comfortable chairs, a relaxed atmosphere that invites leisurely visits reading, chatting with friends or working or playing on one's laptop is such an evil thing for America to 'force' on Europe!

I spent a lot of my late teens hanging around in coffee bars drinking frothy coffee. We called them espresso bars and there are still elderly Britons who get a shock when they meet their first real espresso in Italy. We didn't have laptops of course
For some reason, coffee bars declined after the 60s until the returned as a "novelty" in the 80s.

dont like starbucks
theyre normal shots are too weak for my taste and if you ask for a double shot it is too strong

i dont mind their mochas - at least the chocolate added kills the taste of the coffee
i try to get mochas when im worried that i wont like the coffee

best coffee consistently was in vienna

the worst was in croatia and, amazingly, italy

this time im taking my own

It's pretty funny to me that if you simply state you don't like the taste of something you're accused of reverse snobbery or of being an "American europhile," as if that were some sort of curse. There are plenty of purely European things I don't like the taste of, too - Ladurée macarons would be a good example. What kind of snobbism do you attribute that to?

StCirq - sorry if my brush painted too wide a stroke. Comments like yours about individual taste are not the issue, more the puffery akin to whining about corporate imperialism and cultural hegemony.
BTW, next time someone gifts you with a box of Laduree macarons just let me know and I will be glad to take them off your hands.

"Ladurée macarons would be a good example"
Thanks StCirq

I did not care for them either. The ones I bought one night at Monoprix ( in the bakery) tasted much better!

Seamus, I'll hand them over at Mark's Duck House anytime you want to make good on that offer

The others have virtually no redeeming features though.>

Talk about inane generalisations!!!'

no redeeming features?

what about clean toilets for one thing

WI-FI

Starbucks has cheap good coffee

No redeeming features - get down off your haughty upper crust English horse, chap IMO

Oooh - and another one!

I think the the word is 'stalker'.

Starbucks isn't cheap overseas.

In London, the one near Trafalgar Square charged more for capuccino than a local cafe a couple of blocks away.

If Starbucks can find customers, what difference does it make? Good for them and good for the the people who like them.
I've had a Starbucks card in my wallet for months and never use it. I’m waiting to use it if I get stuck with no decent coffee for miles and am forced to use SB.

Does anyone really drink Starbuck's or do they only pretend that they do? For the life of me I cannot understand why anyone would drink it. Starbucks in Australia are closing most of their shops as we have a coffee culture we have inherited from our Italian immigrants. We drink real coffee, not dishwater.

Am I the only one who notices empty Starbucks cups littering all over the continent of North America? Local coffee is usually cheaper than Starbucks overseas. Could SB popularity have to do partly with the portability? Didn't see many people walking around Paris this month with to-go cups...Nor did I notice them all over store shelves, etc.

The fact that Americans don't want to see a Starbucks on every street corner in Europe is irrelevant. In order for them to be succesful, the locals must like them.

I like Starbucks. You get some pretty awful coffee in cafes in Belgium sometimes. And in most places you sit down, and order your coffee from a waiter. Sometimes you just want a coffee to take away, and Starbucks is fine for that. And at Brussels Airport, Starbucks is a huge improvement on the coffee available from the other outlets there. Judging from the lines at Starbucks, I'm not the only one who thinks so.

i agree tulips. i'm not a fan of starbucks (i just don't go out for coffee that often). however, it is very bizarre that so many people are taking aim at it. i laugh at the europhiles' assertion that 'europe already has superior coffee'. europe is a big place with a lot of bad coffee and bad coffee shops. certainly starbucks is not the worst coffee or worst coffee shops in europe. in fact, far from it. doesn't starbucks serve about 20 blends of coffee and tea as well? it's all complete rubbish and not as good as anything else in europe??? strange. i do understand personal preferences when it comes to coffee and maybe i just have very unsophisticated tastes but to rail against starbucks with such passion just seems odd and unjustified to me.

most people go out for coffee to relax, take a break, work, read, chat with friends, etc. starbucks seems to be a good place for this and even if their coffee is not exactly your taste, they do take care with their coffee (freshness, proper machines kept clean, trained staff, etc, etc).

so the only reason that i can think of for being so passionately against starbucks is that the american europhiles are offended by seeing american things in europe. they come here to experience 'something different' and it grates on them to see american things. they are further disappointed that europeans actually like it!

anyway, starbucks made a mistake by completely saturating the market and the number of stores (at least in the UK) will be scaled back to better fit with demand. nonetheless, starbucks have built their brand within the UK and other european markets, they have a loyal following and they are here to stay for the foreseeable future.

I don't particularly care for Starbucks. I also think it tastes like burnt coffee. Dunkin Donuts has a better and much cheaper cup of java. I think it is the cream they use.
I think the frozen frappaccinos are good at Starbucks. That is what my DDs like.

The fact that they are in Europe is fine with me. I also like to visit the local cafes and drink coffee etc... But we did visit a Starbucks in Vienna this past summer. It was 90 degrees F and we were thristy for a frosty frappaccino!

My DH calls Starbucks, 4bucks. He can't believe people here pay 4bucks plus for a cup of coffee. Oh well. He doesn't drink coffee anyway.

Interesting. Of course, taste is highly personal. Each of us has a different set of flavor sensing taste buds; e.g., one person might have more or fewer sweet sensing or sour sensing or heat sensing buds than another. So one person's "burnt' taste is another's "strong" taste. But Starbuck's coffees have done very well in independent, blind taste tests all around the world.

Some diffence would also be just what we are used to from our family upbringing and general "food and drink" environment.

Part of the aversion to Starbucks or Seattles Best might also be psychologically, personality, or world perception based; i.e., just not liking global corporations, or being unhappy about large corporate chains pushing out locals, or being anti-US business, etc.

But I think it is mostly just that we all have a different ratio of flavor receptors in our mouths.

You mean StarBURNT, right?

yes, those taste buds are different alright, thank God.

Dukey--Others are probably thinking exactly the same about your preferences.

In London's case it seems that before the Seattle Coffee Company came in and opened a coffeeshop on every corner London simply did not have what the Continent had had for ages - a coffeeshop in the Viennese model.

Then Seattle sold its stores to Starbucks i believe.

starbucks and places like Costa filled a total void it seems and by their sheer numbers and often crowded status i'd say Londoners welcome the trend, much like Americans did.

I didn't find the Starbucks coffee in Paris to be the same at all as the coffee I get at the U.S. Starbucks. It was pretty much the same as coffee I drank in other places in Europe. I went there because the neighborhood Paris pastry shop didn't have coffee to go with my breakfast and the Starbucks was right down the street.

Connie~ You hit my point from earlier...the "coffee to go" is a draw... Friends that have lived abroad for years say this is a concept that some older Europeans detest while the younger are embracing it. I don't think anyone would deny that Americans like the idea!!

girlonthego, 4Bucks is right! That's $1,460 per year of money that could be spent on travel.

Well the thing is, Starbucks is the closest thing we have to a coffee culture.

That goes for a lot of Asian countries too, as Starbucks is popular there too.

I think the to-go thing appeals to younger Europeans, as well as the non-smoking environment and the more casual decor like couches and such.

Sorry, but I still have issues with Starbucks for charging firefighters on 9/11 for water to wash out their eyes and consequently will not step into one ever again. Unless fair trade cooperatively grown organic coffee is served then Starbucks is part of the problem.

aranda, there's a wrinkle in your foil cap

Sorry, but I still have issues with Starbucks for charging firefighters on 9/11 for water to wash out their eyes>

aranda - any links to support this - sounds terrible and unbelievable - document and i may start to boycott Starbucks as well

thanks

I do not want to see a Starbucks on every street corner like you do in some parts of the UK.>

Hetismij - do you not want to see a Starbucks on every corner

or do you not want to see a Starbucks-like but Dutch owned koffieshop on every corner.

Is it Starbucks or the idea of a coffee shop like the Starbucks model?

Currently i see very few Starbucks type coffee houses in Holland - do you want to deny the Dutch, esp younger Dutch who go there with their laptops, the chance to have coffee shops like in most countries?

You can see i am not sympathetic with your OP attitude.

Cheers

And you do have a McDonalds and or Burger King practically on every main shopping drag and McDrives in the country, etc. Tons of Big Macs - do you want these to go away too?

If not, what's the difference?

I live in NYC. I remember. That's my documentation of Starbucks charging firefighters for water to wash their eyes.

Seamus: I like your humor, really. But it's true. You don't have to believe it, I'm not trying to convince you. I understand how coldhearted that incident sounds, and how unreal. After complaints and local NYC media reporting it, they stopped charging, but only after charging for water was exposed.

Palenque: local NYC newspapers from the time of 9/11 reported on this. Starbucks charging fire fighters for water was not the headline of the news reports at that time, but it was reported.

There still is the issue of fair trade cooperatively grown coffee.

Since Aranda didn't have anything to back her claim up, I googled the incident and found the following link, as usual, there is more to the story.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/533295/posts

So, Aranda, what do you have to say now?

As for fair trade, what are the policies of Lavazza, Illy, Segafreddo, Tchibo, and every other brand of coffee sold in Europe? The coffee sold at every European cafe?

"Unless fair trade cooperatively grown organic coffee is served then Starbucks is part of the problem."

So-called "fair trade" coffee IS the problem. The European coffee shops around my house (who all boast of selling fairtrade coffee) contribute to exacerbating Third World poverty far more than companies like Wal-Mart or Starbucks.

Coffee is a cyclical commodity, Vietnam (and recent falls in coffee prices are mostly the result of overplanting by Vietnam) plants too many new coffee trees: the world price falls, and other people stop planting.

Modify those price signals by ill thought-out stunts like fairtrade, and all that happens is that growers who've not been adopted by Western do-gooders suffer even more. The world price drops just as much, but growers Oxfam or whoever likes get protected - so the rest get zapped more than they would have been.

"As for fair trade, what are the policies of ...every other brand of coffee sold in Europe"

In Europe, they mostly sell fairtrade. Including - at least in Britain - Starbucks (www.csmonitor.com/2009/0424/p13s04-wmgn.html)

But I suppose a few real facts are a bit beyond Aranda's ability to manage.

"There's more to the water story"
Yes, and most of it makes Starbucks look a lot less public spirited than the Free Republic story implies. www.snopes.com/rumors/starbucks.asp

But as a matter of interest, did Middlewood Ambulance Service provide its services on 11/9 for free? Did all those gallant ambulance workers (and policemen and firemen and TV cameramen and journalists and anchormen and...) get no pay?

Flanneur: You have completely disillusioned me with corporate do gooders - Whole Foods Market has been ballyhooing the Fair Trade Coffee thing as much as anybody

You are telling me their efforts are hurting more coffee farmers than helping?

What a let down.
http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/fairtrade/coffee/

The above do-gooders group however seems to have quite another take on Flanner's take (which no doubt is pro big business - his bias IMO)

Here is the script of Jackie Mason's (in)famous routine on Starbucks. I don't agree with his politics, but he can be fun at times.

"Jackie Mason on Starbucks

This is Jackie Mason's bit on Starbucks--the coffee chain. It is funny if you read it with Jackie's voice.

Starbucks is the best example of a phony status symbol that means nothing, but people will still pay 10x as much for because there are French words all over the place. You want coffee in a coffee shop, that's 60 cents. But at Starbucks, Café Latte: $3.50. Cafe Cremier: $4.50. Cafe Suisse: $9.50. For each French word, another four dollars. Why does a little cream in coffee make it worth $3.50? Go into any coffee shop; they'll give you all the cream you want until you're blue in the face. Forty million people are walking around in coffee shops with jars of cream: "Here's all the cream you want!" And it's still 60 cents. You know why? Because it's called "coffee." If it's Cafe Latte - $4.50. You want cinnamon in your coffee? Ask for cinnamon in a coffee shop; they'll give you all the cinnamon you want. Do they ask you for more money because it's cinnamon? It's the same price for cinnamon in your coffee as for coffee without cinnamon - 60 cents, that's it. But not in Starbucks. Over there, it's Cinnamonnier - $9.50. You want a refill in a regular coffee shop, they'll give you all the refills you want until you drop dead. You can come in when you're 27 and keep drinking coffee until you're 98. And they'll start begging you: "Here, you want more coffee, you want more, you want more?" Do you know that you can't get a refill at Starbucks? A refill is a dollar fifty. Two refills, $4.50. Three refills, $19.50. So, for four cups of coffee - $350. And it's burnt coffee. It's burnt coffee at Starbucks, let's be honest about it. If you get burnt coffee in a coffee shop, you call a cop. You say, "It's the bottom of the pot. I don't drink from the bottom of the pot. But when it's burnt at Starbucks, they say, "Oh, it's a blend. It's a blend. It's a special bean from Argentina....." The bean is in your head. And there're no chairs in those Starbucks. Instead, they have these high stools You ever see these stools? You haven't been on a chair that high since you were two. Seventy-three year old Jews are climbing and climbing to get to the top of the chair. And when they get to the top, they can't even drink the coffee because there's 12 people around one little table, and everybody's saying, "Excuse me, excuse me, excuse me, excuse me....." Then they can't get off the chair. Old Jews are begging Gentiles, "Mister, could you get me off this?" Do you remember what a cafeteria was? In poor neighborhoods all over this country, they went to a cafeteria because there were no waiters and no service. And so poor people could save money on a tip. Cafeterias didn't have regular tables or chairs either. They gave coffee to you in a cardboard cup. So because of that you paid less for the coffee. You got less, so you paid less. It's all the same as Starbucks - no chairs, no service, a cardboard cup for you r coffee - except in Starbucks, the less you get, the more it costs. By the time they give you nothing, it's worth four times as much. Am I exaggerating? Did you ever try to buy a cookie in Starbucks? But a cookie in a regular coffee shop. You can tear down a building with that cookie. And the whole cookie is 60 cents. At Starbucks, you're going to have to hire a detective to find that cookie, and it's $9.50. And you can't put butter on it because they want extra. Do you know that if you buy a bagel, you pay extra for cream cheese in Starbucks? Cream cheese, another 60 cents. A knife to put it on, 32 cents. If it reaches the bagel, 48 cents. That bagel costs you $312. And they don't give you the butter or the cream cheese. They don't give it to you. They tell you where it is. "Oh, you want butter? It's over there. Cream cheese? Over here. Sugar? Sugar is here." Now you become your own waiter. You walk around with a tray. "I'll take the cookie. Where's the butter? The butter's here. Where's the cream cheese? The cream cheese is there." You walked around for an hour and a half selecting items, and then the guy at the cash register has a glass in front of him that says "Tips." You're waiting on tables for an hour, and you owe him money. Then there's a sign that says please clean it up when you're finished. They don't give you a waiter or a busboy. Now you've become the janitor. Now you have to start cleaning up the place. Old Jews are walking around cleaning up Starbucks. "Oh, he's got dirt too? Wait, I'll clean this up." They clean up the place for an hour and a half. If I said to you, "I have a great idea for a business. I'll open a whole new type of a coffee shop. A whole new type. Instead of 60 cents for coffee I'll charge 2.50, $3.50, $4.50, and $5.50. Not only that, I'll have no tables, no chairs, no water, no busboy, and you'll clean it up for 20 minutes after you're finished," Would you say to me, "that's the greatest idea for a business I ever heard! We can open a chain of these all over the world!" No, you would put me right into a sanitarium. Starbucks can only get away with it because they have French titles for everything...."

About the $130 charged for water. You have this kid working behind the counter, someone comes in for water the tab is $130, how does this kid know he's not going to be out $130?

If you're boycotting Starbucks because of this and you like SB, contact them and see if there is an emergancy policy in place so this won't happen again.
The corporation may not have charged the Firefighter $130, the employee did.

My first trip to Europe started at Rome where there was, and still is, a McDonalds at the bottom of the Spanish Steps. This didn't please me, but no-one tried to force me to eat there, nor has anyone ever tried to make me drink Starbucks in Amsterdam or anywhere else.
I make a motion to close debate/discussion on this matter and get back to helping travelers with real questions.

Compared to some of the stuff that happens ON the Spanish Steps, the presence of a McDonalds seems rather tame

Compared to some of the stuff that happens IN Amsterdam, the presence of a Starbucks seems rather tame. :=)

I think MacDonalds are entering into the spirit of 'liberal Europe' - according to the news today, you get free condoms with Happy Meals in Switzerland....

http://news.uk.msn.com/odd-news/article.aspx?cp-documentid=16602181