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[This is a repost but I have added quite a few things. Regards, Walter]
This is the official website with info and booking directions. http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/institutions_connected/uffscavi/documents/rc_ic_uffscavi_doc_gen-information_20040112_en.html OR http://tinyurl.com/2yb63
Just follow the simple instructions for booking and respond to their emails with the info they request.
Request, Book and Show-up, it's very simple if space is available on the tour, so don't let my ramblings below confuse you
.
ST. PETER'S TOMB NECROPOLIS SCAVI TOUR:
These are past posts of mine that I have strung together, so they are just my opinions and experiences.
I'm a history buff and an Atheist so I have no religious bias regarding this site.
But I do honestly believe this is the tomb of the historical Jesus Christ's Disciple Peter.
With a *very good possibilty* that some of the bones found there are actually from St. Peter (I believe they are).
IMO this site is the only actual physical link we have to Jesus Christ, so a very important historical site regardless of one's beliefs.
[For info]
http://www.ucd.ie/classics/classicsinfo/96/Curran96.html http://www.stpetersbasilica.org/Docs/RemainsofPeter.htm [Detailed articles & *Photos*]
www.stpetersbasilica.org/Necropolis/MG/TheTombofStPeter-3.htm www.catholicapologetics.net/apolo_74.htm [Interactive Map & *Tomb Photos*]
www.stpetersbasilica.org/Necropolis/Scavi-map.htm Also completely check-out www.stpetersbasilica.org for all kinds of info and photos of the Basilica, it's a wonderful detailed website.
I want to stress IMO the most important site on this tour is St. Peter's Tomb of course but also the Tomb's 'Graffiti Wall' and a viewable single human bone within the Tomb.
My 1st guide (a priest) to that side of the Tomb (closed on my 1st 2 visits) enthusiastically told us about this site and individuallity pointed it out (Graffiti Wall & Bone) with a laser light to each person.
But on my 2nd tour the guide *just* mentioned the Wall during her overview Tomb speech while we were sitting in the underground chapel. Later we passed by the Wall on our own and it seemed to me that many people on that tour didn't fully understand what they were seeing or that there was a 'bone' in that small plexiglass box.
So the last stop in the underground section of the tour is a small room on the far side of St. Peter's Tomb.
Behind a plexiglass wall you will see this http://www.stpetersbasilica.org/Confessio/Tomb/Wall_G.jpg
That is the 'Graffiti Wall' (in 1975) but today in the lighted hole below the Wall there is a small plexiglass box.
Inside that box you can see one of the bones of an old man found within this Tomb.
And IMO from what I have read this bone is *very likely* from St. Peter.
This tour info is from April' 06 but things always change with this tour so keep that in mind.
Booking was once done by email and mailed check, later you paid at the ticket office but today you book and pay by credit card via email (you can also do this by FAX if you're worried).
This is a *very limited* 1.5hr underground tour beneath the foundations of St. Peter's Basilica.
The tour is of an ancient Roman necropolis/cemetery built alongside an ancient street (Via Cornelia) and of the tomb belonging to St. Peter.
This tour must be booked in advance, you probably wouldn't stand much chance at 1 month out and even possibly 2 months out in peak-season but try anyway.
Also the more dates you give them the better are your chances.
There have been many Fodor's Forum posts about the timeline for booking to final confirmation but there seems to be no firm timeline procedure.
It *seems* that *sometimes* they start sending out confirmations ~90 days before the tour date. So earlier requests might be held until then and then answered?
While others have received their confirmation sometimes only a few weeks or even days before their tour.
I have always booked exactly 90 days out for tours in Feb, March and 1 in late April and have completed the entire process (request to final confirmation) within 2 weeks. But this was off-season, many other posters have had different results (much longer waits [months], last minute confirmations, no responses, etc).
But walk-ups are possible. One Fodor's poster has gone to the Scavi Office early in the morning and asked if they have any cancellations and has twice gotten tours later in the day (It's worth a shot but it's 'hit or miss' and others have also done this).
I would go at 0900, only because *I believe* the 1st English tour is at 0915.
Tell the Swiss Guard you wish to go to the Scavi Office to see about a reservation.
If have your email confirmation reservation just show-up to the left of the front stairs at St. Peter's Basilica where the Swiss Guards are standing in front of an arched-bridge entrance.
[Go to www.stpetersbasilica.org/Pics/SQR/StPetrs-AH.jpg
The photographer is standing in the 'Piazza San Pietro', in the background is 'St. Peter's Basilica', to the right of the Basilica is the 'Sistine Chapel' and to the right of that are the Vatican Museums.
Now look at the leftside of St. Peter's Basilica in the photo. See where it looks like that low building connects to the leftside of the Basilica. That's were you want to go for the St. Peter's Necropolis/Scavi Tour.
And this is what you'll see when you get there. www.stpetersbasilica.org/Pics/SQR/vbkshp-twarbels-01.jpg See the 2 colorfully dressed Swiss Guards beneath the bridge on the rightside of the photo? Close-up photo http://tinyurl.com/ykua3w
10mins before your tour walk-up to the Swiss Guard (the one without the lance with your confirmation email and he will let you enter. Don't worry they speak perfect English and probably Italian, German, French and maybe even Swiss. You will come to the Scavi Office on the right in ~50m
www.stpetersbasilica.org/Pics/EXT/ufficio-scavi-01.jpg ]
I have booked it 5 times since '98, my 1st was cancelled due to structural problems, my next 2 tours the 'Graffiti Wall' was closed (structural problems) but my last 2 it was opened.
My tours have ended in St. Peter's, while others back where I started near the Scavi Office but today you can do either location.
This is on account of Pope Paul's Tomb, our guide said the queue to see the tomb is sometimes ~1hr, so for crowd control they are using the Scavi Tour entrance as an exit.
So after the tour you can also go up St Peter's side-steps with the exiting crowds and either into the Church or over to 'Left Luggage' (if you stored anything) without going thru the Security line (metal detector & bag x-ray).
*But* this could change at anytime.
I have seen even woman's handbags banned one year but they are now allowed (it says so on their website).
My last tour had people with daypacks! and cameras! taking pictures until told to stop (no photos are allowed). I don't know what the Scavi Office was thinking for allowing this and I hope they go back to enforcing the no camera/backpack rule. Backpacks damage the site (narrow areas) and picture takers distract from the guide's narrative and slow the group down.
To the right of St. Peter's front stairs there is a free 'left luggage-coat check' (w.c. also) where you can leave your stuff beforehand.
*BUT* you must pass thru the Security line/queue (bag x-ray & metal detectors) and this line can be very long. But as I stated above as of 2006 you can get back to 'left luggage' to retrieve your belongings after the tour without again passing thru the Security Checkpoint.
But if they go back to the old system you would have to go back thru the Security Checkpoint to get to 'left luggage'. But a poster once stated that if you show your 'left luggage, claim check' to the person guarding the Basilica's Exit points they will let you in? This is to the right of the security *entrances*.
The Scavi ticket office also sells an English guidebook of the excavations for 6.2e, it's called 'Roma Scavi' 'The Vatican Necropolis'.
Also on the pavement outside the ticket office look for a small white marble bordered square, that marks the spot where the oblisk (now in front of St. Peter's) originally stood when it was in the center of the Circus
http://www.stpetersbasilica.org/Pics/EXT/ufficio-scavi-obelisk-loc.jpg http://www.stpetersbasilica.org/Pics/EXT/oldobelisk-loc.jpg
[HISTORY]
Here's my nutshell *opinion* and some guesses of what possibly happened from what I have read.
On July 19, 64AD there is the 'Great Fire of Rome' aka 'Nero's Fire'.
The 'word on the street' is that Emperor Nero started this fire in order to *vastly* expand his palace.
[INFO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Fire_of_Rome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Jesus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero ]
The Roman people (Mob) have always been feared by Emperors, the Senate and the rich. The term 'Bread and Circus' was a means of keeping the Mob happy with free or inexpensive food and entertainment, usually violent.
Now this Mob is burnt out of their homes and living in the open and they are *not* 'happy campers' either (there was even a shanty town built in this Vatican area to house some of them).
And they could quickly turn into a very vengeful Mob if rumors like the "Emperor started it" spread.
But Nero didn't start the Fire and wasn't even in Rome at that time (he was in Greece), nor did he fiddle while Rome burned (wasn't there and the fiddle hadn't been invented yet ).
For Nero to a start a fire in the Circus Maximus to obtain land where the Colosseum now stands would be very foolish.
His new Palace is on the Palatine Hill between these 2 sites and it also burned down.
So Nero in order to get the heat off himself puts the blame on a new Jewish religious sect...Christianity.
[The Romans also had earlier problems with Jews/Christians under Emperor Claudius (41-54AD). It's recorded that Claudius expelled Jews (48-9AD) for fighting among themselves over somone called 'Chrestus' (Christ).]
So a Christian persecution begins shortly after the fire. And sometime probably in the 1st half of Oct '64 (http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=5861)
St. Peter is crucified upside-down in the 'Circus (racetrack) of Caligula and Nero' on the Spina (the long elevated spine in the center (------).
The Roman writer Seneca (living at this time) records in a letter of seeing criminals being crucified upside-down.
So this isn't an oddity and if St. Peter requested this as Biblical history says he did the Authorities or Guards would have no reason not to do it. And probably laughingly would have complied.
This Circus was built by Caligula ~37AD, Nero improved it during his reign (54-68AD).
1st called the 'Circus of Gai (Caligula)', then after Nero's improvement it was the 'Circus Gai et Neronis' (Caligula & Nero). It is also called later in history just the 'Circus of Nero',
You can see this Circus in relation to the present day St. Peter's Basilica below http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Places/Europe/Italy/Lazio/Roma/Rome/Vatican/S.Peter/Lanciani_plan.html or http://tinyurl.com/q7bhe http://www.stpetersbasilica.org/images.htm
Afterwards the Christians somehow retrive St. Peter's body.
The Church claims that with the permission of Imperial Authorites Christians removed the body from the cross.
IMO this makes for a great story or a nice Medieval/Renaissance painting but I find it very hard to believe.
Peter wasn't a Roman citizen, so he had no real Rights.
Plus these Christians are rabidly hated and despised, the authorites accuse them of "hatred towards humankind".
And the masses must have considered them terrorists for the burning of Rome.
Their bodies (other Christians and possibly some criminals were also executed that day) would either be thrown into the Tiber River or dumped into a nearby rubbish pit (certainly this area would have one nearby).
It was also possible to bribe the Guards for a dead body, this wasn't unheard-of and usually done by family members.
The Guards likely took down the body because no foot bones were found in the Tomb.
It's believed Guards/Soldiers at crucifixions simply hacked-off the feet (or wrist & hands) to get a body down quickly. This would also probably make prying the nail out later easier without the body or parts attached?
So it's likely his body was retrived either from a pit or from the bribed Guards.
Now just across the street (Via Cornelia, this is the street you walk on during the tour, also try and picture St. Peter traveling this road as a prisoner to his execution and of all the early Christians {martyrs, saints & unnamed followers} walking on it to visit his tomb) that runs alongside the Circus there is a graveyard.
1st Century AD tombs have been found there, these are just basic meager tombs for the poor.
The large grandiose tombs along Via Cornelia that you see on the tour don't appear until well into the 2nd Century.
It our timeline this area is a snake infested rocky hilly plain prone to flooding and Malaria http://tinyurl.com/y5z25y . But there are sections of rich aristocratic gardens, temples, clay deposits & furnaces, fields, forrests and barren patches.
The Circus was built in the area that once was the 'Gardens of Agrippina the Elder' who was Caligula's mother. And Nero's aunt also had gardens in the area, until she was poisoned
.
The Christians take St Peter's body into this poor desolate cemetery and bury him just a stone's-throw away from where he was crucified.
It was just a simple poorman's grave dug into the earth with brick tiles placed over it in an inverted 'V' like this /\. It's said that the plot was possibly donated by a fellow Christian. Or perhaps? the plot was purchased after his arrest knowing where he would be executed?
With a major Christian persecution going on it seems to me that this might have been a covert operation perhaps done under cover of darkness? And with the burial so close you might also assume that it would have been dangerous for anyone to transport a crucified Jew = dead Christian.
It just seems to me that St. Peter was buried in the closest convenient location?
Or perhaps they wanted to bury him before sunset for religious reasons?
In ~160AD a shrine is built over the grave (you will see a column of this shrine imbedded in a wall on the tour). This shrine is modified and additions added for the next ~150yrs.
~315AD Emperor Constantine builds a new shrine over the older shrine and then builds (~324AD) the 1st St. Peter's Basilica around his shrine.
In 1506 this Basilica is demolished (unsafe) and a new basilica and shrine is built over the older basilica and shrine. This basilica was completed in 1626 and is the one you see today.
So today there is physical evidence that this grave's location was marked since 160AD with elaborately built shrines.
And in the 96yrs from burial (64AD) to the 1st shrine (160AD) this grave was a highly revered site among the Christians and often visited.
So this grave was *never* lost or forgotten by the Christians. (I'm 52 and as a young child I remember my Great Grandfather pointing out the house where he was born in the 1890's. So 96yrs isn't really that long for an oral tradition among a large group of a very popular physical site.)
Nor would they have made it up, if they did I'm sure they would have picked a much better location.
Also Pagan Romans were very superstitious about disturbing the already buried or entombed dead or messing with any God's shrine or temple. And it seems that this grave and the later shrine was never bothered by the authorities.
I think if you look at all the evidence and have no bias either pro or con, it's hard IMO not to believe that this is the Tomb of St. Peter!
One of the 'Con' arguments is; That this is a Pagan tomb because of the small animal bones found within the tomb.
But remember this wasn't a very secure tomb originally, just covered by slabs.
It was dug in the dirt alongside a road with a large Circus/racetrack visited by thousands just meters away.
And centuries of people eating and picnicing in the area, heavy rains running downhill through this area (washouts) and later a small hole in the tomb where people could drop-in coins or anything else.
Plus what was in the original soil when the grave was 1st dug. So it is easy to imagine how other small animal and human bones could get mixed in with St. Peter's.
Even a simple hypothetical thing like some little 3-4yo in 280AD picnicing with the family at the family tomb and later running around and playing with a half-eaten rooster bone.
Then he sees a hole in a tomb and like any kid that age just sticks it in because it's there (think electrical outlets & toddlers) .
Also a Circus where horses are often killed in the violent chariot races. I know in the animal hunts staged in the Colosseum and Circus' that the meat of dead lions, tigers, bears, etc was given to the common Romans thru a lottery.
Meat was a very rare meal to the poorer Romans so I doubt that they would let a dead horse go to waste. Butcher it nearby and pay-off the winners.
Then in the 20th Century scholars and archaeologists are scratching their heads wondering how the hell did these animal bones get into this tomb.
[BACK TO THE FIRE, IMO]
Although the Christians certainly didn't start the Great Fire, it's *possible* that a *few* of them might have helped it spread?
We see this today and all through history of small groups of religious fanatics in all religions who think they are doing God's bidding, especially if they see what they think is a 'Sign from God'.
And these early Christians had a major sign! Because the astrological timing of the fire was just perfect to fulfull an ***ancient prophesy about the destruction of a 'Great Evil City', which is *exactly* what the early Christians considered Rome.
History *does* record that there were various reports of men starting other fires and hindering others in their efforts to stop the fire while it raged.
This Fire burned for 6 days and then reignited and burned for another 3 days.
***There was an ancient Egyptian prophesy that was well known at the time predicting "The fall of a great evil city on the day the 'Dog Star' (Sirius) rises".
Sirius rose on July 19, 64AD which was the day the 'Great Fire' started.
Also the early Christians had no love for Pagan Rome and according to Historian Prof. Gerhard Baudy they were preaching and passing out texts saying "That a
fire would reduce the city (Rome) to ashes" and this was well before the 64AD 'Great Fire'.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
VIA TRIUMPHALIS NECROPOLIS TOUR This is a new completely seperate Necropolis tour of another Roman cemetery that bordered another nearby ancient street called Via Triumphalis.
It's located in a different section Vatican City and it just opened to the public in Oct '06 for limited tours.
At this moment there is no booking info listed on the www.vatican.va website but I'm sure that will change soon.
But you can still book it with this info below, so far a couple of posters on the Fodor's Forum already have.
"The archeological site may be visited on Fridays and Saturdays in groups of no more than 25 persons (cost 5e). Reservation is obligatory and may be done by sending a Fax to Vatican Museums - Office for Special Visits (Fax no. 0669881573 Tel no. 06.69884947) or by writing to visitespeciali.musei@scv.va "
[New stories & photos]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6067020.stm http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article1886635.ece http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/09/ap/tech/mainD8KL9O2O0.shtml video:
http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=2584387 photos: http://news.search.yahoo.com/news/search?p=necropolis&c=news_photos
St. Peter's Necropolis Scavi Tour; Booking Info, Websites, History?
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Wow, great information Walter. Perfect timing for me as I have just started planning my March trip to Rome.
Walter, very nice work. Now we can just send everyone to your post instead of reiterating.
To answer one of your questions: We went in December(2005). We were warned to bring no cameras or bags. I went without a purse that day. I saw no one on my tour with bags; two women had purses (not large). I have no idea where you would have to turn in bags. Of course this policy could have changed again since our trip.
One other small thing to add: Even in December it can be quite warm/humid down there. Dress in layers so you can peel some off if needed.
Thanks Walter! This is most helpful for my Rome trip.
Love how you write.
BkMk
Thanks for this information. I am so excited as I just got my email saying we have a tour for Friday before Christmas. I wrote a couple of months ago.
Thanks! I enjoyed reading your summary and thoughts.
Someone may read this and decide they wish to attend the Scavi tour, but didn't request reservations early enough. I want to suggest that you try to get tickets when you are in Rome.
On two occasions my husband and I went directly to the Scavi office and asked if they had openings on their English language tour. Both times we were given a reservation for later in the day.
I'm not recommending this - better to plan ahead than take your chances.
But if you really want to go and haven't reserved - it's worth checking to see if they have some last minute openings.
I just did the Scavi tour last month-I sent in my email reservation in July, and got back my confirmation before I left in August-so about 5 weeks time. Then I emailed the Scavi office the day before I left, advising them that I had changed my dates, and could they change my reservation to two days after my original date?
After I was in Italy for three weeks, but before I got to Rome, I checked my email, and the Scavi Office had indeed sent me a new reservation per my request.
I do not think it is a good idea to book these tours months in advance-many of the Italian tour/reservation websites will not permit you to book more than two months in advance-and there's too great a chance that by booking 6 months or more in advance that your reservation will somehow disappear along the way.
Better to do it within 2 months of your trip-as far as the Scavi tour, that not only has been no problem, but, as I said, they were able to accomodate my change in reservation within 3 weeks.
The cost of the Scavi tour is 10 Euro, and it exceeded my expectations tenfold-all these years of going to Rome, and I'd never done the tour before last month. Truly fascinating-and one of the best price to value tours anywhere in the world, as well-a definite "must-see" for Rome, in my book.
It is so nice to have all of this information in one place. We went on the Scavi tour last year, and it was truly an amazing experience. It was unbelievably surreal to walk on ancient subterranean paths that existed centuries ago. We had a very good guide, and I read up more on the tour/relevant information when I got back.
In response to SusanEva's post, just last Monday I tried just turning up because I hadn't received my reservations, requested back in May. I even took copies of my request and email receipt with me, but no luck. I got past the Swiss Guard, but at the Scavi Office I was told they were fully booked until the end of November, no cancellations, no spare places any day, any time.
But there is plenty else to see and do in Rome so it's not the end of the world if you don't get on a tour, and it's a very good reason to return to Rome!
bookmarking
Julie makes a good point.
If you really want to be guaranteed a space on the tour, reservations are the way to go.
If you don't have reservations, it doesn't hurt to show up and check if there is space available on the day of your visit to the Vatican. If they have cancelations, there's a decent chance that you will get a tour time - but this is not the preferred way if you have your heart set on taking the tour.
ttt for a couple of posters and a few things to add.
.
. If say the location of his wife's remains were known then ~200yrs later. Could they have just reburied them together after St Peter's remains were sent back to his tomb? His sons?
I was recently watching a 'History Channel' documentary on St. Peter.
They said he traveled to Rome with his family.
The bone remains of 4 persons were found in his tomb.
So if the old man's bones are from St. Peter.
There are also bones from an old woman 70-75yrs and 2 50ish males.
It got me to thinking and I thought I'd just throw this in for a "I wonder if..."
Perhaps those other bones were actually placed there?
And not there just by accident?
Could the old woman's bones be St. Peter's wife?
And the 50ish males possibly his sons?
I'm not saying they were all buried in that small plot but perhaps their bones were later placed there?
I know at that time Jews would place the body inside the family tomb exposed.
And later after it had decomposed the bones would be collected and placed in a stone box in the tomb.
Also St. Peter's bones were very possibly moved in ~258AD and hidden (Catacombs?) because of Emperor Valerian persecutions.
Big IF here
Or 2 50ish martyrs and/or Popes?
Also the documentary said that ~1300 coins were found in the tomb. These coin offering are mentioned in the websites above.
Regarding the upsidedown crucifixion I forgot to mention this.
According to the ancient historian Josephus he said that Roman soldiers would often amuse themselves by crucifying criminals in different positions.
Regards, Walter
How long does it take to get an answer from the Vatican booking office for the Necropolis Tour. I put in a request about a month ago and have not heard from them. Of course, I am requesting a reservation for next May so they may not answer right away.
Good question. Does anyone know?
I just sent in my reservation reguest on Sunday, for my visit during mid-may 2007
I sent in a request on Tuesday Nov 21 and got an automatic reply on Nov 22.
One week later on Nov 28th, I received a confirmation for a 3:30pm tour on March 8th!
V. interesting theories, Walter. I was told that when Peter was told he was about to be crucified, he himself requested to be put into a different position than Jesus Christ.
Quo Vadis?
BC
Bookmarking
Takes 9 days - I received my confirmation today from the Scavi Office for St. Peter's Excavation Tour; sent in my request on 12/3 and received confirmation on 12/12. My tour is on May 18, 2007
Via Triumphalis Necropolis Photos:
'Margaretlb' posted a link www.slowphotos.com/photo/showgallery.php?cat=4009&ppuser=500
to these excellent photos in this topic
www.fodors.com/forums/threadselect.jsp?fid=2&tid=34893625
bookchick; I guess there is no reason not to believe that St. Peter requested to be crucified upside-down because he felt he was not worthy enough to be crucified like Jesus.
And the lack of any foot bones in the tomb would somewhat support that fact.
[Playing the Devil's Advocate]
But if he said that at the actual crucifixion site the only witnesses would be either the Roman soldiers and/or slaves/employees at the Circus.
And passing-on his last words to his hunted fellow Christians would be very odd by those that crucified him.
Who knows if in reality there was any type of public trial where he could have made that request?
He could have been possibly just rounded-up with the others and being non-Roman Citizens, Pagan atheists and terrorists just condemned straight to death?
It also could have been just the 'luck of the draw' so when his turn came it just happened to be an upsidedown one?
Or perhaps it was intentional and done for the crowd? The one upsidedown on the spina is the rabble-rouser leader?
Or just a myth added by the early oral legend tellers of his story?
[But] I recall it was 1st written about ~100yrs later and very far from Rome.
So St. Peter's upsidedown crucifixion was common knowledge among the early Christians and not a later legend.
With the no-foot bones, a later written account and the actual crucifixion witnessed by thousands in the Circus.
I tend to believe the upsidedown crucifixion is true and if true the odds are it was probably requested.
Regards, Walter
Never been to Rome, will be going in May 2007 - so where is the Via Triumphalis Necropolis located exactly. The Scavi necropolis excavation in under St. Peter's. Is Via Triumphalis Necropolis nearby or some very different location?
bookmarking - thanks for the great info!
Author: GrannyPaige (paige.todd@greenville.edu)
Date: 01/11/2007, 10:55 am
I am not sure where I read the information on the Scavi tour of the excavations at the Vatican but here is an update. I requested reservations for 2 persons on 11-29-2006. We will be in Rome in March. Today (1-11-07) I received confirmation for the tour on the requested day and time. I recommend that you book early if it takes that long to get a reservation. FYI.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walter, YOU ROCK! This is perfect timing - planning my trip for May and this sure comes in handy
Thanks!
~Ahissa
Thoroughly enjoyed reading your post!
oaktwo
BK
bookmarking - thanks for the great info!
Alan Howard put up a new page on his website about the Scavi Tour (info, faq, map, etc).
www.stpetersbasilica.org/Necropolis/ScaviTour.htm
This photo shows an aerial view of where to go www.stpetersbasilica.org/Necropolis/MaptoScavi.htm
Regards, Walter
bookmkg.
bookmarking. thx
bookmarking.
So informative.
Can't wait for this tour! Will try to book for our November trip.
Thanks for the info!
Chan
bookmarking
bookmarking
bookmarking
booqmarqd
bm
bookmarking
Thanks for a fascinating post, Walter
Bookmarking. Thanks Walter. The depth of your information was astounding. I only hope I didn't stumble upon this info too late to obtain a tour for my upcoming trip!
WE leave for Rome in just 2 weeks. Does anyone think it will be possible to get a reservation for the scavi tour in such little time? I didn't realize people were booking it so far out in advance.
Take this tour - my husband and I travelled through Italy during our honeymoon in July 2001 and after using all the resources on this site, booked this tour while we were in Rome and, for us, it was one of the highlights of our stay in Rome! Enjoy!
bm
Teri01: We leave in 7 days. We sent in our request in July, as soon as we knew we were going, and received a response 2 weeks ago: no openings, sorry! We are totally bummed, but plan on taking others' advice and just going to their office first thing in the morning, after we arrive in Rome, and ask if there have been any cancellations. good luck to you!
I just got a response back stating that the tours were full and they had no available sessions. Like you, I too will try to get there early one morning and see if there are any cancellations. Hopefully we both luck out! Everyone seems to rave about this tour.
Author: ChanB
Date: 09/26/2007, 11:33 am
Wow...I emailed my first request for SCAVI Tickets on Monday-9/24 and recieved confirmation today - 9/26 for November 19th. Got the date and the time I requested. There are 6 of us and wasn't sure if that would help or hurt our chances?!
I think I will also take the risk and email my cc for payment.
Does anyone have any suggestions for what time we should plan on getting there for a 10:30 am tour. I know we only need to be there 10 minute prior...but should we plan something before?
Thanks everyone for all the great info.
Yeah!
P.S. - I shared this info w/ another post but wanted to put it on this one too because all the info here has been so helpful and inspriring!
"Does anyone have any suggestions for what time we should plan on getting there for a 10:30 am tour. I know we only need to be there 10 minute prior...but should we plan something before?
"
Arrive early and take a tour of St. Peter's. You will not be let into Vatican City for your tour until 10 minutes before it starts.
A couple years ago we took the 10:30 tour. We arrived a little before 8 and joined a very good 45 minute tour of St. Peter's. When the tour finished we had a quick lunch and headed for the Vatican museums. With little to no lines ,we were able to get right in.
A full day at the Vatican.,
I'm kicking this to the top for StLgrrl.
Also for others to post any more recent info.
Now this month (jan) I have read a couple of posts here where a poster booked a tour something like 2-3 weeks out and another booked a tour for I believe Sept.
So disregard my idea about booking 90 days out for the best results. This worked for me a few times, once I emailed my request early Monday and was completely confirmed by Friday, couple of other times ~10days.
Regards, Walter
Hi Walter,
I booked recently for a tour on November 27, 2008 and got my confirmation the next day! I was shocked, having not expected to hear from them until late summer at the earliest. Makes my trip planning easier though
bookmarking.
Awesome post. Bookmarking.
someone posted on Trip Advisor Rome board this morning that the Via Triumphalis request he made got a reply that the Vatican is ONLY doing group bookings for 2008 in lots of 30--he could not get a reservations and was not given any info about how to get INTO a group of 30...
post is on TA Rome forum--might have to scroll down or go to next page to read it
Anyone have any other info on this change--don't think it is on the Vatican scavi page
Anyone have any idea about how to apply if you want to be in a group of 30?
We will be in Rome in Sept and I just sent a request for the Scavi tour. Do you mean that you cannot see the Vatican unless you are on a tour?
The 1st Link in the [For Info] section is dead, this is the new one www.ucd.ie/cai/classics-ireland/1996/Curran96.html
]
That Link is a condensed version but the 2nd Link goes into alot more detail. www.stpetersbasilica.org/Docs/RemainsofPeter.htm
Regards, Walter
[Hi Mike
bookmarking..thanks walter!
just adding - I went on the scavi tour this Sept and it was amazing. the female your guide was so knowledgeable and really got us engaged in the story. we were lucky and were a small group of 8. there was a large emphasis at the last stop of the tour which was the graffiti wall and the bones of St. Peter. everything in the beginning of the tour lead up to that last moment when the bones were revealed. it was a truly memorable and unique experience. I highly recommend it!
bookmarking
Walter, I just wanted to say thanks for posting this wonderful information.
bookmarking
bookmarking
Walter, thanks for bringing this to the top and updating. I also believe the bones belong to Saint Peter. Continuous veneration of the site lends enough proof for me. That, to me, is one of the most fantastic things about Rome - the continuous veneration of early Christian sites. What can I say? Rome is WOW on so many levels.
Just tried to write to the Scavi office to request a tour and it appears that the e-mail address is no longer valid. Does anyone have any new information on a new contact address? Thanks so much!!
ttt to read later.
This is the address that I have; I've not used it yet so can't tell you if it works, but wil be trying within the next few days for a slot in Feb.
scavi@fsp.va
good luck lufty.
Annhig,
That is the one we tried and the one I used in 2007. I am getting a domain error message when trying to send to that address now. Thanks for your help though.
That's still the e-mail listed by the Vatican. Perhaps they are just having trouble with the website/e-mails.
It IS Christmas week. Could be their servers are just overwhelmed.
A condensed version I emailed to someone with working links and some new historical info. Regards, Walter
Hi Zach,
My post (i.e. This post) about the St. Peter's Necropolis Scavi Tour is 5yrs old and some of the Links are dead (mostly the stpetersbasilica.org which have just changed their URL slightly).
But below are the important ones which will get you thru my post on Fodors about the tour.
Read thru the entire post because some other info was added later, use my post just to get a gist of what might have happened back then (skip over the other info like booking & taking the tour, etc). (This post) www.fodors.com/forums/threadselect.jsp?fid=2&tid=34888402
BUT FIRST read this chapter on the discovery which will get your bearings on the site.
www.ucd.ie/cai/classics-ireland/1996/Curran96.html
Now with a general idea of this site you might want go into detailed reading with photos and illustrations. www.saintpetersbasilica.org/Necropolis/Scavi.htm Click-on the Links on the website.
On the WALSH Book Link be sure to click-on (Complete Text Here).
Besides reading or browsing the book itself be sure to also *definitely* check-out the 'List of Photographs' and the 'Illustrations in the Text' sections.
The same goes for the GUARDUCCI Book Link, click-on (Complete Text Here) and check-out her 'IllUSTRATIONS'.
Also the 'Map of the Vatican Necropolis-Scavi' is interactive with info on the necropolis.
And on 'The Scavi Tour' Link near the bottom of the page is a Link to this site
www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0735.html I can't get it with Webtv but it seems 'Chapter/Letter 2' deals with the scavi.
DIAGRAMS www.stpetersbasilica.org/images.htm
TOMB PHOTO; www.stpetersbasilica.org/Confessio/Tomb/Wall_G.jpg (St. Peter's bones in plexiglass box inside in full view)
I'm an Atheist and I believe this is the tomb of St. Peter purely based on the facts with no bias either way.
Of all the historical sites and objects I have seen this was the most moving I have ever experienced.
IMO this is the only existing physical link (with very good proof) to Jesus Christ, who I definitely believe was an historical figure. Regards, Walter
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
[The book quoted below is out of copyright (102yrs) ]
"G. W. Gilmore, in vol. 8 of_The new Schaff-Herzog encyclopedia of religious knowledge_(ed. G. W. Gilmore, New York: Funk and Wagnalls, 1910, 481-2): http://books.google.com/books?id=7DgMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA481
Gilmore deduces that it is probable but not certain that Peter died in Rome. The pertinent portions of the text are transcribed below. Christopher Ingham (a very knowledgable poster responding to my post on sci.archaeology & soc.history.ancient on Google Groups)"
The Closing Years.
Except for the prophecy in John xxi. 18 sqq. and the Petrine epistles (see below), the New Testament gives no information regarding the closing years of Peter.
The sole remaining source is tradition, which, though constantly receiving unhistoric accretions, seems to preserve a kernel of truth in the legend that the apostle went to Rome toward the close of his life and there suffered martyrdom under Nero.
Thus Clement, in his first epistle to the Corinthians, written in 95-97, records: "Peter, through unrighteous envy, endured not one or two, but numerous labors; and, when he had at length suffered martyrdom, departed to the place of glory due to him" (ANF, i. 6).
It is also noteworthy that no source describes the place of Peter's martyrdom as other than Rome, the place evidently implied by Clement, as the context shows.
It would also seem that Papias of Hierapolis knew of Peter's residence at Rome (cf. Eusebius, Hist. eccl., III.; xxxix. 15).
There are, however, a number of direct statements that Peter lived at Rome.
Dionysius of Corinth (about 170) states that Peter and Paul founded the church at Corinth and then taught in Italy, both suffering martyrdom at Rome (Eusebius, Hist. eccl., II., xxv. 8; and like declarations are made by Irensaeus (Haer., iii. 1, of. iii. 3), Tertullian (De praescriptione, xxxvi.; cf. Scorpiace, xv.; Adv. Marcionem, iv. 5), Clement of Alexandria (Eusebius, Hist. eccl., VI., xiv., II., xv.), and the Roman presbyter Caius (Eusebius, Hist. eel., II., xxv. 7).
A similar story is told both by the late second-century Acts of Peter (perhaps Gnostic in origin) and by the almost contemporary Acts of Peter and Paul[....] Confused and False Traditions Concerning Peter.
Of the other patristic traditions concerning Peter's residence at Rome probably the only one which may be regarded as certain is that which makes Mark his companion at Rome, where the second Gospel was written after Peter's death on the basis of his oral communications.
When, however, Jerome declares (De vir. ill., i.) that Peter, after being bishop at Antioch and laboring in Pontus, Galacia, Cappadocia, Asia Minor, and Bithynia, went to Rome in the second year of Claudius to oppose Simon Magus, and was bishop of the church there for twenty-five years, finally being crucified head downward in the last year of Nero's reign and buried on the Vatican, his statements rest on a combination of fugitive allusions.
The Antiochian episcopate is based on Gal. ii. 11 sqq., his activity in Asia Minor on I Pet. i. 1, his crucifixion is perhaps drawn from a literal interpretation of John xxi. 18, while the manner of it (cf. Eusebius, Hist. eccl., III., i.) savors of post-apostolic rather than of apostolic taste, and his burial on the Vatican is deduced from the statement of Caius (see above) that there was a monument on that hill to commemorate the martyrdom of the apostle.
The twenty-five years' episcopate of Peter at Rome is evidently due to the statement of Justin Martyr regarding the labors of Simon Magus at Rome (see above), combined with the tradition of Peter's residence in the same city, especially as it would seem that the Roman Church had actually been formed early in the reign of Claudius through the indirect influence of the Petrine Christianity of Palestine.
All this giving rise to the belief that Peter himself came to Rome early in the reign of Claudius, the combination of it with the tradition of his martyrdom toward the close of Nero's reign evidently gave rise to the legend of his twenty-five years' residence in Rome.
A further element of confusion was added by the increasing parallelism of Peter and Paul, leading not only to the unhistoric tradition of their joint founding of the church at Corinth, but also to their simultaneous labors in Rome; and a similar idea may have given rise to the belief that the death of Peter, almost coincident with that of Paul, took place in 64, the year of the general persecution of the Christians instigated by the burning of Rome.
Still later the death of both apostles was put on the same day, June 29, although the persecution actually took place in July or August.
Moreover, Eusebius (Hist. eccl., III, ii., xxi.), like Irenaeus, the Apostolic Constitutions, and Rufinus, seems to have regarded Linus, not Peter, as the first bishop of Rome; . and it was not until the middle of the third century that Peter was definitely claimed as bishop of Rome (Cyprian, Epist., lv. 8, lie. 14).
The reckoning of the twenty-five years in Rome varies irreconcilably in different sources, and the whole is rendered impossible by the data of the New Testament, which shows that he was living in Jerusalem at the time of the council of the apostles in 53 (Acts xv.), whence he later visited Antioch (Gal. ii. 11 sqq.), while Paul's failure to mention him either in his epistle to the Romans (written in 59) or in his letters from Rome (in the seventh decade of the first century) would imply that Peter was not in the city even then.
It seems most probable, on the whole, that Peter died a martyr's death in Rome toward the close of Nero's reign, some time after the cessation of the general persecution. Absolute certainty is, however, unattainable.
Walter - Where have you been???
@Holly-Buon viaggio!
Sarge - we'll toast a dessert to you at La Zucca!
I' m afraid I am confused. I cannot find a good link here to the scavi tours. I just end up on the Vatican home page and when I search for scavi tours English I get something In German!
Can you re-post the link that takes me to the tour site? I would really appreciate it.
Hi Holly, long story but thanks
.
charnees
www.vatican.va/roman_curia/institutions_connected/uffscavi/documents/rc_ic_uffscavi_doc_gen-information_20090216_en.html Regards, Walter
I've been meaning to correct what I wrote in my original post for a few years
.
"But Nero didn't start the Fire and wasn't even in Rome at that time (he was in Greece),"
I was thinking of Actium, Greece where Octavius, Marc Antony and Cleopatra had their famous sea battle.
Nero was actually in Antium (modern day Anzio) 35mi south of Rome.
The websites (3 parts) below are *excellent* with alot of photos, diagrams, info and videos of Scavi Tour information.
A couple of things are wrong and a few I disagree with but they are just minor points.
www.culturaltravelguide.com/saint-peters-basilica-vatican-necropolis
www.culturaltravelguide.com/roman-mausoleums-saint-peters-basilica
www.culturaltravelguide.com/real-tomb-saint-peter-under-saint-peters-basilica
Regards, Walter