Speeding fines
Sep 5th, 2015, 06:07 AM
#1
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Speeding fines
Hello everyone,
Here is my story.
I was flashed for speeding at Schaffhausen in Switzerland and after 6 weeks i have received a notification from the rental agency Buchbinder, Germany via mail that i have to pay a processing fee of 30 euros, since they dont have my correct address. I think the processing fee is normal, and they charge it for providing my details to the police in Switzerland. However, i haven't received any letter of fine from the police. I dont think they have my right address (because it was my previous city's address on my Ausweis). At the time i was flashed, i was driving 5 to 10 kmph more than the limit, inside the city. Now my question is whether to skip the fee and fine or to pay it.?
P.S: Buchbinder have only my ATM card details and so its not possible for them to charge my ATM card and they neither have my correct address.
Thank you very much for the suggestions in advance..!
Here is my story.
I was flashed for speeding at Schaffhausen in Switzerland and after 6 weeks i have received a notification from the rental agency Buchbinder, Germany via mail that i have to pay a processing fee of 30 euros, since they dont have my correct address. I think the processing fee is normal, and they charge it for providing my details to the police in Switzerland. However, i haven't received any letter of fine from the police. I dont think they have my right address (because it was my previous city's address on my Ausweis). At the time i was flashed, i was driving 5 to 10 kmph more than the limit, inside the city. Now my question is whether to skip the fee and fine or to pay it.?
P.S: Buchbinder have only my ATM card details and so its not possible for them to charge my ATM card and they neither have my correct address.
Thank you very much for the suggestions in advance..!
Sep 5th, 2015, 06:47 AM
#3
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I had a ticket and a fine from my rental car in Germany. It was a major hassle, but I paid it. If I get a fine I pay it, basically because I'm not a scofflaw.
However, a second reason is that I will undoubtedly drive in Germany again, and it's always possible they will catch me.
However, a second reason is that I will undoubtedly drive in Germany again, and it's always possible they will catch me.
Sep 5th, 2015, 07:15 AM
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Are you likely to return to Switzerland?
Can they track you down from your old address?
How did you manage to rent a car without a credit card?
How is you conscience?
Only you know the answer to those, and only you can decide what to do.
Personally if I break the law I pay the price.
Can they track you down from your old address?
How did you manage to rent a car without a credit card?
How is you conscience?
Only you know the answer to those, and only you can decide what to do.
Personally if I break the law I pay the price.
Sep 5th, 2015, 09:13 AM
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This whole process is f-ed up. Why doesn't the car rental company just pay the fine and then charge it to you? We received notification of a speeding fine in France last year, paid the extraordinary $45 "administration fee" to Budget for providing our address to the police-- but then never received any fine. We don't know the jurisdiction where the fine occurred so can't pay it.
My conscience is fine because speed cameras are immoral, anyway. They are unconstitutional (a violation of civil rights) where I live. They are only legal in 12 US states. The only speed cameras in the US on located on a freeway are in Iowa, and have their own facebook hate page https://www.facebook.com/pages/Cedar...07255602655856
My conscience is fine because speed cameras are immoral, anyway. They are unconstitutional (a violation of civil rights) where I live. They are only legal in 12 US states. The only speed cameras in the US on located on a freeway are in Iowa, and have their own facebook hate page https://www.facebook.com/pages/Cedar...07255602655856
Sep 5th, 2015, 10:39 AM
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How are speed cameras immoral?
I've said it before I would trust a fine from a speed camera over one imposed by a cop any day of the week.
Your word against a calibrated camera or against some cop? Which is more accurate and more honest?
I've said it before I would trust a fine from a speed camera over one imposed by a cop any day of the week.
Your word against a calibrated camera or against some cop? Which is more accurate and more honest?
Sep 5th, 2015, 10:58 AM
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This is funny, people saying speed cameras are "immoral" and they are somehow more immoral on freeways. People like that are just irresponsible and want to speed and not get caught when they break the law. It's just a machine doing a person's job, a lot more efficiently and cheaply. Used to be in certain areas, some cop would have to sit by the side of the road with such a camera on the side of his car. Why would it be immoral for a machine to record someone breaking a law. I bet someone wouldn't think it "immoral" for a camera to record a thief in a bank. What's the difference.
I've gotten a couple camera tickets in the US, I was guilty, I paid them. I didn't think it was "immoral", it's just a lot more efficient as jurisdictions couldn't afford the manpower to catch that many speeders before. I just sort of kicked myself as I wasn't paying attention, they are marked where I live, there are signs beside the road telling you that you are entering an area where they exist.
There are speed cameras in Maryland on a "freeway", at least they say they are there. Maybe they just put up the signs. I've seen them on I95 when they have work zones.
Although I do agree it would be a lot more efficient for the car rental company to pay the fine and then ding the renter. But if they don't have any problem for rental cars that are caught that way, I guess they have no incentive to set up such a system. But it is the car's owner to is responsible, usually, as it's the license plate. So not sure why that isn't true for a rental car.
I've gotten a couple camera tickets in the US, I was guilty, I paid them. I didn't think it was "immoral", it's just a lot more efficient as jurisdictions couldn't afford the manpower to catch that many speeders before. I just sort of kicked myself as I wasn't paying attention, they are marked where I live, there are signs beside the road telling you that you are entering an area where they exist.
There are speed cameras in Maryland on a "freeway", at least they say they are there. Maybe they just put up the signs. I've seen them on I95 when they have work zones.
Although I do agree it would be a lot more efficient for the car rental company to pay the fine and then ding the renter. But if they don't have any problem for rental cars that are caught that way, I guess they have no incentive to set up such a system. But it is the car's owner to is responsible, usually, as it's the license plate. So not sure why that isn't true for a rental car.
Sep 5th, 2015, 11:03 AM
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2 immoralities:
The first is equal application of the law: Does the jurisdiction apply the law equally to all drivers? I don't see how this can ever be true, does the jurisdiction have access to all plate numbers? In the Iowa case, let's say the city of Cedar Rapids buys the ownership information for the plate numbers of Iowa and the surrounding states and that's it. That means this method of enforcement is only being applied to drivers of those states, and drivers from other states (or countries), drivers with government plates, and in some instances drivers from states without a front facing plate requirement when the speed camera is aimed at that part of the car-- for none of those drivers does the method of enforcement apply, and that's a Constitutional issue. It would be like having a law that says drivers of certain ethnic origins only cannot use a cell phone and drive.
The second immorality: Let's say you had a nice set of German kitchen knives, and while you were on vacation they were stolen and used in a murder. So because you owned the knife, the police come and get you and take you off to jail for 20 years, no arrest, no trial, just guilty and a penalty. A speed camera fine is exactly the same scenario: guilt and penalty by ownership alone whether or not you had any involvement in the crime. The only difference is the degree of the penalty, the legal process is the same.
The first is equal application of the law: Does the jurisdiction apply the law equally to all drivers? I don't see how this can ever be true, does the jurisdiction have access to all plate numbers? In the Iowa case, let's say the city of Cedar Rapids buys the ownership information for the plate numbers of Iowa and the surrounding states and that's it. That means this method of enforcement is only being applied to drivers of those states, and drivers from other states (or countries), drivers with government plates, and in some instances drivers from states without a front facing plate requirement when the speed camera is aimed at that part of the car-- for none of those drivers does the method of enforcement apply, and that's a Constitutional issue. It would be like having a law that says drivers of certain ethnic origins only cannot use a cell phone and drive.
The second immorality: Let's say you had a nice set of German kitchen knives, and while you were on vacation they were stolen and used in a murder. So because you owned the knife, the police come and get you and take you off to jail for 20 years, no arrest, no trial, just guilty and a penalty. A speed camera fine is exactly the same scenario: guilt and penalty by ownership alone whether or not you had any involvement in the crime. The only difference is the degree of the penalty, the legal process is the same.
Sep 5th, 2015, 11:10 AM
#12
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As to the actual question: are you able to pay it? Without some kind of violation number, how would you approach that?
If the car rental company has your address and can reach you, then it was provided to the police and they can reach you. These things might take several months to finally get to you. But my experience and others on this board, is that sometimes foreign addresses are not pursued.
If the car rental company has your address and can reach you, then it was provided to the police and they can reach you. These things might take several months to finally get to you. But my experience and others on this board, is that sometimes foreign addresses are not pursued.
Sep 5th, 2015, 12:28 PM
#13
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well clearly your second example deosn't pply since rental car compny aren't driving the vehicle that accrues a fine, so they are within their rights to inform the authorities of who is driving.
In countries where there is a points system on the licence the holder of the vehicle must provide details of who was driving at the time of the offence, or face a fine and points themselves.
We have received fines when our sons have driven our cars. Our sons pay the fines.
In Europe authorities have access to most, but not all registration data bases. They can, and do use private companies to pursue fines in some cases.
If I get a fine in France I must pay it, just as I would if I got one here in the Netherlands.
Don't speed and you won't have a problem with the cameras. Now police officers looking for their quota of bookings may decide to do you anyway. Now that is immoral, but it happens.
In countries where there is a points system on the licence the holder of the vehicle must provide details of who was driving at the time of the offence, or face a fine and points themselves.
We have received fines when our sons have driven our cars. Our sons pay the fines.
In Europe authorities have access to most, but not all registration data bases. They can, and do use private companies to pursue fines in some cases.
If I get a fine in France I must pay it, just as I would if I got one here in the Netherlands.
Don't speed and you won't have a problem with the cameras. Now police officers looking for their quota of bookings may decide to do you anyway. Now that is immoral, but it happens.
Sep 5th, 2015, 01:01 PM
#14
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Tom
I don't care one bit about Iowa and their absolute hopeless system.
I don't care if US car have no immatriculation on front.
I don't care if it is anticonstitutional in US.
The OP got fined in CH.
Our laws apply in Europe. We don't carry guns, you do.
We have cameras that give fine, you don't.
The system with us is that the owner of the car has to prove he/she wasn't driving.
That's a reversal of proof, but it is so : as far as cars are concerned, if a car is going too fast, the owner is considered guilty unless he can prove who was driving the car.
Since nobdoy leaves the keys on the ignition, we, in Europe, know who drives our car.
You don't like it, it is your right.
You want to apply US rules in Europe : it is not your right. It is anticonstitutional in Europe to apply a foreign law.
Sorry about that. Welcome in Europe.
Come to us, abide by our laws. You don't want to follow our rules : you stay in your country.
Easy.
I don't care one bit about Iowa and their absolute hopeless system.
I don't care if US car have no immatriculation on front.
I don't care if it is anticonstitutional in US.
The OP got fined in CH.
Our laws apply in Europe. We don't carry guns, you do.
We have cameras that give fine, you don't.
The system with us is that the owner of the car has to prove he/she wasn't driving.
That's a reversal of proof, but it is so : as far as cars are concerned, if a car is going too fast, the owner is considered guilty unless he can prove who was driving the car.
Since nobdoy leaves the keys on the ignition, we, in Europe, know who drives our car.
You don't like it, it is your right.
You want to apply US rules in Europe : it is not your right. It is anticonstitutional in Europe to apply a foreign law.
Sorry about that. Welcome in Europe.
Come to us, abide by our laws. You don't want to follow our rules : you stay in your country.
Easy.
Sep 5th, 2015, 04:15 PM
#16
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Acceptance of speed and red light cameras is clearly a cultural difference.
There's a whole webpage compiling US court decisions on these things
http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/rela...=1&K=0&V=0&X=3
I agree with this judge's ruling in Missouri:
"...this case imposes strict liability on the owner of a vehicle rather than the driver, it conflicts with the state's law to the extent that it permits the prosecution and penalization of persons who were not actually driving the vehicle"
And the Iowa facebook page does seem to be wrong, there are cameras on I-95 in MD.
I see that a Dutch company manufactures these things.
There's a whole webpage compiling US court decisions on these things
http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/rela...=1&K=0&V=0&X=3
I agree with this judge's ruling in Missouri:
"...this case imposes strict liability on the owner of a vehicle rather than the driver, it conflicts with the state's law to the extent that it permits the prosecution and penalization of persons who were not actually driving the vehicle"
And the Iowa facebook page does seem to be wrong, there are cameras on I-95 in MD.
I see that a Dutch company manufactures these things.
Sep 5th, 2015, 04:19 PM
#17
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tom -
I'm afraid you are very confused about speed cameras. Also about the US Constitution and the sovereignty of other nations.
First cameras are not "immoral". How can catching law breakers be immoral?
And the US Constitution has nothing to do with "morality".
Second, there are speed cameras all over the place in the US. Try speeding (hah - too much traffic) or jumping or running a light in NYC. Then you'll see how many cameras there are.
Separately, what does the US constitution have to do with French laws? If you don't want to follow the local laws they you should stay home.
I'm afraid you are very confused about speed cameras. Also about the US Constitution and the sovereignty of other nations.
First cameras are not "immoral". How can catching law breakers be immoral?
And the US Constitution has nothing to do with "morality".
Second, there are speed cameras all over the place in the US. Try speeding (hah - too much traffic) or jumping or running a light in NYC. Then you'll see how many cameras there are.
Separately, what does the US constitution have to do with French laws? If you don't want to follow the local laws they you should stay home.
Sep 5th, 2015, 04:56 PM
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Here's a link from Ohio,
http://mic.com/articles/29661/speed-...itutional-sham
"Traffic cameras such as these presume guilt, and do not provide motorists with the opportunity of a fair hearing because a machine is unable to make a determination on why a traffic law was potentially violated. A police officer who has witnessed a traffic violation can, but a camera cannot."
If there was data to support these making roads safer I might reconsider. How about this case in Virginia Beach?
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/47/4781.asp
It's not about enforcing laws or making roads safer, it's about revenue.
http://mic.com/articles/29661/speed-...itutional-sham
"Traffic cameras such as these presume guilt, and do not provide motorists with the opportunity of a fair hearing because a machine is unable to make a determination on why a traffic law was potentially violated. A police officer who has witnessed a traffic violation can, but a camera cannot."
If there was data to support these making roads safer I might reconsider. How about this case in Virginia Beach?
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/47/4781.asp
It's not about enforcing laws or making roads safer, it's about revenue.
Sep 6th, 2015, 01:38 AM
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Tom
Too complicated to underrstand that Iowa is NOT in Switzerland ?
We organized ourselves in a way that works. Like it or not.
Jeez, I can understand that you're probably one of these US guys who finds everything is so much better in US and everywhere else they are backwards but don't make it so obvious on (international) forums !
Too complicated to underrstand that Iowa is NOT in Switzerland ?
We organized ourselves in a way that works. Like it or not.
Jeez, I can understand that you're probably one of these US guys who finds everything is so much better in US and everywhere else they are backwards but don't make it so obvious on (international) forums !
