Should I feel guilty about visiting Germany?

You do not need to feel guilty about visiting Germany. On the one hand, it's been 50 years, and I know plenty of German people who think, "Enough already!" Especially the young people. But on the other hand, while you're visiting Germany... go see Dachau if you're in Bavaria again, or one of the other camps. As I understand it, the most important thing to the Jewish people is that the death camps are never forgotten. I think that when tourists visit these places, they are making sure that doesn't happen.

I agree with Leslie. I believe that everyone has an obligation to visit one of the concentration camps at least once. I also do not believe that visiting Germany is immoral or sinful. I lived in Krakow, Poland for 2 years, and Auschwitz was only 30 miles away form my home. The beautiful building I lived in in the old city was still riddled with bullet marks. Some kind of brutal massacre must have taken place in the very place where I slept given the state of the exterior walls. Auschwitz, on the 4 times that I visited it, was incredibly painful. But that does not diminish the joy of experiencing other cultures. There are many places in the world where horror ruled for a time, including right here in the U.S. But that generally does not stop people from traveling to those spots. Germans today are basically leaders in social tolerance, environmental activism, economic development for the former countries of the Soviet Bloc. You should have no guilt associated with travel there.

I agree with the above post , we should never forget but it's 50 years later and a different world. Go enjoy & learn from your trip and if you want to feel guilty let it be because you're not taking me along . Enjoy !!!!

No.

There is nothing unique about Germany or its people. If we assume/pretend that anti-semitism (or racism, or national chauvinism, or ...) is a German issue, we have, in my opinion, failed to learn the critical lesson posed by history.

Maira, I understand your situation and concern, and I'm note sure anyone can offer advice. It's a very personal decision. (but, we can try). To comment on some replies - this isn't, unfortunately, a different world than it was only 50 years ago. Sadly enough, what happened during WWII (or, better said, at Nazi hands in various parts of Europe), is happening in other parts of the world too - directed at other groups and run by other leaders - but trying to accomplish the same deed. "Never forget" must also mean "never fail to recognize." I think you hit the nail on the head, Jay. Finally, with regard to taking a trip to a place whose history is marred in this way, travelling to an infamous place is not synonymous with condoning its history. You might do well to share the concerns you posted with some of your closer Jewish friends whom you're trying not to offend, and then see how you feel. In addition to being fun, travel can serve to educate, as noted several times above.

I understand your feelings. But would you refuse to visit Atlanta, Georgia because people in the South
at one time owned slaves? If you visit a slaughter
camp like Dachau, be prepared to feel very, very
sick - physically and spiritually. The experience to me was overwhelming -- one I was not emotionally
prepared for. I had to leave shortly into the
visit.

From what I understand, both in classes and while touring Europe, the Nazi party and many of its symbols are now illegal in Germany. Any guilt felt should be on the part of the creators and executors of such a catastrophy, not felt by a visitor so many years later. You condone nothing by taking a trip there, you broaden your mind and scope of understanding. Please, also visit something other than a death camp, Germany is filled with both pre and post WWII beautiful sights.

I will like to thank all of the above (and anyone who might want to contribute to this discussion in the future) for taking the time in sharing their valuable perspective on the posed subject. Not only reading and understanding different takes on this issue broadens the perspective, but it has made me realize that sharing this experience with my Jewish friends can be benefitial to both. Thanks again!!

Thanks, Helena, you expressed it much better than I.

I just want to add 3 quick comments: 1) I'm very pleased to see this discusion, 2) guilt is a cheap substitute for awareness and sensitivity, and 3) my wife and I will be landing in Munich on July 1st to begin a great vacation.

Unfortunately, there is almost no place in the world that has not been guilty of gross human rights violations, including our own beloved United States. So it would be difficult to travel, or even stay home for that matter if you are basing your travel plans on that. I believe it is better to see the world and learn. If more people were better travelled and accepting of other cultures and those with different values and beliefs the world would be a better place.

I was stationed in Germany in 1970-71 during the time we were destroying Viet Nam. My wife and I learned to enjoy the German culture and its people. This is from someone who never knew his Mother's brother because he was killed by the Germans in WWII. Do not hold the war against the German people. I discovered when I received my draft notice in 1969 because of our mistake in Viet Nam that the common man has very little power to respond when his government tells him where to go or who to kill. My wife and I still return to Germany frequently and the people are still very nice. The more different cultures get to know each other, the less chance there is of a WWII repeat. Go, enjoy, be guilt free.

I am a Jewish man who had many relatives who died in WW II at the hands of the Lithuianian Nazi's who ran the camps set up by the German/Austrian Nazi's. I too used to feel I should not visit Germany and did not go there on my first long visit to Europe. Since then I worked at a place where I met many young Germans and they were nice and friendly to me always. They invited me to see them when they went back home. I read more about the war and saw how Hitler was an Austrian as were many of the biggest Nazis. I read abou how many hundreds of thousands if not millions of French, Dutch, Latvians, Lithuianians, Belguims, Norwegians etc volunteered to be in the SS. I found that the guilt for what happen to my people went far beyond just the Germans. Far beyond.
And so 6 years ago I did visit Germany as part of a long trip to Europe. And I enjoyed it. The people were friendly, helpful, curious and thoughtful to me everywhere I went.
Often they asked how I spoke fluent German and when I told them about my parents and relatives they were kind and sympathetic and they REALLY listened. This was an important trip to me that I will never forget. I say "go to Germany and have no guilt about it"

I am Jewish and have been to Germany several times. I too get the remarks that I should not travel there. I also get lots of remarks from people who say I should see the U.S. first before going abroad. I reply that the best way to see your property is from your neighbors house. You gain a different perspective from the same old view you get every day. Going to Germany helped me see the German people from a different perspective, some good some bad, but at least it was my personal perspective. Visiting Dachau changed me permanently and although very unsettling made me feel closer to the people who suffered from this tremendous tragedy. In short, a trip to Germany has many facets, all worthwhile. It would be a shame to miss it.

We should also be aware that the Germans have not hidden their history--Dachau, Sachsenhausen, and others still stand for visitors to see. While in the U.S., we tried to erase our internment of over 100,000 U.S. citizens--who were denied their Constitutional rights and locked up--simply because they were of Japanese descent. At Manzanar, in CA, there is a little sign, nothing more. We have no musuems depicting our genocide of native Americans...I can go on but you get the idea--if you feel guilty about going to Germany, then you may as well relocate from the U.S.

We should also be aware that the Germans have not hidden their history--Dachau, Sachsenhausen, and others still stand for visitors to see. While in the U.S., we tried to erase our internment of over 100,000 U.S. citizens--who were denied their Constitutional rights and locked up--simply because they were of Japanese descent. At Manzanar, in CA,the site of one of the largest relocation camps of Japanese Americans, there is a little sign, nothing more. The place was demolished almost as soon as the war ended. We also have no musuems depicting our genocide of native Americans...I can go on but you get the idea--if you feel guilty about going to Germany, then you may as well relocate from the U.S. And make sure not to visit about half of the other nations of this world, for at one time or another, they committed acts of genocide.

We should also be aware that the Germans have not hidden their history--Dachau, Sachsenhausen, and others still stand for visitors to see. While in the U.S., we tried to erase our internment of over 100,000 U.S. citizens--who were denied their Constitutional rights and locked up--simply because they were of Japanese descent. At Manzanar, in CA,the site of one of the largest relocation camps of Japanese Americans, there is a little sign, nothing more. The place was demolished almost as soon as the war ended. We also have no musuems depicting our genocide of native Americans...I can go on but you get the idea--if you feel guilty about going to Germany, then you may as well relocate from the U.S. And make sure not to visit about half of the other nations of this world, for at one time or another, they committed acts of genocide.

I am a 32 Jewish man who has deep roots in my religion and have been to Germany 5 times. I often get offended by my fellow Jews who say they'll never go to Germany yet drive a BMW and know very little else about Judaism. I do not think you can characterize an entire country. I've met very nice Germans and not so very nice Germans but I don't hold the entire country accountable today for what happened 50 years ago. To reiterate other posters, the key is to never forget and going to places like Dachau, Ann Frank house, the Jewish Getto in Venice and the Holocaust Museum in Washington helps me to understand why it happened and that we're still here while the Nazis are long gone. Ask your friends if they would travel to states where there have been KKK rallies, neo-Nazi training camps, etc. To me, "never forget" is about retaining a Jewish identity, not denying yourself a visit to a different culture.

civil discussion of a touchy issue--worth a second look?

Definitely an interesting read and it does amaze me how thoughtfully people responded--especially compared to the nastiness and namecalling we have now.

No, this is not that Germany. They have taken responsibility and action so that such tragedy never will happen again. There were Germans who risked everything for their Jewish friends. If all countries who have some terrible things in their past would be as mature as the Germans, this world would be a better place. The Germans born after the war are horrified by what occured (people age 56 and younger so vast majority of Germany).
If you went to Dresden and talked with the people, you would hear some animosity about having their town devastated for no reason right before the end of the war.
I talked with men on the train who had been in prisoner of war camps in the US and one who was in a "baby camp" (end of war and all the German "soldiers" were under 15). He remembered getting chocolate bars and, unfortunately, cigarettes from the GI's. All 3 of them had good things to say about their treatment. They were not bad men or monsters. Another told me about his first encounter, as a young boy, with an American GI. He was hiding in his bed because the Americans were coming and he peeked out and saw a big African American soldier staring at him--scared him because he had never seen a black man before--and the soldier gave him candy. His whole impression of the US changed that day because a soldier saw a child, not an enemy. Bless that soldier because he, too, saw the devastation but realized that the child was not guilty.

Good or bad, Germany has a lot of history. Different people react to the tragedies in different ways. If someone does not wish to hear about Germany, then respect their wishes. However, do not let your friends stop you from taking the vacations you want.

Germany has a lot more to offer than just War history.

Hi

Should I feel guilty about visiting :
Iraq
Grenada
Vietnam
Korea
Japan

???????????

If persecution against Jews is a criteria for avoiding countries, you will never visit Europe.

Did you ever hear of the Inquisition? The Spanish government routinely tortured Jews who refused to convert to Christiantiy. Eventually the Spanish government passed a law forcing all remaining Jews to leave the country.

France has a long history of mass killings of Jews, pogroms that were encouraged by the French government. Even England had occasional pogroms, and for a long time had laws that officially discrimated against Jews.

The only reason to avoid Germany would be to encourage a change in government policies. However, the current government is already very strongly against all forms of anti-Semitism.

The Germans are not as bad as the Americans. In the South, they still wave the Confederate flag. Some do it blindly, others do it as a code word to show they are anti-Black. They claim it is "Southern heritage." Germans do not wave Nazi flags and claim "German heritage."

You see, American Southerners are the real war criminals, defiant and unrepentant.

It's been five years since I posted the original question and a lot has certainly happened since. To some posters above, this was a serious concern, I was not "trolling", as I have no need to do that. I did returned to Germany and brought back great memories that was happy to share when asked. Planning a return trip in May to visit some German friends we made. Thanks for answering to those who care to offer a helpful view.

It is nice to know that you have a social concience. FYI BBC International has just had an article regarding a large number of Jews living in Isreal getting paperwork in order to move back to Germany in case things get bad in the middle east. Some of these Jews were originally from Germany. I thought that was interesting.

Equating the German Final Solution with ANY event or action taken in the US against the Native Americans or African-Americans is a display of ignorance. There is no comparison. The only modern events/actions that come close are the Japanese treatment of POW's and the people of China and Korea, and the Soviet's programs of planned starvation of the rural populations.

I've traveled to Germany and applaud their continuing attempts to distance themselves from the NAZI past. On the other hand, I will not travel to Japan as they continue to ignore the things they did which were at least as bad as, if not worse, than what the NAZI's did.

MM

Eric, in the US I think you'll find that the overwhelming majority of people are very sorry for the sins of slavery. It's not a chapter in American History that most of us are proud of. I'm quite sure the same could be said about Germans in regard to killing Jews.However, there are plenty of Americans who are not sorry about slavery, just like there are Germans who are not sorry for killing Jews. You are really kidding yourself if you see only Americans as unrepentant.

"You see, American Southerners are the real war criminals, defiant and unrepentant"

Well Eric, I'd suggest you learn a bit more about the US before you make such ludicrous statements.

I'd suggest that you'll find more racist tendencies in Boston and the NE than in the South.

My wife and I both have Southern accents and of course we've lived in the South all of our lives except for an intolerable five years in Jersey.

We were in Boston visiting. When we got a taxi cab the driver immediately told us and I quote, "You'll notice that you won't see many niggers here in Boston, we moved them all out of here a few years ago. There won't be many here to upset you, so enjoy your stay."

Now none of my friends in the South speak like that and we certainly have a number of Black and Asian and other ethnic neighbors.

However, Eric, just so you'll know...I have never owned any slaves, no one in my family owned any slaves and I do not feel any guilt, not even one ounce because I've not done anything wrong!

US

I'm German descended Jew. I have visited Germany and wil continue to visit Germany. Regardless of what happened it's still where my family is from. Where a lot of our history is. I can't possibly blame the current generation "for the sins of the father".

Besides, traveling there raises awareness of what happened, and maybe will prevent it from happening again.

This is a terrific discussion. We have been to Germany several times, including to Dachau. I agree that the way to understand and prevent what has happened is by seeing and reading about the history. I use to wonder prior to WWII why so many people from France and the German Empire left Europe. After doing my own genealogy which goes back to Germany of 1871 and doing a little research on the web I understand. The amount of war, hunger and devastation was incredible even prior to WWI and II. There is so much history there that resulted in people coming to the USA that we all need to understand and appreciate what we have today. First hand visits are the best.
Safe traveling to all.

Oh, pleeeeeze, Eric. The British and the New Englanders were the ones who took their ships to get the soon-to-be slaves from their native lands. Have you even been to the South? I must agree with one of the earlier posters, there is more prejudice in the north than in the south now--not to say it doesn't still exist but we have paid much for our sins. The Voting Rights Act should be expanded to cover the entire US.

I think Bobbi makes alot of sense. I have a good friend who is a holocaust survivor and has taken many groups to concentration camps to learn more about the history. I also feel that it is not right to equate americans with slavery as it is not right to equate the german population with the nazi party or hitler. That is something the germans are not proud of.

I was doing an odd search and this turend up. It's an interesting OLD discussion tht remained mostly civil.

Japanese-Canadians, too.

Japanese Canadian Internment

Introduction
"...this government notice, from the newly established British Columbia Security Commission, announced a policy of wholesale evacuation of Japanese Canadians from the so-called coastal defense zone..."
Keeping British Columbia White, Stephen M. Beckow

The evacuation of the Japanese Canadians, or Nikkei Kanadajin, from the Pacific Coast in the early months of 1942 was the greatest mass movement in the history of Canada. By the eve of Pearl Harbor, nearly 23,000 people of Japanese descent made their home in Canada, principally in British Columbia. Three-quarters of that number were naturalized or native-born citizens. The Nikkei were foresters and fishermen, miners and merchants. Except for the industrialists who profited from cheap Asian labor, much of white British Columbia regarded the Japanese Canadians with suspicion, if not rabid hostility. Over the years the Nikkei had been targets of unremitting discrimination and occasional violence.

When war was declared on Japan in December 1941, the cry to rid British Columbia of the Japanese menace was taken up in many quarters, including provincial and municipal government halls and influential local newspapers. Tensions mounted and early in 1942 the Ottawa government bowed to West Coast pressure and began the relocation of Japanese nationals and Canadian citizens alike.

While this forced resettlement mirrored the wartime policy of the American government, in Canada there were some important differences. Unlike the United States, where families were generally kept together, Canada initially sent its male evacuees to road camps in the B.C. interior, to sugar beet projects on the Prairies, or to internment in a POW camp in Ontario, while women and children were moved to six inland B.C. towns created or revived to house the relocated populace. There the living conditions were so poor that the citizens of wartime Japan even sent supplemental food shipments through the Red Cross. During the period of detention, the Canadian government spent one-third the per capita amount expended by the U.S. on Japanese American evacuees.

Not until 1949, four years after Japan had surrendered, were the majority of Nikkei allowed to return to British Columbia. By then most had chosen to begin life anew elsewhere in Canada. Their property had long before been confiscated and sold at a fraction of its worth.

Injustices suffered as a result of these policies fueled a redress movement in the 1980s which coincided with a similar movement in the United States. These efforts, while not uniformly supported by the older Nikkei community, challenged Canada to consider and affirm the depth of its oft-stated commitment to a multicultural society. In 1988, 111 years after the first Japanese entered Canada, Prime Minister Brian Mulroney formally apologized to Japanese Canadians and authorized the provision of $21,000 (Cdn.) to each of the survivors of wartime detention.

This is certainly a fascinating topic, and I am glad it was resurrected. But I must respond to the comment made by "mm" earlier that stated that the Holocaust could not be compared to things like African slavery or the treatment of Native peoples in North America. IN NO WAY do I wish to demean or trivialize the horrors of the Holocaust, however, having acquired a Native Studies degree here in Canada, I can tell you that the atrocities committed against Native peoples in Canada and the U.S. likely felt equally terrifying to those suffering through them as the Holocaust did to the Jews. We cannot compare devastation to devastation, simply because one event killed more people or was more prolific in the history of humanity. In my country many politicians and civilians have attempted to "blot out" the memory of the terrible treatment of Native people that continues today in the form of rampant racism across my otherwise wonderful country. It is so sad that people do these things to one another, I think that the phrase "Lest we forget" that is spoken around the world on November 11th each year should apply to all human atrocities, because many of them have been forgotten.

History Channel showed a doco the other night concerning Hitler's sequel to Mein Kampf. In it, he propounded his theory of why nation-states have to expand or die, and the necessity of liquidating any indigenous populations who are in the way.

He based his theory on the history of America in the 19th century.

I think each individual is entitled to his/her own feelings on this, and there is no one answer for everyone. Each should do what he/she is comfortable with when it comes to optional travel.

I could understand an African person taking a stand against the USA as a Jewish person might against Germany. As a Jewish person myself, I have not been to Germany yet, though have not ruled it out. Yet, when I went to Vienna for the first time last year various thoughts crossed my mind, including the fact that when Hitler's troops entered Vienna they were met by cheering crowds.
Then there's Japan and just about everyplace else.

So, again, no country gets off scott-free about horrendous incidents in its past. Yes, we have to move forward, but we should never forget. And 'never forget' leads to different behavior from different travelers.

my husband and i went to germany to see where my father was born. he was a holocaust survivor. we did not know what to expect but my dad had always said that it was a gorgeous country-so true. the german people were wonderful. i never hid the fact that i was jewish. we have been there twice and may go again in the spring to see areas that we missed. we too have friends with the same opinion. ignore them. they do not know what they are missing. enjoy

If this were a simple matter of not visiting countries with which the US has had major disagreements in the past then there would be a lot of European countries starved for US visitors, INCLUDING the UK, Italy, etc., etc.

But of course we have now added the "religious" issue as well as the "atrocity" issue.

I think Elaine has summed it up pretty well. It is entirely up to you and if your "friends" are trying to send you on some sort of guilt trip, knwoingly or unknowingly, then you may have a couple of issues to deal with.

What DO these people hope to accomplish by not going to Germany and perhaps frowning on those who do? I can understand it as a symbolic gesture but realistically that is all it is.

If you think it is "wrong" to go there then don't go. If you think it is not wrong, then go; your friends will either have to accept that or find new ones.

remember the heinous crimes committed there, but also celebrate a country that has much to offer. you can't penalize a new generation of people for what an older generation did. then we'd never evolve as people. people need to reexamine their ill harboring will towards people, then we'd be making progress.

Besides, all the Nazis are in Argentina!

I had the same feelings about Germany..I am Jewish ..but married to a non-Jew, so we agreed that we would go to Germany and if I got uncomfortable we would leave. (this was many years ago by the way). I agreed to go only to Southern Germany. (somehow this didn't seem as bad). I mean how can a place that has The Romantic Road be evil..anyway it turned out fine. The area was lovely and we had good food....or maybe I just refused to let it bother me.

I was more bothered in Austria on the same trip I believe, when I saw guards who were permanently stationed in front of a synagogue because there were so many attacks on it...!!

It appears that many Eastern European Jews do not have the same misgiving. A recent article on the Deutche Welle site (www.dw-world.de)states that since Germany offered citizenship to Jewish immigrants from the Soviet Bloc in 1991, some 190,000 have become German citizens. Indeed, the rate of immigration now exceeds that to Israel

Why has this one come up again? Visit where you want to visit...the people that hang on to old grudges are the ones that keep the world in turmoil.

This is a thought-provoking thread and I'm glad it was resurrected. I've been to Germany several times and go along with the poster who said "You condone nothing by taking a trip there, and you broaden your mind and experience." In my case I learned to take people as I find them, not judge them by their national history. I learned similar lessons when I took in Japanese language students as a B&B host (in WW2 my part of the world was more threatened by Japan than Germany). By visiting places like Dachau we are perhaps keeping alive our feelings of horror and helping prevent a recurrence. I hope so anyway.

I lived in Germany for almost 7 years and people are people. Also remember, if it bothers you that Hitler was not German, but Austrian as were several of his top Nazi’s'. Lower Germany has some beautiful country and I found the Germans to be very friendly and hospitable.

Elaine has it exactly right. Each is entitled to their own feelings. Traveldawg misses the point. It's not "grudges" that people hang on to, but feelings and memories that may wane but that do not go away.

My family was forced to leave Hamburg in 1935. It was a blessing. All our relatives had similar experiences, and none were exterminated. I do not have a grudge, but to this day I cannot help but feel uncomfortable when I have contact with Germans, no matter how innocent. German cities have programs to subsidize return visits of former residents that were forced to leave during the Hitler regime. The City of Hamburg where I lived before 1935 made me such an offer. I was not really mentally prepared to accept anything from a country whose history is so abhorrent. I felt it would be like making a pact with the Devil. However, after talking with a friendly woman representative, I accepted the offer, rationalizing that I wasn’t accepting much from this nice Devil. I made the trip, was able to find my former residence, visit the University where my father had worked, and met many gracious and friendly Germans. Nevertheless, the feelings remain and that's just the way it is.