pariswat

Apparently the shootings in St Denis (northern of Paris suburb) are finished.
It should be considered as an aftermath of the attacks of last friday.
According to 'Le Monde' (a very serious newspaper) Police did their job and arrested some people highly suspected in being involved in the attacks.
2 'suspects' would have have been killed. Reading it like that I have more sympathy for the dog of the 'Raid' (highly skilled police - like the SWAT teams) who has been killed.

Seems the police are doing their job. Good of them. Good for us.

http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/live/2...2231_3224.html

mvg

sandralist

I hope not all of Europe takes up the attitude that shooting suspects dead is "good riddance to the animals" before any real information is available about whether those killed were indeed involved in any terroristic activity and whether killing them was justified.

ISIS doesn't win when you stop shopping or going to a fishbowl cafe. ISIS wins when you give up on rule of law and descend to their level. You're doing their work for them.

Rubicund

Of the two people who died, reports are that one of them killed herself with a suicide bomb. Not ordinary garb for those who weren't "involved in any terroristic (sic) activity".

The BBC news site is reporting that police had "very good intelligence" that these people were involved in the killings. ISIS wins when you don't do anything against them. You need to talk to them in the language that they understand, not appeasement. Ask Neville Chamberlain.

sandralist

And so it begins... It has all been so predictable. Let us hope there are enough voices to stand up against this kind of thinking, who won't back down and a majority for the preservation of civil society can hold. It will take considerable courage to face down the avenging mob.

kerouac

Avenging mob? Have there been lynchings that you have been hiding from us, sandralist?

73% of the French think that Hollande has done a good job with this situation. (90% on the left, 63% on the right)

sandralist

By the way, I'm not criticising the police activity in St Denis or raising suspicions against it. I'm warning against a reactionary mentality that feeds into the ISIS narrative and its strategy. That knee-jerk "makes me feel good to say it" reaction is the wrong move that will only add to the dangers ordinary people already face from strategising terrorists.

sandralist

kerouac,

Said to say, it doesn't surprise me that 73 percent of French think Hollande has done a good job, and the policies he is now pursuing are pandering to an avenging mob mentality, to the detriment of everyone's security. I am sorry to this going the direction it is going. There is plenty of room to learn from recent history as to why these emotional reactions do not lead to anything but more chaos, worsening everything. Perhaps emotions will retreat and reason will prevail this time -- but sadly, I am seeing less and less evidence of it, and the mistakes and the descent into further chaos is the most likely result.

It is up to the people who are advocating the failed policies of the past to explain why this time it's going to be different, and re-applying these failed policies will work. But they are not going to do that if instead the majority of the public applauds doing more of the same out of fear and anger.

bilboburgler

I think sandra is dead right to be concerned about the knee-jerk. I see this am that attacks on mosques have risen in the US. Why for goodness sake cannot people see beyond "they are all muslims" to "these are people who believe in a distorted version of a world religion"?

Still I see blowing yourself up as identifying yourself as a dupe who is a candidate for the Darwin award. http://www.darwinawards.com/

I suspect that it is very hard to arrest people who strap themselves into bombs and hence I fully support a shoot first attitude by the French police at this time.

Rubicund

I also believe that you cannot paint all Muslims with the terrorist brush and that fanatics have nothing to do with peaceful Islam. I am interested though, in what can and should be done at this time to sort out this mess. Don't say "education", that's too long term. Can you talk to them? I fear not. So what's the answer?

kerouac

I have been trying to understand what sandralist and bilbo are trying to say. Since they seem to completely agree with each other, I'm sure that either one can answer.

What policy are you complaining about in France? There is a desire to increase security, and frankly my Muslim neighbors and the Algerian who runs my newwstand -- and who lives in Saint Denis and had a hell of a time coming to open his kiosk this morning -- are much more virulently in favor of restrictive measures than most of the ethnic French. Many of them come from -- or their parents come from -- much more restrictive countries than France and they generally think that France is a bit too lax, even though they accept our rules. In any case France is home to them and they usually feel very safe here. The laws of secularism have allowed them to blend into French culture much more easily than most other Western countries, and there are very few cancerous tumors of radical Islam in the country, no matter what Rupert Murdoch thinks.

But since both of you know what is being done wrong, could you briefly give a description of the measures you would take if you were running France right now?

chartley

After the 2005 London tube bombings, there was a state of high alert and police searched for other terrorists who they suspected had been involved. A man was identified who lived in a flat in South London, and he was followed by armed police as he travelled by bus to Stockwell tube station. There he was shot dead as he sat on the tube train.

In fact, he was a totally innocent Brazilian electrician. His unexceptional actions were misinterpreted as being the suspicious behaviour of a terrorist.

Details are at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_...les_de_Menezes.

While there are circumstances where shoot to kill is appropriate, it is all too easy for things to go wrong when adrenalin and anxiety levels are high.

Pepper_von_snoot

Should we shoot that dude with the Salafist beard?

Is he a terrorist or just trendy? Dude!

I have just ordered Michel Houellebecq's Submission from Amazon!

Thin

flpab

RIP Diesel, the police dog killed in Paris tackling terrorists. Unsung heroes of police works #Paris

bilboburgler

kerouac, only agreeing with sandra about knee-jerk concerns, well behind all present short term actions as I would be in the UK's actions.

Equally I don't want another "George W Bush war on terror" and I'm really scared of a possible Trump presidency (anyone who can lose so much family money is not fit to run a country).

The longer term issue, which to me is what is a possible outcome in Syria rather than what should we do today is critical. After all politics is finding the way from what we want to what we can get.

I also remember what towns and cities look like after "liberation". Be that Falaise or in Vietnam

So I suspect we will end up with a two pronged attack, one big stick and one big carrot. It is also worth looking at our Turkish correspondent and his recent link that shows ties between ISIS and the Turkish secret service, the possible acceleration of Turkey's access to the EU to "save us from the hordes" etc etc. That will be on the cards in 2016.

I will also remind tous that I advised that Putin would do anything rather than lose his port in the Med (northern Syria) over 2 years ago. I see that coming true now.

sandralist

Kerouac,

This very succinctly sums up my concerns. It's a short read:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ponse-war-isis

Rubicand,

You surely will find this an interesting read

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...errorists-isis

Pepper_von_snoot

Looks like someone in St. Denis was arrested sans pants!

Photo on NYTimes webpage shows fat ass being hauled away.

ROFL! The humiliation of a terrorist!

What does the Koran state about showing your big fat naked ass in public whilst being manacled by the gendarmerie?

Thin

thursdaysd

ISIS is a cancer. If the immune system (local fighters) can't eradicate cancer, you cut it out. I was opposed (very opposed) to the Iraq war. I am not opposed to fighting ISIS on the ground. That doesn't mean I favor abandoning civil liberties in the west.

annhig

thank you for those two links, SL. they set out what the "west" is doing wrong but are pretty short on what our leaders ought to be doing.

perhaps you have some suggestions for them?

kerouac

Yes, that's what I asked for. Anybody can parrot media analysis.

I am wondering what people would be saying if the polls had said that 73% of the French <b>disapproved</i> of Hollande's handling of events. Bring back Front National clone Sarkozy?

BritishCaicos

Or perhaps she would like to attempt to arrest suicide bombers without using force.

Indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas where the population are guilty by association is morally indefensible.

Trying to put handcuffs on a suicide bomber is insane.