tom_h

My 20 yr old son will be on a 5 month trip to western europe starting this January, and I've just found out about these "Schengen treaty" visas. Note, he is a US citizen and will be tourist travelling, not a study abroad program.

For the Schengen Countries (Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Italy, Greece, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain and Sweden) apparently you can only stay a grand total of 90 days in any 6 month period.

For longer stays on needs this Schengen visa, and they are asking all sort of questions on the application form.

Has anyone here had to navigate this Schengen visa process?

As I understand it, one should apply to country of "main destination" (son doesn't have one) or to the country of "first entry" (son doesn't know yet). His first country is UK (not covered by Schengen), but after that he's winging it.

Q1) is this "first entry" stuff enforced? eg, what if he applies to Belgium and then decides he'd rather go to France first?

Q2) are any countries on the list likely to be less anal or stringent about the Schengen visa application?

Eg, a Schengen visa requires proof of health insurance but only Germany seemed to require "health insurer must have a european office / reprentative". Not likely for California Blue Cross!

Plus germany & Spain were asking for photocopies of *hardcopy* airline tix, no intrnet receipts allowed! Just Crazy. Who wants to travel with easily lost hardcopies nowadays, if your airline will even provide them?!

Q3) any other tips concerning this Schengen visa stuff?

TIA.

lincasanova

i am not a visa expert.. but i do work with students and other non-eu professionals.. i can only tell you that if he is travelling by land in between these eu countries, once his 90 days is up, he will have fewer problems than by air.
and.. at least from spain, once he is on his way home with ticket back to the usa, even though his "time" has expired.. they doubtfully will say a thing.

i wouldn't worry about it.
i know many people who are CONSTANTLY not "in order".
they don't even know what to do with the ILLEGAL immigrants, much less a stray american or australian tourist.

i definitely would NEVER apply to spain for anything if not necessary.
try england. they may do this more quickly and harmlessly..

111op

I've one comment -- it's possible that your son will be asked to show a return ticket when he enters in the first port of entry. If the return is open or if the return is 5 months later, the immigration officer will certainly be asking some questions. So I would take what lincasanova wrote with a huge grain of salt. Don't assume that you can get in, stay for 5 months, travel by land, and it'll all be fine. Even if your son travels by land, what happens when he leaves at the end of the visit? The passport is typically inspected again then, no, and what if the officer notices that the passport was stamped five months prior?

I'm not sure if the Schengen visa is really what you need. I've looked at the procedures for applying for a French long-term visa via the French consulate's web page. If I recall, a local sponsor is required for a stay beyond 90 days, at least for France.

111op

You can find information for a long stay in France here:

http://www.consulfrance-newyork.org/...isitervisa.htm

(And France only.)

I think that the Schengen Visa applies to short stays, but I could be mistaken. US Citizens should not be applying for a Schengen Visa.

ssachida

Ping Patrick.
He takes long european vacations (5-6 months). He should know!!

Mischka

Hi Tom,
Count yourself lucky that you only have to do this for a 'long' trip, we have to do it for almost every trip! We are just in the process of doing it for our December trip to Austria and Italy and it is a pain! The best advice I can give you is to do what is asked and do it with a smile because some countries don't think twice about turning down your visa request.
You do need to get a paper ticket for the flight (return ticket).
Itaty is very picky, so don't choose that as the main destination (even though I love Italy). We did it through Italy a few months ago and didn't have a problem but we do have a job to come back to (with letter from employer) etc. Others have not been as lucky with Italy. I think most counties are a little careful of young folk who may not be planning to go home within the required time.
You need bank statements with plenty cash avaliable.
You need to get on the net and book hotels (can be cancelled after you have the visa).
You have to get medical insurance. It helps if you pay for you ticket with a credit card.
Once you have the visa you can change your mind about first country of entry, just don't tell them that you plan to do that.
Just make sure your son knows his story as to his plans and sticks to it when he is interviewed. I do think that they understand that plans may change a little, but they just want to be pretty sure that he won't be staying when he shouldn't or getting a job he shouldn't have.
Buy the way, for us the hardest country to get a visa for is the USA!
Good luck.

lincasanova

i can only repeat what i know of colleagues here coming and going and staying and not having time to get visas, etc. etc.. as well as travelling retirées or bull fighting enthusiasts who have just "come" over here.. and stayed and stayed and stayed.

(i am only talking about americans or canadians)

i cetainly would just try to apply to the EASIEST country.. so forget spain as there is no way you will even get all the right information when you call, etc..
i personally asked the immigration guardia civil on last departure about these particular situations of friends( and clients) who overstay their 90 days because they want to go to other countries, etc... and they told me " if the person in question is returning to his own country.. we will just let him go, but we CANNOT let him go through another country if his papers are not in order." end of quote.

hopefully you do have the time to get this done properly, ...but in case you don't and the tickets are bought...or it is impossible to get done in time..i wouldn't lose sleep over it.

maybe he should spend his last part of trip in spain.. they do not take action here on these types of cases like they said if you are actually on way home at last airport.

i personally know many people right now.. that are here.. no visa. kids in school, no visas, and will go to states to pick up first temporary visa once they decide if they are staying another year or not. they are not even doing anything about it yet.. it was so complicated.

111op

I'm going to sound another cautionary note. Sure, lots of people don't follow the rules. But what happens if the person is caught? Do you want your son to run that risk?

Of course, comparing European vs. American immigration regulations is like comparing apples with oranges. Many europeans who visit the US for fewer than 90 days don't need a visa (under the visa waiver program). But if you overstay your visa just once, I think that you'll need to apply for a visa from now on. If you overstay by more than a certain number of days, you can be subject to bans from entering the US.

I would not risk the possibility of not being able to visit a certain country again. I don't know what penalties European countries can potentially impose, but I think that you should as least call/visit the consulates and get the proper information from the horse's mouth. Anyway, records are all computerized, so I think that it's easier than people think to track violations.

tom_h

We definitely plan to follow the 90-day rules for visas, and will not be taking a "chance". I'm too risk averse for that!

What makes this Schengen visa thing complicated to me, is that my son will NOT be spending more than 90-days total in any ONE Schengen country, although he WILL be spending over 90-days *combined* in Schengen countries.

So I think he needs the visa, but there is no clear FAQ for this situation at several consulate websites I checked. So I will have to start calling the consulates.

Thanks for the advice about avoiding the Spanish & Italian consulates and their beauracracy!

>>> What country's consulates might be reliable and easier to deal with?
The Scandinavians? The Benelux?


Again, note that my son (US citizen) will be flying California to London round trip (his first entry point, not a Schengen country), will stay in UK a few weeks, then start his Schengen country travels, plus some eastern european countries (not Schengen), and finally return home via London

111op

I was also thinking about the same -- maybe it's ok to spend 2 months in France and 2 months in Germany, say (well, the French consulate web page states that a long stay is when you stay in France for more than 90 days).

But it's something you need to confirm.

You should also check with the UK consulate to see how long your son is allowed to stay in the UK without a visa. My guess would be 6 months, but I don't know for sure. Even though your son will be traveling to other countries, the ticket will show that he's returning from the UK five months later, so to be absolutely safe, I'd check to see that he doesn't need a visa for the UK even if he spends the entire five months in the UK. That way, he'll not have any trouble with UK immigration at all.

indie

tom_h

We did get a schengen visa several times.
We were in the UK at that time on a work visa.

Yes you should apply to the country of main entry. On entry it is not regulated, however we had got ours at the French consultae, first port of netry ended up being Italy because my husband was sent there on work. No problems entering Italy. But the next time we needed a visa, the French consulate refused saying we had entered Italy first on our previous visa. BUT - here's the kicker, I was trying to get a visa from the Netherlands consulate - and they would take a day to issues it, and I had a ticket to fly out the very next day, so the official there sent me to the French consulate and they issued a visa knowing France was not my first port of entry and we had no problesm entering either fo the two countries on that trip.

France and Netherlands are easier to deal with. However I applied for a schengen visa from the Italian consulate in Houston, no problems - but yes more documentation needed.

I do not recall having to furnish health insurance info. We used to just show the our itineraries, never had an actual ticket. Also we had print outs of our hotel reservations, however for Italy we did not have hotel bookings when we applied for the visa, this did not present a problem, however you will have to provide it when you actually enter the country - but again they may not be as stringent if you are an American citizen.

As far as our stay we never have stayed londer than about 28 days -so I have no info on the duration of stay.

indie

okay just to apologize - I cannot type - did not run spell check

tom_h

I've confirmed the UK allows 6 month visits by US citizens without any visas required, so my son's OK as far as that goes. His total duration overseas will be at most 5 months.

ssachida

This is from the web-site of the italian consulate in chicago:

"N.B. : If the person travels in other Schengen Countries the days spent in those Countries are included in the 90 days allowed in a six month period."

So, no, you can't spend 2 months in each country. The page also clearly states that the Schengen tourist visa is only valid for 90 days(so an american would not even need one).

However, it's possible for one to extend your stay while in Italy (and presumably other countries as well ...)

"The request for an extension of a Permit of Stay (Permesso di Soggiorno), issued for a period over 90 days, should be submitted by the foreign national, at least one month prior to its expiration, at the competent Italian Questura. The Questura will review his/her status and decide if an extension can be granted. "

Don't know if any of this helped, but your best bet is to actually go to a schenegan country's consulate and talk to them. From my experience with the french, italian and UK consulates, I can tell you that they are more forth-coming in person than on the phone/fax or email.

Good luck. It's not that hard once you figure out what documents are necessary. I've applied for atleast 15 visas so far (I'm not american) and now its pretty much routine.

isabel

I'm no expert on this but it seems to me that if he is flying into and out of the UK, and the UK says he can stay 6 months and he is only staying 5 months, then he shouldn't really have any problem. Consider the following:

If he is traveling by car or train between countries no one will ever even look at his passport (at least for Western Europe, not sure about Eastern Europe).

They rarely stamp passports anymore, even when entering Europe straight from the US. So even if someone did look at his passport they wouldn't necessarily be able to tell when he entered any given country.

If he is flying between countries they will want to see his passport and ticket for that flight, but probably won't ask to see his US to Europe ticket so again, they'd have no way to tell how long he's been in Europe. I flew between Italy and the Czech Rep last summer and they never asked to see my ticket from the US to Italy. The passport had not been stamped when I entered Italy. In fact, the last time it had been stamped was over a year ago. No one asked how long I was planning to be there. Last year I flew from England to Ireland and again, they look at the passport and the ticket for that flight, but not for the transatlantic flight. I've taken trains or driven a car between about 10 countries in the last few years and no one ever looked at a passport (there is no more border control).

When you enter the first country, sometimes they do ask your purpose and length of stay (France seems to do this, I don't recall anywhere else doing it lately, but then I obviously haven't been everywhere so others might as well). That's the only time that he might have to explain his plans.

When you do have to get a short term visa (like for study abroad) their main concerns are that you have a return ticket and that you can prove you have enough money so that you won't need to work while you are there. So if he has these two areas covered he would probably be OK.

I'm very cautious usually, I hate risk. But in this case it seems you may be making more work for yourself than necessary. Also, if you are really afraid the Schengen countries would enforce the 90 day rule, all he'd have to do is make a short trip back to the UK for a weekend and he'd be OK. Wouldn't he?

flanneruk

You're getting some very bad advice above. So:

1. What happens for the UK is irrelevant to your problem. He'll get 6 months permission to stay in the UK each time he enters the UK, as long as the immigration official is happy to let him in at all. That has no bearing on his legality within Schengen. It's virtually impossible to travel between the UK and Schengen without passport inspection on entry into Schengen.
2. As you say, your son gets 90 days in any 180. <b> Trying to play clever-clever games with popping over borders and coming back again is pointless and irrelevant If he's been in Schengen for 91 days in the past 180 he's illegal. However often he's gone to Molvania and come back again </b>
3. Europe's police have more things to do than officiously ferreting out every overstaying American kid. There's a possibility he'll be undetected. But, if he's travelling, it's not a high possibilty. Border checks can be - and are - re-instated at no notice, when there's a terrorism scare, when prominent ETA leaders are arrested, when prisoners break out of jail or when the police union wants a bit of overtime.
4. Being illegal is DUMB. Seriously, seriously DUMB. If you're a persecuted Afghan, it's better than being back home. But for an American with 70 years of world travel ahead of him, having &quot;Deported&quot; on your passport, and on most of the world's computer systems, is pointless. Trying to wing it is as sensible as having unprotected sex with strangers or driving after a bottle of wine. Chances are he'll get away with it, but is it really worth the consequences if he doesn't?
5. Governments have the right to be just as stupid or impertinent to foreigners as they choose - a right your own government exercises fully. Your son, like all foreigners, has precisely one right: not to come here. If he doesn't like the questions he's asked, or thinks they're stupid, he should stay away. If they impose requirements he can't conform to, then he needs either to find a way to conform or make alternative travel arrangements.

What this all comes down to is that Schengen's rules (3 months with no visa, or else get a visa) are just the same - without the fingerprinting and interrogation - as those your own fine country imposes on Schengen citizens.

I strongly suggest you put your energy into conforming with Schengen's rules. As I understand it, the &quot;country of first entry&quot; rule isn't enforced literally, not least because it isn't practical: if he's flying to Spain, it's quite likely he'll go through Schengen immigration at Frankfurt, Paris or Amsterdam.

I suggest you choose an unstuffy local Schengen consulate (like Holland or Sweden) and ask their advice on this.

But do not try to outsmart Europe's bureaucrats. They've been at it longer than you.

Jackie_in_Italy

As an American living in Italy, I have to agree partly with flanneruk in that, it IS serious to be illegal in Europe, even if there is a good possibility you will go undetected.

In England, these matters are strictly enforced, and they will possibly ask to see his return ticket, etc., countries he's traveling in, perhaps even a print out of his bank statement to make sure he has funds to travel. It's like a visitor coming to America--he's not going to get away with anything in England.

Also, I don't think, in these Schengen countries, that you can apply for a tourist visa that lasts longer than 3 months. I don't know what other kind of visa he would apply for. It doesn't really make sense for him to get a permit to stay upon arrival, because he's not staying in one place. In Italy, as far as my experience has been with a tourist permit to stay, most places won't let you renew them. (and do you realize what it takes to get a permit to stay? once it is granted, it can take up to three months before you can actually retrieve the thing from the questura in Italy).

Also, since I have come and gone from Italy to the states many times, I have had experiences where no one asks a thing, and then other experiences where the passport officials question me about my stay. I have a friend who got scolded pretty badly for having a permit to stay that had expired three days prior. I don't agree about them rarely stamping passports. They almost always stamp mine--in AND out of Europe, and in England they will stamp his passport.

Anyway, isn't there any way he can just go on a three month trip? Or, if he wants to spend the last two months in non Schengen countries? It seems like that would be the solution--spend three months visiting Schengen countries and then the last two months in Eastern European countries.

Not trying to scare you, tom_h. There is a good possibility that he will go undetected, since between Schengen countries they don't even have to ask for your passport (just a form of ID).

BUT, I just think to chance it seems somewhat silly--sure, there's the possibility that he'll be fine. There's also the possibility that he'll get in trouble. And those last two months he'll be traveling, it's be nicer for HIM if he could breathe easy and not always have to worry about his expired tourist visa.

Queenie

Have you posted this question on the thorn tree?
http://thorntree.lonelyplanet.com/

The Gap Year and RTW Travel branch is full of backpacker kids with info who have actually done this. Most are from UK or OZ, but US kids post too. This may provide insight on how to research further.

I also agree with Jackie about stamping the passports. If you fly, they will stamp your passport (except CH for some reason). I have had to get 2 additional sets of pages put in my passport in the past 3 years because of all the stamps. Your son may want to have this done (free) before he leaves the US, just in case.

Hans

My personal opinion: don?t bother. If your son travels for 5 months in Europe, it?s totally believable that he stayed for 60 days outside of the Schengen zone.
I mean, he arrives at London and stays a few weeks in the UK (not Schengen). He spends a few weeks in Eastern European countries (not Schengen). He can say he spent several weeks in Switzerland (not Schengen). There is no way Switzerland and the Swiss neighbours could control and register every person crossing their borders. If he worries, he could try to get some stamps in the passport to prove that he left the Schengen zone several times.
And as a matter of fact, he?s actually close to the legal limit of 90 days. Nobody really cares whether a tourist who makes no trouble, causes no costs and doesn?t try to stay somewhere permanently, stays for 90 or for 105 days in the Schengen zone. We?re speaking about an action which is pretty close to being legal, which has a plausible cover story, which doesn?t hurt anyone and which is nearly impossible to prove.
By the way, the Schengen zone has an integrated computer system. But it contains the data of people, cars etc. sought in connection to crimes, not the data of all tourists entering the Schengen zone. When you enter or leave a country at an airport or if you get into a control somewhere in the Schengen zone, there is good chance that your name is run through the system to see whether the police seeks you but that?s all (and not even these data are complete).

elina

I just want to comment this passport stamping people are talking about. I haven't had my passport stamped anywhere in Europe in about ten years. Except about five years ago entering Estonia. And nowadays entering Russia. Passports are not normally stamped, this is 2004, they are scanned. And there is a computer system that links all Schengen countries, and also some none Schengen ones. They can follow your trail. Plus they can see all kinds of other things.

Once I was returning to Finland from Estonia, and a man that came right after me was taken aside, and asked to stay put till the police arrives. I don't know the reason, all the border control did was flashed his passport to the computer.