LadyMezzo

Hello Everyone,

I am an American opera singer singing in Italy with a visa sponsored by my theater that I'm working for. My question is about my fiancé coming to visit me:

My fiancé be visiting this month over the holidays - December 22nd-January 5th (15 days), and then he's hoping to come back May 1st-July 28th and spend 3 months with me this summer.

I understand that he is subject to the 90 days out of 180 day rule to be able to stay in Italy. Will he be ok with these planned dates?  

As I see it, with a start date of December 22nd, the 180 day period ends June 19th.  As of June 19th, adding up the first trip, (15 days) and from May1-June 19 (50 days) - he's still well below the 90 day limit.  Then, through research online, it seems he would have to leave the Schengen area on the 180th day, and return a day or so later to start the next 180 days. Then he would stay from June 21st-July 28 (38 days).  Therefore, he would never be in Italy for more than 90 days consecutively.  Does this work? 

Thank you for any help...I've scoured the internet and EVERYTHING seems to either conflict or just not address my situation. I've also emailed the Italian Embassy in the States, but I'm not encouraged...

CIAO!

hetismij2

No he couldn't leave Schengen for only a day or two and then return after his 90 days are up. He has 90 days in any 180, which means when his 90 days are up he has to wait 90 days before he can return.
Provided his 90 days are taken within 180 days of his first entry he is fine. Leaving doesn't reset the clock.

LadyMezzo

Yes, I understand - but his 180 days from first entry will be finished on June 19th, so won't June 20th begin the new 180 day period?

DebitNM

I used this calculator and it took a bit of figuring how to work it properly, but it worked. Good luck.

http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs...ulator_en.html

bvlenci

You really need to ask the Italian consulate in the US. However, I don't think you've understood the rule correctly. Most importantly, the 90 in 180 days rule means that when you've been in the Schengen area for 90 days, you have to leave the area for 90 days, not one day, before you can come back. However, I don't know why he'd have to leave on the 19th of June. At that point, he's only been in the country for 65 days out of the previous 180. He should be able to stay until he's been in the country for 90 days, which would end on July 19th.

However, by the time he's been there for 90 days, the time since the first entrance is more than 180 days earlier. I don't know if this would give him more days, but since he wouldn't have been out of the country for 90 days after the December visit, probably he wouldn't be able to stay past July 19th.

Remember that I'm not an immigration expert, just a citizen of Italy who has known various people who have had longish stays on tourist visas, and I've heard the matter discussed, and have read up on it. You really need to talk to the consulate in the US.

hetismij2

No it doesn't work like that. He has to be out for 90 days - it is as I said any 90 days in 180. Leaving does not reset the clock so he can return a couple of days later, otherwise people would be doing that all the time and effectively living in the country without going through all the legalities involved.

LadyMezzo

Hi, Thank you! Yes, the first six month period will finish during the second trip, so I don't know if that means that he will then be eligible for additional days - in the second 6 month period. I appreciate everyone's input! If anyone has any further info, I would appreciate it.

Thanks!

november_moon

Think of the 180 days as a rolling period of time - you always have to look back at the last 180 days and count the number of days a person has been in the Schengen Zone during that time period. As of today, 12/18/14, the loop back period is from 6/22/14 through today. Tomorrow, 12/18/14, the 180 look-back period will be from 6/23/14.

bvlenci

Actually, I realize I made a mistake. After his visit in December, he will have been out of the country for more than 90 days already before he returns in May. So he should have a fresh 90 days' stay again.

According to Debit's calculator they would begin the first 90 day period in November, meaning it would end in February. The second 90-day period would end on May 2nd. If that's the case, he could start a new 180 days on May 3nd. In the first 180-day period, he would have been in the country only 17 days (15 in December and January, and 2 in May). In the second period, he'd be in the country only 89 days (or 87 days, depending on when they count the start).

Debit's calculator seems to indicate that he could stay for 90 days after his arrival on May 1st. I'm not sure why they began the first 180 days on November 3rd, because that's only 178 days before the May 1st arrival.

Anyway, the calculator isn't worth anything if there is an immigration problem, so do talk to the consulate.

LadyMezzo

Thank you bvlenci! I have 6 emails into 6 Consulates...so we'll see what happens. I will be sure to report back

bvlenci

Usually only the official consulate for the area where you live will deal with an issue like that. When I was coming to Italy permanently, I wanted to use the consultate in New York, which was more convenient to where I lived (in Princeton, NJ), but they insisted I had to use the Philadelphia consulate.

bvlenci

The consulate in Philadelphia gave me the wrong information in the end, as a result of which I was inadvertently an illegal immigrant for the first 90 days I lived here. They told me that my visa "for family unification" was good for 90 days, after which I had to visit the prefecture of police to get it renewed. Instead, according to the commissioner in charge of immigration, I was supposed to have visited them immediately on arrival. I pleaded that I was following the instructions of the Italian consulate in the US, and he snorted, "The consulate! What do they know?"

Then he fixed it the Italian way: he falsified the date of entry on my immigration papers. Since my passport had a visa stamp with the correct date of entry, when I was applying for Italian citizenship I was afraid they would notice the discrepancy and kick me out of the country, but they either didn't notice or didn't care. I hate to say it, but if I were a bit darker or a bit poorer, and from a country a bit further south or east, it might not have ended that way.

bilboburgler

"Then he fixed it the Italian way: he falsified the date of entry on my immigration papers. Since my passport had a visa stamp with the correct date of entry, when I was applying for Italian citizenship I was afraid they would notice the discrepancy and kick me out of the country, but they either didn't notice or didn't care"

Love it, "the paper is the truth", so if you can't live with the truth change the paper. So Italian. Think of this when you ride in the insurance documented elevator in your Italian hotel!

bvlenci

Well, he did me a big favor, because you can't regularize your immigration status in-country once you're there illegally. I would have had to return to the US and get it straightened out by the consulate there.

I'm sure that some hotels, especially smaller mom-and-pop hotels, wouldn't be above falsifying insurance stickers and inspection stickers. Even in big cities like Rome, Milan and Venice (all three of which have been hit with major corruption scandals recently) I think major hotels would not risk their business for a piddling insurance premium. In the area where I live, in rural Le Marche, people tend to stick to the law, and then bitch about it.

LadyMezzo

Well, I've contacted 6 consulates including the one that issued my visa, and the one where my fiancé lives right now - no word as of yet...and I'm not encouraged as I've received automated emails back saying they would respond if they deemed my question important enough...

So what should I do? Try to find someone in Italy to speak to? My fiancé and I are both opera singers who need to be able to travel internationally frequently and breaking immigration laws could make our jobs/careers very difficult.

Thanks...

Sojourntraveller

I don't know why people find the Schengen rule so difficult to understand. It is '90 days in any 180 calendar day period.'

The operative word there is 'any' which means it is a ROLLING 180 day period. On any given day what you must do is look back 180 days on a calendar and count how many days you have been in Schengen during that time. You are allowed 90.

You do NOT have to leave for 90 consecutive days UNLESS you have been in Schengen for the last 90 consecutive days. So for example, you can be in for 30 days, out for 30 days and repeat that 30 in, 30 out FOREVER. At no point will you have been in Schengen for 90 in the last 180 calendar days!!!

People constantly focus on the 90 and don't seem to understand the 180. As a result you constantly see commments about having to leave for 90 days. This is WRONG.

If the OP's fiance is in for 15 days ending on January 5th, look at a calendar. Around June 15th(I'm not doing an exact count here), it will be 180 says since January 5th. At that point, the LAST ONE day where he was in Schengen will fall off the last 180 days. From that point on it will only be his current stay that counts in the 90 days he is allowed. Which basically means he has only to count from his May 1 entry for 90 consecutive days to see when he must leave again if he does not do so before that. Since May has 31 and June 30 days, he can stay in Schengen till July 29th.

You have NO problem LadyMezzo.

kybourbon

The Schengen Visa was amended June, 2013. The definition changed Oct. 2013.

There are different scenarios listed on the link along with charts.

http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs..._manual_en.pdf

Sojourntraveller

That is correct kybourbon, it was amended in the sense that it was made clearer. The calculator linked by DebitNM works quite well.

The traveller enters the date you plan to enter the Schengen, in the case of the OP that would be the May 1 date her fiance will return to Schengen on. Then below that the traveller enters the dates s/he was last in the Schengen in this case Dec/Jan 5. It then tells him that he will be good for 90 days from the May 1st date he plans to enter on.

There is no problem but people continue to misunderstand that the 180 days is a ROLLING 180 days and you still see people insisting you must leave for 90 days which has NEVER been the case.