Schengen violator has questions

You were really lucky to get away without a fine and an entry in your passport.

When travelling to a foreign country, it's the traveller's duty (who else's?) to check in advance if there are any visa rules to observe, isn't it?
Any travel guide book, the website of any embassy, any country's tourist information website contains this kind of information.

1. Yes. get a visa before you leave.

2. Ignorantia iuris neminem excusat

3. It's the law. It's to control entry to a country.

You're supposed to apply for a visa before you arrive, from the first Schengen country you plan to visit. Then it's valid in all the others. And not to be unsymaptehtic, but it's your responsibilty to organise what visas or otehr entry clearance you need. You seem to have got away with it this time, as it doesn't sound as if they've blacklisted you.

Purpose: to stop people from coming with the intention of working illegally, basically. Few tourists with jobs at home can spare more than three months for a trip.

I do feel lucky, under the circumstances. But it was not hard to miss this news-- a slightly outdated guidebook wouldn't have had it, and I didn't see it in the paper. I've spent a lot of time on tourist websites (not embassy ones, I'll admit), without seeing this warning, just encouragement to visit. I knew I couldn't stay in any particular country, but didn't realize there was a new rule applying to all EU countries.

You joined Fodors in 2007. Since then, there have been many posts about the rules of staying in the Schengen zone (do a simple search). So how can you honestly report it was "not hard to miss" this news? Especially when you admit you DID hear about it on Fodors? You were very lucky that the Greek official was so permissive.

After I have slaughtered my wife, I was very surprised that I was imprisoned.

I did not know that it was forbidden to murder one's wife. How is a person supposed to know about this rule?

As everyone has said, it's up to you to find out about any entry rules applying to you in any country or group of countries you visit, and abide by them. You did overstay in Schengen by a month. Greek authorities let you continue on your return journey, but they could have thrown the book at you - usually a ban from returning to Schengen for 5 years.
The fact none of your friends knew about Schengen rule isn't surprising. They probably have a long-term visa, permanent residency or EU passport so they are exempt from 90-in-180 day rule (strictly speaking, if you have a long-stay visa for one Schengen state, your stay in other Schengen countries is limited to 90-in-180 days, but in practice hardly anyone cares).
Remember Schengen and EU aren't the same - some countries not in EU are in Schengen (Switzerland, Norway, Iceland etc) and some EU countries have opted out of Schengen (e.g. UK, Ireland, so separate rules apply).

So in the future we should be contacting the Lithuanian Law Society of America to read every book in their library prior to visiting? I just love the holier-than-thou attitude some of you people have. The OP was simply asking for help and advice; not asking for a scolding from internet parents. If I go to a country that prohibits passing wind on the street I deserve to go to prison because I didn't read up on all the nation's laws?

This is another example of the people on this board going into attack mode on a post. The OP posed a legitimate question. Yes, some of the comments are to the point--you should know the basic regulations and laws of where you are going to travel. But let's get real, there are all kinds of things that are ok in one place and can land you in jail in another.

Sorry, but the OP's post was outright arrogant and insulting.

Each country on this planet has admission and immigration rules - the USA have some of the strictest on earth (last December at Chicago airport, my son was interrogated for one hour by heavily-armed U.S. immigration officers just because he had an Egyptian stamp in his passport - he had joined us for a Nile cruise).

Foreign visitors are regularly humiliated and harassed by U.S. immigration officers and OP is complaining that the Schengen countries require a visum if someone stays longer than three (!) months! How arrogant can people be?

ok, I'll admit to being as ignorant as the OP about Schengen rules regardless of how many times it's been posted about here. Now you have my attention. And I have what is probably a very stupid or obsessive question. We travel to Europe several times a year, never for anything like 90 days or more but I've just tallied up the amount of time we're likely to be there for all the trips we have scheduled and if we take one more, we could go over the limit--provided the limit is 90 days in a year (not if it's 90 days in 180) Our longest trip is 19 days and these trips are spread over a full year with a month or even two or three in between. Should I be worried about getting a visa?

I'm with traveller1959 - before you visit another country, you check the visa rules. Preferably on the embassy web site. You never know - I figured I didn't need a visa for Australia when I was using my British passport - I was wrong. Fortunately that's a visa you can get at the airport as you board the plane (in Indonesia, no less!), but if I'd been stuck it would have been my own fault.

JulieVikmanis

You are fine. The limit is 90 days in any continuous period of 180 days.

So which is it?

Colonna's too lazy to read the stamp in his or her passport? But still feels entitled to whinge.

Or the useless tossers in the Schengen system can't be bothered stamping passports to tell visitors when they're supposed to get out? But still feel entitled to lecture us for not wanting to have anything to do with their xenophobic - and clearly ill-communicated- stunt.

Either way: thank God (or rather our Government, which most certainly isn't God) we're not in it.

Hi Col,

You are allowed to visit any or all of the Schengen countries of 90 days.

You must leave for 90 days before reutrning for up to 90 days.

The Schengen Agreement was initiated in 1985. The purpose was to make it easier for nationals of countries who needed a visa to get one visa which would be valid in Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, and France. Prior to this they needed to get a separate visa for each country.

Americans do not need a visa for these countries, nor for the other 20 or so countries which now accept the Schengen visa, for stays of up to 90 days. Back in the old days Americans could jump over the border somewhere on the 89th day, get a stamp in the passport, and continue on for another 90 days. Now it's 90 days in a 180 day period for all of the Schengen countries. Ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law, but where is the list of Schengen countries posted that an innocent American can handily find, much less, except for specialized travel sites like Fodor's, how would anybody even know that such a thing as the Schengen zone exists.

It looks like the OP hit the wrong immigration cop, who then had a change of heart. I have overstayed Schengen 3 or 4 times by months and was never advised of the fact as I left Holland.

BTW, my entry stamp at London last month gives me 6 months in the UK, and adds "Employment and access to public funds prohibited." The UK and Ireland are not members of the Schengen Zone.

I'm shocked that one could book travel to Europe for a 4-month stay without ever thinking about visa requirements.

colonna, why did you wait so long to find out about the rules?
You should have contacted the consulate of the country that you are traveling to well in advance of your departure date to sort out details and ask questions.

visas are required for many nationals of other countries (for example, Chinese nationals) who want to travel to the Schengen states. Those of us with American passports are lucky that we have a 90-day visa waiver. It is a privilege, not a right, for US passport holders to be able to travel to Schengen. Having this privilege does not entitle Americans to being completely ignorant about visa policies.

colonna, you're very lucky that you didn't get ARRESTED and DEPORTED by the Foreign Police!

Every guidebook I've ever bought or borrowed from the library, has a section on Visa/Entry requirements. It's not rocket science.

Many people don't know about it, or need to know about it, but the OP was aware of something about it, and did state:

..I read something about it on the board, but didn't change the trip -- I went ahead, with mild trepidation.

There goes that sympathy factor. Sorry

"You should have contacted the consulate of the country that you are traveling to "

Why?

We don't limit visitors to 6 months. As the poster asks: what's the point? And, as spaarne points out, we tell people when they arrive how long they've got. As, BTW, does the US.

It's all very well saying ignorance of the law's no excuse. But governments really do have an obligation to communicate to people.

It really does seem as if Schengen's immigration authorities are too arrogant, lazy or incompetent (or probably all three) to do something as simple as design an entry stamp that tells visitors where they stand.

And then they demand "ever closer union". See why we think they're hopeless?

"my entry stamp at London last month gives me 6 months in the UK" and (from flanneruk) "We don't limit visitors to 6 months" - so which is it?

AND:

Much as I hate being dragged into legal arguments with Sheila, it's simply not true in the EU that "Ignorantia iuris neminem excusat". And not just because Latin's not an official language.

Might have been in Justinian's day: but he's not around any more. The ECJ ruled in March that it's the job of governments to communicate their laws: and on Community matters, an uncommunicated regulation has no validity.

I know about the Schengen requirements because I've been on this board for 10 years. If you aren't a travel fanatic and spend all your time researching travel, it is NOT that obvious. In fact, I just checked two guidebooks. The Rough Guide does list Visas in the index, and it says you can't stay in Greece for more than 90 days. It mentions Schengen but doesn't say what it is, and it is totally not clear that you couldn't move from one country to another. I think that was the OPs point - she knew she couldn't stay in any one country, just didn't know that you couldn't stay in a combination of them for more than 90 days. BTW, I couldn't find anything about Visas in my most recent Fodors (Germany). It may be in there but not in the obvious places I looked, or in the index.

I think a lot of the responses are a whole lot more arrogant than the OP's question (which I do not think was arrogant at all).

In Fodors' guidebooks, the Visa/Entry requirement is listed under "Smart Travel Tips" section in the guidebooks.

I have Fodors, Frommers, DK Eyewitness guidebooks at home (for various European destinations), and while none of them spell out the specific details of the Schengen rules, they all mention the 90-day limit in the "Visa/Entry Requirement" sections.

Since the OP was planning a 4-month trip to Europe, I think he/she should have looked into it before the trip.

No sympathy for the OP since it was known before departure and decided to break the law anyway. Will this show when the OP next attempts to travel to Europe and the passport is scanned? Will the OP be denied entry for previous violation?

I LOVE the self-righteous posters above who are whining about "breaking the law"...some of the same people who tie up multiple hotel rooms because they "can't make a decision" about where they want to stay until the last minute; the same ones who are ALWAYS telling us not to pay parking violation tickets "because you'll probably never go back" and the same ones who are buying R/T airline tickets and "discarding the unused portion" to save money and the same ones who lie about their kids' ages to get free admissions; or perhaps it's that group of people who take half the breakfast buffet along with them from their hotel for lunch. And let's not even START talking about the ways we can get around paying taxes...

Hey, OP...glad it worked out for you and that you made it back from the wild side.

But, in the future, please SPEND EVERY WAKING MINUTE on this board in case some useful information is posted like how your hubby is a hotel snob but insists you flie in cattle car class.

Colonna - I can understand your confusion. Glad it worked out for you.

I think part of the confusion stems from the fact that the rule seems to not be enforced very often.

To tell the truth, the only thing surprising to me about your story was that anyone even noticed or asked about the fact that you had stayed in the Schengen zone longer than the 90 days.

We're US citizens living in Europe for a year and many expats over here have stories of their residence permits being delayed (bureaucratic backlogs), and then they have to travel for business or family emergencies after they've been here 90 days but before the official permits have arrived. And I don't know anyone that has had any actual problem or even been questioned about the situation. Which is not to say it can't happen. I'm just reporting the experience of various people we know.

It happened to us too. We had to go back to the States after we'd been here 90 days, but before our residence documents had come through. We called various government offices asking what we should do. We were basically told by the government officials here "not to worry about it". It seemed like they were trying to tell us, without actually baldly saying so, that the law isn't really enforced except as a way to get rid of people who are considered undesirable for some other reason. So we traveled back to the States and then back to Europe and no one seemed to notice or care that we had been here longer than 90 days. Now that we do have our residence permits, no one has ever asked to see them. Our passports have been looked at a number of times for various reasons as we've traveled to the States and to various European countries but no one has ever flipped through the pages to see when we first arrived or asked us how long we've been here (9 months at this point).

I'm NOT suggesting anyone should ignore the rules. We've done everything by the book as far as we were able and that would certainly be my advice to anyone else.

I'm just pointing out that the enforcement of this rule seems rather inconsistent, and I don't know what the truth of the matter really is in terms of how seriously the issue is viewed by various governments. It's certainly possible it varies from Schengen country to Schengen country. Ah well, I intend to follow the rules so hopefully it is only of academic interest- but it does make me curious about it all.

Thanks to all for all the information and opinions.

I found out about Schengen here in a very convoluted thread about a couch surfer, which I was reading more for entertainment than information. I wasn't asking for sympathy or claiming ignorance of the law (though I was certainly ignorant about it). I'm very grateful to the Greek border agent who excused me.

When I go somewhere for the first time, I check out requirements; none of my European trips in the past required visas, except when I was in school in one country for more than three months.

I know that visitors to the US are not received graciously at some of our airports, and find that shameful.

Just wasn't clear that all the EU countries (or the Schengen countries, which I thought until today were the same but have now learned are not) tightened up, so that the length of time you used to be able to spend in each has now become the length of time you can spend in all. If I have that more or less right.

First of all can I please make it clear that I'm not getting at colonna or anyone.

Secondly, I understand that all the fuss I created (yes, I KNOW it was self inflicted) over my US visit, is making me take the view that id WE have to go through this to visit the US, then what's sauce for the goose.

Thirdly, and notwithstanding the foregoing, how on earth can anyone travel overseas without checking (even if the foreign country's web site and phone lines give rubbish information- down girl!!).

IF I had not looked in a book or at the US Embassy web site, before I went to Cape Cod in 2007, how would I have known I had to leave within 6 months?

if I'd just pitched up I'd have had that form thing to fill in on the plane, and I'd have had my intimidating interview with the man with no neck at Logan airport, how would I have known (actually I just checked and it IS in the smallprint. Mind you no-one told me so my point stands).

And Schengen wasn't introduced "to make it easier for nationals of countries who needed a visa to get one visa which would be valid in Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, and France.". It was introduced to aid free movement for Schengen Nationals.

Michael, your ECJ case is escaping me. Can you give me a reference please?

And, BTW, you might want to get off your high horse on the exit stuff. No-one here checks to see if short term visa holders have left, and I always tell my overstayers to leave with their fingers crossed. At an educated guess 80% of them get out without the officers noticing

I totally understand what you are saying. My partner and I traveled to Europe for four or five months at a time about 7 times before I ever heard of such a thing -- still not sure if it was in effect then. And we did a couple times after we heard of it too. Nothing ever came up.

And I fully understand your question about not knowing about it or wondering who you were to ask. You'd have to know about to ask about it, and why if you had never heard about such a thing would you expect to ask about it? That's almost like going to a restaurant and their telling you they don't provide silverware -- you are supposed to bring your own -- then scolding you for not calling in advance to find out if silverware would be provided. Why would you have called and suspected anything? Just like why would you have checked on time limits about staying in Europe when you had read a dozen guidebooks, booked tickets with a major outline, and nothing had ever been mentioned about it?

NorCalif writes:
We're US citizens living in Europe for a year and many expats over here have stories of their residence permits being delayed (bureaucratic backlogs), and then they have to travel for business or family emergencies after they've been here 90 days but before the official permits have arrived.

I moved to Germany about 15 years ago. When I went into the city hall ("Rathaus" in German, no kidding) to get my residence permit the clerk took my passport and said I would get the permit in a few weeks. I told her that I needed to travel that week. The permit was issued the next day.

flanneruk writes:
It really does seem as if Schengen's immigration authorities are too arrogant, lazy or incompetent (or probably all three) to do something as simple as design an entry stamp that tells visitors where they stand.

Agree. My two entry stamps at Amsterdam (one is hardly legible) simply show the date and an airplane and Schiphol. The Dutch also give you an exit stamp.

Then I looked for my entry stamp to France in December at CDG Paris. Nothing. I guess they are saving ink. No exit stamp either. And no re-entry stamp from the USA Department of Homeland Security Customs and Border Protection when I returned to Detroit. I'm sure I went to Paris, or was I dreaming Paris? London did not give me an exit stamp so officially I might still be in the UK, except that DoHSCBP in Minneapolis stamped me in when I returned, with the wrong date. There is a place on the stamp where the official can write the validity date next to "until," under a line labeled "class." Foreigners might want to check the info to make sure they don't get caught in a serious jam by mistake.

It looks to me that immigration cops on both sides are as flanneruk describes.

sheila,

Interesting remarks, but it would help if you would say where you live. I assume someplace in Europe.

You write:
And Schengen wasn't introduced "to make it easier for nationals of countries who needed a visa to get one visa which would be valid in Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, and France.". It was introduced to aid free movement for Schengen Nationals.

There was already free movement for Schengen Zone nationals, and holders of European residence permits, prior to Schengen. I lived in Holland for two years in the 70s and drove all over Europe with no trouble. Passport control was in effect, but it was still in effect for years after Schengen. Remember, the European Union is not the same as the Schengen Zone.

spaarne, did the customs swipe your passport (magnetic stripe)?

nancicita,

The USA officer put it into a machine which apparently read the info at the bottom of my picture page.

Great ad thread for the state department's website. Go, click on a country and up pops - entry/exit requirements.

TravMimi,

Yeah, sure. The State Department page titled Schengen Fact Sheet is at http://tinyurl.com/pnvd75. Do you see any mention of the 90 in 180 day rule? Nada, nope, and never will be.

Flanneruk's hypothesis is valid all the way up the chain of command.

I live in the UK.

I know there was some free movement but it was not universal amongst Schngen members, or even uniformly applied. Mind you, it still isn't.

(I practice, amongst other things, immigration law. I know about Schengen.

I just don't understand how one can travel abroad without bothering to find out what the visa rules are.

The comment on here I find most remarkable is Otzi's

"So in the future we should be contacting the Lithuanian Law Society of America to read every book in their library prior to visiting"

Nonsense. Absolute nonsense. But I would imagine you check the speed limits before driving a car overseas? Why wouldn't you do the same with your visa?

Ummm. I didn't go to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office website to find out about visa regs for the US. I went to the US Embassy (more's the pity)

I took a look at the French and Italian embassy websites (for the US), and I have to say, the Schengen restriction is not at all obvious on the French site, and seems to be missing entirely on the Italian site, so the OP has a better excuse than I thought. My apologies!

And I'm still interested in one of the original questions - is there any legal way for a US citizen to spend more than 90 days just traveling in Schengen (i.e. not studying or visiting relatives)?

Sheila,

I just don't understand how one can travel abroad without bothering to find out what the visa rules are.

Because for decades Americans had only one visa rule for traveling to Europe - none required. This might have something to do with the tens of thousands of American graves in UK and Europe. The visa rule is still true but is now hampered by the Schengen twist which puts a severe crimp in long stay Americans who know about it and who choose to obey it. A few years ago a Dutch officer at Schiphol told me "you'll never have to worry about it" and so I don't. That won't stand up in your court, but so what.

Otzi was pulling the chain while you were still on the seat.

>>>is there any legal way for a US citizen to spend more than 90 days just traveling in Schengen <<<

Just apply for a visum.

BTW, for a European, it is almost impossible to spend more than 90 days in the USA (unless you are a millionaire).

What I do not like is the tone in this thread. The European countries who signed the Schengen agreement are extremely generous towards foreign visitors. A visitor from abroad can travel freely within the Schengen zone without a visum and without passport controls. This is unique in the world.

The OP had violated rules. And the officials were generous enough to let him/her go without any junctions. Imagine a European traveller in the USA. Would U.S. officials do that?

The OP as well as other posters from the USA are pretty demanding. They seem to complain about the rules. What they probably do not know:

Any visitor to the USA has to waive all his/her rights. After your transatlantic flight, when you are standing in front of the grim immigration officer, you are subject to official arbitrariness. They can deny entry without reason, and there is no point to complain. In fact, you have to pay for your flight back. It happened to enough people.

Oh dear, Colonna, you shouldn't have mentioned that you read the "couch surfing thread". That alone should have let you know you were in for stormy weather, but I'm glad things worked out for you.

Just in case someone wants to revisit Sandy456: http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/something-strange-happend-to-me-at-the-oslo-gardermoen-airport.cfm

"They can deny entry without reason" - any country can do that.

E.g. from the Italian embassy website: "As a rule, aliens do not have a "right" to be granted a visa, but at most a "legitimate interest". " and "The possession of a visa does not give an alien automatic right of entry to Italy, because the border authorities may always refuse entry to an alien who is not in possession of adequate means of subsistence or is unable to provide full details regarding the circumstances of the stay in Italy, or for reasons of security or public policy. " (Although the subsistence requirements look pretty low!)

traveller1959 wrote:
What I do not like is the tone in this thread. The European countries who signed the Schengen agreement are extremely generous towards foreign visitors. A visitor from abroad can travel freely within the Schengen zone without a visum and without passport controls. This is unique in the world.

The European countries who initiated the agreement in Schengen, Luxembourg did it for their own financial interests. To claim altruism for this is absurdism. Bosh to passport controls. Totally irrelevant. Just show the blue book, courtesy of your USA Department of State. Border guards rarely open the blue book, and if they do it is back to you in a half second.

BTW, for a European, it is almost impossible to spend more than 90 days in the USA (unless you are a millionaire).
Relevant? So what?

Hi Colonna! Here's some info for you to check out the next time you travel to Europe. I found it easily on the US Department of State website (http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1765.html). This the the same site that you would check out when renewing your passports and finding information about international travel (know...before you go!).


Hope you'll do your homework the next time! Good luck!


FRANCE
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1116.html

ENTRY/EXIT REQUIREMENTS: France is party to the Schengen agreement. As such, U.S. citizens may enter France for up to 90 days for tourist or business purposes without a visa. A passport is required and should be valid for at least three months beyond the period of stay. Anyone intending to stay more than 90 days must obtain the appropriate visa issued by one of the French Consulates in the U.S., prior to departure for France. This also applies to anyone considering marriage in France. For further information about travel into and within Schengen countries, please see our fact sheet .
A passport is required to enter Monaco. A visa is not required for tourist/business stays up to 90 days in Monaco.
For further information concerning entry requirements for France, travelers may contact the Embassy of France at 4101 Reservoir Road NW, Washington, DC 20007, tel. (202) 944-6000, email: info@ambafrance-us.org, or the French Consulates General in Atlanta, Boston, Chicago, Houston, Los Angeles, Miami, New Orleans, New York, or San Francisco.


BELGIUM
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1044.html

ENTRY/EXIT REQUIREMENTS: Belgium is a party to the Schengen agreement. As such, U.S. citizens may enter Belgium for up to 90 days for tourist or business purposes without a visa. The passport should be valid for at least three months beyond the period of stay. Sufficient funds and a return airline ticket are required. For further details about travel into and within Schengen countries, please see our Schengen fact sheet. For further information concerning entry requirements, contact the Embassy of Belgium at 3330 Garfield Street NW, Washington, DC 20008, telephone (202) 333-6900; or one of the Belgian Consulates General in Atlanta, Los Angeles, or New York. Visit the Embassy of Belgium website for the most current visa information.


ITALY
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1146.html

ENTRY/EXIT REQUIREMENTS: Italy is a party to the Schengen agreement. As such, U.S. citizens may enter Italy for up to 90 days for tourist or business purposes without a visa. The passport should be valid for at least three months beyond the period of stay. For further details about travel into and within Schengen countries, please see our Schengen Fact sheet .

For all other purposes, a visa is required and must be obtained from the Italian Embassy or Consulates before entering Italy. For further information concerning visas and entry requirements for Italy, travelers may contact the Embassy of Italy at 3000 Whitehaven Street NW, Washington, DC 20008, via telephone at (20... or online at http://www.ambwashingtondc.esteri.it/ambasciata_washington, or Italian Consulates General in Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Houston, Los Angeles, Miami, Newark, New Orleans, New York, Philadelphia, or San Francisco, accessible through the Italian Embassy web site.

Americans staying or traveling within Italy for less than three (3) months are considered non-residents. This includes persons on vacation, those taking professional trips, students registered at an authorized school, or persons performing research or independent study.

As of May 2007, under Italian law (http://www.camera.it/parlam/leggi/07068l.htm), all non-residents are required to complete a dichiarazione di presenza (declaration of presence). Tourists arriving from a non-Schengen-country (e.g. the United States) should obtain a stamp in their passport at the airport on the day of arrival. This stamp is considered the equivalent of the declaration of presence. Tourists arriving from a Schengen-country (e.g. France) must request the declaration of presence form from a local police office (commissariato di zona), police headquarters (questura) or their place of stay (e.g hotel, hostel, campgrounds) and submit the form to the police or to their place of stay within eight business days of arrival. It is important that applicants keep a copy of the receipt issued by the Italian authorities. Failure to complete a declaration of presence is punishable by expulsion from Italy. Additional information may be obtained (in Italian only) from the Portale Immigrazione at http://www.portaleimmigrazione.it and the Polizia di Stato at http://www.poliziadistato.it/pds/ps/immigrazione/soggiorno.htm.

Americans staying in Italy for more than three (3) months are considered residents and must obtain a permesso di soggiorno (permit of stay). This includes Americans who will work or transact business and persons who want to simply live in Italy. An application "kit" for the permesso di soggiorno may be requested from one of 14,000 national post offices (Poste Italiane). The kit must then be returned to one of 5,332 designated Post Office acceptance locations. It is important that applicants keep a copy of the receipt issued by the post office. Additional information may be obtained from an Italian immigration website online at http://www.portaleimmigrazione.it/. Within 20 days of receiving the permit to stay in Italy, Americans must go to the local Vital Statistics Bureau (Anagrafe of the Comune) to apply for residency. It generally takes one to two months to receive the certificate of residence (Certificato di Residenza).

Information about dual nationality or the prevention of international child abduction can be found on our web site. For further information about customs regulations, please read our Customs Information sheet.


GREECE
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1127.html

ENTRY/EXIT REQUIREMENTS: Greece is a party to the Schengen agreement. As such, U.S. citizens may enter Greece for up to 90 days for tourist or business purposes without a visa. The passport should be valid for at least three months beyond the period of stay. For further details about travel into and within Schengen countries, please see our Schengen fact sheet. For other entry requirements, travelers should contact the Embassy of Greece at 2221 Massachusetts Avenue NW, Washington, DC 20008, telephone (202) 939-5800, or Greek consulates in Atlanta, Boston, Chicago, Houston, Los Angeles, Tampa, New York, and San Francisco, and Greek embassies and consulates around the world.

Holders of official or diplomatic passports visiting Greece as tourists must obtain visas prior to arrival. Visit the Embassy of Greece web site for the most current visa information


And here is some information that might be useful for anyone who is interested in immigrating or working in Europe:

http://www.workpermit.com/european_union/european_union.htm

For non-EU nationals wishing to work in the European Union

During 2007 and 2008, the European Union has proposed and begun development of a work permit scheme that would allow citizens from outside of the EU to enter the EU for skilled work. Currently, the possibility of this scheme being approved seems good, but estimates are that it will not be available until at least 2011.


The "Schengen Agreement" (formally known as the Schengen Accord) is a treaty between many European countries that allows exchange of law enforcement data between their agencies via a centralized database. The treaty is not restricted to European Union countries only, so non-EU countries (such as Norway and Iceland) also are part of the zone.

A visitor who qualifies for a Schengen visa may travel throughout all countries that are signatories to the Accord. Switzerland and Cyprus are likely to become signatories in the very near future.

Please Note: Some EU countries - such as the United Kingdom and Ireland - are NOT part of the Schengen Zone, so a Schengen visa will NOT allow entry into those countries! Romania and Bulgaria might qualify within "several years," but these newest EU States are currently struggling to comply with the requirements to qualify for inclusion into the Schengen Zone.

Countries in the Schengen area include: Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, and Sweden. In December 2007, the following countries were added: the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovakia, and Slovenia. Visitors to these countries who need a visa should consider a Schengen visa when traveling, especially for business purposes.


Entry into and travel throughout Europe with a Schengen Visa

It is important to note that the (standard) maximum allowable stay in Schengen countries is 90 days for all member countries within any six-month period. This means that, for example, if a business visitor with a Schengen visa enters Germany on 01 April and stays for 30 days (until 30 April), they may only spend up to 60 more days (for a total of 90) in all Schengen countries before 01 October, including re-entry to Germany. In exceptional cases visas can also be issued for periods of one or two years.

Schengen visas should be obtained from the consulate of the member country where a visitor plans entry into the Schengen zone and is likely to spend most of his or her time.

A multiple-entry Schengen visa allows you to enter into the country which issues you the visa, and you may then travel freely throughout all Schengen countries. It is assumed that you will spend most of your time in the country which issued the visa to you, but it is not a requirement. Some countries are much easier to obtain a Schengen from, in practice, although the process is supposed to be standardized.

It is therefore possible, for another example, to obtain a Schengen visa via the Italian or Spanish consluates, enter that country, and then immediately travel to France and spend most of your time there. However, countries which notice this practice may in the future deny a Schengen application to people they feel are a risk of abusing the intent of Schengen visas.

In the example just described, Sweden or Hungary would have the right to deny an application if they wish to, while other countries such as Denmark or the Czech Republic retain the right to grant permission, if they wish. Each signatory to the Schengen Accord may decide to grant or deny an application to a person based upon that individual's historical record of behavior and travel in any other member country. So, it is generally advisable to avoid this practice as much as possible to avoid unnecessary inconvenience.

In December 2007 the Schengen Zone was significantly expanded to include many new EU countries. There are also plans to expand by several more countries in the near future. This news item includes some related Schengen information that will likely be of interest: http://www.workpermit.com/news/2007-10-30/europe/european-schengen-zone-border-expansion.htm



(please note that the information above is for reference only -- check with each country's individual consulate for details before travel)

If you are going to visit a foreign country it is up to you to find out the appropriate rules. If you're not using a travel agent - al you need to do is ask - here - or on the web sites of any of the countries involved.

And you can;t get a visa or extensions or anything else while you're there. A Schengen tourist (non-visa from the US) entry is limited to 90- days total. Full stop. If you want to visit longer you need to get the appropriate visa (whatever that may be) in the US before you leave.

What you did is the equivalent of an Italian (or whoever) just coming to the US and thinking they could stay as long as they feel like it without getting any sort of approval in advance.

You are VERY lucky you weren't fined and banned from Schengen for years.

But note that neither the country-specific pages quoted above, NOR the Schengen "fact" sheet linked from them, say anything about the 90 in 180 requirement! Thanks, US State Dept!

nytraveler, I think you are missing the point. Why would you ask randomly about a rule of how long you can stay unless you already knew there was such a rule. If you have read a dozen travel books and none of them even mention it, why would you expect such a rule exists and why would anyone ever think to check on it? Would you also haphazardly ask if there are rules about being able to speak certain words in the native language? Or being able to recite the national anthem of the country you are visiting? Like those things there is no reason you would ask about a rule unless you already knew it was a rule.

If I'm not mistaken (but I may be) when someone from Italy gets a visa to the US they are told about any requirements about how long they may stay. If when going to Europe one is told there is an issue, then sure you'd check it out.

If you went to California would you check to see if there is a rule for how long you can stay there? Perhaps there is such a rule, but why would you ask unless you suspected there was?

NeoPatrick, if this was 10 years ago, I'd agree with you, but times have changed and new rules about biometric passports and demands by governments for more and more personal data before INTERNATIONAL travel have been on the news everywhere.

Anyone who still thinks that in this day and age, when international visitors to the U.S. have ever more hoops to jump through, that it would be all tra la la nothing to worry about for Americans heading overseas for several months is either incredibly naive, clueless or simply asking for trouble.

And to equate visa rules for extended visits with learning national anthems...well that's a nonsense comparison and you know it.

>> If you have read a dozen travel books and none of them even mention it, why would you expect such a rule exists and why would anyone ever think to check on it?

I have the DK travel guides and they all mention specifically about the 90/180 visa waiver rule.


>> If you went to California would you check to see if there is a rule for how long you can stay there?

Yes, I would check for rules because I'm not a resident and I realize that laws vary from state to state, and certainly country to country. It may be legal to drink at 19 in Canada but illegal in Michigan. It may be legal to purchase tobacco at 18 in California but illegal to do so in Alabama , Alaska, New Jersey, Utah, and Nassau, Suffolk, and Onondaga counties in New York.

If I cannot explain why I as a US passport holder am exempt from a Schengen visa like other non-EU nationals (for example, Indian or Chinese passport holders), then I'd certainly research carefully and find out why. If I have heard of the word, "Schengen", I'd find out what that means and if it involves me as a traveler. It's just part of being a prepared and responsible traveler. Does this sound fair?

>> Perhaps there is such a rule, but why would you ask unless you suspected there was?

Well the way I think of it is like this: I know that many non-US citizens have to enter the US with a visa, so what specifically makes me exempt from it? I would want to know the exact rules so that I could understand what my status is abroad and what laws protect (or do not protect me) against.

"Know before you go" ... no surprises at the end...

It won't hurt!

<<a slightly outdated guidebook wouldn't have had it, and I didn't see it in the paper.>>

It would have to be a lot more than "slightly outdated." I'm traveling at the moment and don't have my library of travel books at hand, but it's my recollection that every guidebook I've owned that was published after 9/11 dealt with the issue of how long you could stay in a country legally, plus a whole lot of other information about passport control and security issues.

I fail to understand how anyone these days would travel to another country without fully examining the visa requirements in advance. Just knowing what it takes to get OUT of the USA through security would make any sane person wonder what it would take to get either in or out of any other country, I should think. And the assumption that you can just go somewhere in a foreign land and stay as long as you like is, well, really naive.

The OP was very lucky.

Visas will be required for US citizens, should the 3 days pre-registration requirement for Europeans from visa waiver countries on the ESTA system be enforced.

It this momnet pre-registration can be at any time, even when the website claims it would need to be 3 days in advance.

At this moment I have to register the address where I intend to stay 3 times, to be able to go to the US without visa.

1.) On the website of the airline or with the agent at check-in.
2) On the ESTA system on the internet
3) On a green piece of cardboard when entering.

If a german would design such a stu*pid system, he would be fired. And you folks complain.

Putting to one side the 'responsibility' aspect of this case, I doubt whether the poster has been 'lucky', except in avoiding a fine or some other immediate penalty. I assume that the passport was scanned on entry to the Schengen zone, and it was certainly repeatedly scanned on exit. Surely that means that such details are now in the Schengen records, and MIGHT surface next time the poster tries to enter Schengen. What are the possible consequences if a previous overstay is flagged? Does it depend once again on the goodwill of the immigration officer, or is there some set procedure? Anyone know?

Again, thanks to all. I would like to know the answers to adeben's questions above, if there are any answers.

I will write to the State Department and suggest that they revise their country information to reflect Schengen regulations, so that one immediately understands that the 90 days applies to ALL time spent in ALL Schengen countries, not each Schengen country.

One last question-- several people suggested that I should have gotten a visa. Since US citizens don't need a visa (and since the Schengen visa carries the same 90-out-of-180 restriction anyway), what visa would that be? If I weren't hoping to be in any country for more than 6 weeks, and in most of them for far less time?

If it's flagged, you'll be banned from returning for the next 5 years. Consider yourself lucky, the fine could have been 1200€

All this nonsense about not knowing is just that - nonsense. Any US citizen traveling out of the country has the obligation to figure out what they need by a bit of research. Passport? Vaccinations? Visa? It's not rocket science. Even the airline websites tell you it's your responsibility to have everything in order.

>>>>logos999 on May 18, 09 at 09:06 AM
If it's flagged, you'll be banned from returning for the next 5 years. Consider yourself lucky, the fine could have been 1200€<<<<

With passports scanned these days, I'm wondering if the OP isn't already flagged even though the she wasn't fined. I would assume their software would make it pop up that she overstayed next time she attempts to travel, but maybe the system isn't that sophisticated.

kybourbon wrote: "With passports scanned these days, I'm wondering if the OP isn't already flagged even though the she wasn't fined. I would assume their software would make it pop up that she overstayed next time she attempts to travel, but maybe the system isn't that sophisticated."

It's possible, I suppose, but I think it unlikely. In general, European states are a little less obsessed with minor breaches than are US immigration authorities.

Colonna,

In answer to your last post, if planning the same sort of trip again, you must apply for a visa from any Schengen country you plan to visit--logically, it should be the first country, although I am not sure that is required but never take my anecdotal information as fact, check the official wording.

Using France as an example, you would apply to the nearest consulate to your US residence, stating your plans, duration of stay, etc.

They will advise you what is required, but typically the key requirements will be evidence of ability to support yourself (if retired, US social security statement and/or investment statement, pension statement, for example)and evidence of current full health insurance coverage (the last time I checked a confirmation letter from your insurer was required; a photocopy of an insurance card was not acceptable) along with other documentation. This requires forward planning as it's not an overnight turnaround.

Another option is to begin, end or bookend your trip in non-Schengen countries so that your trip might last 4 or 5 months with the middle three months being in Schengen countries. This is entirely legal and would not require a Schengen visa.

In Germany, if you overstay and they notice it at the airport, they will take your address and send you the paperwork. You can then explain from home why you did it. If you never return, you can ignore whatever fines they impose without problems. I've heard that from next year on fines for overstayers will be "harmonized" inside Schengen. Whatever "harmonized" is supposed to mean.

Am I right that the UK is not part of the Schengen, and if you make an overnight trip in the middle of a longer European stay to the UK, then your "time limit" in the Schengen starts all over again?

" then your "time limit" in the Schengen starts all over again?" No. My understanding is that it's 90 days in a rolling 180.

Agree with Thursdaysd--90 days in a rolling 180.

No Neo. You can spend 180 days in the UK because they are not Schengen. Your time limit for Schengen is 90 days in a 180 day time period. Going to another non-Schengen country does not restart it. If you have been in a Schengen country for 90 days then you have to wait until day 181 to return.

It used to be that one could go outside Schengen to "reset" the 90 day visa waiver. That's no longer the case (as has been reiterated on this forum for a million times!!!).

It's 90 days within a total of 180 days. Spend 90 days in Schengen, you must wait another 90 days before coming back in.

For those of us who are non-EU who have traveled to Europe multiple times, this is like beating a dead horse.


>> One last question-- several people suggested that I should have gotten a visa. Since US citizens don't need a visa (and since the Schengen visa carries the same 90-out-of-180 restriction anyway), what visa would that be? If I weren't hoping to be in any country for more than 6 weeks, and in most of them for far less time?

Colonna, this is a question that you have to ask the consulate. They will ask you for your purpose of stay and you'd have to explain why you want to stay beyond the 90-day visa waiver period. Then they will advise you on the type of visa you would need for the extended period of stay in Schengen. Note that you cannot just say, "because I love Europe and I want an extended holiday." Like Cathinjoetown says, they will ask you to produce proof of financial support (you must bring copies of your bank statements proving you have XXX USD in the bank), full health insurance coverage for all of the countries you will be traveling to (including repatriation coverage), proof of your place of residence (your apartment address, lease contract proving that you have a place to stay), official passport-sized photos, and various other documents (if it's an application for a student Schengen visa then you'd need an official letter from the school saying you have been admitted and enrolled full time). Also, all letters will likely be required to be translated into the native language of the country. Some countries require the translated pages to be officially notarized and must be within X days of travel. And finally, you must pay for the visa application regardless of whether or not they approve your application. Also, check if the consulate requires payment in cash. If you don't have sufficient cash with you to pay for the fee, you might have to come back another day and start the queue all over again. This may vary from consulate to consulate and you must know which one to go to apply -- depending on what your point of initial entry to Schengen is, and which country you'll be spending most of your time in.


The Schengen visa application process is not something to be looked upon lightly. Don't expect to get your visa on your first visit. It's likely that there is some paperwork you have missing and they'll send you back to get it sorted out. And don't expect the people at the consulate to be friendly and helpful, because they have to deal with paperwork like this every single day.


I got my Schengen visa for France a few years back after three visits to the French consulate. I had all my paperwork filled out, bank statements, etc., and yet there was always something that they found that was insufficient. It's just bureaucracy and something that you'd have to get used to IF you want a visa.


If you aren't planning to work in the Schengen zone, it's probably better for you just visit for 90 days and not bother with getting a visa. Do NOT go over this waiver period and you'll be fine. Regardless of what you hear about overstaying a visa waiver period being no big deal, or that the law is confusing and not really enforced or not well-announced, or the notion that Americans don't really have to follow the rules, or that the customs officials sometimes don't check, or they don't stamp your passport...all of this nonsense...it doesn't give you an excuse to not protect yourself or be naive about it.

But I'm sure you're not naive since you're here on this forum asking questions!


Remember, it's a privilege (not a right) for US passport holders to be able to stay in the Schengen zone for 90/180 without a visa. We are visitors and need to respect their laws just as they do when they enter the U.S. Be informed, ask questions, and understand what laws cover (or don't cover) you as an American abroad.


Know...before you go...no surprises.

I'm surprised that the OP didn't check for the simple reason that there are countries (for instance, Russia) where Americans, yes, even Americans, need a visa to enter. And it has to be obtained in advance and is a PIA.

Once cannot simply gallop around the globe and assume you can enter eny country freely, with no restrictions. The US has plenty of restrictions on entry of foreign nationals - why be surprised that other countries do too?

Scanning passport does not record your entry or exit into the Schengen area in a way that is accessible to all Schengen external border points like airports, land border and sea ports, i.e. into Schengen Information System (SIS). All that SIS does is to flag up alerts entered by member states about those individuals who have been denied entry into Schengen or deported from it, and fugitives on the run. It also has record of stolen or lost passports and national IDs, so when such a document is used it will be immediately detected. Plus stolen properties (e.g. valuable art). It is possible that a Schengen state may record entry and exit of non-EU travellers within its territory, but such record is incomplete as they may have entered or left the country through another Schengen state (there is no routine passport checks within Schengen) and such national record isn't shared.

So to answer adeben's and OP's concerns, Schengen Information System doesn't keep a record of entry and exit of non-EU travellers, but individual country may, and if, for example, there is a record of your entry into Greece 4 months ago as you try to leave Greece, you may have to explain how you've only stayed in Schengen for 3 months - such as travel tickets and hotel receipts to show you have spent a month outside the area, like UK, Ireland, certain countries in E Europe and N Africa. The Schengen Border Manual lays down that it's up to the travellers to demonstrate they have not broken the rules, rather than the border officials to prove they have contravened.

alec - from the first post it looks like the OP entered Schengen in France and left from Greece, and it's obvious from that post that the immigration official in Greece was seeing something wrong.

WHen I was kid I lied to get into foreign countries about how much money I had, where I was going, whether or not I was going to work, etc. It was a very long time ago, but I'm sorry that the world has gotten more restrictive in this regard for traveling Americans -- and that well-heeled tourists have become so nyah-nyah about kids winging it on a dime, trying have adventures and see the world.

So there.

I think colonna IS sandy-the-couch-surfer.

thursdaysd

Maybe from airline ticket or reservation record, even an entry stamp from France (passports are still sometimes stamped) but not from Schengen Information System. The sort of record kept on SIS is strictly regulated by EU and doesn't contain entry and exit details of every non-EU traveller. Such a system would be far too complex and costly to maintain with Schengen now covering greater part of Europe.

Alec - so you're suggesting that when the French border agents scan in passport data, it's only available to the French? That's not at all my reading of the purpose of the Schengen Information System, nor of the central system that the national systems connect to.

And how do you account for: "the exit control man scanned my passport repeatedly, asked me when I'd arrived in a "member country,"..."

On a trip two years ago, I entered Schengen via CDG airport, Paris, and exited two months later at Frankfurt airport. The officer at Frankfurt remarked in passing that I had entered at Paris. My passport was NOT stamped either on entry or exit, but it was scanned on each occasion. From this experience, I assume that the information scanned at Paris was available to immigration official at Frankfurt. Additionally, when my passport was stolen in Nice, France, in 2000, it was replaced at the consulate in Frankfurt the next day, and information about my arrival in Schengen was somehow retrieved and scanned into the replacement passport.
I suspect the Schengen system is a bit more widespread and sophisticated than Alec is suggesting.

I don't know how in the cases quoted, your entry record was transmitted to other Schengen states, but this isn't how SIS operates at the moment. France is know to be liberal in sharing its database with other states - other countries seem more restrictive.
European Commission has proposed at the end of 2007 to start implementing entry-exit control at the external borders from 2015, but there are still enormous technical difficulties to overcome. The updated SIS called SIS2 is already overdue, so much so that newer Schengen states including Switzerland had to adopt an interim IT system to comply with Schengen requirements.
You can read about EC proposals at http://www.privacyinternational.org/issues/borders/eu/CCE-Entry_Exit.pdf

You've been disqualified, sorry. Try somewhere else.

Yeah, the OP should have checked the time before s(he) went but give me a break. Overstaying the visa is hardly the Crime of the Century. We have PLENTY of people that overstay their visas here in the USA and unlike what "Traveler 1959" thinks, we are often quite lax with this. Also, "Traveler 1959" seems to be upset and has an arrogant attitude of entitlement when he complains that entrance into the USA is arbitrary. That is true in ANY country which can refuse and send you home for any reason. I'll also add that to the non-americans complaining that they are supposedly treated so poorly, it goes both ways. I've no doubt that on occasion some immigration officers might be rude or unfair but that is equally true in every other country and plenty of americans have gotten poor treatment by some jerk in another country too.

The issue here isn't really the fact that the OP overstayed his/her visa waiver period...it's the fact that s/he had no idea why s/he was stopped by an immigration officer...and clueless when it comes to understanding Schengen zone's restrictions.

Of course it's not the Crime of the Century to overstay the 90-period visa waiver period. BUT...it's pretty ridiculous to hear that the OP traveled to the Schengen zone without even checking if there are any restrictions (despite admitting that s/he has read the many posts on this forum regarding the Schengen visa). Even more amazing is the fact that the OP seemed surprised that s/he was stopped by an immigration officer on the way back to the US.


The OP's remark, "How is a person supposed to know about this rule? Friends who live in Europe had never heard of it, though I guess they would have no reason to." blatantly shows some degree of ignorance.

It's this whole notion of "Americans are exempt from the rules" , "It's no big deal because I have a US Passport" , and "I'm American so how should I know?" that raises eyebrows here on the forum, simply because there are so many seasoned travelers who know better and could offer good advice to the less-informed travelers.


It may seem like some people have an arrogant attitude here, but I don't think it's really true. This thread raised many voices from people who have been a part of Fodor's Forums for a very long time, and that certainly isn't because there is a need to affirm a sense of entitlement or to be arrogant/bash on new travelers. I'd rather see the opinions and advice of the many posters here as enlightening, frank, and helpful.

<<< how would anybody even know that such a thing as the Schengen zone exists. >>>

By looking in every European guidebook published in the last decade perhaps?

Let me try to explain to the young fellow. There is a certain difference between a plain insuling comment and a sarcastic remark. The former is just that, insuling and nonsensical, the later has some truth in it, it has a point and is brought in a way some people can relate to,(in very different ways ) because it refers to someting they feel is part of their behaviour or way of life or part of that of the group they believe they belong to.

You say: "Those no good for noting Brits should keep their stu*pid towels off OUR sunbeds." This does refer to some differences between our friendly neighbours on that fu*ing island and us brave teutonic tribes that know we have a right to those sunbeds, because we paid for them. And even it we didn't threy still belong to us.

I don't think you will understand, but there is still hope. . There's always hope, isn't it.

reOGOs999-"There is a certain difference between a plain insuling comment and a sarcastic remark. The former is just that, insuling and nonsensical, the later has some truth in it"

Wrong, both a plain and a sarcastic comment are insulting and both may or may not be true. Yours are usually typical anti-american drivel as you obviously single americans out constantly. Really, get over you obsession Logos9999, if you hate America, stay away, nobody here cares including me.

re:nanacita-The issue here isn't really the fact that the OP overstayed his/her visa waiver period...it's the fact that s/he had no idea why s/he was stopped by an immigration officer...and clueless when it comes to understanding Schengen zone's restrictions. It's this whole notion of "Americans are exempt from the rules" , "It's no big deal because I have a US Passport" , and "I'm American so how should I know?" that raises eyebrows here on the forum"

I couldn't disagree more. Like I said, yes the OP or anyone should check before hand and shouldn't be surprised if they fail to do so that an immigration officer stops them. However, people here are way over reacting. As far as this notion of "americans being exempt" or "it's no big deal as I have a US passport" the OP never implied this and I don't know any americans that feel this way. That is absurd. The only people on this forum that I found to be arrogant were two Brits complaining because the US asks them questions upon entering and can refuse anyone, well so can any country. As I said, there are many people around the world that overstay their visas and most aren't americans. We have plenty of people overstaying their visa here in the USA, probably more than anyone, and if they do it by a little bit and go home, well they shouldn't do it, but it's not a huge deal.

good points, corli, good points.

corli33 wrote: "We have plenty of people overstaying their visa here in the USA, probably more than anyone, and if they do it by a little bit and go home, well they shouldn't do it, but it's not a huge deal."

It often is a huge deal. I have come across people who are barred from the US for five years because they overstayed their visas, sometimes by a relatively small amount. I have heard stories of people who didn't even overstay, but whose exit documentation was not in order, and they are also barred.

yes, I know a Dane who is barred from the US a year or two just because he overstayed his Visa by a couple months. He is an employed professional, it's not because they think he is a danger or going to be on welfare, it's just the law. this just happened last summer and he got deported and is banned from returning to the US for at least a year, I think. He cannot even get a business visa to come to do business (and he works for a multinational company who is not pleased but partly they had stupid lawyers who weren't keeping track of him, and partly he was just being stupid).

"It often is a huge deal. I have come across people who are barred from the US for five years because they overstayed their visas"

I meant it's not a huge deal in my opinion and that people were way overreacting by bashing the poster. Most people who overstay their visa here in the USA aren't pursued or get into trouble but that doesn't mean it never happens. Yes, at times,immigration officers will come down hard on someone. The same holds true for americans in other countries. There are americans who have been barred from the EU/UK for five years for minor infractions. The OP could have been barred from the EU or Schengen or whatever for 5 years and some americans would have been. It depends upon the immigration officer in question.

So does that mean that it's not a huge deal if it doesn't happen to us, but it is a huge deal if it does happen?

Perhaps that's why immigration officers / foreign police are now enforcing the rules...paying more attention to people who overstay the visa waiver...so that we'll stop shrugging off a law that says it's illegal to overstay 90/180?

"So does that mean that it's not a huge deal if it doesn't happen to us, but it is a huge deal if it does happen?"

In the sense of personally, yes if one is barred for 5 years and they wish to return to that country, it's going to be a big deal for that person. If a person is just given a warning or has no desire to return to that country, then for them it is not a big deal in terms of consequences. When I say not a huge deal, I meant the accusations of arrogance and bashing of the OP. I thought people were overreacting. A lot of people overstay by a little bit and I don't think it means they are arrogant or awful. I didn't mean that it is something one should do because of couse one shouldn't nor do I mean that there can't be more serious consequences because there can.

Quick clarification question:

If I depart the Schengen zone after 90 days, but elect to spend more time and ultimately fly home to the US from a non-Schengen country (i.e. Turkey), I will not be breaking any rules, correct?

You can spend 90 out of any 180 days in the Schengen zone. Once your 90 days are up you have to wait 90 days before you can re-enter Schengen.
OP was lucky. They are tightening up on the entry procedures in many countries and soon all Schengen countries will be enforcing the rules.

Sorry- I meant if I elect to spend more time outside of the Schengen area, not leave it and then come right back. I would get out before my 90 days are up and travel to non-Schengen countries, and then plan to fly back to the states from one of them. I'm not trying to dodge the system or anything; quite the contrary, I want to make sure I'm not breaking the rules by flying back from Istanbul or even Dublin or London after my 90 days are up.

Kyliebaby3
I can't see how you are breaking (Schengen?) rules by flying straight back home from a non-Schengen country. After 90 days in Schengen, you are leaving Schengen zone and not returning within 90 days - the fact that you are flying home is irrelevant. After 90 days outside Schengen (including the US), you can then go back to Schengen for further 90 days, and so on.

Logos..unless it has changed, it is not NECESSARY to fill out that portion of the ESTA about the address.. you CAN but it was OPTIONAL info previously.


However, one should know the EXACT address of the hotel or residence when entering the USA or G.Britain. (voice of experience)