THIS IS A CONTINUATION OF MY MORE DETAILED THREAD ON SCENIC SWISS TRAINS AND SWISS TRAINS IN GENERAL:

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threadselect.jsp?fidAuthor: .com/forums/threadselect.jsp?fidv

Thank you for this. I've only been on a few of your Top 16 but will save this list in hope of getting back to Switzerland some day. I was an au pair there about 30 years ago; have been back 3 times since. Great memories--the Jungfrau in particular. Thanks again.

i am still waiting to take one of these swiss trips..

i will certainly use your advice, among that of other swiss posters.

thank you for taking the time!

Hello Pal, how I would love to be taking some of your listed train trips right now. I have Italian friends in Italy that try to take a train trip in Switzerland once a year but I don't know which train routes that have gone on except for the Bernina Express.

I too love trains and just wish we had good train service here in California.

Will you be going to Switzerland this year?

Thanks for the thanks. LoveItaly - not sure - i will be going to Europe as usual but have been going in January and February lately and as i am not a skiier maybe will only pass thru Switzerland - i'd like to experience the least scenic line in Switzerland the new long tunnel under the Lotschberg Pass - that goes in tunnel from Fruitigen to Visp i believe.

I too am thinking of going to Italy in winter Pal. I have never done that. But perhaps the airfares will be lower (said with crossed fingers) and there will not be the crowds. I hope you can make your trip to Switzerland and the train trip! Best regards.

LoveItalia: I've gone to Italy two winters now in a row and really liked it - yes cheap air fares and i got nice hotels near the rome and florence train stations for about 35 euros - en suite with breakfast - rooms would cost 85 euros in other seasons.
Now back to Scenic Swiss Trains and the fantastic BERNINA EXPRESS.

Back Soon.

Travelling to Switzerland in May 2009 and at this stage using the rail network arriving from Paris in Geneva and eventually moving on to Austria from Zurich. It's the bit in the middle that is flexible - my husband would like to travel on at least one of the mountain railways. Do you have one that you would recommend for May and easily accessible from Geneva or Lucerne?

THE GOLDEN PASS SCENIC TRAIN
Since Susanne07 asked about scenic trains she could fit in on her itinerary i'll start this coverage of Scenic Swiss Trains with the Golden Pass route between Montreux and Lake Geneva via Interlaken to Lucerne, which rolls through some of Switzerland's most bucolic scenery, if not thru high mountains like some other rail lines do.
The first portion includes a dramatic zigzag climb of hundreds of feet from Lake Geneva thru vineyards and then trekking thru picture-postcard Alpine valleys with high peaks in the distance to Interlaken, going along the shores of placid Lake Thun just before Interlaken.
From Interlaken, the train slugs along the shores of idyllic Lake Brienz to Meiringen, where the train reverses to climb over the steep Brunig Pass, before descending along dreamy Alpine lakes and valleys to finally hugging the shore of Lake Lucerne to Lucerne.
The Meiringen-Lucerne portion to me is the most dramatic as this entails a narrow-gauge mountain climbing train where the wheels continually squeal as the cars negotiate tight curves. This part is a cog railway, meaning that the train employs a cog wheel on the steepest climbs in order to gain added traction that is also used descending to increase breaking.
(Therefore a 'cog railway' is a real mountain railway.)

But if you are thinking of 'mountain trains1 as those few that go to mountain tops (like the one from Lucerne up Mount Pilatus, the Jungfraubahn to the Jungfraujoch or the Gornergrat Railway up above Zermatt, then this is not that type of more breathtaking mountain railways like those that climb to mountain peaks.

But in other regards the Golden Pass to me is better because of the varied and constantly pleasant scenery and the rather dramatic up and down over the Brunig Pass.

But if you have time break your journey in Interlaken and take the mountain trains from it to Grindelwald, Lauterbrunnen or Wengen, from where you can also take the Jungfraubahn and another day take the rest of the Golden Pass route to Lucerne over the Brunig Pass.

TBC - More on the Golden Pass - the official Golden Pass trains with observation cars and vaunted VIP seats and itinerary planning with the Golden Pass.

Any questions will be happily entertained???

GOLDEN PASS DETAILS

There are official 'Golden Pass' trains that run the route all the way from Montreux to Interlaken to Lucerne (necessitating two changes of train because of track width differences - in Zweisimmen and in Interlaken-Ost. (Ideal to break you journey at Interlaken-Ost and head for Grindelwald, Lauterbrunnen or Wengen and the fantastic Berner Oberland)

Reservations seem to be only required on the Montreux-Zweisimmen portion but should be made to guarantee seats in the Observation Cars (larger windows and glass ceilings) and certainly for the VIP seats (first class only, these are seats right next to the driver so you think you are driving the train. There are only a few VIP seats on each train - some in the front and some in the back - book very early!

the Montreux-Zweisimmen portion has unique revolving seats, at least in first class.

In addition there are regular trains running about hourly over the whole route - same appetizing views and large enough windows - no reservations even possible.

Swiss and Eurailpasses are valid the whole route.

reservations can be made at www.swisstravelsystem.com (which has a link to the Golden Pass web site or at any Swiss rail station or thru RailEurope in U.S. - i always recommend BETS www.budgeteuropetravel.com for their personal service and expertise IME. Reservations for observation cars are often easily made in Switzerland IME but VIP are typically sold out months in advance.

I have written a much more thorough look at the Golden Pass route and reservations, etc. on my much more detailed thread Palenque's Scenic Swiss Trains (along with valuable inputs of others!)
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threadselect.jsp?fidAuthor: .com/forums/threadselect.jsp?fidv

THE BERNINA PASS TRAIN LINE: Switzerland's most scenic regular rail line.

And one of Europe's most scenic rail rides IMO - for a real train that actually takes you somewhere - not just up to mountain tops and back.

The Bernina Pass line begins in St Moritz and slowly climbs, with occasional use of cogs i believe, up to the summit of the Bernina Pass before slowly descending thru a rather lush semi-tropical valley to the Italian border town of Tirano, its terminus.

The fantastic scenery comes near and around the actual pass - by the Alp Grum and Bernina Ospiz stations, where a popular walk goes to a glacier on the other side of a pristine glacial lake. It's popular to walk between the two stations just a few miles apart.

The Top of the World Scenery is unparalleled IMO on any other 'regular' Swiss train and really rivaled by few in Europe.

For a much much more detailed look at my other Scenic Swiss Trains thread: http://www.fodors.com/forums/threadselect.jsp?fidAuthor:.com/forums/threadselect.jsp?fidv

NEXT - PRACTICAL DETAILS OF THE BERNINA PASS ROUTE:
Official Bernina Express trains
Regular normal regional trains
Open-Air Cars
Connections and Itinerary Planning

Pal, the Bernina trains do not use cogs at all. That's what is so special. The gradient is up to 7% and so it is the steepest non-cog railway in Europe.

Keep the info coming!

I.

Susanne07 writes: "Travelling to Switzerland in May 2009 and at this stage using the rail network arriving from Paris in Geneva and eventually moving on to Austria from Zurich. It's the bit in the middle that is flexible - my husband would like to travel on at least one of the mountain railways."

Years ago, we took the Arlberg Orient Exprés Zurich to Innsbruck in late-May. The scenery was awesome! Skiers were still on the slopes at Saint Anton & other ski resorts north of the route and there were numerous waterfalls, too many to count, along the south side of the route.
I would equate that 4.5 hours to a trip thru Disney's Wonderful World of Color

Just to add to PalenQ's wonderful thread on Swiss trains, on the Bernina Pass section, there is a lovely "historic train" walk from Preda to Bergün that follows the train line for most of the way. It took us roughly 2 1/2 hours at a moderate pace, lots of cows, flower filled meadows, gushing streams with little wooden bridges and those fabulous viaducts. We even managed to be underneath one when the train went over. Great photo opportunities too.

Also the walk from Filisur down to the famous Landwässer Viaduct, with perfect timing you can see the Bernina Express cross the viaduct and enter or leave the tunnel.

Maudie, Nedsireland and Ingo thanks for the notes

Ingo - the Bernina Pass train line is said to be the only train line that goes up and over the Alps from north to south - all others tunnel under the peaks. That it does not use cogs is all the more amazing. Thanks for that.

OFFICIAL BERNINA EXPRESS TRAINS
A few times a day there are special tourist-oriented trains named the Bernina Express that run between St Moritz and Tirano and also from Chur to St Moritz/Pontresina and Tirano

There are also about hourly regular trains that run the same route with, obviously, the same scenery. The Bernina Express trains however have a hostess, fancy doilies on the seats and some panoramic observation cars - they are also marginally faster since they do not stop at every tiny station like regular trains do.

Reservations are mandatory on the official Glacier Expresses and can be hard to make (since often groups book up many cars) - a discussion of pros and cons on regular vs official Glacier Express appears on my much longer thread referenced above, as well as how to make reservations. Regular trains do not even accept reservations and you can always board and usually find ample empty seats IME

On regular trains you, in summer have some open-air cars that to me were a real thrill - riding a platform basically thru such scintillating scenery (again someone provided great details on which trains these run in the longer Scenic Swiss Trains thread).

TBC:
BERNINA ITINERARY PLANNING - rail links at Tirano, Italy and St Moritz - Majola Pass bus to Lake Como and Lugano; Bernina Express bus from Tirano to Lugano (and Lake Como)

BERNINA ITINERARY PLANNING
- rail links at Tirano, Italy and St Moritz - Majola Pass bus to Lake Como and Lugano; Bernina Express bus from Tirano to Lugano (and Lake Como).

Incorporating the Bernina Pass trains into an itinerary can be challenging due to the relative remoteness of the area from where most folks are going. It's in far southeastern Switzerland - (3.5 hrs from Zurich/Lucerne) and a long all day ride from Brig-Zermatt area via the Glacier Express train.

GOING TO ITALY WITH BERNINA
The Bernina route is however a novel way to go between Switzerland and Italy as at Tirano, Italy, southern terminus of the Bernina trains, there are rail links to Milan (2.5 hrs) and on the way you can get off at Varenna and take boats to anyplace on Lake Como. At Milan of course you can connect to anyplace in Italy.
So though this route takes longer than other routes that largely burrow under the Alps for a really scenic route go via Tirano and St Moritz

Note in Tirano there are two train stations - the Swiss Bernina route one and cater-corner to it and practically touching it is the Italian station. Currently you still must go thru Customs when entering and exiting the Swiss station until Switzerland fully implements the border-free Schengen Accords next year i think.

Tirano is a transit town where some key highways go along the southern flank of the high Alps - there are some hotels right on the square where the train stations are (and usually much cheaper than hotels in Switzerland) - Tirano's town center is OK and the mountains are there but generally not much here except to sleep over.

MAJOLA PASS AND BERNINA EXPRESS BUS LINKS
Besides taking trains to St Moritz to Tirano to connect with the Bernina Pass train route you can also hop one of two buses:

The Majola Pass bus route links Lugano with St Moritz (4 hrs) and goes along the western shore of Lake Como, stopping at Menaggio on that lake, before heading up the rugged Majola Pass to St Moritz - this was one of the finest Alpine bus routes i've every taken in Switzerland. Note this bus has also been called the Palm Express.

BERNINA EXPRESS BUS
This bus goes between Tirano and Lugano (also via Menaggio on Lake Como) and takes 4 hours. It ties in with the official Bernina Express trains only, running usually once a day in each direction.

BERNINA TO LAKE COMO
Besides taking the train from Tirano to Varenna, from where boats go to Bellagio and Como and other ports around Lake Como, both the Majola Pass and Bernina Express buses stop in Menaggio too - so Lake Como is an easy first or last stop when doing the Bernina Route. (And also a possible day trip up and back from Lake Como.)

The Buses are spiffy Swiss Postal buses with that unique goo-gah horn that is blasted when going around curves to tell oncoming traffic to get the heck of out the way.

Swiss Passes are valid on both routes (even though they go thru a part of Italy) and Eurailpasses are valid on the Bernina Express buses. Eurailpasses are also valid on the whole of the Bernina Pass rail route.
Buses do require reservations and for those with a pass a minor supplement. For reservations try the swisstravelsystem.com or in the U.S. i always advise calling www.budgeteuropetravel.com and asking for Byron, a Swiss rail expert IME who can do the bookings. Depending on the time of year bookings can be hard to make - especially on the Bernina Express bus since that runs once a day and ties in with the group-ful official Bernina Express train.

Note - these buses, reservations, etc. were covered in much more detail in my original Palenque's Scenic Swiss Trains thread referenced at the beginning of this thread.

Excellent info, Pal. But please note the spelling: It's Maloja Pass.

I'd like to add that hopping on the Palm Express Bus is limited. You can't get on the bus in Menaggio e.g. to go to Lugano, or in the Bregaglia Valley to go to St. Moritz. It's basically really a long-distance bus between St. Moritz and Lugano.

thanks Ingo - that was actually in my head and forgot to write it so thanks clarifying that. And for Maloja too - bit dyslexic i guess.

RHAETISCHE BAHN OFFICIAL SITE
Scour this for schedules, prices, possibly to make reservations if you have a pass already, etc.

Rhätische Bahn: Vereina
Rhaetische Bahn / Rhaetian Railway ... die Schweizer Erlebnisbahn. ... Your card will be sent to you by post within two working days (Switzerland only). ...
www.rhb.ch/Vereina.83.0.html?&L=4

Some appetizing photos of the Albula and Bernina lines of the Rhatische Railways is on this site.

In July 2008 UNESCO added these lines of the Rhatische Bahn railways to its vaunted list of World Heritage Sites - only the third railway to be so included

Rhätische Bahn now a UNESCO world heritage site
On Monday, July 7, 2008, the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation (UNESCO) added 13 new sites to its World Heritage list.
www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?6,1710828

NEXT THE ALBULA LINE (Which ties in with the Bernina Line) - can called one of the true marvels of railway architecture and engineering

THE ALBULA LINE REICHENAU/CHUR TO ST MORITZ

A part of the Berinina route if coming from the north to St Moritz is the fabled Albula Line, called a tremendous feat of railway engineering when it opened around 1903 - entailing some 144 bridges and 42 tunnels as it climbs up to St Moritz

Two famous parts of the infrastructure are the Ladnwasser Viaduct and the Albula Viaduct where between Filisur and Preda the line cork screws up in 4 360 degree circles

Along with the Bernina Line, the Albula Line was granted World Heritage Site status in July 2008. The Bernina line being cited for its 52 bridges and 13 tunnels and being the only line to go up and over the Alps from north to south.

bookmarking

THE MARTIGNY-CHAMONIX (MC) RAILWAY

One of my favorite scenic Swiss train rides actually ends in France - at Chamonix, a premier Alpine resort IMO right up there with any in excitement and stunning scenery.

From the lowlands of the Rhone Valley at Martigny, the MC train starts immediately a prodigious climb all too close for some along the edge of a cliff with sheer drop-offs down to the Rhone River Valley far below. (Try not to think that one of the trains kind of fell off the cliff here some years ago - sit on the left if you are a Nervous Nellie!)

Anyway the train climbs steeply and then goes along a rocky gorge all the way to the French frontier - offering glimpses of the high Alps and the dramatic Emisson barrage high off to the north.

After crossing the frontier the train line kind of levels off and soon begins it's every so gradual descent to Chamonix, following a gurgling stream and offering, just before Chamonix, awesome views of glaciers that seem to come right down to the tracks.

The narrow-gauge train continues thru Chamonix all the way to St-Gervais-Fayette-les-Bains (sp?) where the French mainline trains and even an odd TGV train i think ties in with service to Lyon, Paris and Geneva areas.

Next - Practical Train Info - Itinerary Planning - Using Railpasses - Chamonix and Martigny

rsmbsm

PalenQ - this is organized very well. I've been working on a possible one week trip to southern France the first week of May 2009. That said, I keep coming back to my husband's wish to take the Bernina Express for photo ops. You helped me last year with details but we opted instead to take our son to Rome. Again, this is nagging at me. Honestly, what do you think of the first week of May taking the Bernina Express/Switzerland? Thanks, in advance...

Thanks dorkfm -

Well i think May would be a splendid time - not many tourists yet and weather should be nice - though perhaps cool at the summit but i think this area may get southern warm drafts from Italy.

One problem with the Bernina is that it is relatively remote vis a vis Switzerland's other scenic mountain railways which are mainly in central Switzerland and right on or just off the main north-south Germany and France to Italy rail and road routes.

You basically have to add an extra day to include it say in going between Venice or anywhere in Italy and say most any other place you want to go to.

But as for May i think that would be fine.

Pal --
This is a great post, thanks so much!
We were thinking of doing the Glacier Express but after reading this I'm changing my mind to the Bernina Express.
Do you think if we took it from Tirano to St. Moritz that we would have great views or do you think it necessary to go further? We will be going next end of April, beg of May.
Thanks in advance!
Mary

Will be in Basel for a week. Can you recommend a one day train trip from there, mainly for scenery? Due to busniness appointments we willnot be able to stay overnight out of Basel.

topping

Hi PalenQ,
I read some of the early messages in this post and have been mulling over a few things as well as being too busy to get back with some questions.
Your comments about the cow pastures, flower-bedecked chalets and mountains had me saying - "that's just what I want to see" Initially I was convinced that the Golden Pass train was the way to go but now I am unsure. We intend visiting in May and I'm concerned that the weather won't be the best for some of the more mountainous parts of the trip. Would it still be a great option in May or do you have a better suggestion?

The cows are brought up into the mountains sometimes end of May but usually more towards mid June.

elainee - suzanne - i will address your questions soon i hope (or others feel free to do so as well!)

dorkforcemom - you say your hubby wants photo ops on the Bernina - in my much longer thread on Scenic Swiss Trains i dwell a lot more on the Bernina and someone graciously took time to point out which trains had the open-air platforms on the Bernina route - these would provide the ultimate photo opp IMO

Fodors.com > Travel Talk > Europe > Palenque's Scenic Swiss Trains
http://www.fodors.com/forums/threadselect.jsp?fid=2&tid=34707687

<Will be in Basel for a week. Can you recommend a one day train trip from there, mainly for scenery? Due to busniness appointments we willnot be able to stay overnight out of Basel.>

Not any really awesomely scenic trains that are right in that vicinity

but some options for great scenic trains farther afield - it's two hours each way to Interlaken-Ost station from where a few-minute mountain train takes you up to Grindelwald and or Lauterbrunnen - both nestled at the foot of the high Alps towering 1000s of feet above them.

And then from say Grindelwald take the tiny mountain train up to Kleine Scheidegg and then down to Wengen (a dream spot with some of the finest views in the Alps) and then to Lauterbrunnen and back to Interlaken-Ost - awesomely scenic from Interlaken up.

but a lot of time of trains - about six hours actual train time i would think

Similarly you could also train from Basel to Spiez, near Interlaken and then hop the Golden Pass train to Montreux and then a fast train back to Basel. Bit less travel time i suspect but not nearly as awesome Alpine scenery as the Grindelwald-Lauterbrunnen area

I'll be back with a suggestion of a scenic train closer to Basel - it's actually in Germany and some ideas for shorter day trips from Basel - like to Colmar, France and the Rhine Falls or Lake Constance.

DAY TRIPS FROM BASEL BY TRAIN

For a rather scenic and rather mountainous train ride hop hourly trains from either Basel station to Freiburg and then change to the hill climbing train that plows thru the fabled Black Forest up to the Titissee (sp?) - a lake way up in the mountains that is a popular hiking venue. Not dramatically scenic but very very nice scenery. And you can look over cutesy Freiburg as well - a really cute town.

Or hop a train from SBB station in Basel to Colmar, France - about an hour i think - rather scenic as it goes thru bucolic countryside and the alsace wine growing region around the cute Alsace regional town of Colmar - very very quaint and cute - easy day trip about an hour each way or so. Strasbourg, France is just a few minutes beyond Colmar and to me is one of Europe's most underrated big cities - fanatstic city with a fantastic church.

Next in Swiss - the Rhine Falls and Lake Constance from Basel

BASEL TO THE RHINE FALLS
A rather scenic trip thru the southern reaches of the Germany's Black Forest by train takes you in one hour to Schlauffhausen, a pretty regional town in Switzerland.

check out Schlauffhausen a bit and hop a local train to Niederhausen (? not sure of the name but a platform station that is right by the famous Rhine Falls - the first station west of Schlauffhausen - some trains also stop here before hitting Schlauffhausen.

Anyway the Rhine Falls are a thunderous falls and cascades in the Rhine - very impressionable and there are paths that lead around it. You can also walk the few miles from Schlauffhausen along paths along the Rhine to the Falls.

Anyway a rather scenic train thru bucolic parts of Germany gets you to Schlauffhausen - hourly trains go from the Basel Bad Bhf - the German train station in Basel.

Schlauffhausen is weirdly a Swiss town that is in a small Swiss enclave that is on the northern side of the Rhine - sticking into Germany.

>check out Schlauffhausen

LOL
The town name is Schaffhausen.

>a bit and hop a local train to Niederhausen (?

The train stop right above the falls is called Schloss Laufen (Laufen Castle)

Susanne - sorry for delay - i think May would be fine - later in May the better. You should, and locals can correct me, find little snow except where there is always ice and snow - Jungfraujoch type areas - normally that is.

I have been in Murren and Grindelwald in mid-Sep and at times have seen ice and freezing temps there - but rarely.

And for trains like the Golden Pass, which does not really climb that much, May should be a Wunderbar time as orchards will be in bloom and flowers start gracing the chalets and spring is blooming.

And May is still an off-season - in between so you will not have summer type crowds in places like the Berner Oberland.

Early June would be better but i think May would be a great time - Swiss experts can add some light to this perhaps.

That said weather in the Alps can be fickle - it could be very warm or quite cool - so do bring sweaters, etc. to layer - esp if hiking as the sun comes out you feel to warm, it goes back in and you feel chilled.

Cheers

THE ALBULA LINE - EN ROUTE TO/FROM THE BERNINA LINE

Next we'll turn coverage to the Albula Line that takes you to St Moritz/Pontresina to connect with the Bernina Pass line.

And though the Albula Line does not have the dramatic Top of the World Scenery of the Bernina Pass route it also has been named, along with the Bernina Line, a UNESCO World Heritage Site - mainly because of the awesome railway engineering involved.

TBC - Details and itinerary planning with the Albula Line.

Rhätische Bahn: Albula
as the train rolls through a fairytale landscape of enchanted forests, picturesque villages and towering mountains. That’s the Albula Line of the Rhaetian ...
www.rhb.ch/index.php?id=82?&L=4

Here is a better reference to read about the prodigious engineering feat of the Albula Line:

http://www.rhb.ch/UNESCO-World-Heritage.257.0.html?&L=4.#c485

Interesting to note also that the Bernina Pass line is called one of the 'steepest in the world in gradients using adhesion traction and not cogs, normally employed to negotiate such climbs and descents - one reason the Bernina 'Express' creeps along at about 10 mph at many places perhaps

NEXT UP - THE ALBULA LINE

and tying in with Glacier and Bernina Expresses.

bookmarking

bookmarking

Thank both of your for bringing this back up - i tried to find it the other day and gave up - i do want to get back to scribbling things about Swiss trains that i so love.

Any Q's are always welcomed.

Merci (what they say it seems in Switzerland always - even in the Germanic speaking areas)

I will be taking the Berina Express in early March one day and then the Glacier Express to Zermat the next day! A lot of train travel! Have you taken the train in the winter?

entrada - yes a lot of train travel but nearly scenic all the way - i have not taken these type of Swiss trains in winter but i think with the snow being more it could be even more delectable.

Cheers

I would think that the Bernina Pass route may get warm breezes in March from the south and may not really be as much winter as you think - though there is always ice at the summit - glaciers you can walk to. North the Alps the weather is much more rainy and cooler but should not be really cold IME

The Bernina Pass rail line is the only such line that actually crosses the Alps from South to North and v.v. - all other trans-Alpine main rail routes use tunnels to burrow under the spine of the Alps that runs thru Switzerland from East to West
(and v.v.)

Indeed the first part of the Bernina Pass train goes thru a rather lush seemingly semi-tropical part of Switzerland near the Italian border.

Palenque--advice please. Traveling in July for a week in Murren, we want to arrive 3-4 days early for sightseeing between Geneva and Murren, definitely see Gruyere then ride a scenic train. I am sure it's scenic between the two, but if you have any other suggestions, we will have maybe 2 days for travel.

Karuna- Ponder hopping the Golden Pass scenic rail route from Montreux, on Lake Geneva to Interlaken-Ost from where trains and gondolas will take you to Murren.

The Golden Pass (formerly known as the Panoramic Express) makes a dramatic ascent zigzagging up thru vineyards from Montreux - yielding sweeping views of the lake as it rises then traverse sweet Alpine valleys the whole way to Zweissimmen, where you must change trains - from the narrow-gauge (smaller) rails to the standard-gauge mainline trains that end at Interlaken-Ost.

The Montreux-Zweissimmen route has trains about hourly of which several a day are official Golden Pass trains - with the usual glass-domed Panoramic cars and also in first class unique swiveling chairs - there are even in 1st class VIP seats - several per train where you are perched next to the driver compartment so you feel like you are driving the train.

In any case regular trains or the official Golden Pass train the scenery is the same - the signature Swiss Alpine scenery with snow-capped peaks in the distance and cows and old chalet-style wooden housing bedecked by flower boxes.

If you want to interrupt your trip on this route the world-famous skiing and hiking resort - Gstaad is just off the Golden Pass route (a shuttle train goes there from the main route).

From Spiez to Interlaken the train tracks along lovely Lake Thun.

Gruyeres can be reached from Lausanne by another specialty train - the Chocolate Express, which also climbs from the lake thru vineyards and then to Broc-Factory station where you can tour a Wonka-like chocolate factory - careful not to fall in the vats and of course taste the product.

Before the Chocolate Factory the Chocolate Train stops at Gruyeres, where near the station you can tour a Gruyeres cheese plant - and of course the walled town of Gruyeres with its cute castle is one of Switzerland's cutest smaller towns IMO.

You can take regular trains over the same route hourly - for the Chocolate Express - using vintage luxury Belle-Epoque Pullman carriages and, i believe wine and cheese tastings en route is only first class - if you have a 2nd class Swiss Pass you'd have to pay a $40 or so supplement (again can take regular trains always)

With your type of travel by all means investigate the Swiss Pass - consecutive-day passes are the best per day deal so it you can accommodate an 8-straight-day pass it would cover all your travels - even to Murren in full - otherwise investigate the 3-day Swiss Flexipass.

Thanks for all that info. We will be in Murren from Sunday to Sunday, then need to get back to airport so will need a longer rail pass of some type. The week in Murren, we will not need rail passes that I know of. Also, I am being advised that we MUST see the Matterhorn sometime in our spare time! But it's south of everywhere else we will be, and we do only have about 3 spare days...

If you have 3 days between Geneva and Mürren, it would make sense to head for Zermatt during that time, and hope to see the Matterhorn then. spend a night in Zermatt to increas your chances of seeing the oft-shrouded mountain.

This would take you on a different route than the Golden Pass route, unless you decided to backtrack as far as Montreux and head to Mürren from there (with a detour to Gruyere if you like).

JUNGFRAU REGION (BERNER OBERLAND) TRAINS AND CABLEWAYS

Every inch of every train line in the fabled Jungfrau Region (From Interlaken up into the high Alps to places like Grindelwald, Lauterbrunnen, Wengen, Murren and of course the Jungfraujoch - the end of the line and Europe's highest altitude train station)

Starting next post i'll cover (with hopefully the help of others as always) trains and cableways in the Jungfrau Region, starting with getting from Interlaken into the hills.

Great thread, really useful stuff. Like the poster above I'm going to Basel and looking for a scenic one day trip - the only difference is I'm going in December and wondering which of those you mentioned might be best if we want to see lovely snowy scenes?

Thanks pootles. Well days are short in December so get an early start and consider doing the Golden Pass train between Montreux and Spiez - not sure you will see any snow though except on tops of high peaks in the distance. From Spiez you have speedy mainline trains back to Basel.

Pootles - actually i may recommend , like i did to the other Basel questioner i believe, actually heading north to Germany for the closest scenic mountainous rail ride from Basel - one i did in December not long ago.

Head to Freiburg and the Black Forest - From Freiburg station a side rail line slices up and up into the Black Forest - to Titisee - an alpine lake that is the summit for the whole Black Forest i believe - there was tons of snow up there when i took this trip in December a few years back. And it doesn't take more than an hour or so each way i believe. And to save money get a Lander Pass for this region - offering unlimited train (and city transport too) for a day for about $50 and covers up to five people i believe - www.bahn.de for details - German Rail Web Site and click on Lander Tickets - that said i am not sure there is one that would cover Basel-Freiburg-titisee but suppose there is. Buy it at the first station in Germany - not sure if you can buy it at Basel, Switzerland main station but possible.

And you also can see Freiburg - a lovely university town and during December there is a typical German Christmas Market gracing Freiburg's main square (again not positive but never seen a sizeable Germany town without one of these fun fun things. Try the gluhwein - hot spicy wine they serve at these places.

Oh, I am still so confused. I will be in paris for a month til Oct 28, then free time. I had plans to go to Strasbourg.
How could I ride one of the scenic trains from that area. I have several days. Also would early Nov. be a really bad time for this. I just cannot figure this out. Had given up until I saw this again. I was just going to spend a few days between vienna, salzburg and garmisch.

Thanks

Strasbourg is about as close to the Black Forest scenic train i mention above so that would be an easy day trip from there - just hop on the train to Germany across the Rhine and change for Freiburg. I think the Golden Pass and scenic Swiss trains would be too far to leisurely enjoy from Strasburg however. But Strasbourg to me is a fantastic city - often neglected by American tourists it seems.

Early November would be OK - even though days are short and weather could be poor it would not be really cold unless you went up to a place like Titisee where there may be snow. Like i said i did the Titisee train in mid-December - and the weather was rather mild and pleasant.

From a Strasbourg base you could also take day trips by train to nearby Colmar - a really cute regional town and renown wine center - or to Baden-Baden, Germany - one of Europe's most historic and prestigious spa towns.
But if you want to experience snow, etc. i'd head to the fabled Interlaken/Jungfrau area and base there - lots of great short day journeys to be done from that base - including the Golden Pass train rides to Montreux or Lucerne over the Brunig Pass. This area in winter is truly a Winter Wonderland.

SWISS PASSES STILL CHEAPER IF BOUGHT IN THE U.S.
A recent Fodor thread asked this Q:
"My wife and I will be arriving in Zurich on Sept 1st of this year. We will be looking to purchase an 8 day SwissSaver pass for the two of us. When and where should I purchase the passes? Now, before we leave, or when I get there? Thanks."

and after comparing prices at www.swisstravelsystem.ch and U.S. prices the OP found:

<It looks like it would be cheaper to buy it here in the states. $558 with free shipping. Otherwise it is $640 chf and the exchange rate is around 93% right now.>

(OP will save about $75 by buying the passes in the U.S. before going to Switzerland over buying the exact same pass there in Swiss Francs)
so if pondering a Swiss Pass check Swiss prices at www.swisstravelsystem.ch vs U.S. prices: http://www.budgeteuropetravel.com/id3.html; prices in U.S. should be exactly the same regardless of where you buy it but some agents may have mailing fees - prices are set by the Swiss Railways and cannot be sold at more or less - so price shopping seems fruitless. But the point here is to buy your Swiss Pass before leaving for Switzerland. Now exchange rates and pass prices can change and who knows, for future readers if the price discrepancy will be true in future years - though it has been the case for a few years now.

I live in Basel and frequently take day trips to other parts of Switzerland (and this winter DH and I plan to buy annual 1st class passes for all of Switzerland). Wengen is nice, it's a long day trip but easily doable. So is Gstaad or Appenzell. Or take the Voralpen route--start in Luzern, then it makes it way up to Lake Constance and back through Zurich. Pretty scenery and tends to be less crowded than the more well known scenic routes. You could visit the Christmas market in Rapperswil (a Voralpen ticket lets you make as many stops as you like along the route over two days).

But you never know...this past December, we had some lovely snowfalls in Basel canton and it's an easy local tram ride to Ettingen to walk among the snowy fields and vineyards.

Merci Passerine for those nice excursion suggestions. Would i expect Basel itself to have a Christmas Market?

Yes, it does, but it's not one of my favorites. Much nicer in Rapperswil or up to Freiburg or other towns like Baden-Baden in the Black Forest.

However, as we're in mid-summer, another easy excursion from Basel if it's a hot, muggy day (and we get our share of those): the great community pools in Gelterkinden. Local trains between Basel and Luzern stop there. It's a pretty town surrounded by countryside and an easy 10-15 minute walk from the train station is the public pool. It's actually 3 pools...an Olympic size swimming pool with separate diving area for people who want to do "real" swimming, a family pool with water slide, and a baby pool. Nice grassy area to spread your towels out, also has a cafe and modern changing rooms. It's fairly cheap...we've got visitors coming in a few weeks with a 9 yo; if it's hot, we'll make that one of our outings.

http://www.baselland.ch/fileadmin/baselland/files/docs/gemeinden/gelterkinden/freibad.jpg

full info and another picture:
http://tinyurl.com/npoots

Passerine - that place would be wonderful especially for folks with kids. thanks

and another fine excursion IMO from Basel would be to go to the Rhine Falls near Schlaffhausen - you take a sideline train from Basel, which i believe actually slices thru Germany, to a station right at this awesome water cascade of the Rhine River. I took a train to Schlaffhausen, a cutesy enough Swiss town that sticks up into Germany, and then did a lovely walk on riverside trails the few miles to the falls.

But i have not take the boats on the Rhine from i think Constanz to Schlaffhausen (not sure of exact places - Kreuzlingen i think) and that is on my list - have you taken those boats and comments if so?

thanks

http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/scenic-swiss-trains-in-a-nutshell.cfm#

No, I haven't taken those boats yet. With our visitors, we'll be doing a few boat trips, including the cruise from Basel to Rheinfelden and the river cruise from Solothurn to Biel. Plus the more usual tourist choice, the lake cruise starting in Luzern.

At the end of the year, when we go GAO (get annual first class passes for the whole of Switzerland), we intend to do a lot more exploring. Even though I have more than 4 weeks of paid vacation still left and another two weeks of comp time to use up by the end of the year, it's been too busy to take much time off!

Passerine -again thanks for the info.

Now back to Scenic Swiss Trains - covering the Interlaken-Jungfrau region - a k a Berner Oberland, where very click of every turn of the wheel on the narrow-gauge and often cog-assisted train tracks is scenic IMO - often dramatically so. Even getting to Interlaken can be really scenic - say if you take the Brunig Pass route ( a k a Golden Pass) or the Montreux-Spiez part of the Golden Pass route - or from the Brig area if you take the regional train route via the Lotschberg Pass/Tunnel route.

And there are dramatically scenic buses that can take you into the Berner Oberland from stops on the Glacier Express route or the Zurich-Lugano mainline - i'll detail these access route to the fabled Berner Oberland as well.

I will link to other threads that i think contain varying opinions, etc. on Swiss trains, etc. this one talks about whether to take the Glacier Express or not:

http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/switzerland-glacier-express-train.cfm

OK BACK TO MORE ON SCENIC SWISS TRAINS - THE JUNGFRAU REGION TRAINS AND TRANSPORTS

No area of Switzerland offers IMO such a panoply of gorgeous mountain trains, aerial gondolas, lake boats, etc in a compact area as the Wunderbar Jungfrau Region just south of Interlaken, the gateway to the area.

In future posts i will dwell on my favorite Swiss area in general and by far the favorite for its gaggle of awesome trains and transports.

JUNGFRAU AGENDA FOR SCENIC TRANSPORTS

Interlaken - scenic routes into Interlaken and out as well, including some novel access routes involving postal buses

Mountain Trains - From Interlaken to Grindelwald, Lauterbrunnen, Wengen, Kleine Scheidegg and the Jungfraujoch.

Steamer boat rides on Lake Brienz and Lake Thun, the two pristine Alpine lakes that bookend Interlaken ("between lakes")

Transports in the Grindelwald amphitheatre

Transports in the Lauterbrunnen area - including what i think is the most awesome excursion in the area - taking the thrilling aerial cable ways up from Lauterbrunnen to Murren/Schilthorn/Gimmelwald and back down to Lauterbrunnen

Interlaken area transports

Three Pass Postal Bus excursion and using postal buses to escape the Interlaken area via Meiringen, on Lake Brienz, to connect with Glacier Express or trains on the Gotthard line to Zurich or Lugano.

TBC - starting with getting to Interlaken via scenic trains!

This is a dizzying wealth of information again. I would love to take my elderly mother on a Swiss train type trip to see beautiful scenery. But it is hard for me to imagine which would best suit her.

Which of these numerous combinations would be best fit for someone who will NOT be hiking up and down any of the paths.. just riding the trains on a couple trips over the period of 5 days or so? (Think senior senior partial walking disability but strong spirit)

Would someone be so kind as to just lay it out for me? Or send me to a link with itineraries for the elderly? I would so appreciate it.

.the best base.. or more than one base.
..the best day or overnight trips

ideally a week or less, not more.

Thanks

Ummh - OK let me try - short scenic train trips

how about landing in Zurich and spending a day there to recuperate and head to Lucerne - a city IME full of senior citizens who laze on benches along the lovely lakeside promenade - anyway all flat and compact - hop a lake boat on what i think is Switzerland's prettiest lake - the fjord-like Lake Lucerne - effortless - get off at some cute lake-side town for lunch and return to Lucerne

then hop the cog-wheel mountain train to Interlaken over the scenic Brunig Pass route that also goes along idyllic Lake Brienz to Interlaken - another favorite base it seems for senior citizens IME and totally flat and compact - again boat rides on either of the lake bookending Interlaken - Lake Thun or Lake Brienz is an effortless way to saok up the scintillating Alpine scenery.

then do a short excursion by train up into the Jungfrau Region - like to Grindelwald where you can soak up the awesome glacier-girdled Jungfrau Massif right from town itself - a huge amphitheater unfolds of majestic Alpine peaks, glaciers, etc. If you stay here you need not move off your hotel balcony to drink up the serene about 270 degree amphitheatre-like scenery

Then hop the Golden Pass special scenic train from Interlaken to Montreux - descending to Lake Geneva thru vineyards - many folk love Montreux and even more nearby Vevey - again all flat with sweet lake front promenades, etc. The Chateau Chillon, of lord Byron fame is a short boat ride or bus ride from either town. And yes hop a lake boat here too.

then either return by mainline train quickly to Zurich or head to nearby Geneva for your return flight.

A SwissPass IMO would be ideal for such an itinerary - an 8-straight day pass is a real deal or if really wanting to cut it down a 4-day pass - but for many the 3-day Swiss Flexipass is the best deal if your schedule does not comport to the 4- or 8-day consecutive passes - for the 3-day Flexipass - good for 3 days of 100% unlimited travel on any 3 days of your choosing over a one-month period - and then in between the 1st and 3rd days of 100% travel you get 50% off practically everything that moves in Switzerland - city buses, trams, lake boats, all trains aerial cableways, etc.

Even in Alpine area you need not walk at all if not wanting to - trains and cableways take you virtually everywhere. Indeed i'd wager most tourists to Switzerland rarely hit the ubiquitous hiking/walking paths.

Anyway love your Spain advice and would entertain any questions.

And i should have added if it were my Mum and a tad physically challenged then by all means i would pay extra for first-class tickets or a first-class pass - seats bigger - often empty seats while in 2nd class you at times may find rather crowded conditions - i generally say 2nd class in Switzerland is a good as first class in most countries and for most that is perfectly adequate but there is a difference and it would make you mum all the more comfy.

Switzerland also has a lot of help for physically challenged folks in stations, etc. Seems like you Mum is fine enough though to climb the step or so into the train car but otherwise there are lifts usually to go from one track to the other - to get in and out of the station if need be, etc.

This looks great. I have to get out a map and figure out times as I am not quite sure I understand where the logical overnights would be. Will look into it as soon as I have more time.

Thanks you SO much. I hope we finally do this trip when she comes this year, as I am not sure how many more she will be able to come back. I have always wanted to explore Switzerland a bit more. I have been to Geneve, Zurich and by train to Chur to ski, also St. Moritz by car from Chur. But these other train and boat trips are what would make such a nice trip with her, I think.

We would be flying or training from Spain, so perhaps no need to overnight in Zurich upon arrival.

I really appreciate this itinerary suggestion. These Swiss train posts are so interesting and such a temptation! Thank you for your detailed posts in general.

Make that Scuol for skiing in the Engandine.. not Chur. I think we changed trains at Chur.. the reason it came to mind so quickly.

Hi Pal -

Do you - or anyone else - have a link with photos on the Brig-Chur section of the Glacier Express route? I have family who are planning to do this in January ...

Steve

Steve - i do not know of any. Dukey just went over that route and had started a trip report so possibly there.

Lincasanova - OK I should have remembered you are coming from Barcelona - the overnight Talgo trains link Barcelona with both Geneva and Zurich i believe and since you are probably the rare Fodorite to be able to make renfe.es work it seems you could snag some great fares if you are into overnight trains - some are not. Otherwise it is an all-day train ride during the day. But the overnight train may be easier than going out to the airport, the tedious boarding process, etc. and you arrive right in the city centre - could go into Zurich and out of Geneva. thanks for your nice comments.

Glacier Express Download - [ Translate this page ]
The Glacier Express ... You will find Photos for professional use in print media. All Photos are High-Resolution (RGB / 300dpi). ...
www.glacierexpress.ch/gallery/photodownload.php

steve - the official Glacier Express site has generic photos it seems that could be anywhere en route - note the new fancy train cars dating from last year after the line had been closed for a few months while all-new rolling stock was put in service.

Lincasnova:

You and your Mum can also head into the high Alps without any effort - and my favoritre such jaunt, which i will outline in detail hopefully in the Jungfrau Region coverage i am beginning - goes by train from Interlaken (or Wengen, a perennial favorite mountain town with Fodorites and a place known for having awesome views and, without any cars, so so quiet, etc) anyway from Wengen or Interlaken or Grindelwald head to Lauterbrunnen by train then at the station transfer to the new aerial cable car - a large gondola that shoots straight up the cliff to Grutschalp from where a train rolls along the cliff's edge (at a safe distance) to Murren, a famous watering hole, and from there hop the long aerial cableway to the Schilthorn, an icy outpost with a famed revolving restaurant on it - famous from a James Bond movie, On H Majesty's Service i believe) - anyway a terrace there overlloks the icy area and there are stupendous views down into the Interlaken area

then return by cable to Murren and hop the aerial cableway down to Gimmelwald, a farming village literally out in the middle of nowhere but with awesome views of the ice-girdled Jungfrau Massif - very unique special place - then take the aerial cableway back down to the Lauterbrunnen Valley at Stechelberg, where a postal bus awaits to whisk you back to Luaterbrunnen for trains back to your base.

This is my favorite excursion in the Jungfrau Region and is easily done even with people with much more limited walking ability than your Mum - but it does take an adventuresome spirit like she has too - the aerial lifts are awesome - like plunging down the valley in a free fall to Stechelberg but the gondolas are so large you can stand in the middle and not have to see anything at all.

If you do have a Swiss Pass then the whole transports are 100% covered except the Murren to Schilthorn segment and that is 50% off.

Sounds fabulous! Thanks!

I have been following several Swiss posts but so many of them included hikes that I would have loved to have done this fall.. but now I may postpone all this for a winter trip with my mom. I really appreciate this no hiking itinerary for us.

Thanks again.

IF WE GO, you all will be the first to hear about it!

Pal - Thanks for the link. Nice photos too ...

Steve

GETTING TO INTERLAKEN THE SCENIC WAY

Well there ain't any rail/road access into Interlaken, the gateway to the fabulous Jungfrau Region that ain't scenic - even dramatically so. And though most people rail in via one of two mainline rail routes - one from Spiez along the shores of Lake Thun or one from Lucerne over the Brunig Pass thence along Lake Brienz there is another means of access that most folks don't consider but which IMO they should - that being by postal buses over either the Grimsel Pass or Susten Pass - hopping the iconic Swiss Postal Buses that ply each pass from Meiringen, a short train/boat ride from Interlaken along the shores of Lake Brienz.
So i'll take a look at the main access rail routes and also the postal bus routes, both of which provide convenient tie ins with the Glacier Express Route and the Zurich-Lugano Gotthard rail route.

GETTING TO INTERLAKEN/JUNGFRAU REGION

THE BRUNIG PASS ROUTE FROM LUCERNE
A delightful way to access Interlaken and its hinterlands like Wengen, Grindelwald, etc from Lucerne is to hop the hourly regional trains that go up and over the Brunig Pass - from Lucerne the tracks go along a portion of Lake Lucerne and then gradually ascend a bucolic Alpine-lake strewn valley until you hear a grinding sound that signifies the cog wheels are being lowered to engage with the cogs laid in the middle of the narrow-gauged tracks to help the train negotiate a steep portion with the assist of cogs - it is said to be the only Swiss Federal Railways' only cog-assisted train and the rare one on such a main rail line.
Only after cresting over the summit that at some point the cog wheel is lifted and the gradients become benign enough to go on without them (cogs also assist in breaking the train when going down steep inclines).
The approach to Meiringen is a few miles of descending tracks and you can lovingly see Lake Brienz laid out far below. At Meiringen the train loco must be detached and moved to the other end of the train and the train reverses direction to head along the shores of idyllic fjord-like Lake Brienz - passing thru Brienz, a village known for its wood-cutting, evidence in the ubiquitous elaborate wooden planter boxes gracing each wooden chalet-style house.
Then it's right along the lake shore all the way to Interlaken and the terminus at Interlaken-Ost (East) station - the narrow-gauge tracks end here so trains can't go on to Interlaken-West, the station a mile away and right in the centre of Interlaken.
But if going into the Jungfrau Region then you hop onto mountain-climbing BOB (Berner Oberland Bahn) trains to either Grindelwald or Lauterbrunnen (change there for Wengen or Murren).
If coming from Zurich to Interlaken the quickest route is via Bern but though any train ride in Switzerland is scenic IMO the Brunig Pass route, via Lucerne, is a bit longer but so so much more scenic - and you also can easily in Lucerne stuff your bags in a luggage locker and spend a few hours in that gorgeous city en route.

NEXT THE GOLDEN PASS ROUTE FROM MONTREUX AND LAKE GENEVA

It should be noted that the Golden Pass special scenic tourist train also runs between Lucerne and Interlaken, before continuing on via Spiez and Zweisimmen to Montreux and Lake Geneva, its western terminus. And by 'tourist train' i mean that it offers onboard hostesses and recorded commentary on sites you roll by - and extra fancy doillies on seats and most famously glass-domed Panoramic or Observation cars, traditionally only in first class cars but more and more in some 2nd class carriages as well. But there are on all segments normal regional or IC trains running the same routes with of course the same scenery. Some segments of the Golden Pass require seat reservations before boarding as well - but currently i believe none are required on the Lucerne to Interlaken-Ost portion - but to insure a place in an observation car they are suggested and can be made in any Swiss station. so just to clarify that the official Golden Pass trains are not the only option, though they do add special services not on normal trains. Swiss railpasses and railpasses valid in Switzerland (like Eurailpasses) are fully valid on the Golden Pass official trains and, of course, on the regular trains as well.

Palenque,

Thank you so much for this wonderful thread. It’s a joy to read. Your post show such love and knowledge of both Switzerland and train travel. Fantastic!

I am planning a big European journey with my 16-year old daughter next summer (first trip for her). I’ve included Switzerland in my itinerary, but had a really hard time figuring out the details until this topic came along. I would like to focus on the scenic Switzerland and avoid big cities, which presents a problem. I find big cities are much easier to research and I am still fighting to wrap my head around what to expect in Switzerland. Maybe you could help me a bit figuring out what to expect.

Unfortunately, I don’t have to much time to spend in Switzerland (3 days). Here is the plan so far:

- Arrive to Montreux in the evening (from Milan)
- Next morning explore chateau de Chillon & spend another night in Montreux
- In the morning take the Golden Pass train to Interlaken
- Spend the rest of the day in/ around Interlaken: take a boat ride, perhaps go to Brienz, see Ballenberg (the open air museum)
- Sleep over in Interlaken
- Spend a day exploring Alps using the route via Lauterbrunnen and Murren that you suggested above (walk around a bit in both Murren and Gimmelwald)
- Would need to move on to France in the evening, so will need to leave Interlaken by 5 pm or so.

But I have whole bunch of questions and would truly appreciate your input:

1. How much time do I need for chateau de Chillon? The best part of the day or half a day? Should I visit ether Broc Chocolate factory or Gruyeres on the same day or is it too much?
2. Where would you recommend going from Interlaken, if I’d like to combine it with the boat ride? To Brienz? Is Ballenberg worth a visit? Any other place along the way? Some waterfalls, perhaps? I’ll probably have half a day for this.
3. How long would you say your suggested route in the Alps take? Does the Eurorail pass cover those trains / cable cars and so on? Any reservations needed? Do they run often?
4. When we reach Schilthorn what weather should we expect in August? Would there be ice or snow?
5. Any scenic route you’d recommend for journey to France?
6. By the way, it’s possible that the first night in Montreux will be on August 1st, The Swiss National Day. What should I expect? Would there be fireworks or parades? How can I find out?

Thank you so much again for the wonderful thread.

AnnaM - i just opened the thread after a long absence and i will try to answer to my best your questions next time. Thanks for the nice comments.

Eurail will get you on the Golden Pass 100% and to Interlaken but up from there it will give you only a 25% discount but on a flexipass if you have one with a discount you do not use a flexible day of travel and you still get the discount - thus you'd get 25% off the Lauterbrunnen, etc. and not use a day on the pass.

I will digest the Qs and report back.

Anna- sorry i have taken so long and hope you are still around but if not others can benefit perhaps.

so here goes: (and i invite you to post your questions in a new post so others can give their opinions as well) - if you have not already done so.

1- Chateau Chillon is small enough so i cannot see how you could spend more than a few hours there - i have never heard of lone lines, etc. You could take a boat there from Montreux or a public bus or even walk the few miles (though when my son was 16 that would have been a tough sell!) - if you have a Swiss Pass the boat, bus (or train which also goes there) would be valid on all as well as entrance to the castle, i believe (but only on 100% covered days - not on days in between a Flexipass day)

but to do both that and Gruyeres and Broc factory would be very ambitious - but you could well take the train to Gruyeres from Montreux and it is a nice train journey up thru vineyards from Lausanne and Gruyeres is small and a gem - great castle - fine walled town and cheese factory.

I guess you could point for the Broc Factory in lieu of Gruyeres but i would suggest Gruyeres is the more more to see (but perhaps a 16 yr old would rather see the Chocolate Factory (which to be honest i have not visited) - and is easy enought to take a train too from Montreux.

4- Schilthorn weather in August - very very hard to predict, even from one day to the next but nearly every hotel i've ever been in has on the TV weather cams everywhere in the area so check before setting out - chances are in August you will find it more clear than not - but rainy spells do set in here so keep that itinerary flexible - i like both the Murren-Gimmelwald loop and boats on Lake Brienz - but the former really is nice only in nice weather - whereas the boat can be done in foul weather and the Ballenberg museum is weather-proof as well (though nicer weather is always nicer...)

and you need not do Ballenberg to enjoy the boat ride on Lake Brienz - yup there is a waterfall right by a boat dock - the Giessbach See dock - there is an antique funicular that takes you up to a famous hotel there that is right by a roaring water cascade - boat service is about hourly in season so you can get off and on easily. And when you get to Brienz, if not wanting to do Ballenberg, which does take a bit of time as it is vast - hop a train to Meiringen, a few minutes away and there on the edge of town you have the famous Reichenbach Falls - much bigger than Giessbach Falls even and famous for being the venue of where Sherlock Holmes pushed Prof Moriarity to his death in the falls. (I think i got that right!) And in Meiringen, a sweet regional town, there is in an old tiny church a Sherlock Holmes Museum. And trains back to Interlaken-Ost run all the time and take only about 20-30 mins. So even without Ballenberg Lake Brienz can be a sweet sweet day - even in foul weather.

My take on Ballenberg is that it is a great open-air folk museum - old buildings brought here and lots of demos of old-time crafts, etc. but in Switzerland i'd rather yes see waterfalls, take a boat ride, explore Meiringen, etc. - that is if time is limited and it is.

In nice weather i'd opt for the Murren/Schilthorn/Gimmelwald day - in poorer the boat ride on Lake Brienz, returning by train.

I'll tackle more of your Qs next time. Cheers

Pal, how do you reconcile your anti-Swiss rantings in the Lounge with the ongoing recommendations here?

Passerine - please keep politico things separate from tourism advice that could be timeless - ten years from now, etc. And you seem to thing i am anti-Swiss not at all - but yes i have ranted recently about the Swiss vote to ban minarets in a national referendum - and with the use of inflammatory posters like those i saw of a minaret with shooting rockets (obviously Moslem terrorists) shooting out of them. SHAME ON THE SWISS PEOPLE

Pal...thank you for your one-time suggestion that Interlaken could be a very convenient base for day trips higher into the Alps. Worked out very well for us....staying at the Goldey Hotel on the beautiful, tranquil River aare, we had great view from our south-facing balcony...(Eiger, Munch and Jungfrau)..the daily trips we took all worked out very well in excellent sunshine (late October)...the 15 minute walk along the lovely promenade from the hotel to Interlaken Ost station was a pleasure. Thanks again...most others kind of gave Interlaken low marks as a base...happy we listened to you, old boy!

Here are some selected pix of our stay...use "slide show" to view. (I sort of went overboard on the fall foliage which was quite dramatic)

stu tower

http://picasaweb.google.com/stuarttower/SwitzerlandBernerOberland2009#

tower - thanks for the thank you and for the great photos!

And yes the mantra here, even for folks who are Swiss experts, is that Interlaken is terrible - don't linger there anymore than you have to to get to higher climes.

But like you i loved Interlaken and have stayed there many many times and used it as a base. And i suspect that most of the Interlaken denigrators really never get off the yes Hackneyed main street full of souvenir shops, etc. They never get to the Aare River and the wondrous path that you mention - this path goes for well over a mile right along the rushing river - in a verdant setting - i often walk it and use the benches for a picnic spot - yup can see the Jungfrau Massif in all its majesty from some points.

Interlaken off the main drag, which many tourists never get off, is as lovely as town in Switzerland IMO - and the Matten area on the south edge borders meadows and farms and also has stunning views of the ice-girdled Jungfrau Massif.

Interlaken is often maligned and every time i see those comments i think 'let me show you the real Interlaken'

And as a base it's great - if the weather is poor you are already down in town and able to head to say Bern quickly - or in the late afternoon just hop a steamer for a cruise on Lake Thun, etc.

Cheers

Stu - the photo entitle 'Hotel idyllic setting' of your Aare River banks hotel shows really how idyllic the Aare River there is and how different this part of Interlaken is from say the main and yes rather tacky commercial drag in town - where there is (or was) even a Hooters - a novel Hooters - an outdoor one just for warm weather.

BTW i note in your hotel picture the train bridge nearby - this looks like the one that leads to Interlaken-Ost train station and it has an interesting history - the train tracks cross the Aare twice in town, for no apparent reason as the tracks could have been built originally all along the South Bank of the Aare but there was (thru research for an article i once wrote on Interlaken) fierce competition then between a boat company who ferried folks from Thun/Spiez to Interlaken and when the train line came they purposefully laid the rails on bridges at very low clearance just to prervent boats from the possibility of continuing onto Interlaken-Ost station, making the train a better option. Too bad because combo cruises today on both lakes, Brienz and Thun, bookending Interlaken could be a hit i guess.

Anyway back to Jungfrau Region trains - though Passerine on another thread has threatened to trash this thread because of comments i made over in the Lounge. IMO what goes on in the Lounge stays there and should stay there and not be mixed with Travel News. We'll see and go on anyway.

Thanks for your comments and interesting facts about the bridge and river. The footbridge into town was very helpful and we walked it a few times...it is the track that goes on into Ost.

I avoid the lounge for precisely the same reasons...unsavory and sometimes iditoic, low-brow topics...you said the right thing to Passerine (it's a "she", by the way)

stu

Tower, Pal has called for everyone to boycott, in his own words, ALL THINGS SWISS.

Now, ALL THINGS SWISS would include Swiss trains, would it not. And what do you call someone who urges--in capital letters and exclamation points--you to boycott something and then in his next breath, rushes over and urges you to enjoy the very same thing he wants you to boycott?!

A hypocrite. A phony. A sham moralizer. A coward who lacks the courage of his convictions. He never really wanted a boycott of (in HIS words, not mine) ALL THINGS SWISS; he was simply showing off a fake morality.

If he had condemne the Swiss action but NOT called for a boycott of ALL THINGS SWISS, then I could understand and support his continuing to post advice on Swiss trains. But that's not what happened He wants YOU, stu, and everyone else here to boycott ALL THINGS SWISS.

And that is why I posted a simple, one line question here on this thread--asking why and how he could reconcile his strident call for a boycott of ALL THINGS SWISS and then pop right over here to advocate continuing to use Swiss trains. Of course, I quickly got my answer: Pal is a self-serving hypocrite.

By the way, here are Pal's exact words in a thread HE started and kept topping:

"Boycott Swiss Cheese and Nestle and Swiss Banks and all things Swiss!"

"I will now keep a wary eye open to xenophobic Swiss lurking everywhere"

"May the CERN halidon collider create a Black Hole that swallows up all of Switzerland."

"A Pox on the Swiss country!"

Now is the time to go to Switzerland. The Tourism Board will be bending over backwards to make sure that ALL tourists will feel welcome.

Well, come on now...Not ALL tourists are welcome are they? The Swiss have made that abundantly clear.

How would you know? Have you ever been here before? Do you know what it's like here? You claim never to have been in Switzerland yet you know who is welcomed or not? You can do better than that. Your dead brain cells are showing.

I never went to Nazi Germany (which had similar laws, and it would seem similar views), or have met any actual Nazi voters. However I would know that “all are welcome” wouldn’t be true there would it?

So what’s the difference? The Swiss have chosen to enact a blatantly racist law to persecute a minority they don’t like.

Please don’t tell me that the swiss welcome “one and all” when they clearly don’t.

Anna, in case you are still reading, I'll copy your questions and maybe add a bit to the answers given aabove.

<<<1. How much time do I need for chateau de Chillon? The best part of the day or half a day? Should I visit ether Broc Chocolate factory or Gruyeres on the same day or is it too much?
2. Where would you recommend going from Interlaken, if I’d like to combine it with the boat ride? To Brienz? Is Ballenberg worth a visit? Any other place along the way? Some waterfalls, perhaps? I’ll probably have half a day for this.
3. How long would you say your suggested route in the Alps take? Does the Eurorail pass cover those trains / cable cars and so on? Any reservations needed? Do they run often?
4. When we reach Schilthorn what weather should we expect in August? Would there be ice or snow?>>>

Chateau de Chillon is a wonderful castle, and you can freely explore it without a guide. Our teenage daughters loved it (as did I). You might have your aughter read up a bit on it, and then go find Byron's signature in the dungeion. I love this photo of it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Sun_Sets_on_Ch%C3%A2teau_de_Chillon.jpg

You can walk there and back from Montreus along the lake. Maybe complete the day by exploring the path, or smaller towns like Vevey, instead of trying to crowd in a Chocolate Train trip on the same day.

2. If you want to see waterfalls on a boat ride from Interlaken, make a stop at Giessbach on Brienzersee and wwalk or ride the funicular up to the hotel (which looks like a fairy castle):

www.giessbach.ch

You and your daughter might enjoy lunch on the deck there.

3. I'll leave Eurorail questions to others (we've only used the Swiss passes). But I will answer the rest of this question: you do not need reservations in the mountain regions of the Berner Oberland, and the trains and cablecars do run frequently---usually at least one per hour.

The Lauterbrunnen---Mürren---Gimmelwald loop makes a nice day, with time for walks in each place, and a visit to Trummelbach Falls as well.

It is good to learn to use the Swiss rail website to view the schedules:

www.rail.ch (in English).

4. The top of the Schilthorn often has snow lingering into August, but it probably won't be completely covered. The hike down is for experienced hikers with proper footwear. My kids love the shoe sign at the top---indicating "no stiletto heels". (You'll see what I mean when you get there.) The weather itself can be quite warm if it is a sunny day, although the wind can be chilly, so take jackets if you want to spend time outside there.

enzian - thanks for helping Anna, if still around, and i was interested in your take too

For the Eurail Question she posed - i have covered it elsewhere but will highlight it again here

3. How long would you say your suggested route in the Alps take? Does the Eurorail pass cover those trains / cable cars and so on? Any reservations needed? Do they run often?>

A Eurailpass will only cover you in full to Interlaken-Ost and then givd 25% off for destinations above that - including i believe the whole Lauterbrunnen-Murren-Gimmelwald-Lauterbrunnen Loop except for the postal bus back from Stechelberg to Lauterbrunnen, a few buck ride.

but a Eurailpass would indeed cover all other travels you envision - even the boats on Lake Brienz and trains to Interlaken-Ost - trains from Montreux to Interlaken (including the Golden Pass ones) and even boats on Lake Geneve if you want to float to Chillon. As i assume you may be traveling in France as well then yes a Eurailpass may be better than a Swiss Pass for you -but if only traveling in Switzerland and France then look at the France-Switzerland Eurailpass - good only in France and Switzerland and cheaper than a Eurailpass - but if traveling in another country then look at the 3-country Eurail Select Pass.

But if only going to Paris from Switzerland then still strongly consider the Swiss 4-consecutive day pass - even if you will only be there three days (and the 4th day could be going to the Swiss border in Basel for example en route to Paris)

Passerine...let's get this straight for this very informative thread only...I personally don't give a fat damn about who says what and how on the so-called lounge..that includes Pal's remarks, yours and anyone elses. I come here a few times a day on my forced respite, to give this very old man a break from writing/research chores... only to exchange travel information and ideas. The only thing I agreed on regarding your beef with Pal is simply that he proposes what goes on in the "lounge" stays in the lounge... and should not contaminate this resource of excellent travel information like this thread and so many others. So it's time to go back to the coffee-klatch, politically-stoked lounge to berate Pal and anyone else, and he will do the same I'm sure.

Stu Tower rozstu1@aol.com (that's why email addresses "real names" should be a requirement here..so people can take this nonsense and continue it off board. Katie H. please take note.

Stu - 'this very OLD man'? Now i may be an old fart but i'm not a very old fart - but anyway words of wisdom.

Anyway back to the Swiss trains thing - wrapping up Anna's questions, which are of general interest even if she is not back.

. How long would you say your suggested route in the Alps take? Does the Eurorail pass cover those trains / cable cars and so on? Any reservations needed? Do they run often?
The Lauterbrunnen-Murren-Schilthorn-Gimmelwald-Stechlberg-Lauterbrunnen Loop i suppose?
Well without the Schilthorn detour actual travel time for the Loop from and back to Lauterbrunnen is only about two hours travel time, including time changing conveyances. I have encountered lines at Lauterbrunnen for the cableway up to Grutsch Alp but i suppose the new gondolas can carry many more so the old lines for the old funicular could be much less,i presume at least.
And the Schilthorn detour would entail another two hours - about 30 or so mins each way with an hour at most up there, unless you dine in the world's highest revolving restaurant.

4. When we reach Schilthorn what weather should we expect in August? Would there be ice or snow?
Yes in summer there will be ice right at the outdoor platform you can mush on IME

5. Any scenic route you’d recommend for journey to France?
6. By the way, it’s possible that the first night in Montreux will be on August 1st, The Swiss National Day. What should I expect? Would there be fireworks or parades? How can I find out? The latter i would not know, never being in Switzerland on their National Holiday, Aug 1 - but i do understand that yes there are fireworks and celebrations many many places.

Now for a scenic route to France - yes i have one in mind but it will take longer than the straight shot Geneva/Lausanne/Bern/Basel/Zurich direct TGV trains to Paris - it's the up and over the Alps route via Chamonix

Next the Chamonix route to France

'this very OLD man'? Now i may be an old fart but i'm not a very old fart - but anyway words of wisdom.

Just two months away from 81 IS very old, Palenq...I'm sure you get what I'm driving at in that post..she (Passerine) has done just what you wanted to avoid...bringing the lounge clap trap to this and other informative travel threads ...just does not belong...and accordingly, I called her out for it. I'm puzzled why a well-traveled, very knowledgable and intelligent guy like you spends any appreciable amount of time in that den of soap opera addicts.

Happy that you appreciate the setting on the River Aare...people are missing out on the tranquil beauty of it all.

stu

stu - again thanks again - i am 61 not 81 and when i travel in Europe i feel like 19, the age when i first went, again. And yes i take your advice about the Lounge to heart - better ways to entertain myself in my retirement than that.

A SCENIC ROUTE TO FRANCE
So if Anna has the time rather than going to Paris via Lausanne, Basel, Bern, etc on direct TGV trains then taking the sideline up and over the Alps to Chamonix and then going onto Paris (or elsewhere in France) is awesomely scenic - to do this you take a train from Interlaken to Spiez, transfer to the mainline to Brig/Visp and then take a train to Martigny where you hop on the Martigny-Chamonix (MC) narrow-gauged mountain climbing train that takes you to Chamonix.

The initial ascent from Martigny is thrilling as the train steeply climbs out of the Rhone River Valley along an all-too-narrow for some ledge overlooking the Rhone Valley hundreds of feet below. Soon you are in the high Alps and then before Chamonix awesome glaciers practically descent to the tracks.

Anyway though this route would require an overnight in Chamonix to be practical it is a really scenic way to France.

Transports Martigny-Région SA - [ Translate this page ]
Anciennement compagnie des chemins de fer Martigny-Orsières et Martigny-Châtelard. Chemins de fer, lignes de bus et cars pour excursion.
www.tmrsa.ch/

The web site of the train line running the Mont Blanc Express, a tourist train a la the Glacier Express between Martigny and Chamonix - and also the regular normal trains that roll about every hour - some requiring a simple change of trains at the French frontier.

Click on the English at the top for an English version - somewhere you will see scintillating photos of the train to Chamonix from Martigny (railpasses valid - Swiss rail for the whole trip to Chamonix even though much of the line is in France - Eurailpasses valid in Switzerland and France valid the whole way as well.

INTERLAKEN-JUNGFRAU REGION TRAINS AND TRANSPORTS

GETTING UP INTO THE HILLS FROM INTERLAKEN

Trains for the hills - to fabled places like Grindelwald, Lauterbrunnen, Wengen and Murren all depart from Interlaken-Ost (East) station - the end of the mainline in Interlaken. Interlaken has two main stations - Interlaken-West station smack in the town center and, less than a mile to the east Interlaken-Ost, where the standard-gauge railway ends and narrow-gauged railways take over (smaller track widths) so all must change at Interlaken-Ost and this station is a pleasant, to me at least, hubbub of trains coming in from all points like Zurich, Bern, Lucerne, Spiez, the Golden Pass from Monreux, etc and folks all get out and dash over to the platform where the mountain-climbing tiny BOB (Berner Oberland Bahn) trains take over - and it's a multi-national multi-ethnic crowd of foreingers and Swiss hikers/skiiers, etc.
People-watching at its finest IMO.

There is only one railway route that goes up from here - with trains to Grindelwald and Lauterbrunnen, from which two Alpine villages even tinier trains keep climbing- to Wengen, Kleine Scheidegg (jumping off point for trains to the ice-girdled Jungfraujoch station, said to be the highest train station in Europe.

Expectations and anticipations are high amongst the foreign tourists who have never been up to the Jungfrau Region before- an experience of a lifetime awaits.

NEXT - Nitty-gritty on the various trains mentioned above and a word of warning so you do not end up in the Lauterbrunnen Valley instead of the Grindelwald Valley!

Super Coop

GRINDELWALD-LAUTERBRUNNEN TRAINS SPLIT-

If going to Grindelwald or Lauterbrunnen on the train from Interlaken-Ost be sure to peruse the signs on each train car indicating that train carriage's destination as these trains after a few minutes split - at Zweilutschen (sp?), with half of train then heading up to the Lauterbrunnen Valley and the other half heading to the Grindelwald Valley - everytime i take these trains perplexed folks are told by conductors they are in the wrong half of the train for their destination and half to change cars at Zweilutschen!

Dear Palenque,
How does one go from Grindelwald to Lauterbrunnen without back tracking to Interlaken.
In the map, the connecting lines to Kl Scheidegg and Wengen and to Lauterbrunnen, are red dotted. This may mean that they are at 50% discount for Swiss Pass holder.
Are these connections free on Swiss Rail pass?

You had mentioned that children under 16 years travel free with the parents. Is it true?
The website showed a reduced rate for children under 16.
Am a bit confused. Was it for children travelling without the parents?

Fascist country - efficient trains?

Coincidence?

From Grindelwald to Lauterbrunnen you have to backtrack not all the way to Interlaken but to Zweilutschen (sp?), the point where the trains coming up from Interlaken split - catching the trains coming up, of course.

Swiss Pass covers 100% to Wengen, Grindelwald and Lauterbrunnen but to Kleine Scheidegg it is only 50% off with a Swiss Pass (from either Grindelwald or Lauterbrunnen)

Is you buy a Swiss Pass then you can get a free Family Pass that gives children (must be with a parent - not a grandparent or aunt, etc) a free pass - and the kids always go free - even on lines that only get 50% off like Wengen to Kleine Scheidegg - kids never pay a penny. Children traveling without parents yes probably get the rate you mention.

CW -please keep you diatribes out of pure travel threads and leave them in the Lounge. I ask you seriously to do this. Thanks

Palenque,

thanks for this amazing amount of information. I am considering "doing something in Switzerland" for a few days next June, I am sharing an apartment in Paris with a friend for a month and I have my 10 days out of the apartment and am thinking about a train journey through Switzerland. I will digest all this info over the holiday period.

I haven't read all the posts - yet. but if you are still around can you quickly answer which would be the most scenic at that time of year. I would be coming from Paris.

Many thanks,
Schnauzer

Schnauzer

Me again Palenque,

I have now read the first thread you wrote on the train trips through Switzerland. Brienz seems to be quite a popular base with lots to see and do around the area. I will be coming from Paris and returning to Paris and will be thinking of staying around 6/7 days. would this be too long in this one area? How easy is it to get to and from Paris to Brienz?

I will start searching trains etc tomorrow.

Thanks for any help
Schnauzer

If palenque isn't around, I can try to answer.

Paris to Brienz is an easy trip of approximately 6 hours. The most direct route is from Paris-Est to Basel by TGV, then change to a local train to Interlaken Ost. From there you can choose either lake boat or train for the short final leg to Brienz.

Brienz is well-located to see the area. It is 1 h 40 min from Luzern by a scenic train ride, less than that to Bern, and only an hour or so from the mountain villages of the Bernese Oberland, such as Wengen. And directly across the lake is a place I've always wanted to visit, an historic inn in the sytle of a castle:

www.giessbach.ch

The waterfall behind the hotel looks stunning and well worth a visit.

You are also close to the Ballenburg museum, the "Sherlock Holmes waterfall" (Reichenback Falls) near Meiringen, and the Brienz-Rothorn steam train:

http://www.brienz-rothorn-bahn.ch/en.html

hi palenque
just starting reading the excellent posts on swiss train travel. don't know if you would be willing to answer a few specific questions directly, but if so, i would appreciate an email to "xman@alumni.nd.edu" so i can reply and ask you a few things.
thanks
michael

schanuzer - Enzian, one of Fodor's Swiss experts IMO- has given great insights. I will only add that if basing in Brienz and for 6-7 days then strongly investigate the 8-straight-day Swiss Rail Pass-it covers all transports to Brienz (from Basel or other French border station) and all the lake boats, postal buses, etc. - the pass is good all the way up to Wengen, Grindelwald, Murren and Gimmelwald - things not covered, like aerial cableways that go only to mountain tops you usually get 50% off. But from Brienz Lucerne, a lovely city set on a stunningly gorgeous fjord-like Lake Lucerne, is an easy day trip via the Brunig Pass scenic rail line (part of the fabled Golden Pass route) - again Swiss Pass valid as well (and on boats on Lake Lucerne, to me Switzerland's most awesome lake- so Lucerne and a boat ride there is to me a wondrous day.

Thanks to Enzian and Palenque for all the fab information. Will digest it all and make a decision soon.

Schnauzer

xman on Jan 7, 10 at 9:41am
hi palenque
just starting reading the excellent posts on swiss train travel. don't know if you would be willing to answer a few specific questions directly, but if so, i would appreciate an email to "xman@alumni.nd.edu" so i can reply and ask you a few things.
thanks
michael

Michael- i would rather you post your questions here so that as if often the case other folks well versed in Swiss travel may be able to add info i may not be familiar with

And also others who read the questions and answers may benefit from answers to questions you may pose.

So please feel free to pose any questions here and I and others hopefully will try to give our best to answer.

Cheers and if nd.edu refers to Notre Dame and not North Dakota i will still try to answer your queries!

Hi Pal and Enzian

Thank you for so much for all the information on this thread

We a retired couple in late 60`s we will be staying in Gland near Geneva from 12th March to 9th April

I have been looking at the rail passes and not sure which would suit us

We will go to Paris for a few days and we plan to visit Blois i was going to do these on separate trips but it does not seem easy to get from Geneva to Blois by train also would like to go to Chamonix Zermatt well we want to do as much as we can in the time

I have been looking at rail passes we could get a Swiss Pass and just pay for the train trips in France
The Swiss pass includes all the transport in the towns which we could use

We will use the pass most days some very long days some just
for short trips

I have been looking at all the train trips around Switzerland that you have mentioned could we do a lot of these on day trips ?? or should we plan a round Switzerland trip with a few nights here and there
To keep costs down we like to do day trips if we can even if it means long days

Also will we be able to get a few boat trips or is it too early in the season with the Swiss pass it includes a lot of museums where we could visit if the weather is not good


We have been to Switzerland once just to Lucerne and have been up to Mt Titlis which was great

Every one is talking about the Jungfrau it is not covered by any pass it is worth the money to go up there and could we do it in a day from Gland

I know weather wise it is not the best time to go but we have an offer of a house so we have to go then

Thanks again for all the great information

bmr - i just noted your questions, etc. and will duly try to give insight and opinion on them - currently i have some pressing matters to attend to but in a few days. And of course i solicit anyone to comment as well.

But i can say a Swiss Pass will be a great deal for you and yes just pay for the French trains (www.voyages-sncf.com has great online discounts for many trains) - If you marshall your French travel into the same days then you may look at the 21-consecutive-day pass - the per day cost is so cheap it is practically a no-brainer IMO

bmr
From Wengen I think I paid 104 CHF to go up to the top of Europe. I really enjoyed it. I am going back to Wengen in September and I will return to the Jungfraujoch. It does seem a bit expensive, but I loved it.

Swiss Pass would cover you in full to Wengen, then 50% off to Kleine Scheidegg, then 25% off the final Kl Scheidegg to the Jungfraujoch summit portion - so your pass will cover some of the fare for the Jungfraujoch train, which has to be the most expensive train line in the world per km. From Gland it would be a possible day trip - about 4hrs each way though i suspect.

IMO the Jungfrau Region, from Interlaken up is the highlight of Switzerland for the average tourist so i would encourage staying a few nights in this fantastic area- Wengen is one smallish town base it seems everyone over 35 or so just falls in love with. Cars are not allowed in town -you must take the train up there from Lauterbrunnen - Swiss Pass covers all travel Gland to Wengen 100%

Hi Pal
I have read through all your posts and they are a great help
We will get the Swiss pass and will look at staying a few days in Wengen and try and do as much as we can
Thanks

hi palenQ
ok, i will take your suggestion and post my questions here, although i believe it might be better as a separate post. i am taking my wife to switzerland for 8 days in june. our main goal is to see the beautiful scenery, visit/stay in quaint villages, maybe do a little hiking (not strenuous), and get up in the mountains. we are flying into zurich. here are my questions:
1)can we do what we want without renting a car and just go by train?
2)looking for help on creating an itinery.
3)which towns should we stay, for how long in each?
4)looking to create a great train schedule route with a return to zurich
5)we love b&b's as opposed to hotels. any cozy b&b suggestions would be very welcome.

thank you in advance for any answers to the above.

xman- i will answer your queries to my best abilities but i do think you should also make a separate post so that many more Swiss knowledgeable folks will respond - few people read long threads like this and just will not see it

So please make a separate post on the Europe forum (this forum) and put some nice title like 'Help in Planning 8 Days in Switzerland' or whatever and you will get many more responses

But i will give my replies soon.

xman

No Switzerland is one place where you not only do not need a car but to have one can be a liability - esp if you want to visit the Alpine wonderland the Jungfrau Region, which to me fulfills your criteria to a T - i would spend most of your time in the Jungfrau Region, where there is a plethora of things to do and sweet day trips to take and say another few in say the Lucerne area and a full day in Zurich coming and going.

The Jungfrau Region (a k a Berner Oberland) is to me the essence of the vision of Switzerland that is etched in our minds' eye when pondering a visit to this gorgeous Alpine country - looking for a small village then consider Wengen, a perennial favorite of Fodorites - and the accommodations there are largely family-run intimate hotels and guest houses - and this is one place where cars are not even let in - you must park your car far below this village perched a few thousand feet above the Lauterbrunnen Valley and take the train here.

For 8-days IMO you cannot beat the 8-straight day Swiss Pass that would cover virtually all your travels - city buses and trams, trains, lake boats (some sweet boat rides in the Jungfrau (Interlaken) area BTW), postal buses - practically everything in Switzerland that moves.

I'll be back with more itinerary possibilities for you in this area - some sweet easy enough hikes - some lake boat possibilities - the Ballenberg Open-Air Museum - Lucerne and Lake Lucerne, etc.

Cheers

)looking to create a great train schedule route with a return to zurich>

OK

Zurich direct to Interlaken-Ost; hop train to mountain village like Wengen - about 4 hours all told to Wengen, including change time

Wengen down to Interlaken-Ost and then hop the Brunig Pass scenic train that first goes along the shores of idyllic Lake Brienz to Meiringen, from where it starts ascending to the Brunig Pass and then slowly descends towards Lucerne - passing some lovely Alpine lakes and towns until it hits the shores of fjord-like Lake Lucerne into Lucerne.

Make Lucerne you base for a few days and then hop the short train ride right to Zurich Airport.

Now that's the basic rail loop - next posting i'll fill in choices of things to do from each base - say Wengen or other Jungfrau region base, and Lucerne

From Wengen you are well positioned to do the Jungfraujoch train, to Europe's highest train station and a sea of ice and glaciers right by the station. There are also dog sled rides at times, paths you can walk over to reach the glacier and always snow - usually about 32 degrees up top so bundle up.

From Wengen take the train to Kleine Scheidegg, where you change to the Jungfraujoch trains that go mainly thru tunnels to the Jungfraujoch station - the trains do make two stops however where viewing balconies have been hewn out of the cliff face and of course the views down over Interlaken, etc are breath-taking.

Up top is also an ice grotto - series of ice caves you can walk thru - blue in hew, restaurant and activities for kids.

Coming down you can get off at Kleine Schiedegg and do a lovely easy few-hour hike on trails wide enough for 4-wheel vehicles and mountain bikers to Wengen - with scintillating views over the deep Lauterbrunnen valley the whole way.

so that could well be one fine day.

Another sweet excursion from Wengen first takes an aerial cable car that swoops you up to the Mannlichen, a renown outlook point that lies some few thousand feet smack above Wengen.

From the Mannlichen - a rocky point - you can have a 360-degree vista - over Interlaken and its lakes bookending it on the east and west as well as practically all of the Grindelwald and Lauterbrunnen Valleys - one of the few vantage points to offer birds' eyes looks into each valley.

And then from Mannlichen you can do the classic few-mile stroll over wide fairly flat paths - paths that you will even see baby carriages on - to Kleine Scheidegg, jumping off point for the Jungfraujoch trains or trains down to Wengen or Grindelwald.

The Mannlichen is the celebrated viewpoint of the Jungfrau Region and IMO is not to be missed.

xman - my very favorite excursion in the Jungfrau Region is one that goes from Lauterbrunnen via a thrilling aerial cableway up some few thousand feet to Grtuschalp, where you board a train that rolls along the cliff edge to Murren - at Murren you can then take a really long aerial cable car to the fabled Schlilthorn, an icy outpost on a large spit of rock in the middle of nowhere but snow, ice and jagged Alpine peaks - there is a revolving restaurant here (made famous in James Bond's On Her Majesty's Service (i think that was the one) that was partly filmed here.

Anyway take the cableway back to Murren then keep going on the cableway to Gimmelwald, an isolated tiny farming hamlet again in a surrealistically gorgeous setting - with the awe-inspiring ice-girdled Jungfrau Massif just across a deep valley. Gimmelwald it totally unique for the area IME

Then from Gimmelwald take a really thrilling aerial cableway that plunges down to the Lauterbrunnen Valley - from the lower station postal buses will take you back to Lauterbrunnen, for rail links to Wengen, Interlaken or Grindelwald.

This is my favorite excursion in all of the Jungfrau Region and if you have a Swiss Pass all transport is covered 100%, including the aerial cableways - except the Murren to Schilthorn detour, which is 50% off with a pass.

If you want to add an easy stroll into the above Loop from Lauterbrunnen-Murren-Gimmelwald-Lauterbrunnen then instead of hopping the cable car from Murren to Gimmelwald stroll down the paved footpath linking these two - it's perhaps a mile and a half and downhill - not a strenuous trek - and as you walk you see the deep Lauterbrunnen Valley on your left.

Or to tweek the above loop a bit with another very easy and very flat stroll then instead of hopping the postal bus from Stechelberg, where the cableway from Murren/Gimmelwald comes down, then do a really sweet 2-mile walk along a gurgling stream back to Lauterbrunnen - passing by old farmhouses, waterfalls and entering Lauterbrunnen right by Staubbach Falls - a really really high waterfall that tumbles right down from Murren to the valley floor - you can walk right up to its base.

Will work more on the fantastic Jungfrau Region trains and conveyances - Next- A Novel Way Into/Out of the Jungfrau (Interlaken, Grindelwald, etc) area - by postal bus to connect with other train lines, including the Glacier Express, without taking a train from Interlaken itself - but a thrilling postal bus jaunt up thrilling Alpine passes.

PalenQ (or others) - How far ahead do we need to make the required reservations for Golden Pass and Glacier Express routes? We are traveling in mid-late September. Am I correct in my understanding that you can only reserve first class seats in the panorama cars if one has a first class rail pass? Or can you pay some sort of extra fee for first class plus the reservation fee for just certain portions of the route? Once reservations are made, can they be changed should we be delayed on an earlier part of the trip? Is there a fee?

drchris - Am I correct in my understanding that you can only reserve first class seats in the panorama cars if one has a first class rail pass>

incorrect i believe - if you have a 2nd class pass you would have to pay the difference between the first and 2nd class fares - at least that's the standard rule in Europe about sitting in first class with a second class ticket or pass.

How far in advance? Give Byron a call at BETS 800-441-2387 as that is what i would do as he seems to know everything or will find out - i do know you can reserve quite far in advance or try the web sites of either train - i think www.swisstravelsystem.com has links - i believe on the Golden Pass site you can make a reservation without a pass or ticket - having to have one or the other when you show up but i have not tried this. The Golden Pass is not nearly as problematic to book IME as the Glacier Express, which attracts many many tour groups. I believe the Glacier Express now has observation cars in both classes, after the train cars were totally revamped a few years back. You can also reserve thru U.S. agents like BETS and if you do do so the same time you buy your pass to avoid a separate mailing fee - ditto for raileurope.com
Portions of the Golden Pass route do not require reservations - like between Interlaken-Ost and Lucerne and Interlaken-Ost and Zweissimmen and these, when i have inquired in Interlaken, were readily available even the same day. The Zweissimmen to Montreux portion, the most scenic IMO - formerly called the Panoramic Express, is where you have the really fancy cars in first class - with seats that swivel and this sector should be booked in advance to guarantee availability. But do not forget that there are also regular non-Golden Pass trains hourly on all three segments and of course the scenery is the same.
Glacier Express charges a steep supplement for passes and regular tickets, in either class - about $35 i believe regardless of distance traveled. The Golden Pass is much lower.

drchris-one reason for booking the Montreux-Zweissimmen portion of the Golden Pass far in advance is to get one of the vaunted VIP seats - about eight seats at the front and end of the Golden Pass train - these seats are next to and above the driver's cabin so you can simulate driving the train!

A NOVEL WAY INTO OR OUR OF THE INTERLAKEN AREA -By Iconic Swiss Postal Buses

Besides the two main access routes - by rail (or road) from Spiez or via Brienz after coming over the Brunig Pass, there is another means of access that involves a thrilling Swiss Postal bus ride/
From Meiringen at the far end of Lake Brienz - iconic Swiss postal buses - one of two routes that corkscrew up long grades to either the Grimsel Pass or Susten Pass that take you to stops on the Glacier Express rail line - via the Susten Pass to Goschenen station, from where a steep shuttle train levitates quickly up to Andermatt, which sits atop the Gotthard rail tunnel deep below it - or from Goschenen itself you can hop on the Zurich-Lugano-Milan mainline. So a novel way to reach Interlaken region from say Lugano would be to get off at Goschenen and take the fantastic Susten Pass bus down to Meiringen and trains to Interlaken, along idyllic Lake Brienz.

MORE ON ALPINE POSTAL BUSES FROM MEIRINGEN

Swiss Passes are valid on these buses, much like most post buses in Switzerland but there is a 10 Swiss Franc Alpine surcharge you must pay at the ticket window in Meiringen or on the bus if the ticket kiosk is not open.
Buses stop at least once en route near the summits - the Grimsel Pass bus stops right on top of a huge barrage and lake.
Swiss postal buses are iconic - their retro yellow bodies and most of all to me their gooo-gah-goo-gah loud horns the driver sounds before entering the blind zone of a hairpin turn.
Luggage is stored under the bus - there could be a slight charge for this - i do not remember - but passengers load and unload their own luggage IME
In Interlaken stop by the post office on the main drag for info on these buses.
TBC
Seasons- reservations - Grindelwald bus

Hello again. I am still in the planning of this once in a lifetime trip.
Bt I will be taking it with my husband as my mother was unable to travel to visit this year due to health complications.


We have been thinking about ending up with 4-5 nights in Muerren at the Alpenrose, or in wengen?

Landing first at GVA, seeing and staying in the the Montreux/Vevey area 2 nights,

checking out gruyere and chateau chillon

perhaps overnighting in interlaken?..later taking the train to Lucerne.(overnight here or move on?)

have not looked at passes yet in depth..

I am not sure we want to be moving around every day up and down once we are settled in muerren or wengen for 3-4-or 5 nights. Or is that the logical thing to DO when you are there...use the trains/ gondolas, etc to go on hikes.. or does one just walk from the hotel?

also.. would it be very restrictive to take half board at the alpenrose? are there nice restaurants around enough to make it worthwhile to eat out..

Any suggestions?

We are not serious hikers but are looking forward to being active on this otherwise leisurely holiday.

re luggage.. seems a suitcase will be uncomfortable. I have never used a large backpack .. but would this be the most advisable? We have a few from our kids..

we have never done an "all train" trip. we are very "car" oriented but this particular trip it seems unnecessary.

i meant hotel alpenRUH in muerren. But now am also looking into wengen.. any preferences from regulars to the area?

re luggage.. seems a suitcase will be uncomfortable. I have never used a large backpack .. but would this be the most advisable? We have a few from our kids.. >

Yes suitcases - at least ones without wheels - are not conducive to train travel - always needing to go up and down stairs and changing trains like at Interlaken-Ost to the smaller gauged mountain trains, etc.

Backpacks are great but i would only take one now that has wheels as this makes it so so easy - mine can even climb and descend stairs - i can walk miles with my wheeled backpack in tow - in Murren or Wengen you have electric taxi carts but it is easy in these small town to wheel your backpack or suitcase to the hotel.

lincasanova - i will try to address several of your questions shortly. supposed the weather in Barcelona is heating up?

Well.. we are here in Valencia and it is warming up a LITTLE but nights and mornings still chilly and cold winds coming off the <pyrenees it seems. Soon we will all be complaining of the heat.. I am sure!

So, medium rolling suitcase should be OK then.. good.

I am now hoping to be abel to be 2 weeks roaming and see the 15 day pass is really the way to go. I shall see what husband says.. and would like to start locking myself into something butIt turns out now that our renters are leaving the beginning of August, so.. hopefully we can still get away.

Seems there is always something but I am determined to take part of this trip SOON! Your explanations are os detailed. I have read them now at least twice and everything is starting to make sense.. checking the map against suggestions.

Thanks always for the tips. You are a wealth of information.

We are not serious hikers but are looking forward to being active on this otherwise leisurely holiday.>

Well from Murren you have an easy yet exhilarating hike down to Gimmelwald, which you should take in - very unusual place out in the middle of nowhere - a nowhere of snow-capped peaks and views down into two deep valleys on top of which this farming hamlet (tourists seem more farmed now than animals, alas). Anyway less than two miles downhill from Murren and you can hop the cablecar (free with a Swiss Pass) back up to Murren or continue on the really thrilling aerial cableway to Stechelberg - dropping so fast that Nervous Nellies should stand in the middle so they can't see the plunge!
And once at Stechelberg you can do another really sweet and gentle flat walk on paths the few miles to Lauterbrunnen - along a gurgling stream and the ice-girdled Jungfraujoch Massif looming high above - just before Lauterbrunnen you pass Trummelbach Falls - the roaring cascade inside the rocks that is said to be the sole drain of the northside of the Jungfraujoch Massif. I believe Swiss Passes get free entry - like at 400+ museums and sights all over the country but am not sure - yet these falls are a most memorable sight. Just before Lauterbrunnen the path passes Stechleberg Falls - really high and ribbon like though later in summer it may be a mere trickle.

Any suitcase that you can manage to drag up and down steps and hoist into overhead racks if needed - rarely is IME will do. And the Swiss Railways do have for i think 12 francs or so a baggage delivery where you check your heavy bag in say Interlaken and pick it up in Montreux for instance - you can even check your bags all the way to your departure airport and vice versa - and they arrive the same day you do.

I only spent one day in Valencia ever but thought it to be a gem - the historic old town centre and now they also have the new architecture, which i have not seen.

I hope you make it here one day! It has changed so much in the past decade.. we can hardly believe it ourselves.

You certainly spell it out very clearly. It is hard to know, though, what one can do in one day, especially if we stop for lunch somewhere along the way.

Any thoughts on wengen versus muerren? both seem nice and get good reviews.. so I suspect it is a toss up.

From your experience, is it a good idea to take the half board at these mountain hotels like in muerren ( alpenruh) or a similar one in wengen? Or will it limit us by not being able to try other places?( which is what i am thinking in general terms, but on the other hand, they do serve til 9 pm.. so we woudln't be too hindered time-wise and it might be nice to come "home" and have dinner where we sleep.

Thanks for the tips. Closer to the date, once I have our tickets, I am sure I will have a few more questions iI haven't been abel to find answers to in other posts.

From your experience, is it a good idea to take the half board at these mountain hotels like in muerren ( alpenruh) or a similar one in wengen? Or will it limit us by not being able to try other places?( which is what i am thinking in general terms, but on the other hand, they do serve til 9 pm.. so we woudln't be too hindered time-wise and it might be nice to come "home" and have dinner where we sleep>

I think you have answered your own question - the pros and cons - i think the pros outweigh the cons and do you have to do the demi-pension everyday? I enjoy Swiss hotels breakfasts - usually in a nice big room and buffet style but you see the other guests as well - and more importantly these guargantuan breakfasts keep me filled until late in the afternoon - with food prices being so high in Switzerland, esp in restaurants the demi-pension could save money as well and you also feel more relaxed in your hotel restaurant - getting to know the wait people, etc. - kind of like being in the family.
So i think it's a good deal for many ways - esp if you can eat as late as 9pm - plenty of time to get back from day trips.

Murren vs Wengen - gotta run to catch my train right now but i will give my 2 cents next.

MURREN vs WENGEN

Though both are spectacularly situated for most i think Wengen would be better situated for doing excursions from one base.
Murren is really isolated as to get down from there and back up after a day trip means taking the aerial cableway and electric train from Lauterbrunnen - about an hour or so but Wengen is just a short 20-min or less train ride from Lauterbrunnen.
And though Murren is great for doing Schilthorn unless you want just to hike - and Murren is great for that the more interesting things in the Jungfrau Region - say the Jungfraubahn and the tremendous Mannlichen to Kleine Scheidegg flat ridge walk is just a short gondola or train ride from Wengen.
And even getting down to Interlaken is much quicker from Wengen than Murren (also easier when moving luggage as only one change of train - in Lauterbrunnen whereas to Murren you take the cableway and then change to train - so say if you want to hop down to Interlaken to say do a later afternoon boat ride it's must quicker from Wengen.
Wengen IMO is much better situated for the typical traveler.

as usual.. thank you so much for your time and observations.

SCENIC RAIL/BUS/BOAT ROUTES INTO AND OUT OF INTERLAKEN AND THE JUNGFRAU REGION

I did start on this way above but will treat it as a new topic - the various ways on accessing Interlaken - scenic ways and novel ways - though it is hard to take a route that is not scenic.

SCENIC ROUTES TO/FROM INTERLAKEN

MAINLINE TRAINS VIA SPIEZ
Either coming from the south, via the Lotschberg Tunnel/Brig/Visp/Italy route or from the north via Bern or from the west, via the Golden Pass Route from Montreux, on Lake Geneva

THE BRUNIG PASS ROUTE
From Lucerne over the Brunig Pass to Interlaken - also part of the Golden Pass route.

POSTAL BUSES FROM MEIRINGEN
To the south and southeast - awesome Alpine journeys on Switzerland's iconic postal buses - to hook up with the Glacier Express route at Andermatt or the Zurich-Lugano-Milan mainline - the Gotthard Tunnel route.

BY LAKE BOAT
Any of the above access routes can be combined with a boat ride on either Lake Thun or Lake Brienz

BY POSTAL BUS TO THUN
Along the northern shore of Lake Thun

TBC - in order of listing

PS any questions anytime on Swiss transports are appreciated and i will attempt to answer!

AND ONE MORE UNIQUE ACCESS ROUTE TO THE JUNGFRAU REGION
I forgot to list -
THE GRINDELWALD BUS - a tinier than normal bus that plies the narrow paved paths from Grindelwald that goes up to the Grosse Scheidegg and then plummets thru a bucolic valley to Meiringen, where you can hook up with Swiss Postal Buses to Andermatt, etc.

Well for the few profiles this may fit it is a great deal - so if traveling in Switzerland on the rail with at least one kid under 16 here's the deal:

SWISS FAMILY RAIL SALE
If anyone reading this thread is considering a rail trip around Switzerland within six months of April 27, 2010 and is traveling with at least one child then there is, for one week only, a super-duper Switzerland Family Rail Sale just announced for passes bought in the U.S. before tne end of April 27, 2010:

Only on 3-day Swiss Saver Flexipasses and 8-consecutive-day passes - first adult pays full price - 2nd adult pays 50% AND also includes:

*** A free ticket up and down Mt Pilatus (by Lucerne) from either Krens or Alpnachstad or mixing these two - go up one way and down the other

*** Two free rides on Mt Pilatus summer tobagganing run- Switzerland's longest summer tobaggoning run (1,350 metre long steel chrome channel

*** One free fast baggage transfer (send bags on trains without you - retrieve them by 5 or 6pm at destination - usually costs i think 20 Swiss francs per bag

So a super deal if buying one of those passes anyway and traveling with at least one kid - mandatory to have one kid - kids get free Family Passes, as usual, and go free on all trains, boats, etc.

I just found this and it is perfect for my trip. there was no where that stated you must travel with kids. I purchased it for just 2 adults and it went through just fine. Site says you may request the child's pass but not necessary.

patricia - The Rail Europe site does say under terms and conditions of this "Family Rail Sale" special: "Valid for 2 adults traveling with their children" - so hopefully you will not have a problem activating the pass in Switzerland sans kids -i suspect you will not but would not be 100% sure of that - the Swiss always just glance at my pass when activating it and on trains as well - just glance. So a great deal all in all!

Ok -- guess I will have to take my chances!

On which site exactly did you find this? I was scrolling around www.myswitzerland.com and couldn't see anything exactly like this.

Is myswitzerland.com an American agency - the special is only for passes sold in the U.S. - thru RailEurope or its agents. I just called Byron at BETS (800-441-2387), who thru years of dealing with him for passes seems to know everything, to ask about the no child possibility - he said on a family pass the person ordering is to put the child's or childs' names on the pass and if someone ordered the pass like patricia did and no one asked for kids names that is the way Family Passes (always free for kids under 16) work. I would assume patricia bought the pass from RailEurope online but could be any other agency - but again they never ask for the actual kids names so any problems would come at validation in Switzerland if the validating clerk asks about the kids and from conductors if they even care. so i guess you could easily order the special family pass without kids just by saying you had kids as no names are taken.

And i was told that each adult gets 50% off the solo adult pass price and not what i wrote initially - that one adult pays full fare and the other gets 50% off - both get 50% off not a Saverpass price but a solo pass price - in any case a much better deal even than i outlined originally - saving $100 p.p. it seems or about over the Saverpass price p.p.

thanks.

posted too quickly. The swiss website directed me to www.myswitzerland.com when I put in US resident. That is how I got there.. I think.

I'm envious. Any chance I can get the deal, not being a US. resident. I'm in Australia but will be buying a 3 day Swiss flexi saver pass for my trip in Sep. My kids are not going though, only me and my hubby.

The list of most scenic route above had Bernina Express as no. 1. I'm trying to decide whether to go for Glacier Express or Bernina Express. Any suggestion?
Also, I read about how beautiful it is on Glacier Express from St. Moritz to Zermatt. Can you please comment if it's just as spectacular the other way round ie. Zermatt to St.Moritz?
Thanks!

appletan - only residents of Switzerland and Liechtenstein are not eligible to use Swiss Passes - everyone else can - contact RailEurope in Australia - i think they have an office there - or go to www.raileurope.com and put in Australia and see what comes up. STA Travel, on or near college campuses in Australia (i believe Australia because it once was an Australian company before being bought out by Swiss banking interets) should also sell the passes. That said RailEurope in the US (and their many agents) may be offering this only to U.S. orders, which you could do but i do not hazzard to know their mailing fee to Down Under. And then you also have the matter of not knowing how the Swiss will treat the pass at activation sans kids.

I will answer you second question shortly. Got a train to catch!

Rail Europe - Travel by train in Italy, France, Switzerland, Spain ...
Train Tickets for all destinations in Europe, with a large offer, attractive prices, and superior service. All high speed trains, Eurail, Britrail Country ...
www.raileurope.com.au/?visitor_country=AU

Try this Rail Europe Australian site - RE is part owned by the Swiss Railways and thus is the entity that originates the Swiss Pass, which it sells thru many other retail outlets - prices are universal for each country but mailing fees may be added on, the only possible difference in price.

See if they have the Family special that expires after April 27, 2010.

I got my passes yesterday and they say they are valid for parties of 2 to 5 traveling together. So I am hoping that will work for just 2 of us. It is not clear in the paperwork if kids are "required".

patricia- does the pass itself saying anything about children at all? i'm just confused how the validating person and the conductor would even know that you're "supposed" to have children with you, if the pass doesn't say anything on it.... it's such a good deal, but i don't want to stress about it every time we got on a train..

Kaleighmh, I will have to check when I get home what the passes say exactly. Will post later on.
I did just get reservations on the golden pass portion. When I tried thru RailEurope, there were no first class reservations available. So I called Byron at BETS (boy he is really helpful!!) and he told me to go directly to the Golden Pass website (www.goldenpass.ch) and lo and behold there were the seats.

The pass says: "The Swiss Saverpass Family Promo is valid for groups of 2 to 5 persons traveling together. All or part of the persons listed may travel, but only on presentation of the Swiss Saverpass Family Promo and this control voucher". The referred to "family promo" coupon lists "1st class" and "2 adults" and the validation section. There is a separate Swiss Travel System Family Card with spots to list Parent's name(s) and on the second page the children's names and dates of birth. On that one it says "minimum participation: 1 adult and 1 child". I am not trying to subvert the system. Just thought it would work just as well for just 2 people. You wouldn't think they would argue with "less" usage.?

that's how i see it- the child pass is free anyways, i don't see why they wouldn't offer this to everyone... thanks for the info, hopefully I can make a decision soon since the offer ends today!!

Very useful thread.
Thank you OP and is Palenque and OP the same person ?

Can No.2 in the OP taken with any Swiss Pass without extra charge ?

fcuklp - thanks! Yes PalenQ and Palenque are me one and the same - for technical reasons i changed it.

<Can No.2 in the OP taken with any Swiss Pass without extra charge ?>

Please re-state your question - i don't get it as phrased - thanks

kaleighmah - marketing decisions are based on many things, of course and i guess they wanted to limit the promo in numbers or they would have just had a general sale on all Swiss Passes - kids or sans kids and not just the 3-day flexi or 8-c0nsecutive-day pass.

yes, I can appreciate that, it was just me venting because I love saving money We decided not to risk it - boyfriend says I'm too much of a nervous traveler as it is, didn't want to add any stress by worrying about that too.

I hear you kaleighmh - even though could well fly the angst between now and validation, etc. for me would be too much as well - hopefully patricia will report back (and hopefully she will have no problems - then you will regret not buying it!

Palenque, just to confirm what I have read from this thread and others of yours:

1. If you have a SwissPass and want to upgrade to first on the GoldenPass, that is possible.

2. You can make reservations w/o already having a pass on the golden pass website.

3. Right now, it is actually a little less expensive to purchase a pass in Switzerland (rather than in the US)...which can be done at any Swiss train station. (I would personally rather give Byron the business)

Thanks for your replies!

1 - Yes - you pay the different in fares between the classes

2- Yes - i have not done it but several others have and it seems just a seat reservation and then once on the train you have to show a ticket or pass along with the seat reservation.

3- Not sure - RailEurope - the ultimate purveyor of Swiss Passes - part owned by the Swiss Federal Railways - recently lowered prices for Swiss Passes - they have adjusted prices on Swiss Passes a few times already this year - once up when the dollar was sinking and now lower when the Swiss franc is declining a bit. so they always seem to be about the same but daily currency fluctuations can make a difference either way.

You can get Swiss franc pass prices at www.sbb.ch - Swiss Railways site and then if your credit card charges the usual 3& tack that on and also tack a few cents onto the official rate as you never get the official rate because exchange banks must make money. Ditto to your comments about Byron, who i have bought passes from for years - though i need few questions answered except perhaps for some really technical ones he is great for the novice as he IME takes pains to explain everything and answer any questions. Try getting that from RailEurope! -Actually RE web site says or at least said they charge 10% extra for phone orders - hard to ask questions with online orders.

Right now, it is actually a little less expensive to purchase a pass in Switzerland (rather than in the US)...which can be done at any Swiss train station. (I would personally rather give Byron the business)>

An update - RailEurope yesterday announced a reduction in the price of Swiss Passes - this illustrates the point that they lower and raise pass prices according to exchange rates. I have not compared the new lower prices with those at sbb.ch yet however and have not seen how much lowering of prices they did.

Palenque- Just my luck!!! Just got our passes in the mail yesterday. And I see on raileurope.com that we could have saved about $70 if we had waited just one more week. Ugh...
On the 8 day consecutive saver pass it looks like it went down a little over 30 dollars.. Not sure about the others since this is the only one I remember the old price for

Palenque - thanks for the raileurope.com.au suggestion but too bad, I missed the deal anyway. hopefully something else will come up b4 my dream trip.
Can you pls. also answer my other questions - (1) Glacier Express vs. Bernina Express - which is more scenic (2) Glacier Express Zermatt-St.Moritz vs St.Moritz-Zermatt - same scenic level?
I'd appreciate if you can comment what's best for me to do or route to take. I'm travelling from Paris into Switzerland in early Oct and will have 5 days (incl travelling from Paris) for sightseeing in Switzerland. At this stage, I'm planning to get point-to-point TGV ticket from Paris to Geneva, then use Swiss Pass from Geneva to Zermatt, Glacier Express Zermatt-St.Moritz, then train to Interlaken, and Zurich to fly back to AUS. What do you think of buying second class Swiss Pass instead of first class? I'd like to save some money if comfort level is not too bad and can see the same scenary. Thanks so much. Your insight sharing has been really helpful.

kaleighmh - timming is everything they say - pass prices go up and down without notice - well about a one-day notice it seems and if you bought before then you are stuck with that price - but during other times it could go the other way - up.

And the pass prices usually all drop the same %.

appletan - thanks for your nice comments - i will give my 2 cents shortly.

Palenque - one more question (since u seem to be an expert on EU Pass), the France-Switzerland Eurail Pass costs just slightly more than the Swiss Pass (less than A$40 difference). Just wondering if it's better for me to get it instead of the Swiss Pass to cover my TGV-Lyria from Paris to Geneva (which cost more than A$100 for single use ticket) although that's the only non-Swiss rail use I'll need. But I read somewhere that there're some extra charge the Eurail Pass holders need to pay while Swiss Pass holders don't (incl. some section of the Glacier Express). What do you think?

I am surprised that in this extremely long thread there hasn't been at least one mention of the Prestige Continental Express. If you have an opportunity, it's a great way to see Switzerland by rail.

appletan - generally IMO you will be better of with a Swiss Pass and pay for the ticket from the Swiss border like at Basel to Paris because the Swiss Pass covers so many things that the Eurailpass (France-Switzerland Eurailpass) does not - like lake boats, postal buses and several key railways like those in the Jungfrau Region above Interlaken (Eurail does give a 25% discount on these trains however) or portions of the Glacier Express and most importantly does not give 50% off hundreds of aerial cable cars, funiculars, gondolas, etc that the Swiss Pass does.

But it depends on where you are going - refresh me with what trains you may be taking - if all are covered by Eurailpasses then that would change by take.

>I am surprised that in this extremely long thread there hasn't been at least one mention of the Prestige Continental Express.

During my years in Switzerland I have never heard of that one. Can you tell more? Sounds rather like a charter train than something running to a schedule...

ditto to altamiro - never heard of this train. Please give us some info - always looking for new scenic train rides. Thanks.

It is a charter, but not in the strict sense of the word. Fairly regularly, rail clubs or other sponsors offer trips the public can join. I've taken it twice, it's a real pleasure...piano bar, old style seats and service. The cars previously belonged to DB. Routes vary, a scenic, leisurely route from Zurich to the Ticino is one of the more common options, also from Zurich or Basel to Lausanne, also by scenic route (those are the ones we took).
Some photos: http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/fr/private/passenger/PCE/pix.html

http://www.prestige-continental-express.com/deutsch/indexd.htm

I believe it's a special wagon that can be rented for groups. The wagon can be used all over Europe. It is a private company operated out of Basel.

It's not well-known in Switzerland.

Also: http://www.prestige-continental-express.com/web/index.php?option=com_morfeoshow&task=view&gallery=3&Itemid=10

http://www.prestige-continental-express.com/web/index.php?option=com_morfeoshow&task=view&gallery=3&Itemid=10

>I am surprised that in this extremely long thread there hasn't been at least one mention of the Prestige Continental Express.>

a sigh of relief when altamiro, who knows tons about Swiss trains and things also never heard of it.

but thanks for the mention - will keep it in mind for future reference.

I first learned about it from cousins who were big Swiss train travel fans - it's also been written up in Swiss railways magazine. So I'm still surprised that you'd never even heard of it.

again thanks for mentioning it and now i do know about it!

As Schuler says, it is not a specific rail line but a train for rent. There is quite a few of those - the late, defunct MThB had several of such trains that they rented out for special events or to anybody with sufficient cash.

Such trains don't run to a schedule but are chartered by groups (companies, clubs etc.) so it is difficult for an average traveller to Switzerland - or an average Swiss - to get to it.

"so it is difficult for an average traveller to Switzerland"

But not impossible. When we took our trips, they were organized by rail clubs and open to anyone. They weren't that expensive either - not much more than first class tickets on the Bernina Express etc

However, I apologize for inadvertently stepping onto the turf of the Swiss rail experts here and offending them by mentioning this route at all. That was not my intent. I will ask the moderators to remove my posts so that honor can be restored.

>But not impossible. When we took our trips, they were organized by rail clubs and open to anyone. They weren't that expensive either - not much more than first class tickets on the Bernina Express etc

Surely not. I wanted to point out that you cannot walk up and buy a ticket for one of these tours. They don't have to be expensive, they just require a lot more planning.

>However, I apologize for inadvertently stepping onto the turf of the Swiss rail experts here and offending them by mentioning this route at all. That was not my intent. I will ask the moderators to remove my posts so that honor can be restored.

Serously, everything all right with you sir?

And so what if they do require more planning? Having been on them, IMO, it's worth keeping a lookout to see if there's an opportunity to try them.

I travel to Switzerland on business twice a year and add a couple of weeks vacation to each trip. I've been on all the scenic trains mentioned here - plus a few that weren't. The only reason I posted was to make people aware about some special train journeys that do come up and that members of the public can enjoy, yes, with a little extra planning. But you've decided to piss all over these posts.

I leave for Switzerland next week and will be there over a month. However, rest assured, I won't step on your Swiss Authority toes by posting a word about my travels.

>But you've decided to piss all over these posts.

I leave for Switzerland next week and will be there over a month. However, rest assured, I won't step on your Swiss Authority toes by posting a word about my travels.

Yes sir, good travels sir, we are so grateful for the wisdom you, in your infinite goodness, decided to shared with us lowly mortals.

MLF611 - I have and do thank you for your contribution. Bon voyage.

ABOUT SWISS PASS PRICES HERE AND THERE
As came up above -

Did a quick check of prices for Swiss Passes in dollars and those in Switzerland in francs

Used 8-consecutive day pass - Saver - two or more people on one pass - p.p. prices

(From www.budgeteuropetravel.com)

8-day Swiss Saver Pass - consecutive days = $297 p.p.

from sbb.ch = 321 Swiss francs

Using .92 francs to $ = $295

but if you add the 3& for most credit cards used for foreing transactions would be about $304 or $7 more than here - but tomorrow exchange rates could go either way.

BACK TO INTERLAKEN/JUNGFRAU REGION TRAINS AND ACCESS ROUTES

Gearing up to return to topic above - trains and conveyances in the Interlaken/Jungfrau Region

Next - Getting to Interlaken by Mainline Rail

A- Lotschberg Route via new Lotschberg Tunnel route
B- Lotschberg Route via old Lotschberg Tunnel route
C -By Golden Pass rail route - from Lucerne and Montreux
D- From Zurich/Zurich Airport
E- From Paris/Germany via Bern
F- From Italy

TBC

Palenque--not sure if I have read this--are you returning to Switzerland this year?

wren - no not this year or at least i do not think - i have been going to Europe recently in the dead of winter and not being into skiing i skip Switzerland in winter.

But perhaps things will change - i have on my To Do list the train to Chur to Arosa and the train to Appenzell - about the only two noted scenic trains i have not taken and wish to.

Cheers - wish i were!

GETTING TO THE INTERLAKEN/JUNGFRAU REGION BY TRAIN - THE TWO LOTSCHBERG ROUTES

If coming up from Brig (Zermatt, Italy) there are two routes to Spiez, where you must change trains to reach Interlaken, gateway to the Jungfrau Region.

Until last year there was only one Lotschberg Tunnel route between Brig and Spiez and IMO it was one of the most awesomely scenic mainline rail routes in Europe - from Brig trains, with the help of some of the most powerful train engines in Europe, started a sharp ascent along a ledge overlooking the Rhone River Valley far below.

The train rolls along the ledge for several miles, climbing prodigiously and yielding super views over the Rhone Valley far far below. Then the train heads for the Lotschberg Tunnel and emerges around the Kandersteg area - a sweet pastoral area with nice views up the Kandersteg Valley before heading to Spiez, lovingly set on placid Lake Thun.

But now few travelers over this mainline route will see anything but tunnels as the new Lotschberg Tunnel goes practically all the way underground from Visp (near Brig) to Frutigen, not far from Spiez - so travelers see none of the fine Alpine wonderland scenery the old route offers.

But trains on the new route are about an hour faster Visp/Brig to Spiez than the old route.

But if you have time, coming from Brig you can still easily take the old route, via the old Lotschberg Tunnel - just hop on regional trains at Brig and take them to Spiez - there are frequent trains so it is easy to do just that and then see what IMO is one of Europe's most scenic mainline rail routes (well not a mainline any more but still this is not some narrow-gauged railway but normal gauge with large train cars - thus the need for really powerful engines.

NEXT - BY GOLDEN PASS RAIL ROUTE TO INTERLAKEN

Pal, did you see the SBB announcement about the new double decker Bombadier trains to be rolled out starting in late 2013.
http://mct.sbb.ch/mct/en/konzern_dienstleistungen/konzern_medien.htm?cmd=E2B9CC475D6FBB37356B8F6C02740061

They will first go into action on IC St. Gallen–Zurich–Berne–Geneva and Romanshorn–Zurich–Berne–Brig routes, and on InterRegio services between Zurich and Lucerne.

I was particularly interested in the news about passive tilting and also "pressure resistant" trains - so pax won't get that WHOMP! when two fast trains whoosh by each other.

Palenque - thanks for your reply on Swiss Pass vs France-Switzerland Eurail Pass. Sorry for MIA a couple of weeks. Here're my train plans for your suggestion (which pass I should get). I'll be travelling with my hubby so eligible for Saver Pass.

Option 1:
Paris to Geneva (Oct 5 or can do Oct 4 late afternoon)
Geneva to Zermatt
Glacier Express Zermatt to St. Moritz
Bernina Express St. Moritz to Tirano and back to St. Moritz
St. Moritz to Interlaken
Interlaken to Zurich (Oct 8 evening)

Option 2:
Paris to Basel then Berne or Interlaken (Oct 5 or can do Oct 4 late afternoon)
Interlaken to Zermatt
Glacier Express Zermatt to St. Moritz
Bernina Express St. Moritz to Tirano and back to St. Moritz
St. Moritz to Zurich (Oct 8 evening)

Questions for your expert advices please:
1) Swiss Pass or France-Switzerland Eurail Pass
2) IYO, will it be too rush to do all those in just 4 full days?
3) Back to your previous posting, if need to choose only 1, Glacier Express or Bernina Express?
4) Glacier Express - Zermatt to St. Moritz as scenic as the other way St. Moritz to Zermatt?
5) G/Express takes 7.5 hours - is there any shorter part of the journey than I can take and experience all/most of the highlights?

Thanks again for your help.

appletan - i note your Qs and will return in a day or two with my two cents. I'd wish anyone else reading and knowledgeable to do the same - or heck even if not knowledgeable!

MLF611
Thanks so much for posting this - i usually read the SBB e-mail news updates but not that one - again thanks - for rail nuts like me very very interesting. I always like double-decker cars as the views from up top are sweet - can see over the fencing and etc along the tracks often from up there.

<I was particularly interested in the news about passive tilting and also "pressure resistant" trains - so pax won't get that WHOMP! when two fast trains whoosh by each other.>

Perhaps that they will be using the new long long tunnel Fruitigen to Visp/Brig makes the passing pressure resistant thing necessary - in tunnel at high speed.

not sure what passive tilting is unless tilting as train set up requires it so they can go around curves a bit faster - the old Cisalpino technology.

again thanks for the news.

I don't really know what passive tilting is either, but it's apparently different from the old Cisalpino technology. From the release:

Passive tilt capability will save well over CHF 1 billion in infrastructure costs.

In order to make travelling quicker and easier for passengers, Lausanne and St. Gallen need to be integrated into the timetable as "full hubs" with both hourly and half-hourly timetabled connections. This means reducing the journey time between Lausanne and Berne and between Zurich und St. Gallen to less than an hour each. This desired reduction is to be achieved on the one hand through infrastructure-related measures, and on the other through the introduction of new rolling stock.

The technology designed to be fitted to the new double-deck trains enables the vehicles to negotiate curves faster by tilting up to two degrees (the maximum tilt on conventional tilting trains is eight degrees). So with the trains' passive tilt mechanisms enabling them to negotiate curves faster, journey times can be improved by around 10% without sacrificing passenger comfort.

Fitting the passive tilt mechanism specified in the tender to all 59 trains costs less than CHF 100 million in total. But the new technology obviates the need for well over CHF 1 billion worth of infrastructure expansion. It also generates increases in capacity and stability throughout the entire network thanks to the additional timetable leeway mentioned earlier.

Yet the idea of incorporating a passive tilt mechanism into trains is nothing new: similar systems are already in use on Talgo trains in Spain and Shinkansen services in Japan. SBB, too, has considerable experience with passive tilt mechanisms: its own class Re460 («Lok 2000») locomotives also feature similar technology.

appletan - i will take a good look at your options next time but suffice to say that only the Swiss Pass should be considered for your plans - a 4-straight-day pass and buy the French TGV ticket on www.voyages-sncf.com - look for a PREM fare that must be booked far in advance - full fare you would buy in Paris could be $100 more!

But a French ticket with a Swiss Pass is the only pass option i would consider and if traveling even half of what you preview then the Swiss Pass will be a boon even then IMO

Palenque - thks 4 the website. i'll check it out
looking forward to yr precious two cents

3) Back to your previous posting, if need to choose only 1, Glacier Express or Bernina Express?

I strongly think the Glacier Express is the most overhyped scenic train ride in Europe - great marketing efforts so everyone thinks it the most scenic and a must.
And though it is pleasant the whole 7-8 hours it is only dramatically scenic IMO around Zermatt (the only place you may glimpse glaciers) and to Visp and then just before St Moritz - the Albula Pass section that is a UNESCO World Heritage Site for its dramatic railway engineering of tunnels, bridges and loops inside and outside of mountains.
But to reach St Mortiz to get to the Bernina Pass route you would have to go over the Albula stretch anyway.

The Glacier Express gets its name from the Aletsch Glacier - the longest in the Alps that stretches down from the Jungfrau and once could be seen from the Glacier Express trains - that was before a tunnel under the Furka Pass replaced the up and down over the top rail route from where you could see the awesome glacier. But the tunnel, drilled to make possible year-round running (other route over the pass would be blocked by snow each winter) but then you see no glaciers.

4) Glacier Express - Zermatt to St. Moritz as scenic as the other way St. Moritz to Zermatt?
5) G/Express takes 7.5 hours - is there any shorter part of the journey than I can take and experience all/most of the highlights?

No the scenery is the same in each direct with the highlights being near each terminus end - Zermatt and St Moritz. The rest is pleasant river valleys but to most this gets boring after a few hours.

I'll attend to your other questions, etc. next - gotta catch my train right now!

Cheers

Palenque - Thx for your insight on G/Express. Do I get it right that your answer is Bernina Express (if need to choose one). Hmmm I'm also thinking since I have only about 4.5 days, spending 7.5 hr (or rather a whole day) on the G/Exp needs to be real worth it to pursue. If not, how would you suggest alternate route from Zermatt to St. Moritz to catch Bernina Exp.

Or if start with a blank canvas, could you suggest which cities I should cover in 5 days 4 nights and transport in between plus Bernina Exp or G/Exp. I'm getting to Switzerland from Paris and out from Zurich.

I suppose Swiss Pass is still the best option even for just one Bernina Exp and transport b/w the cities.

Thx so much for sharing your expertise. Very much appreciated.

Yes Bernina IMO is infinitely more dramatically scenic than GE and is one if not IMO the most scenic railway in Europe.

Right now i gotta catch a train but thanks for your interest and i will shortly give some thought to your above questions - and yes the 4-consecutive-day Swiss Pass if it comports to your plans as it seems it may is the best deal, pass-wise.

Quick thought - from Paris try to go to Bern - best position for you to weave your way over to Bernina and then go to Zurich from there.

Bern sounds good so that I can visit Interlaken as well.

Can't wait to hear more!

Or if start with a blank canvas, could you suggest which cities I should cover in 5 days 4 nights and transport in between plus Bernina Exp or G/Exp. I'm getting to Switzerland from Paris and out from Zurich.>

Been pondering this for a few days - with so little time you would hardly have time to stop by Interlaken area and also get to the Bernina Pass - in remote southeastern Switzerland.

so i may suggest that if you have not been to the Berner Oberland before - the Interlaken area (a k a Jungfrau Region) then i would suggest yes taking the TGV to Bern if possible then heading for the Interlaken area for 3 nights and then stopping at Lucerne for a night and from there it is less than an hour or so to Zurich Airport.

Actually when looking for TGV fares it does not matter much if you end up in Basel, Bern or Lausanne, etc as these are only a few hours at most from Interlaken so go for the cheapest IMO.

But i will also outline how you can go to Bernina Pass area and end in Zurich as an option.

One scenario - take TGV from Paris to Zurich - then go up to St Moritz -

Day 2- spend a day at leisure doing the Bernina Pass train (locals every hour you can just jump on and also the official Bernina Express you must pay a nominal reservation fee with a Swiss Pass to ride) - get off at the summit - do the walk around the Alpine lake to the foot of the glacier, etc.

Day 3 - hop the really scenic IMO Majola Pass bus from St Moritz to Lugano, on lovely lake Lugano and just across from Italy.

Day 4 - take a train the few hours from Lugano to Lucerne - IMO one of Europe's most seductively gorgeous set cities - on Lake Lucerne IMO Switzerland's comeliest lake

Day 5 - Lucerne to Zurich Airport in about one hour, starting really early

No Jungfrau but plenty of really sweet scenic travels

Now for including Interlaken

TGV to Bern - overnight in Interlaken area

2- Interlaken area

3- Take Susten (or is it Grimsel?) Pass bus to Goschenen and shuttle train up to Andermatt to join the Glacier Express train route via Reichenau to St Moritz

4- Bags in station locker and doing the about one hour each way Bernina Pass rail route to the summit at Alp-Grum station and back and go onto Zurich via Chur.

Lots of travel but lots of neat places - the Susten Pass bus is so so dramatic - serpentine hairpin turns, etc.

It can be used also to go from the Interlaken area to Zurich - trains from Goschenen - a novel way out of the Interlaken area. Buses leave from Meiringen - lots of trains from Interlaken-Ost.

But again i think i would primarily stay in the Interlaken area as there is so so much to see and do there - lots of variety, etc - lake boat rides - mountain trains - breathtakaing aerial cableways, etc.

Too bad you do not have more time and that St Moritz is so so hard to get to coming from Paris.

Palenque- I like your latest plan.
Thank you so much for spending your time and thoughts on my trip. My greatest appreciation to you.

Reading your comment about Lucerne and Lugano reminded me something I forgot to tell you (sorry!). I'll get a chance to spend 2 nights in Lucerne as part of the coach tour b4 Paris(I don't think you like the idea of that. Me neither but it's my hubby who wants it). I'll also see Lake Lugano from the coach on the way (but the tour won't stop there).

Does that change anything? Having seen Lucerne by then, would that make Interlaken passable spot? If not and IYO it's still better to spend time in Interlaken area doing those activities, do you think it's still worth it to get Swiss Pass since there won't be that much of train rides, except for around Interlaken and onward to Zurich?

Yes to the Interlaken area - little in common with Lucerne - Interlaken area is the highlight, literally and figuratively of Switzerland IMO - glaciers - ice-girdled peaks - mountain trains - thrilling gondolas, etc.

And no if you will just be in the Interlaken area and going to Zurich the Swiss Pass will not be nearly cost effective - either buy tickets as you go along or if taking enough of the mountain trains in the Jungfrau Region investigate the Jungfraubahn Pass - sold locally that covers many of the really expensive trains - like that up to the Jungfraujoch - Europe's highest train station and in a Top of the World type place of glaciers, snow and ice.

I don't think you like the idea of that>

well personally i travel on my own but i don't mind if others take advantage of the efficiency and organization of tours - not at all! Enjoy.

Thanks again Palenque. If I can help you or anyone with trips to Thailand, Singapore, Malaysia or Melbourne Australia next time, I'd love to return your kind favour.

Have a great day!

appletan - thanks i do not have Asia in my scope but if i do i will pick your brain about it. Q - Are you an American or Aussie? Curious.

I'm a Thai but have made AUS home for long time now. I also have lived in Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Japan and Canada before. R u a Swiss living in US (my guess)?

Nope - I am an American born and bred but due to my past job - a profession travel writer - now retired - specializing in European trains i have spent loads of time in Europe and on trains - esp train in Switzerland as i am a rail nut and there are so so many interesting trains and conveyances in Switzerland - and esp in the Interlaken/Jungfrau region.

I did spend three weeks in Thailand once long ago and a couple of weeks in Burma en route to three months in India, Pakistan, Nepal, Afhganistan and Iran but mainly travel in Europe.

cheers

Your web name doesn't sound American plus your expertise that's where my guess came from.

BTW, I'm now looking at Swiss Card or Swiss transfer ticket instead of Swiss Pass or pay-as-I-go. Based on some calculation I saw on the web, a Swiss Card pays off just for return tickets from Zurich to Murren (and I think that'd be about the same from Interlaken) plus it gives discount on other transports or activities.

What do u think? The requirement is a bit confusing to me though - allow travel upward...on one calendar day....

If I catch TGV to Lausanne and stop by Montreux to see Chillon b4 going to Interlaken, I'd have to do that within a day, right. That's quite limited. I think the Swiss Card is only about 30-40 CHF cheaper than the Swiss Pass Saver. Perhaps the Swiss Pass is still more worth it?

Swiss Card gives you one transfer from any airport or border point in Switzerland and then back from there to any airport or border point - i believe you need not go back from where you started - and then for one month it gives you the same 50% off any transport - bus, train, boats for the one-month period - so yes you have to calculate carefully what exactly you plan to do - just like with the Half-Fare Card

yes you have to do it in one day and take the most direct route or the fastest route - usually the are the same but not always - like going between Interlaken and Zurich you could go via Bern or via the Brunig Pass line and Lucerne to Zurich - having the whole day to do it.

If the Card is but 30-40 CHF cheaper than the pass then i would think automatically the pass is better as you would with the Card still pay 50% for anything and with the pass you get a minimum of 100% covered travel days.

Swiss Card is good for someone going from an airport or border point to one place and then staying put - hiking or using local passes like the Jungfraubahn Pass once there.

thanks again. I'll have to work it out very soon as the booking should be open next week for October PREM ticket.

You can help me now by explaining the October PREM ticket?

thanks - i am only vaguely familiar with that creature.

Oh no, I hope you don't think that I know something you don't. I only meant PREM ticket for my October trip.

I only first heard of PREM ticket from your earlier mention. However, after researching, I found that it's only offered about 3 months prior to the date of travel. So for my October travel, it'll only be available sometime next week, hence, mentioned as October PREM ticket. I actually hope I got it right (about PREM ticket) and not wasted time waiting for nothing.

Ok appletan - i thought you were talking about some PREM ticket instead of a Swiss Pass or Swiss Card, etc - something i had not heard about but my mistake - yes the PREM ticket from www.voyages-sncf.com for coming from Paris.

Cheers

copying this info about being able to make Glacier Express and Bernina Express reservations by email - even before you have your pass or ticket i believe.

<Palenque, I emailed RB, they replied saying that I can book the Glacier express and the Bernina Express by email. For anybody reading this and would like their email address, it's railservice@rhb.ch>

NEXT - BY GOLDEN PASS RAIL ROUTE TO INTERLAKEN

OK Back to getting to and from Interlaken options (but any questions anytime please on anything to do with Swiss trains and i'll try to answer!)

The Golden Pass Route to Interlaken-Ost from Lucerne
Even though from Lucerne it may actually be quicker to take the main rail route via Bern and Spiez it really does not take much extra time - about half an hour or so to take the narrow-gauge mountain-climbing train that from Lucerne goes up and over the Brunig Pass before descending to Lake Brienz and following the shore of that idyllic Swiss lake into Interlaken-Ost, gateway station for trains to Grindelwald, Lauterbrunnen and above.

From Lucerne the train first tracks along the shore of Lake Lucerne, then climbs past two Alpine lakes glittering far below the tracks - then using cog wheels to gain traction and improve braking it's is up and over the Brunig Pass.

A short 2-hour scenic rail ride the whole way and the first stage of the Golden Pass rail route Lucerne-Interlaken-Montreux, on the shores of Lake Montreux.

GOLDEN PASS TO/FROM MONTREUX TO INTERLAKEN
You can also use the Golden Pass scenic train route to go between Interlaken and Lake Geneva, at Montreux, where the Golden Pass route terminates.

Though i would not call the Interlaken-Montreux route the most scenic in Switzerland in terms of dramatic Alpine scenes, etc. it does plow through for the most part bucolic valleys with the high Alps in the distance.

And though it does take about an hour longer than going to Lake Geneva via the more mainline route, via Bern and Lausanne, the scenery is definitely more comely than the other route.

There are official Golden Pass scenic trains running this route as well as hourly local or regional trains. Railpasses valid in Switzerland cover 100%of the train fare though for spiffy observation cars and the totally uniquq VIP seats you should reserve ahead to be sure of getting on.

VIP SEATS ON GOLDEN PASS
These unique seats exist on the GP portion from Zweisimmen to Montreux but not, i think, on the other portions. They are situated next to and above the driver's cabin so you can think you are driving the train yourself! You must have a first-class pass or ticket to use them - with a 2nd class ducat or pass you can pay an upgrade - the difference between normal first class fares and second class fare to use them.

There are similar VIP seats in the rear of the train too so you are looking out the back straight onto the tracks.

With such limited numbers of seats - 8 on each end i believe you must book these seats far in advance to get one.

You can book VIP seats and regular seats at the official Glacier Express web site even if you do not have a pass or ticket yet - and to get VIP seats you should book as soon as you are allowed to.

SWISS SUMMER PROMO - SWISS BLISS DEAL

That's the cumbersome title of a special going on for only one week for those buying any kind of Swiss Pass - here's the deal - buy your pass between July 15 and 21, 2010 andyouget one free Fast Baggage voucher for each person on the pass - meaning what you normally would pay about $15 for - to have your bag transfered between any Swiss airport and any Swiss train station or vice versa.

+ "Mountain Peak roundtrip tickets for the price of a one-way ticket up these Swiss Peaks - Titlus, Pilatus, Schilthorn, Stanserhorn and Rochers-de-Naye (Swiss Pass gives 50% off these so if taking say theSchilthorn cableway you'll save about $25 p.p. with this special deal.

And from July 22-Nov 30, 2010 you get 20% off at Victorinox Swiss Army stores in Geneva and Soho, NYC

Travel on the pass special can take place until Nov 30, 2010.

Correction to above post - Fast Baggage does not go to every train station in Switzerland but only to 45 key ones - and for the Jungfrau Region Interlaken-West is the only station - not Interlaken-Ost, changing point for Grindelwald, Lauterbrunnen, Wengen and Murren.

FAST BAGGAGE
As long as the topic came up here are some details of this popular program - if you check your bags from any of the 45 train stations by 9am you can collect it at the destination station guaranteed by 6pm.
Each items can weigh up to 25 kg or about 55 pounds - bicycles do not qualify but suitcases, bags, skis, snowboards, sledges and prams/stollers do. Skis, snowboards and ski boots are transported in protective covering provided in the fee.
Passengers need to refer to opening times for offices where luggage is picked up and dropped off - esp on Sundays in smaller locals.

FAST BAGGAGE VS BAGGAGE TO AIRPLANE SCHEMES

Correction - wrong info give above - when talking about this limited in time Swiss Bliss Pass Special i mixed up the Swiss Railways scheme that takes bags to and from airports from train stations - that does not apply to this special but simply is sending your luggage from one train station to any of 44 other train stations - you travel during the day free of that heavy piece of luggage (or ski, snowboard, etc) - ideal for folks wishing to just get off the train somewhere for a hour or so and not having to worry about doing the luggage locker routine, etc. This Swiss Bliss Special is about this, not transferring baggage to an airport or vice versa - indeed i see no airport train stations on the list of Fast Baggage.

to have your bag transfered between any Swiss airport and any Swiss train station or vice versa

GoldenPass Services réservations
Vous pouvez réserver vos places dans les trains suivants : - GoldenPass Panoramic - Places VIP "Grande vue" - GoldenPass Classic - Train du Chocolat ...
www.goldenpass.ch/goldenpass_services_reservations

Here is the place to make a reservation in the observation cars or vaunted VIP seats that are right next to and around the train driver so you simulate driving the train yourself (though there are also VIP seats at the end of the train with a view of things receding - so be clear which VIP seats you are reserving. Seems you can make a seat reservations by itself so if you have a Swiss Pass you later just show the pass along with the reservation booked online.

Swiss Passes have had 2 for 1 sales every year now it seems for travel in mid to late fall and mid to late spring but only on selected passes, not across the board. check www.budgeteuropetravel.com or www.ricksteves.com or www.raileiurope.com for details of the 2 for 1 dates if you are pondering traveling during those time periods. See in 2013 spring they have the same 2 for 1 sales.

Last fall's 2 for 1 sale covered only 4-day flexi or 4-consecutive day passes and covered travel only between Sep 1 and Nov 30 - expect the same to be so in 2013 as it has been often during that time period - though exactly what may be offered may be tweaked.