Scandinavia - By land or by sea?

Old Dec 2nd, 2016, 05:32 PM
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Scandinavia - By land or by sea?

My wife and I (in our 60's) plan to visit Scandinavia this summer. We're fairly experienced independent travelers but want some advice on how to see the Baltic region. This is our first trip to that part of Europe. Any opinions on whether a Baltic cruise or doing cities by car would be better?

Itinerary #1, Baltic Cruise -

The typical 7-day cruise itinerary includes Stockholm - Helsinki - St. Petersburg - Tallinn - Copenhagen. Has anybody ever heard of a cruise like that that starts at Stockholm and ends at Copenhagen (or vice versa)? We would spend 2 or 3 days in Stockholm and Copenhagen at the start and end of such a cruise so I'd like to fly into one and out of the other.

Itinerary #2, Pure Scandinavia -

Fly into Stockholm. Spend a few days, pick up a car. Drive to Bergen. (Is there a good route for this across the countryside?) Two days in Bergen and surroundings. Oslo for a day. Then Copenhagen for three days. Fly out of Copenhagen.

Itinerary #3, Budget Buster -

Take the cruise as in #1, probably out of Stockholm. Then fly to Bergen for two days and on to Copenhagen for three more. I figure 18 days and $10k for the two of us from the USA.

Advice?
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Old Dec 2nd, 2016, 06:02 PM
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Have you considered visiting these cities by public transportation? Doing so is perfectly doable and very easy. Even if you were not experienced travelers, I wouldn't hesitate to encourage you to go to these areas on your own -- perhaps some variant of # 2?

Itin # 1 -- IMO, way way way too little time anywhere! Just for comparison, I thought 6 nights in St. Petersburg barely enough for a first see-the-highlights visit.

Itin # 2 -- could work, though Stockholm can easily warrant 5 full days. Be sure you decide what YOU want to see and experience in each of these locations before you commit to specifics, and consider your many options for public transportation (which is generally excellent in these areas). You can consult rome2rio.com to get a preliminary sense of your transportation options, but do check a bit more thoroughly as the info on that site is not always completely current or accurate.

Itin # 3 -- See again my comments about St. Petersburg.

Sounds like a key decision is whether to cruise or not. I haven't yet taken any cruises, and honestly, dread the day when that is my preferred manner of travel! (No offense to those of you who enjoy it -- after all, we all travel for different reasons and with different preferences!) I like staying on land so I can walk around easily at any time of day (including my after-dinner "constitutional") and see things in the various kinds of light that accompany different times of day. I like eating at local restaurants, sometimes low end, sometimes high end, but always selected because they are part of the city, not a floating hotel. I like independent travel, not only for the freedom of what to see, but also the freedoms of schedule -- I choose when to leave my lodging for the day, when to see what and when to leave it, when to take whatever breaks I want, etc.

Obviously, there are no right or wrong answers -- just individual preferences!

Hope this helps!
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Old Dec 2nd, 2016, 06:24 PM
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I have the same preferences as kja regarding cruise vs. land. I did take a cruise last year, but it was a Hurtigruten "cruise" up the Norwegian coast. On that trip I visited Copenhagen, Gothenburg and Stockholm by train before flying to Bergen, I have previously visited all the Baltic capitals and St. Petersburg by public transport.

Click on my name for the TRs for my Scandinavian and most recent Baltic trip.
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Old Dec 2nd, 2016, 11:27 PM
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Re.: #2 - cross border one-way car hire would be a problem. You don't need a car in cities. Long boring drive Stockholm - Oslo.
Fly Stockholm - Bergen. Take the Norway in a Nutshell route to Oslo, then overnight ferry to Copenhagen. Alternative to NiN route would be to hire a car and drop off in Oslo - but there are still high one-way hire costs - or hire a car for couple of days round trip of fjords from Bergen, then NiN to Oslo.
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Old Dec 3rd, 2016, 01:00 AM
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Itin # 1 - how much time do you have in St Petersburg & Tallinn? Does the cruise include a visa for Russia? If you just want a flavour of these cities, a cruise will be a good way to do it. Since you are adding time to the start and end for Stockholm & Copenhagen, it should be enough time, IMO.

Overall I would be inclined to put together my own itinerary with a mix of train, flights STO-CPH, car rental and taking ferries from/to Oslo Copenhagen and Stockholm/Helsinki or Tallinn & train Helsinki/St Petersburg, fly into Stockholm and leave from Copenhagen or vv.

Copenhagen, Stockholm & St Petersburg need 3 nights/4 days max, Tallinn 2 nights, Helsinki 1 night, possibly leave out St Petersburg & replace with Riga, do another trip just for Russia (Moscow & St Petersburg with Novogorod for example). Since you need a visa, which is pricey, might as well see more of Russia than just St Petersburg. Personally I would find 5 days in Stockholm too much for a small city and 6 days in St Petersburg is also alot of time, maybe it is a North American thing that you need so much time to see cities that are weekend/short stay destinations for Europeans.

Re: car rental in Scandinavia, be aware there is congestion charge in Stockholm & other cities.
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Old Dec 3rd, 2016, 03:04 AM
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Also road tolls need to be figured in for Norway by car.

If you stick to Scandinavia you could choose to do a short trip on the Hurtigruten, ether the north trip, or the south trip, or even getting off somewhere along the way.
Using trains is easy in Norway, and you can enjoy the countryside more than if you drive, especially if you only want to visit cities. And that is from someone who generally prefers to drive.

I think you could put together a tour for yourself seeing the places you really want to see, and using public transport, quite easily.
If you take the St Peter line ferry from Helsinki or Talinn you can visit St. Petersburg for 72 hours visa free. http://www.saint-petersburg.com/russ...rry-visa-free/
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Old Dec 3rd, 2016, 06:18 AM
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Went to Scandinavia in May/June 2016. Husband and I are 65+, independent travelers for 50+ years. We now travel together and apart. I like cruises as he poops out about 1pm and allows us to see the highlights in the AM and for him to wave to me from the balcony when I return to the ship in the PM.

That said, went to Copenhagen for 6 days in May, met hubby for cruise from Copenhagen to Tallinn, St. Pete, Helsinki and Stockholm. Returning to Copenhagen, he flew home and I flew to Bergen and then took a train, bus, ferry and train through the FABULOUS fjords to Oslo for two days.

Absolutely loved Copenhagen, easy to get around, extremely walkable and wonderful out of the city trips. Tallinn was very easy and walkable as well and one day was enough, maybe 2 if going by land. St. Petersburg: we had been there (and Moscow for 10 days) for 10 days about 5 years ago so going back by ship was a treat. So due to the fact that getting visas for 2 would be about $600, we opted for ships tours (which we never ever take) but as it was just a sort of refresher trip, was OK. Helsinki for some reason was not our favorite city for really no good reason. Maybe too stark and bland, don't know, just didn't click with us. Stockholm, ferry rides, palaces, lovely city and you could probably stay 2-3 days if by land.

Bergen was delightful but 1- 1 1/2 days is enough as it is very small and wharf area is great for the lounging, strolling and checking out the really old and really slanted buildings. The Sunday I was there a band played around town and that was a treat to see and listen to them. Trip from Bergen to Oslo through the fjords was easy to do as I followed the Norway in a Nutshell (NIN) tour but bought my own tickets before I left home (except for bus which you buy on board) as I received senior discounts all the way. Oslo was another great baltic town and again easy to get around and good for 2-3 days.

I bring only one carryon, do not do dress nights on the ship and intensely, deeply and minutely check out every city so I know what I want to see, will the sight be open when I'm there and how it plays out transportation wise to get to those cities, etc, etc, etc.

I will say the trip was planned as a solo one and I was still going to take the cruise by myself as it would be expensive but a good option for me to see those cities without shelpping my bag and finding my hotels. Then my husband decided to come, so worked out.

Enjoy.
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Old Dec 3rd, 2016, 06:10 PM
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Well I am not a cruise person - get motion sick - and would detest the idea of only a part of one day in each city.

I think your itinerary should be based on 1) how much time you have and 2) what you want to see most (cities, versus countryside, particular sights, etc).

I must admit that I found Norway to be very boring except for the fjords. And driving through Sweden from Malmo up to Stockholm we ran into a lot of scrub oak. But for someone used to NY State, which is gorgeous, this was a big disappointment - although we loved the cities, our preference any way.
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Old Dec 3rd, 2016, 07:11 PM
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I find it fascinating that Odin would say, “Stockholm & St Petersburg need 3 nights/4 days max,” a comment he then expanded to say, “Personally I would find 5 days in Stockholm too much for a small city and 6 days in St Petersburg is also alot of time, maybe it is a North American thing that you need so much time to see cities that are weekend/short stay destinations for Europeans.” Note that he made these remarks after I said, “I thought 6 nights in St. Petersburg barely enough for a first see-the-highlights visit.” And ”Stockholm can easily warrant 5 full days.”

Obviously, it depends on what YOU want to see and do. For those of us who might consider a trip to Stockholm or St. Petersburg or anywhere else in the area to be a trip-of-a-lifetime, I’m not convinced that it helps to say that “x” is the MAX one would “need,” particularly after someone else has already said that “x” would have been insufficient. ;-)

I can only speak to my experience: I had trouble fitting everything I wanted to see in St. Petersburg into 5+ days. I had trouble fitting everything I wanted to see in / around Stockholm into 5 days. I would have welcomed more time in either city. So odin’s assurances would seem to me, based on my experience, to be inaccurate. I’m not questioning the times that worked for him – I’m just saying that my experience was different.

I’m a solo traveler from the US who wants to take advantage of every opportunity I can to see and experience the places I choose to visit. As a rule, I begin each day of a trip as early as I can and keep moving until there is, quite literally, nothing left that is open for me to see that day. And then I have dinner and, after that, take a long walk to see things after dark. I think that means that it would be hard to see / experience what I saw / experienced in LESS time than what it took me, but of course, I could be wrong.

I agree that my perspective is probably different from that of someone who can easily and affordably spend a long weekend in one of these cities. Indeed, I would understand if someone in the US wasn’t interested in advice about what time might be optimal for seeing the highlights of (say) NYC or Chicago, as the time and cost to visit and revisirt wouldn’t be comparable to the time and cost of international travel.

Bottom line: Only the OP can decide what time to spend in any specfic locations. I recommend getting some good guidebooks (or spending some time with a few in your local library), identifying the things s/he most wants to see in each location, checking opening/closing times on the internet, and marking them on a calendar. Then pencil in transportation, add some time on either side (for getting to/from your lodging, checking in/out, packing/unpacking, getting oriented, etc.), and see how things fit together.

BTW, I do agree with Odin’s advice to think about deferring St. Petersburg until you have time to include Moscow (also worthy of at least 6 days, IMO ;-) ), given the cost of the visa, among other considerations.

Good luck!
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Old Dec 4th, 2016, 01:15 AM
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>

nytraveler, what are scrub oak? Is it known by another name, since scrub oak a tree that grows in hotter climates? I've seen alot of it in Cyprus for instance. Maybe you mean pine trees or birch. Did you drive along the E4?
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Old Dec 4th, 2016, 05:01 AM
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Like kja, I was surprised by Odin's take on St.Petersburg and Stockholm. But these days I am a somewhat slow traveler, so I am glad to see my opinion confirmed by someone who packs much more into her days. I preferred Moscow to St. Petersburg, but still, three full days seems an absolute minimum, especially for an art lover who is likely to spend longer than I did in the Hermitage. And besides the city itself, you need time for side trips to Pushkin and Peterhof.

I thought Stockholm easily the best of the Scandinavian capitals, and indeed of the Baltic ones, although Riga is close behind. I had four full days, and could have filled more. I used one for a visit to the archipelago, and spent almost all of another in the wonderful Decorative Arts Museum, but had no time for any day trips to other towns, which I had considered when planning.

kja's advice on planning is spot on. Decide what you want to see, and how long that will take.

For my visit to Stockholm see (links at the tp of the page):

https://mytimetotravel.wordpress.com...-of-stockholm/
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Old Dec 4th, 2016, 06:49 AM
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I've lost track of what people are saying. So I don't know who I am disagreeing with. But I do know that I want a car in Norway. There are so many beautiful places to divert to, even smack dab in the middle of the country. But then again we love rocks and scrub and ponds.
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Old Dec 4th, 2016, 10:03 AM
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One itinerary could be Tallin (2 nights), ferry to Helsinki (2 night), ferry to Stockholm (3 nights), by car to Bergen (2 nights) and Oslo (3 nights), ferry or flight to Copenhagen (4 nights). You can take a night ferry between Helsinki-Stockholm.
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Old Dec 4th, 2016, 11:50 AM
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Instead of driving in #2 consider taking trains - if you just want to go from city to city as quick as possible - and you can take the thrilling Oslo-Bergen Railway - one of the very top in Europe for scenery. Hard to drive along its course.

Check the ScanRail Pass and for general info on Scan trains and boats (some are covered by the pass and you also get discounts at some hotel chains) www.budgeteuropetravel.com; www.seat61.com and www.ricksteves.com.

Scan trains are fantastic and can go much faster than cars.
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Old Dec 4th, 2016, 11:59 AM
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You might be interested in my July 2009 trip reports on our Norway trip and stay in Stockholm. We used a variety of transportation including renting a car to see the Norwegian fjord area. Click on my name to find the reports.
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Old Dec 4th, 2016, 12:27 PM
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Five years ago we did a two week coach tour of Norway, Sweden and Denmark. Normally avoid coach tours like the plague but really enjoyed this one as it concentrated on scenery and places rather than churches. We loved the scenery so went back two years later and did a two week cruise of Norway (round trip from Rotterdam). Loved that too.
A lot of travellers use the Hurtigruten ships which give the possibility of cruising some areas but also using the public transport system to see places away from the coast.
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Old Dec 5th, 2016, 10:55 AM
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To the one-eyed allfather: I don't think you get scrub oak in Scandinavia. The only European variety is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quercus_coccifera.

Even a New Yorker should be able to avoid mistaking a pine or spruce from an oak, though.
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Old Dec 5th, 2016, 12:14 PM
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ferry to Helsinki (2 night), ferry to Stockholm (3 nights)>

An awesomely gorgeous ride -along a rocky archipelago most of the way- in spring and summer nights are long - trappings of a cruise ship- was a highlight of my Scandinavia trips.
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Old Dec 7th, 2016, 01:45 PM
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Thank you everyone! There's a lot of experience and a great bunch of ideas here! Based on what y'all have said I've gotten my itinerary to this point. We will:

- Drop the car in favor of trains or air for city to city transport.

- Arrange for four days each in Stockholm and Copenhagen. My plan is to fly into one city and out of the other and use them to "anchor" the trip.

- Try to spend one day each in some or all of these cities - Helsinki, Oslo, Bergen, Riga, and Tallinn.

- Try to stop in at St. Petersburg - My wife has relatives there and has spent a lot of time there. I'll do a full visit on another trip.

I'm going to look for the right cruise. Hitting a few Baltic cities without having to unpack every night sounds good to me.

Does anyone know of a one way cruise from Stockholm to Copenhagen or vice versa? That would be ideal. I've looked and can't find a thing.
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Old Dec 7th, 2016, 02:07 PM
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- Try to stop in at St. Petersburg - My wife has relatives there and has spent a lot of time there. I'll do a full visit on another trip.>

Special trains go there from Helsinki and if with a group I think you do not need a Visa.

Go Blue - Fellow Michigander!
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