luademochila

Hello,

If my english is not good enough to make me understand, don't hesitate to ask further explanations, I'll try to rephrase.

After Salzburg, I'm trying to decide whether I should stop a few days in Bavaria (thinking about 3 nights in Nüremberg (to see the city itself and Rothenburg OdT), maybe 3 more nights in Munich and spend another 6 nights, 3 in Rhine, 3 in Mosel Valley.

Rhine and Mosel Valley are a must-see. My main goal is to avoid seeing the same scenery. So, I'm concerned if places like bavarian towns are not very similar to what I'll see in Rhine and Mosel Valleys. If so, I'd rather spend my time somewhere else.

The whole itinerary is:

Berlim, Prague, Budapest, Salzburg area, X, Rhine/Mosel Valley

Where X = 8 nights to spend somewhere I'm able to pay no more than 70 euros/night for a double private room. Most bavarian city/towns meet that pre-requisite, but avoid seeing the same scenery is a must. If so, I'm taking suggestions to where should I go (except Portugal, France and Italy, which I've already seen enough for now).

PalenQ

So, I'm concerned if places like bavarian towns are not very similar to what I'll see in Rhine and Mosel Valleys>

highly unlikely you'll see any similarities that cause you to do a double take - the Rhine and Mosels are river gorges lined by cutesy riverside resort towns.

Bavaria is pastoral with rolling hills, etc.

To me the Mosel is far prettier than the Rhine (classic part of Rhine between Rudesheim/Bingen and Boppard/Koblenz - the rest of the Rhine s fairly industrial ho-hum but in this part the Father Rhine runs in a deep gorge with castles, mainly ruined, topping many hills - the Mosel is a much deeper gorge and one often lovingly lined with vineyards and again castle after ruined castle (Napoelon andother marauders thru the centuries on these strategic waterways seemed to have leveled practically every castle except Marksburg and Bug Eltz, two of Germany's most famous castles.

So yes do both rivers - my favorite base for both is Cochem, a fairy-tale town on a sweetly scenic stretch of the Mosel and one with a fairy-tale castle poking out of vineyards in the town itself (Ersatz medieval castle, however, reconstructed in the last century or so.

If going by train you may find a German Railpass useful as well as the European East pass (valid in Austria, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary - both passes allow you to simply hop on any train anytime in those countries - if you want full flexibility the pass could be good. Otherwise for long-haul train rides like between Bavaria and the Rhine/Mosel try online discounts like at www.bahn.de - German rail web site but those must be booked weeks in advance to get and cannot be changed nor refunded I believe. If going first class you may also want to consider a Eurail Select Pass good for up to five countries.

Passes in Germany are also valid 100% of the K-D boats that ply the best part of the Rhine and Mosel to Cocehm (www.k-d.com) - a boat ride on the Rhine is very popular, with the best bet IMO going downstream, faster, between Reudesheim and Boppard.

Anyway if going by train check out these superb IMO rail sites - www.seat61.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.ricksteves.com - lots of great info on trains and itineraries in those countries.

bitsy1

I agree w/ PalenQ about the differences in terrain for the 2 Rivers, and w/Bavaria = river gorges vs the pastoral rolling hills in Bavaria.
How would you be traveling if you were doing Bavarian countryside/towns?
I've done both area several times, via rental car. Bavarian towns for sure, IMO, would require rental car to travel between towns, which is at least half the fun.. The Rhine & Mosel, however, can be done via tour boats (kind of hop on/off) between the towns... & at least along the Rhine, I believe you can go 1 way boat + return via rail, or vice versa.
I also agree Cochem is a great base for Mosel, but if you're traveling via rental car, I'd pick one along the Rhine, as well... Possibly St Goar, or one of the smaller towns might have lower costs. Do visit Burg Eltz...Fantastic.. see it all, including the family treasures in treasury building.

luademochila

Palenq,

I'm aware of the geographic differences, but I should have specified that I meant architectural and cultural differences.

I also know about Mosel being far more scenic and calm than Rhine. However, Rhine is a must see because of Rhine in Flames and the Weinfest, Rheinfel ruins, Marksburg and some small towns like Bacharach and St Goar. That's why I'll try to spend some nights in both places.

Bitsy,

I think we are going to do it by train, but there is a small possibility we will rent a car. Our goal is to avoid renting a car as much as we can, because we are not used to drive far away from home, in another country, with different rules and different language. Anyway, I'll think about it.

Cochem is going to be our base in Mosel, St Goar in Rhine. Of course we won't miss Burg Eltz, at least if weather permits.

Thanks to both of you.

Russ

"I also know about Mosel being far more scenic and calm than Rhine."

Calmer yes - but the Rhine is more dramatic, and though different, I think you'll find it equally or more scenic.

On a short visit to Bavaria and the Rhine/Mosel, you are unlikely to pick up on any substantial cultural differences, though there are some. Architecturally speaking, there are many more options in Bavaria than in the small Rhine/Mosel region. There are more towns with more well-preserved buildings and town fortifications in Bavaria, and many more palaces, but Bavaria is a gigantic region compared with the tiny Rhine/Mosel, and the Rhine has a gargantuan advantage when it comes to castles and castle ruins. There are 40 of them in a 40 mile stretch between Bingen and Koblenz.

Rhine/Mosel transport: trains run along both sides of the Rhine day and night, making visits quick and simple. Most Mosel destinations are also well served by train; Bernkastel requires a bus connection, but Cochem, Moselkern (Burg Eltz stop), Traben-Trarbach, Bullay, and Trier are all well served. There is no compelling reason for a car here unless you're disabled or have too much luggage or you want to stay in some very remote hotel.

Daypass options: 20-25€ per couple per day, 40€ for a 3-day VRM mini-group ticket daypass: http://www.vrminfo.de/en/tickets-and...eisure-ticket/

Path to Burg Eltz from Moselkern:
http://www.bensbauernhof.com/burgeltzfrommoselkern.html

Bavaria: Train service is generally very extensive and very good, although the terrain south of Munich makes rail service between some towns impossible and the buses that take over in these areas make for slow travel sometimes. It really depends where you're starting from and where you're going. Map of Bavarian rail lines:

http://www.bahnland-bayern.de/conten...ennetzplan-pdf

Bayern Ticket daypass and other Länder ticket daypasses:
http://www.bahn.com/i/view/GBR/en/pr...r-ticket.shtml

Russ

There are three small towns on the Rhine that stick out architecturally, IMO - Oberwesel,Bacharach and Linz; Linz is north of Koblenz on the east bank, but you won't find a lot of web references to it:

http://www.linz.de/pdf/Linz_Prospekt_2007.pdf

PalenQ

"I also know about Mosel being far more scenic and calm than Rhine."

Calmer yes - but the Rhine is more dramatic, and though different, I think you'll find it equally or more scenic.>

I agree wholeheartedly with Russ on this - I like the Rhine more even though it is not as romantic looking - I love all the commercial barge and ship plying the Rhine, which moves very swift compared to the tranquil Mosel (in part a result of it being damned up at many places) - but each is difference and folks have different preferences - Germans call The Rhine The Father Rhine and the Mosel the Mother Mosel.

luademochila

Hey, Russ. I believe I've read all your posts, I'm a big fan of you. Thanks for posting. Same is true about PalenQ, you guys have been really very helpful.

I'm pretty sure both Rhine and Mosel valleys are worth to see. Maybe 6 nights won't be enough, but there's more I want to see in Europe.

However, I was not sure about Bavaria (Munich, Nuremberg and surroundings, before going to Rhine and Mosel) because I don't know if, after seeing Mosel, going to Netherlands (Amsterdam, Delft, Kinderdijk) and Belgium (Brussels, Bruges, Dinant) would be a better option to avoid the double take, as PalenQ named it. Actually, I'm afraid my whole trip is too much "medieval", if you get me (I'll also see Prague and Cesky Krumlov). So many castles ... I like such calm and charming places, but I don't have enough experience to figure out if it isn't too much for the same trip. If after spending almost one week in Rhineland-Pfalz area and one more in Franconia/southern Bavaria I won't see no more than cobbled stone streets and half-timbered houses. I can't tell it seeing pictures, that's why I'm asking your help. Every place must be special, because going to Europe is expensive and time-consuming for someone like us, who live very far away from it (South America). We have to choose everything carefully.

So, at least one of my options would be spending 3 nights in Munich and 3 nights in Nürnberg, or 3 nights in Brussels and 3 nights in Amsterdam, to see something different. However, in a budget and time perspective, Bavaria seems to be a way better option - less time travelling, cheapper accomodations and food.

Now, I'm inclined to spending my time in Bavaria, but I'm glad to hear everything you want to say.

Russ

There really is a LOT of variety within Bavaria. 6 nights there is nothing. You can spend most of your time in the mostly modern urban centers you have chosen (Nuremberg, Munich) or you can visit the Alps in Garmisch or Berchtesgaden, or you can visit Lake Constance (Lindau is still in Bavaria!) and get a glimpse of the Swiss Alps. None of these places resemble the Rhine/Mosel area very closely.

On the other hand, I like Bruges very much in spite of the heavy load of tourists it accommodates. But yeah, it can be a little expensive.

For the most reasonably priced accommodations, you would do well to avoid Munich and Nuremberg (especially if you are intending to spend much of your time on daytrips anyway.) Smaller towns, as long as they have train connections to your destination towns, can work out nicely. For example, a few years ago we stayed 3 nights in Neustadt-an-der-Aisch, a nice little town between Nuremberg and Rothenburg in this pleasant family-owned and operated studio apartment. It rents for 28€/night:

http://www.accommodation.de/48003.htm

Train trips from there to R'burg, N'berg, Würzburg and Bamberg were simple and cheap using local daypasses. Another area outing might be the one to Bad Windsheim for the Franconian Open Air Museum:

http://www.stripes.com/military-life...useum-1.102354

Bad Windsheim (near Neustadt-an-der-Aisch) is also a prominent town on the "Beer Road" (another contrast with the Rhine/Mosel and its focus on wine) which connects several local breweries not only by road but by bike path and foot path:

http://t3-kundenserver.de.dedi661.yo...dex.php?id=832

A local beer festival takes place in the area annually on the second weekend in August. This year, it's in Bad Windsheim. Next year, Neustadt-an-der-Aisch.

You probably are already know about the Bayern Ticket - 26€ per day for two for a train and bus daypass throughout Bavaria - Salzburg is included. Also included is the train line known as the "Ausserfernbahn" that starts and ends in Germany but passes through Austria and connects Garmisch, Reutte (Austria), and Kempten.

If you end up going to Belgium and the Netherlands instead: I'd suggest an outing from A'dam to Zaanse Schans (train station is Koog-Zaandijk) to get a glimpse of life as it once was there:

http://www.zaanseschans.nl/

luademochila

Thanks again. Berchtesgaden is already on our list, we are going to do it from Salzburg. I've heard about Lindau. However, that's 2h40min each leg using regional trains. Do you think the scenery is different enough from Berchtesgaden to make it worth going there ?

About this accomodation in Neustadt, I see it's a bit far from the train station. Do you think it's suitable for us, who probably won't rent a car ? Another question, is there a hidden cleaning fee or some other extra taxes ?

The Franconian Open Air Museum looks something we gonna give a try, if we choose Bavaria. I'm still wondering.

That's good to know about that Ausserfernbahn. I've heard somewhere about the way from Reutte to Garmisch being far more scenic than the other way. Can you confirm whether it's true or not ? And how would I do that using public transport ? I can't remember where I've seen it.

Zaanse Schans looks like an option. Have you gone to Kinderdijk ? ZS is easier to do by public transport, but I'm wondering of it's as good as Kinderdijk.

Russ

"About this accomodation in Neustadt, I see it's a bit far from the train station. Do you think it's suitable for us, who probably won't rent a car ? Another question, is there a hidden cleaning fee or some other extra taxes ?"

That place was just an example of the sorts of places you can find outside of hotels. We walked to the train station from there in about 15-20 minutes as I remember, but the owners also have bikes available. There might be a minimal fee, I don't recall; there often is a small fee at privately-operated rentals if you don't stay a minimum number of days (sometimes 3, sometimes 5 or 7.) There are other options in Neustadt at this page run by the tourist office, also reasonably priced; some have homepages, some not. It's in German so try a web translator?:

http://www.neustadt-aisch.de/branche...1&ib=Pensionen

Russ

"Do you think the scenery is different enough from Berchtesgaden to make it worth going there ?"

Berchtesgaden is in the mountains. Lindau is an island town in the lake: http://www.lindau-tourismus.de/uploa...-Lindau_03.jpg

"Have you gone to Kinderdijk ? ZS is easier to do by public transport, but I'm wondering of it's as good as Kinderdijk."

I haven't. ZS had no admission charge when I was there, and we enjoyed it very much.

"I've heard somewhere about the way from Reutte to Garmisch being far more scenic than the other way. Can you confirm whether it's true or not ?"

The same line should be equally scenic in both directions. Of course, your seat will be located on only one side of the train.

PalenQ

"Have you gone to Kinderdijk ? ZS is easier to do by public transport, but I'm wondering of it's as good as Kinderdijk."

I haven't. ZS had no admission charge when I was there, and we enjoyed it very much.>

Been to both several times - do not remember an admission charge at Kinderdijk either - Zaanse Schaans has a Zuider Zee museum that does charge but you can stroll around the windmills at will - one will be working and you can peek inside.

Kinderdijk was more impression to me in its windmills, being space out much more and if I recall right bigger? But Kinderdijk even with a car can be hard to get to and both are very similar - unfortunately in kind of industrial areas though Kinderdijk less so in this regards.

I have biked to Kinderdijk and that is special - rent bikes at train stations and get a good map and use the fantastic Dutch bike paths.

ZSchaanse is easy to get to by foot but it is in a built up area - a short walk from the Koog Zandijk train station.

luademochila

"Berchtesgaden is in the mountains. Lindau is an island town in the lake:"

Haven't noticed that Lindau is an island. By the way, what a stunning photo !

Palenq, that's a good tip. Which train station was your starting point to do that ?

javafan1

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PalenQ

Lindau is not an island and I was wrong to say that but it is like an island - surrounded on most sides by water - rather it juts out into Lake Constanz spo appears to be an island- it is booked to the mainline by a peninsula or causeway or both.

NettyB2

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dwzemens

Bookmarking.