soods

Due to airline glitches, I now find that we need to land in Zurich and return from Munich. Took all advise and tried to redo our 15 nights, keeping most recommended stops. Please let me know if this makes sense. Is there enough or too much time in any stop. Also, did I get most highlights included?

Zurich 1 night
Lucerne 2 nights ( one day side trip to Mt Pilatus)
(Golden Pass to) Montreux 2 nights
Wengen 3 nights (side trip to interlaken, Bern, Thun ( bad mountain weather dependent )
Munich 3 nights (day trip to Salzberg)
Mosel Valley 2 nights
Rothenberg 1 night
Munich 1 night (by airport for early morning flight)

I really love hearing thoughts from those who know. It helps so much! All lodging recommendations are also appreciated.

Jean

What time of year?

I'd skip the one night in Zurich. You can get from the Zurich Airport to Lucerne by train in less than 90 minutes.

You have only 2 full days in Wengen plus the afternoon/evening after your arrival from Montreux. I like Bern more than most, but it's almost 2 hours by train away from Wengen. I would plan at least one day just exploring close to Wengen, take a short hike/walk or two. Interlaken wouldn't make my list. Thun would. Gimmelwald would. Were you planning to go up to the Jungfrau?

Likewise, you have just 2 full days in Munich because the train from Wengen will take 7.5-8.5 hours (and involve multiple changes). I probably wouldn't make the day trip to Salzburg, but you should decide based on your plans for Munich. Can you see what you want to see there in a single day?

I'll let the Germany experts comments on the Mosel Valley and Rothenberg plan, but it seems like a lot of ground to cover in the time available.

Michael

If you really want to see the Mosel valley, go there directly from Switzerland, and then Rothenburg and end your trip in Munich.

Or skip the Mosel but Rothenburg can be reached by train from Switzerland (we did the reverse going from Rothenburg to Aarau), and then go on to Munich. Since the train from Rothenburg requires a transfer in Würzburg, you might want to spend an afternoon there visiting the Residenz.

soods

We are going at the beginning of September. After arriving in Zurich I don't think I can handle more travel. Hence the first night there. We will leave early the next morning, so it's only the afternoon and evening there. We are planning to go up to the Jungfrau but I understand that that is weather dependent. How long would the train ride from Wengen to.the Mosel valley be as opposed to Munich? And where on the Germany side could we pick up a car for that trip?

madamtrashheap

If you think you really won't be able to handle any more travel once you arrive in Zurich, then why not stay in the Radisson Blu at the airport that night, then you can get an early start the next day from the train station at the airport.

I suggest that hotel in particular as it's attached to the airport via a covered walkway and you won't have to walk too far from arrivals to the escalator leading up to the hotel reception (10ish minutes). It's a lovely hotel, great staff and even has wine angels (!). Plus it's quite in the rooms, regardless of which side you're on, so you'll get sleep and be able to get going in the morning.

Like the others, I'm concerned at the amount of time you've allocated to see the places on your list. The train ride from Wengen to Mosel Valley will take around 8-9 hours, so I guess you have to work out how much you want to see this area or if it can wait for the next trip and you can combine it with other sights around the region (Mosel Valley, Rhein, Black Forest, even Luxembourg).

If you're deciding to drive in Germany, then you could easily take the train from Wengen to, say, Freiburg (still involves changes and time)in Germany and collect a car from the train station. There are a few companies with offices at/near the station.

I second the suggestion to stay in Munich at the end of your trip, rather than to-ing and fro-ing. That way you can also drop your car at one of their locations in Munich and not have to drive during your time in the city as public transport will suit your purposes (even to Dachau and Salzburg).

michelhuebeli

Zurich 1 night

Lucerne 2 nights ( one day side trip to Mt Pilatus)

(Golden Pass to) Montreux 2 nights

Wengen 3 nights (side trip to interlaken, Bern, Thun ( bad mountain weather dependent )
Munich 3 nights (day trip to Salzberg)

Mosel Valley 2 nights

Rothenberg 1 night

Munich 1 night (by airport for early morning flight)

That doesn’t work for me at all. Too much backtracking and zig-zagging - you have not allowed the time for that.

Flaws in your plan:

1) The night in Zürich - trains leave from underneath the Zürich airport, head for Lucerne on arrival. That gives you three nights/two full days in Lucerne, plus whatever is left of the day of checking into your Lucerne hotel.

2) That all-day train trip (Golden Pass) from Lucerne to Montreux - too long, too boring for long stretches - whether you take the “Golden Pass” tourist train or regular trains that follow the same tracks and provide the same views.

Instead, take the train from Lucerne to Berne and spend a few hours, that’s all it takes, then carry on to Wengen, stay there and do sightseeing trips (Jungfraujoch, Schilthorn, or any of the many other Bernese Oberland targets). After a few nights, take the train to the Mosel area (skip Montreux).

3) Why Montreux? Do you have specific plans? It’s OK, but out of the way for your schedule, takes up much time, and doesn’t offer all that much in such a short time. If you do go, take the train (also a “Golden Pass” line) up to Les Rochers de Naye (look it up) and visit nearby Chateau Chillon.

4) Don’t go to Munich twice, you don’t have the time to do that. From the Bernese Oberland (or from Montreux if you go there) go to the Mosel Valley, that’s already quite a haul. Then go from there to Munich and see if you can fit Rothenburg ob der Tauber in on the way (it’s out of the way and a bit time-consuming to get there).

Once in Munich, stay there until it’s time to fly out. Take an early train to Salzburg (not Salzberg) and a late train back.

So - recapping: From Zürich straight to Lucerne. From Lucerne to Bern and on to Wengen. Skip Montreux unless it breaks your heart... Go to the Mosel region, from there via Rothenburg ob der Tauber (if feasible) to Munich, stay there until you fly home.

aussie_10

Hi Soods

We have just returned from a similar trip to yours in September/October but we had longer.

As others have said once you land in Zurich catch a train to Lucerne, so much better than wasting a night. We stayed in Lucerne and I especially picked Hotel Monopol, literally across the road from the train station, so easy and not taxis buses etc. Once checked in its any easy walk to the Chapel Bridge and lake area.

Next day we caught a boat on Lake Lucerne to Alpnachstad (lovely and relaxing after your flight).Caught the cog railway up to Mt Pilatus and Gondola down, loved our day. You could add a day here if you want (we stayed 2 nights).

We moved on to Wengen and sent our bags through, so it would be easy if you wanted to stop off in Bern. We loved our stay in Wengen (stayed 4 nights). 1 day down to Interlaken & boat trip to Thun as weather was not good in the mountains. 1 day across to Murren and down to Trummelbach falls and Lauterbrunnen, 1 day up to Mannelichen and a hike to Kleine Scheidegg. We did not go to the Jungfrau as we had been before.

We then caught a train to Montreux, whilst we had a nice time there, if I had my choice again I would spend the time elsewhere. So I would recommend you not going to Montreux and using the valuable days elsewhere.

We caught a train to Frieburg and picked up a rental car there. However we spent some time in the Black Forest. (you could get the train further north and then pick up a car).

We also spent time in the Mosel (7 nights), loved it and 1 night in Bacharach, just to do a Rhine river trip. We drove on to Wurzburg and also Rothenberg. Then on to Munich. After Munich we then went to Salzburg.

So in summary I would save the Zurich night together with the 2 Montreux nights and use it somewhere else. Maybe add 1 night to Wengen of Lucerne, 1 night to Mosel and i night to Rothenberg area. I am not a fan of 1 night stays. I agree with others and would put Munich last. We dropped our car in the day we arrived. Also check dates for Octoberfest (it actually starts in September). As Munich accommodation is very busy then)

I hope this may help with your planning as we were there at similar times and similar places.
I am happy to help with any questions There are many experts here who helped with my plans, but if I can help just ask.

michelhuebeli

aussie 10 mentions "...We caught a train to Frieburg and picked up a rental car there..."

Just to avoid confusion: There are two cities on or near your itinerary with the name Freiburg (neither is spelled Frieburg).

One is in Switzerland, a short distance west of Berne, and is on the language border, its name in German is Freiburg and - used more often - in French as Fribourg.

The other is - by its full name - Freiburg im Breisgau, in Germany north of Basel, the main access city for the Black Forest region among others.

And - while we're at it - another spelling item that could make a difference: It's Rothenburg ob der Tauber (not Rothenberg), and note that there are a half dozen other Rothenburgs in Germany, but none of them on the river Tauber, hence the "ob der Tauber" to clarify.

(BTW: A "burg" is a fortified castle, a "berg" is a mountain.)

Hope this helps in your planning.

neckervd

I fully second Michel. But check whether your Berne stopover would not be easier after having visited the Bernese Oberland:
ZRH - Lucerne - Bruenig - Jungfrau area - BERNE - Basel and then either - Luxemburg - Trier or Mannheim - Koblenz.
Bern - Koblenz takes 5 hrs; trains every hr.
It would be much more scenic to do Mainz/Bingen - Koblenz ore vice versa by boat, however.

soods

Is Lake Geneva not worth seeing? Or the vineyards around Montreux? Those towns were supposed to be beautiful. I agree it's too much back and forth. I had it planned differently until the airlines changed our flights. So now I will take all of your good ideas into consideration. We never planned to use the car in Munich, just pick it up there to go to the Mosel and so on. Then we were going to drop it at the airport where we are staying for the night to catch a 5 am flight home. I don't want to spend all nights at the airport hotel in Munich, so it still leaves me with the issue of two different hotels for our Munich stay. What are all of your thoughts on that?
Thanks for the help!

soods

Also aussie_10, how do you send your bags ahead? We are not light travelers, so where would we leave bags if we did a stop over in Bern or anywhere else?

Michael

<i>Is Lake Geneva not worth seeing?</i>

I did not find it as scenic as smaller lakes, such as the lac d'Annecy.

michelhuebeli

As I said - Montreux is OK (I lived there for a while), as long as you don't just stroll the lakefront promenade, that gets old quickly, but as long as you stay long enough to go up on Les Rochers de Naye, and stop off in Glion or Caux to look down and across, and check out the Chillon castle, and swing through the wine country of Montreux and Vevey etc.. It is situated on the lakefront and, yes, the wine-growing hills make for a nice background, and the Mnt Blanc across the lake looks great o a good day.

But you don't have the time, you would have to short-change other parts of your program to make it to Montreux, and in my book it's not worth it. You will have other pretty lakefront scenarios (Lucerne, Interlaken as you head up into the mountains) and riverfront scenarios and wine-growing scenarios (Mosel for one)..

Don't be heavy packers, with a trip like yours you'll get soooo sick of having to lug all this stuff! No porters, few lifts and elevators and escalators - lots of stairs and steps and cobblestones and other inconveniences - too much luggage is a joy-killer!

With a program of moving around as much as you will, including changing trains in many a station, master the art of traveling light - that's easy thanks to the smart apparel available from many sources - Travel Smith, Magellans, Ex Officio, and others. You can look more than presentable in garments that rinse out in a sink and are dry by morning, and you'll be so glad to carry only a smart minimum!

Make Munich your last city, take a hotel right in Munich and arrange to get to your flight from there - even if it is an early one. A taxi will get you there, it's not that far, and you only gain a half hour that morning by staying near the airport - not worth it, you'll have to get up at an ungodly hour no matter what.

For the door-to-door luggage service by the Swiss railways check http://www.sbb.ch/en/station-service...r-baggage.html

But in Bern there is a convenient luggage storage in the station right at street level, before you step out into the historic city center adjacent to the train station, so that's easy (again, if you don't have too much stuff - just a cabin-legal rollaway and daypack per person).

NeckerVD makes a good point - if you can stop in Berne on your way from the Oberland to the Mosel region, that's a good option. In that case you should make sure that your trip from Lucerne to Interlaken is via Brünig-Hasliberg, the direct route, it's a prettier route than via Berne.

Trains for Berne leave Wengen every hour at :03 after the hour, and it takes 1:49 hr. Allow for a few hours strolling around Berne, with a scrumptious lunch somewhere, and maybe take the 14:04 from Bern, it gets to Trier at 20:12 (with three switches of trains en route, in Basel, Mannheim, and Saarbrücken), or the 15:04 (arr. Trier 21:06, switches in Basel and Luxembourg). Koblenz is a bit quicker. See www.sbb.ch for timetables.

soods

Thanks for all the info. I've been reworking this and have come up with some new ideas. First I have to say that my husband and I love to drive with short stops in places that catch our eye. Also we don't mind one night stops. We do fit in a lot but only because we don't know if we'll ever have the chance to come back to the same countries again. That being said, here's what I'm looking at..

Airport to Lucern 3 nights with side trips to Bern and lake cruise
Wengen 3 nights
Train to Black Forest one night (need help with a good place to pick up car and to stop for the day after long train from interlaken)
Mosell 2 nights
Rhine river 1 night ( just long enough for a sightseeing short cruise)
Rothenburg 1 night
Munich 4 nights (day trip to Salzburg )

Does this sound a little better?

aussie_10

Yes soods that does sound better.
It is often hard putting the jigsaw pieces together.

When we were in Lucerne we checked our bags in at the main station, there is a special desk. I think we had to check them in by 9am (you can check this on the rail site, I think someone gave you the link previously).
We then caught part of the Golden Pass line to Brienz and got off there wandered around and then caught a boat on Lake Brienz to Interlaken, very pretty scenery. and then 2 trains up to Wengen. We thought it was worthwhile as we had more freedom to wander with only day packs. We then picked our luggage up at Wengen station at 6pm.

We picked our car up at Frieburg im Breisgau in Germany (Black Forest). We stayed near Gengenbach a nice Medieval town. We also spent a couple of nights in Alsace (I know you do not have time to add that in, we love Alsace).

In the Mosel we stayed in Cochem. We drove from Cochem to Bacharach and caught a 11.15 Boat all the way to Koblenze, had a look around and then caught a train back to Bacharach and stayed the night.

I think staying in Munich at the end is perfect.

Hope this helps

michelhuebeli

Yes, this looks like a fun itinerary.

As I had mentioned in my earlier post, Freiburg im Breisgau (that's the full name to avoid any confusion with other Freiburgs) is the most convenient major city near the Black Forest area.

It's less than 4 hours by train from Wengen to Freiburg, the 07:03 gets there by 10:55 - plenty of time to get your wheels and explore the Black Forest and find your lodgings.

As to where to stay - somewhere in reach of the Titisee (lake) could be nice - see http://www.black-forest-travel.com/l...e/titisee.html

Congratulations on cutting back - I know it's not easy, with so many tempting locations seemingly so close - but you'll enjoy this itinerary!

Aramis

I would suggest staying all three days on the Mosel and use one to visit the Rhine. Cochem to Koblenz, Boppard, etc. is only about 45-50 mins. You have to assess whether you would rather add 90 minutes of scenic day trip driving or change hotels for one night.

Michael

To me the itinerary suggests train travel all the way. No need to pick up a car in Freiburg. The OP expressed specific site interests: the Mosel valley, Rothenburg, Munich. All easily accessible by train.

Aramis

And all even more easily accessible by car. I guess I was relying on the OP's expressed interest in driving rather than what the trip suggested to me;

>>Thanks for all the info. I've been reworking this and have come up with some new ideas. First I have to say >>that my husband and I love to drive with short stops in places that catch our eye.

soods

Thanks everyone!