steve_Australia

Hello again fellow Fodorites.
I have come up against some planning difficulties with our next European holiday.

Our plan is to see Spain and Portugal - for the first time - and combine this with visiting selected places in two of our favourite countries. Switzerland and Italy!

I usually begin the planning process by selecting an entry/exit city; jot down the places we would like to visit in between those two cities and finally work out how long in each place to stay.
Unfortunately, I am having a lot of trouble working out the entry city AND the basic itinerary leading up to the exit city of Rome due solely to the geographic difficulties of logically navigating to the next stop and need your help

To outline the trip:

* The start of our trip is not until around April, 2016
* Entry city must be either Barcelona or Madrid (using SIA or EMIRATES)
* Exit city will be Rome
* We plan to visit the following countries/bases:

SPAIN:
Barcelona (Girona, Tarragona day trips?)
Madrid (Toledo, Segovia and El Escorial day trips?)
Grenada (Malaga, Ronda, Marbella day trips?)
Seville (Cordoba, Jerez de la Frontera, Cadiz day trips?)
San Sebastian

PORTUGAL:
Lisbon (Sintra, Fatima day trip?)
Porto

SWITZERLAND:
Brienz

ITALY:
Bologna
Cinque Terre
Florence
Rome

FRANCE:
Sete
Lyon

* We plan to catch a train from Barcelona to Sete and visit friends for a few days. Then train again to Brienz in Switzerland via Lyon (which we would like to see for a few hours if possible) and whatever other Swiss city is required as a change station.
*From Brienz we wish to travel to Italy and our first stay will probably be Bologna.

I know it sounds like a lot of places to see, but we have allowed NINE weeks for the trip - my wife will be retired by then and I have owed leave

I found the biggest hurdle trying to figure out how to get around Spain and Portugal with San Sebastian thrown in the mix - my wife is extremely keen to visit SS.
Spain on its own is a bit of a doddle with their AVE high-speed rail system. However, adding in Portugal and SS is an itinerary nightmare.

Also, because we plan to leave for Switzerland (via France) from Barcelona, we ideally would like that city to be the final Spanish destination.

In addition, it seems that Sete to Brienz AND Brienz to Bologna is a bit of a marathon train event.

Any and all suggestions will be most welcome.

Thank you in advance and warm regards,

Steve

PalenQ

Are you doing that all by train? no flights like Spain to Zurich? If all by train then be sure to look at some kind of railpass for so many trips over a 2-month period (maximum length of Eurail Flexipasses - X number of unlimited travel days to be sued when you want over 2 months.

Anyway my usual train sites to spotlight - www.seat61.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.ricksteves.com.

PalenQ

You can take a bus from Ronda to Seville and pass thru several of the famous perched white villages of Andalusia. More direct than train.

bilboburgler

No help on the transport bit but I would swap Malaga for Marbella (home of bank robbers and fading pop stars) any day of the week.

You could fly Bilbao to Lisbon

PalenQ

again to Brienz in Switzerland via Lyon (which we would like to see for a few hours if possible) and whatever other Swiss city is required as a change station.>

there is a sweet alternate way to going via Geneva - go up and over the Alps via Chamonix by train - then a dramatic Alpine narrow-gauge train to Martigny in Switzerland and onto Brienz - about as quick as via Geneva but either way is a long day - two hours in Lyon will show you the nice city itself and be a great break of journey but I do not think you'd have time to stop that day in anywhere else.

Chamonix makes a superb overnight and day or two too.

PalenQ

There are night trains between Seville, Granada and Barcelona and between Lisbon and Madrid and also one to San Sebastian - if you don't want to fly or spend all day on a train thru in Spain rather boring scenery in the interior most of the way.

bvlenci

Would you be willing to rent a car for any part of this trip? We once had a very pleasant driving trip from Segovia to Ávila to Salamanca to Toledo.

Getting from Brienz to Bologna will take nearly a whole day, on a minimum of three or four trains. I've done the part from Luzern to Bologna (and beyond) in a single day. The scenery in the Alps is spectacular. You can buy the tickets as far as Milan on the Swiss rail site, but when I did it, they didn't have e-tickets, and I had to have them mailed to me (in Italy). At that time they wouldn't mail them outside of Europe. Since you'll be in Europe before arriving in Switzerland, you could buy the tickets at a travel agent in Spain or Portugal.

You have to change once between Luzern and Milan, in one of several places. We changed in Arth-Goldau, and that was an easy change, because the two trains were on different sides of the same platform. Milan is fairly easy, also. The trains as far as wherever you change south of Luzern are interregional trains, with no seat reservations, so you can buy them at the last minute. The EC train from there to Milan has reservations, optional within Switzerland, but obligatory in Italy. The trains from Milan to Bologna are reserved trains. The reserved trains (including the EC) have good discounts for advance purchase, but the discounted tickets can't be changed or refunded, so I wouldn't get one unless the savings are substantial and unless you're sure of your travel times.

You should really pare your luggage down to the bare necessities because of all the moving around by train that you're planning. On that trip from Switzerland to my home in Italy, my sister was with me. Our house was about the halfway point of her trip. By the time she got here, she was so sick of her luggage that she abandoned almost half of it here. I'm still using a lot of the stuff she left behind.

steve_Australia

Hi Bvlenci, it sounds like you scored with your sister's gear, ha ha. Yes, we are aware of the luggage and trains. This will be our third European trip and our inter-city transport has been exclusively trains so far. Our luggage has lessened with each trip. The past two trips though, we have usually had a 3 or 4 hour train trip. The Sete to Brienz and Brienz to Bologna do concern me a little. Also, anything direct is a breeze, but we once travelled by train from Munich to Rothenburg and that required 3 changes. Not fun when you have luggage in tow!

Hi Palen - always happy to read your input. Your previous life of working and travelling through Europe has been a tremendous help to us in the past.

We will probably have a look at flying. It's just in the past we have had such a good experience using trains for the usual reasons. Close to the centre of the city; don't have to arrive 90 minutes in advance; no need for checking luggage etc etc. But - we usually only travel for 3 or 4 hours. Also, if you visit www.seat61.com as many times as I have, you are almost too scared to suggest flying - Mark is not a fan, ha ha.

Thanks for the tip about the bus from Ronda to Seville. Also, the route via Chamonix sounds great. Could you explain more about that alternative please? Where do we board the train and where are the changes?

One question that has not been addressed - and I know it is difficult - is which is the best direction to take once we arrive in Spain?

Should we arrive in Barcelona and make our way to SS and then down through Portugal and around the south of Spain and head back up via Madrid to Barcelona again? Or do we take a different approach?

Thanks for all the suggestions, they really do help.

Regards,

Steve

bvlenci

My sister isn't the only person to have abandoned gear at my house! Sometimes people have left an entire bag here. I've got two backpacks, a garment bag, and a large purse that were dropped here. It's one of the reasons I advise people to pack light: most of them don't have a sister in Italy. Whatever I can't use myself, I donate to the local Caritas.

I like train rides, and don't mind if they're long, but I'm not a fanatic. When it makes more sense, I fly.

I would recommend the train trip from Brienz to Bologna, just because of the spectacular scenery, at least as far as Milan, and from there to Bologna is just a short hop. You could break the trip somewhere along the line to have lunch and stretch your legs.

There are routes from Brienz to Milan that are shorter than the one I mentioned, but they leave either early in the morning or else in the afternoon. They all pass through Interlaken instead of Luzern. I ignored routes with four or more changes of train.

bilboburgler

SS to Porto by car is a lovely if long journey. That is why I suggested flying to Lisbon, then I'd take a train to Porto. Porto to Madrid then and finally down south by train.

steve_Australia

Thanks bvlenci, the trip through the Alps sounds nice. I agree about the number of changes, they are no fun. We stayed in Brienz for a week a few years ago and made the trip from Brienz to Luzern a couple of times so travelling from there to Milan would suit.

We will be using an 8-day Swiss Pass while in Switzerland. Do you know if the trip from Luzern to Milan is covered by this pass - or just to the Italian border?

Hi bilboburgler, I am starting to think a couple of flights may be required here. I don't like the sound of bussing it from SS to Porto so will probably take your advice on this leg. Then on to Madrid and down south sounds a great plan. Thanks for the suggestions, they are much appreciated.

kja

"One question that has not been addressed - and I know it is difficult - is which is the best direction to take once we arrive in Spain?"

You might want to map the things you want to see out on a calendar. MANY -- but NOT all -- things in Spain are closed on Sunday afternoons and all day on Monday, so you might find that one routing better matches your aspirations than others.

Should be a great trip!

steve_Australia

Hi kja - thanks for that tip. I didn't really allow for that and I <i>should</i> know better because we got stung a few times in Italy with various venues closed.

PalenQ

We will be using an 8-day Swiss Pass while in Switzerland. Do you know if the trip from Luzern to Milan is covered by this pass - or just to the Italian border?>

Only to Domodosssola or Brig - not in Italy at all. Ask the ticket window for a supplemental ticket from the last Swiss station - I believe Domodossola or www.trenitalia.com and book online in advance for a minor discount - full fare is not that much.

There have been big changes recently to the Swiss Pass - is yours an 8-consecutive-day pass - if so no real changes - if a 8-day flexipass big changes.

kja

@ steve_Australia -- yes, that's a lesson I learned the hard way.

steve_Australia

Hi Palen,
Ours is an 8-consecutive-day pass. The only thing I have noticed that appears to have changed is that we were given a considerable discount last time if the two of us agreed to travel together at all times - which we had intended anyway.

However, I can't find that option now when visting http://www.swiss-pass.ch/