Renting an apt.

Old Jan 26th, 2015, 12:12 PM
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Renting an apt.

I used to rent apts. in my trips to Europe but haven't in awhile.

So I've looked around a bit on VRBO and AirBnB and there seems to be a variety of conditions.

For a 5-day rental in Paris for instance, some owners ask for over $1000 in security deposit.

Does VRBO or AirBnB mediate disputes if deposits aren't returned?

One listing I liked was from a new VRBO owner but he wants the full 850 Euro paid upfront, which is unusual compared to other listings.

Booking.com also has some listings for apts. and they also have special conditions, like paying 25% up front and paying the rest in cash at checkin.

One of the reasons I went away from apts. to hotels is having to deal in cash, either wiring the deposit amount, leaving a "refundable" damage deposit and even having to deal with withdrawing several hundred Euros from ATMs at once.

Are people having positive VRBO and AirBnB experiences here or is it entirely dependent on the owner?
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Old Jan 26th, 2015, 12:33 PM
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I think the best you can hope for here are a few individual reports. Do the places you like have reviews? I try to go by reviews.

We used Flipkey in France this year and I liked their policies, which I clarified by phone using their toll free number. I also like using agencies that accept credit cards.
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Old Jan 26th, 2015, 12:44 PM
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Your payment experience, whether good or bad, is entirely dependent on the owner of the rental. There is a certain level of trust required in a cash transaction. If the listing is new and the owner is an unknown, you'll need to wade through more red flags than normal. If your gut says no-go, I would trust your gut.

Security deposits are not uncommon for furnished vacation apartment rentals. The amount can be any number the owner wishes, but it's usually based on the value of the apartment's contents, length of stay, and the number of people using the place. One tends to be a more careful guest when there's money on the line.

In all the decades I've rented cash-only apartments, I've never experienced an owner attempt to rip me off. But I do my homework. I would never hand over a security deposit "before" I take possession of the keys, and I must receive the security deposit back when I give back the keys at departure.
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Old Jan 26th, 2015, 12:54 PM
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I thought some of the listings said they'd return the deposit within a week after checking out?

Yeah that seems sketchy now. They're going to wire or mail it to you?
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Old Jan 26th, 2015, 01:04 PM
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"I thought some of the listings said they'd return the deposit within a week after checking out?"

No ordinary person with half a brain, who has done the homework, is going to view that stipulation as reasonable.
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Old Jan 26th, 2015, 01:28 PM
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Flipkey displays a certain price per night and then when you click for full details, it shows a total for the stay which is higher than the sum of the individual nights.

Are they adding in all the fees like the cleaning fees and such?
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Old Jan 26th, 2015, 02:01 PM
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I've not used VRBO or Air B&B, but I often rent apartments directly from owners in Switzerland (as well as Australia and New Zealand).

In almost every instance, payment has been required in full and up front, which is also the policy here in Australia when booking private rentals.

I have on occasion made arrangements to pay in cash upon arrival to avoid bank fees, and some owners have waived the security deposit or agreed to take it in cash upon arrival. One place agreed to take it in cash, and then immediately waived it when they saw us - we must look pretty harmless.

I've never had a problem, but it certainly is a leap of faith.

You might check with tourist offices - one of our recent rentals in Switzerland was found, arranged and paid for via the tourist office in Gstaad - it was all done online, paid in full in advance and they accepted credit cards which made things more straightforward. They also required mandatory cancellation insurance which they provided for a fee.

>

I must be brainless then, because I did that very thing with a rental here in Australia. They required a $250 bond via bank transfer to be returned a week after vacating the property. I did and they did, no worries.

I'd be less comfortable doing it for a rental outside of the country though, too many variables such as bank transfer fees, differing currencies, exchange rates, etc.
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Old Jan 26th, 2015, 02:11 PM
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For instance this apt. for 5 nights is quoting a price of $1225 plus $650 deposit.

https://www.flipkey.com/paris-condo-rentals/p194050/

When I click Request Rental, you are prompted to fill in your credit card info for a PayPal payment for $1875 and it says the owner would return the $650 10 days after the rental ends.

So they wouldn't return the money when you return the key in this case.
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Old Jan 26th, 2015, 02:19 PM
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Ten days is probably how long it takes to post the refund on credit card. I suspect it's the credit card company that takes so long, not the owner.

$650 seems pretty steep though.
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Old Jan 26th, 2015, 02:20 PM
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Paris is cracking down on owners short term renting their apartments. Technically it is illegal..has been for years.. but no one did much about it till recently. Apartment vacancies in the city are scarce.. so locals are up in arms about the apartments being rented to tourists.. therefore removing them from the pool of available apartments for residents.. and of course city wants the taxes from the revenue ..which in most cases are not being paid.
The thing is.. there are thousands of such rentals.. so the process of cracking down on them is going to take awhile.. but the problem is now neighbors are turning in their neighbors who are renting to tourists. They are sick of the in and out of strangers ,, the apartment security codes being given out to strangers on a weekly if not more often basis.

So.. renting an apartment in Paris is now taking on a different risk..

There ARE legal short term rentals.Owners of apartments are allowed to rent out their PRIMARY RESIDENSE for up to 3 months a year. However..its hard to determine if the apartment you rent will be legal or not, and of course if you ask the owner they will assure you they are.

The risk is that you may have a rental cancelled at last minute by an owner that has been "caught". This happened recently to a poster on another forum, they were lucky their rental wasn't for a few months however,, so they have had time to rebook. What if it happens the week before you arrive though?

So, while I have rented apartments in Paris, I am seriously considering returning to hotel usage( which frankly I don't mind, I have several hotels I have used and liked and are in my price budget and would return to happily).
Pros of hotel accomadation is no big up front deposit, and often good cancellation policies.

I personally would never pay the full amount for a rental up front.. what if you arrive and apartment is not as pictured .. or not as described.you are stuck as in almost any case I have heard of getting refunds is very difficult.
It may be one thing if apartment is inhabitable.. but what if owner just glossed over some small points.. area isn't as nice as they say.. rooms are smaller, bed harder etc etc.

Its a calculated risk to rent an apartment in Paris right now , paying the whole amount up front is another risk I wouldn't take.
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Old Jan 26th, 2015, 02:47 PM
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Good points but it seems impossible to rent an apt. without paying down at least a few hundred dollars..

So even if you can pay 75% on arrival, you're unlikely to lose 25% because you decide to cancel after inspecting the place?


Yeah the place on FlipKey is asking not only for the $650 deposit but all of the rental charged to your credit card right away.

Do these web sites bother to hold the money in case there are disputes or just remit the money right away? Seems unlikely they'd hold to make sure everything was okay before sending the money through.
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Old Jan 26th, 2015, 02:58 PM
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I work with Thierry at parisbestlodge.com. He has never steered me wrong on three rentals over the last few years. The apartments are as advertised and he is trustworthy.
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Old Jan 26th, 2015, 03:19 PM
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"in case there are disputes"

If you are a dispute-minded customer or someone who obsesses about the potential for something going wrong, you should avoid vacation rental properties. Owners prefer not to deal with unreasonable people, which is why some properties come with fairly strict rules. If you can't afford the risk of losing any pre-paid monies, then you are not the customer for the properties who require these stipulations.

"I must be brainless then"

Not necessarily. It sounds to me like you did a risk assessment and determined the owner is reliable.

Everyone views risk differently. If you do the homework, only you can determine the definition of risk or just how much risk you're willing to endure.

If I want a house badly enough, and the owner passes every smell test available, then I might decide to accept the owner's "unreasonable" rules. The key is in the homework. Many of these rental sites offer web pages to help you make smart security decisions.

"Paris is cracking down…"

Paris was once a city that embraced the apartment rental vacationer, especially those from the U.S. I once partnered with two other people and invested in a fixer-upper on Place des Vosges. We worked very hard to improve the neighborhood. We enjoyed that special place for almost two decades and sold it for a fortune in late 2006. In the meantime, Paris changed. She has grown more fearful of "the other," no matter who that other might actually be. IMO, the "anti" sentiment in Paris is rising to dangerous heights, which reminds me of some ugly history. I suppose this is what happens to a society in the face of fear.

I'm a firm believer, if you're hell-bent on making me feel unwelcome, then I will stay away and spend my money elsewhere. I'm glad I'm no longer a property owner in Paris, and my opinion of Paris is quite different from the romantic version you read about on this forum.

I know some wonderful, loving people who were born and raised in Paris and still live there. Unfortunately, their viewpoint is not represented on this board.
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Old Jan 26th, 2015, 03:49 PM
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Wow Thierry has an empire now. I remember he used to only have a couple of apts.


FWIW, Flipkey says they guarantee rentals up to $10k. So if a listing owner takes all the money but can't rent, Flipkey would refund the money?


I'm also considering apt. rentals in Amsterdam and London. Any similar restrictions in those cities?
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Old Jan 26th, 2015, 04:12 PM
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We rented in Amsterdam and are not aware of any restrictions as found in Paris. For more information, look for my trip report; click on my name to find it.
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Old Jan 26th, 2015, 06:24 PM
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Hmm, Flipkey seems to be holding the deposit:

"When will I get my damage deposit back?

We automatically release refundable deposits once 10 days have passed after check-out. This holding period gives the owner 7 days to access the property to ensure there are no damages. The additional 3 days allow ample time for us to process a claim and reimburse you if necessary.

Please note, it can take 7-10 business days before a refund is available on an online statement. Depending on your credit card provider, it may appear as a credit on your month's statement. Please be sure to contact your credit card provider if you do not see your refund in the allotted time frame. "


Also tries to encourage you to pay through Flipkey web site, warning against wire transfers or paying in cash:

How do I submit payment safely?

We recommend paying securely by credit card, preferably online through the FlipKey website, whenever possible. Owners/managers can send you a request for payment via FlipKey, and many also accept traveler initiated booking requests directly through their listing. By paying through the FlipKey site, your booking will be protected by our Peace of Mind Guarantee.

Note that some property owners/managers on FlipKey are eligible to accept funds outside of our system. If paying outside of FlipKey, we advise travelers:

Do not pay by wire transfer. There is no protection for these payments, and they cannot be traced. Requests for payment via wire transfer can be legitimate, and some form of electronic payment may be required in your destination, but we recommend that you exercise caution if payment via Western Union or MoneyGram is required.

Be cautious of requests for payment in cash. In some countries, large cash payments are discouraged or illegal, and it is best to pay via credit card when possible. In the rare occasion of a scam or unlawful rental, the credit card company may help, giving each traveler added protection.

Be suspicious if asked to pay a person other than the one you have been dealing with.

Be aware of where you are asked to send the payment. Be weary if you’re asked to send payment to a bank account in an obscure country or to an account in someone else’s name.
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Old Jan 26th, 2015, 06:46 PM
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I have rented from Thierry at Parisbestlodge. Been very happy with arrangements and my two units.

One very good thing about some of his apartment is 4-5 of them are in the same building.,, and he and partners own the entire building.. and there are only their few units in it so there are no neihbors to complain!!
Look at the Emeralda.. we loved it.
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Old Jan 26th, 2015, 09:53 PM
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With www.onefinestay.com you do not deal with the owner, but with Onefinestay. Payments are by credit card, you do not pay a deposit upfront. Since you deal with the company rather than the owner, they will find you another flat in case of problems.
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Old Jan 26th, 2015, 10:27 PM
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Tulips those are outrageous prices.. the cheapest place in Paris is high.. and the location not that great!
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Old Jan 27th, 2015, 12:08 AM
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You pay for the service, with cleaning, beds made up with nice linens, a free Iphone to use during your stay and the security of dealing just with one company rather than an owner.
Prices are more like those of good hotels, but you'll get much more space than you would in a hotel.
We let a flat with them in London, and it's booked very often, sometimes for weeks on end.
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