http://www.youchef.tv/?option=com_jrecipe&view=jrecipedetail&cid=1280&Itemid=41&lang=en

http://www.baltazar.it/bologna/423870-le-mura-bologna.html

Ok, then, by raw he meant ceviche. Interesting to find Latin American cuisine on the menu.

It's not so different from sushi (though I don't think I've ever seen raw shrimp sushi come to think of it).

That said, I've never seen or been offered raw shrimp anywhere in Italy.

And ceviche isn't technically "raw." It's "cooked" in the acids it's prepared in.

The restaurant is Sicilian, not Latin American.

http://www.osterialemurabologna.it/

By the way, uncooked sea foods -- known as "crudo di pesce" -- are served in most coastal areas of Italy. Here is a recipe from the Amalfi that includes raw shrimp:

http://www.lucianopignataro.it/a/come-si-prepara-un-buon-crudo-di-pesce/11657/

To clarify: I'm surprised to see dish strongly associated with Latin American cuisine on the menu in a Sicilian restaurant in Bologna. As StCirc points out, technically it isn't raw, but I think that's probably what the owner meant.

On the other hand, the shrimp I was served didn't have any acid or citrus flavor ... but maybe he just substituted fresh steamed shrimp for me.

Zeppole, all of your links are to recipes with a ceviche-type preparation.

Ok, not the last one.

Ceviche is NOT a typical Italian preparation. It's not Italian at all.

They may serve crudi di pesce inb Italian coastal areas (not just shrimp but other shellfish and fish), but it's NOT that common. From what I can tell there are a handful of go-to funky young restaurants trying to bank on a sushi-type experience with raw shellfish including shrimp, and charging outrageous prices for it, but they're not places ordinary Italians are flocking to, just tourists. If there's a tradition of eating raw shrimp, the Italians who do so are probably doing it at home and not blabbing about it on the internet.

I imagine the waiter just had your shrimp steamed, as he assumed you didn't want them raw, and didn't add any citrus or acid, because after steaming it wouldn't necessarily need it.

"And ceviche isn't technically "raw." It's "cooked" in the acids it's prepared in."

Actually, ceviche isn't technically "cooked." The acid marinade causes it to take on the texture of "cooked," but it isn't as effective as heat in killing the parasites, larval nematodes, bacteria and other contaminants which may be present in raw fish or seafood.

Several years ago a travel companion of mine was made seriously ill by crudo di pesce she ate in Rome. She spent several days in hospital in Italy, was eventually medevac-d home to the US and spent three more weeks in hospital there. Her full recuperation took about six months.

St Cirq doesn't know what she is talking about.

Mediterranean fish preserved in vinegar and acids is common throughout the Mediterranean world and a very old recipe. It came to Italy from the Arabs, but so long ago, It would be ridiculous to say it's "not Italian" -- as ridiculous as saying polenta wasn't italian. The Sicilians have been making a form of ceviche long before the discovery of the Americas, and you can find a variant on the Liguria mediterranean (where uncooked fish is more commonly preserved in salt) and in Catalonia.

Crudo di pesce is not some experiment in Italy confined to a few "go-to-funky restaurants" only patronized by tourists. Raw fish preparations and other raw fish dishes have been on menus all around coastal Italy for at least two decades or longer, although in central urban places like Bologna, fish restaurants are typically run by Sicilian or Pugliese transplants.

Here is a Pugliese "blabbing on the Internet" about the tradition of eating raw fish in Puglia:and how common it is to find it as appetizer in a Pugliese seaside restaurant

http://valentinaexpressions.com/tag/raw-fish-in-italy/

Actually, if one wanted to assess the influence of sushi on Italian menus, the way to understand it would be to say that sushi made it easier to bring traditional regional raw fish dishes out onto menus into other regions and urban centers in Italy. It is also true that young Italians have traveled more wisely, are more anti-carb and like to "graze" in the now-international style, so that crudo di pesce is increasingly popular and profitable on menus in Italy. But to say crudo di pesce isn't Italian, or that it is a brand new trend, is mistaken. When Italians serve sushi or want sushi, they call it sushi.

I meant to type "young Italians have traveled more widely" -- and that would include Latin America. There has also been a steady influx of Latin American immigration, some of whom eventually open restaurants, and that may also count for something.

If I'm not mistaken, one of ekscrunchy's trip reports describes how she ate raw sea urchins in Puglia at a traditional roadside stand, haven been led there by locals. What St Cirq describes isn't reality. Even the restaurant capxxx went to isn't what St Cirq describes.

From a 5-year-old artilele in "Wine News" magazine":


"David Pasternak, chef-owner of Manhattan's Esca (an Italian word that means bait), a restaurant specializing in Southern Italian seafood, has paved the way for the latest national culinary fad: crudo. Various fish, octopus and other sea creatures are served raw, straight from ice-packed crates to diners at Esca. Pasternak, author of The Young Man and the Sea, and James Beard award recipient for Best Chef in New York City in 2004, explains, "Crudo is [basically] Italian sashimi. It's raw fish that's dressed with olive oil, sea salt, sometimes lemon juice, lime juice, sometimes some kind of weird vinegars and stuff like that." While the pesce crudo concept sounds very 21st century, it actually isn't. Goldstein points out, "I first ate it in Apulia 25 years ago, where it's an old tradition, especially among seafaring people."

Just to be clear, when the article above refers to "latest national culinary fad: crudo", the nation referred to is not Italy, but America.

@capxxx,

It occurs to me to add that (as you know) "Latin" America is called that because these countries are the result of Latin-language peoples (Spaniards, Italians, Portugese) imposing their cultures across the Atlantic.

I don't know if seafaring Europeans introduced "cooking" raw fish with vinegar or limes to native peoples. Maybe somebody does. It makes sense to me that, at a minimum, people on very long sea voyages eat raw fish. But I do know that the Arabic, Italian and Spanish words for traditional vinegar-preserved fish dishes sound like "ceviche" and these dishes pre-date 1492. It would also make sense that if Europeans arrived in the new world and discovered the locals eating raw fish "cooked" in citrus juices, the Europeans would recognize the preparation and say -- as you did -- "Oh, so you eat ceviche too!" (Or eschebe, or scapace....)

There are some foods and preparations indigenous to the Americas that were brought back to Europe and incorporated into European cuisine (especially Italian) for the first time and created new dishes. But ceviche isn't one of them. It was already in Italy. And it is certainly not the case that crudo di pesce is an Italian attempt to mimic sushi. In the parts of Italy where raw fish has never been a local dish, today's Italians are perhaps more open to eating crudo di pesce because sushi has gone global. But that's like Americans today being more open to tracking down heirloom foods and American recipes in their own back yard because Italy's Slow Food movement has enjoyed global acceptance. It's not like these things didn't exist before in America.

I eat crudo all the time in the US (including raw shrimp).

I go to my fish market -- I wouldn't use supermarket fish -- and ask for sushi grade tuna, hake, halibut, whatever he has in that quality. I drizzle it with extra virgin olive oil, add a grind of pepper,and a tiny squeeze of lemon. I have been doing this ever since I saw an article in the Sunday (NY) Times about crudo in NY. It is delicious.

If you eat other raw shellfish -- oysters, clams, scallops, then why not shrimp?

I traveled along the Italian coast from Calabria to Naples last fall and I saw crudi on the menus of many restaurants. None of these restaurants were oriented toward tourists.

At Acquapazza in Cetara, we began our meal with a platter of crudi that included not just different varieties of raw shrimp and oysters, but raw sea urchin, mullet and tuna.

http://www.acquapazza.it/


<Crudo di Pesce..an artfully arrayed platter of raw selections that included trigle (mullet), beautifully carved leaving the head and tail intact and the torso bared; my beloved ricci di mare (sea urchins); two types of shrimp; a generous mound of tuna tartare;
Oysters; anchovies; and a few other impeccably fresh selections. (30e)>

For what its worth, escabeshe and scapace generally refers to foods that are pickled -- marinated for a long time in an acid -- then cooked before serving. Not the same as ceviche, which is marinated but does not come near a flame. Not the same as crudo, which may be dressed with citrus and oil just before serving, but not marinated long enough to change the flesh.

I have tasted my share of eschebeshe, and ceviche, and seafood crudo, and sushi, but never saw ceviche in Europe, and never before found really-raw shrimp on the menu anywhere (except possibly in a sushi restaurant).

Zeppole, the article about eating raw fish in Puglia says that it is not commonly found in most of Italy, but rather is regional dish. And it doesn't mention shrimp.

As I mentioned in my post above, I saw raw shrimp quite a few times on menus along the coast. And I've also seen it on menus in Puglian seaside restaurants. LIke this one:


http://www.pescheria2mari.it/

And I had it at Il Ridotto in Venice last year.

capxxx

Every year in Gallipoli there is festival that celebrates raw and fried fish, and one of the specialites of the feast is raw red shrimp. Puglia is part of Italy, and crudo di pesce, including raw shrimp where safe, is traditionally Italian

Also, *you* were the one who said you were offered "ceviche" in Bologna. I told you that you weren't. But I showed you recipes for different kinds of raw shrimp preparations in Italy. Italians don't think of them as recipes for "ceviche." They think of them as recipes for crudo di pesce -- because? That's what they are.

I am aware of the differences between "ceviches" and other vinegared fish preparations, but they actually all come from the same root word for vinegar in Arabic (or it may be Farsi). The term is something like "sikbaj" (I don't have an Arabic keyboard) which I think translates as "vinegar bath". I think the herring "kipper" may be that too, and "aspic." (A dish which evolved further.) But the arab terms refers to a preservative for both fish and for meat.

In Liguria, cooked anchoves are sometimes later preserved in vinegar so you can leave them unrefrigerated. Likewise octopus.

Original Spanish dictionary definitions of escabeche omitted any mentioning of cooking, and focused on the vinegar. Earlier terms for "ceveche" in the New World were "sebeche",,,,

Yada, yada.

Like I said, it is not clear to me whether using vinegar and acids was brought to the New World or whether the Europeans discovered a similar dish. But the word "ceviche" I am pretty sure is a European word, not a word imported into European languages.


I can only add to people that Italy is a large place and Europe is an even larger one. I frequently encounter on Fodor's the remark "I never saw that in my travels in Europe" as an assertion something either doesn't exist or must be some very odd exception to the norm. But even if one has made repeat trips to Europe, one has only seen an extremely small sliver of Europe. I live in Italy and everytime I go out of my neighborhood I encounter new foods that are thousands of years old.

capxxx,

Ekscrunchy and I were posting at the same time.

Just to echo what eks is trying to tell you and to repeat what I said earlier:

Regional coastal dishes are now commonly found on many restaurant menus throughout Italy and their are many restaurants in Italy outside of Puglia that have Pugliese chefs. (Scacco Matto in Bologna is one.) The regional origins of these dishes don't make them any less Italian or any less popular on Roman or Milanese or Bolognese menus.

One of the recipes I gave you above is from a restaurant in the Amalfi. Another poster talked about a diner some years ago getting bad crudo in Rome. Crudo is very popular not only around Genova, but also around Trieste and even inland in the Friuli-Venezia-Giulia region. There are restaurants serving crudo di pesce in Milan. (I'm just listing what I can think of, and thank you eks for reminding me of Venice).

It only occurs to me now that I should add to this thread for anybody who digs it up that unless you are sure of the source of raw fish or raw seafood in Italy, you shouldn't eat it. And if you do seek it out from a quality restaurant, expect to pay what some will think are "outrageous prices" for safe, quality raw seafoods. (High prices are the norm for quality, unfrozen seafoods anywhere in Italy, even cooked. This is not a cheap item to bring to the table if you care about freshness.)

capxxx, here's a 2004 Travel + Leisure article recommending a raw shrimp dish in Venice

http://www.travelandleisure.com/articles/salute-to-venice

(again, without an updated recommendation from a knowledgeable source, don't eat raw seafoods in Venice)

In our experience it's fairly rare to see completely raw fish and shellfish on offer in most parts of Italy, whereas - for instance - in the resorts along France's Atlantic coast it's a popular delicacy, readily available and didn't use to be so very expensive....

But perhaps that reflects differences between the Mediterranean and the open ocean?

One place where we did find a wide choice, of varieties and restaurants serving them, was indeed down in Puglia, at Trani - where the boats sell their catch at the harbourside each evening, all but within reach of diners' tables...

http://www.pbase.com/isolaverde/image/117705621

http://www.pbase.com/isolaverde/image/117705624

Worth noting though that even there the shellfish are first taken to rest, and purge, in special cleaning tanks, before they're brought back to be consumed.... as some of the town's restaurants make good care to mention!

But it does appear that some of the locals still have a few reservations - with this session ("Raw Fish - Can You Trust It?") having been held in their hospital's conference room only a few months ago!

http://www.bipress.tv/trani/attualita-e-lavoro/item/1179-trani-pesce-crudo-ci-si-pu%C3%B2-fidare?-seminario-informativo-della-asl-bt

Peter

I've had raw sea urchins in Paris and Cassis. Raw crustaceans in the Camargue.

I think we saw raw fish on more menus than not during the 17 days spent driving up the coast from Calabria to Campania.


For example, here is the menu from a well regarded and fairly traditional SlowFood restaurant in Pisciotta:

http://www.ristoranteangiolina.it/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/menu-principale.pdf

And look at the first photo on the website of another rstaurant we liked, in Castellabate:

http://www.ristoranteiduefratelli.net/

Interesting! Of those you ordered, which would recommend?

Peter