Q about bull fights ...
Dec 27th, 2004, 06:14 PM
#1
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Q about bull fights ...
Have read a good number of the threads about this subject. My wife and I are going to Madrid and possibly Barcelona in May and my wife was interested in seeing a bull fight.
The both of us had been under the impression that the bulls were not killed. Obviously this is not the case at least at Ventas in Madrid.
Is there any bullfighting in Madrid or Barcelona or a city close to Madrid that may have bullfights without the actual killing of the bull??
Appreciate the feedback and interest in our question on the forum.
The both of us had been under the impression that the bulls were not killed. Obviously this is not the case at least at Ventas in Madrid.
Is there any bullfighting in Madrid or Barcelona or a city close to Madrid that may have bullfights without the actual killing of the bull??
Appreciate the feedback and interest in our question on the forum.
Dec 27th, 2004, 06:24 PM
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Well, not "close to Madrid" by a considerable stretch - - but search for any of my previous threads on bullfights and Lisbon. Not only do they NOT kill the bull, they never break the skin. The bullfight ends when the toreador (not MATAdor - - from the verb MATAR, to kill) literally immobilizes the bull with his bare hands, one on each horn, face to face - - with an inrushing throng of assistants, three on each side of the bull's neck.
It's all about the pageantry - - and horsemanship - - in the preliminary "rounds", which tire the bull down.
Be prepared for an onslaught of protest posts which will tell you how barbaric bullfighting in Spain is.
Best wishes,
Rex
It's all about the pageantry - - and horsemanship - - in the preliminary "rounds", which tire the bull down.
Be prepared for an onslaught of protest posts which will tell you how barbaric bullfighting in Spain is.
Best wishes,
Rex
Dec 28th, 2004, 03:42 AM
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Thx for the comeback.
Good to hear from you, Rex. You have been a big help in several past travels.
My wife is getting pretty squirmish about seeing a bullfight so we may be passing on this. And I don't think we will be heading to Lisbon during this trip. It's a quick one.
Thx so much for your interest.
Good to hear from you, Rex. You have been a big help in several past travels.
My wife is getting pretty squirmish about seeing a bullfight so we may be passing on this. And I don't think we will be heading to Lisbon during this trip. It's a quick one.
Thx so much for your interest.
Dec 28th, 2004, 07:08 AM
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If it's a Corrida de Toros the bull is killed. That's also the case for a Novillada (2-year-old bulls). May in Madrid is San Isidro and you may find daily Corridas in las Ventas in which some of Spain's best Matadores Torean.
Sometimes, small villages have their own fiestas: maybe one Novillada and several "bullfights" in the village square in which mainly children torean with a cow or a calf. Those animals are not killed.
It may be difficult to find the latter unless you have a friend or relative who can direct you.
Sometimes, small villages have their own fiestas: maybe one Novillada and several "bullfights" in the village square in which mainly children torean with a cow or a calf. Those animals are not killed.
It may be difficult to find the latter unless you have a friend or relative who can direct you.
Dec 28th, 2004, 07:08 AM
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I saw a bullfight at Las Ventas in Madrid last May. I'm glad I did it to experience a part of Spanish culture, but watching the final act - the kill - was pretty difficult. I was with 3 other people - the two women bolted after the second round - and we could only take two more than that.
Dec 28th, 2004, 07:40 AM
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a few notes on Portuguese bull fights:
1. of course the bull's skin is broken and blood is shed
2. the horse rider is the cavaleiro (from cavalo=horse) and represents the nobility. All of them use 18th century cloths, including triangle shaped hats. The best cavaleiros bullfight with the hats on.
3. the aim of the cavaleiro is to hold 6 irons in the animal skin, the shorter are the irons, the more skilled is the cavaleiro, because it's necessary to arrive closer to the animal. The better cavaleiros make 7 or 8 inches irons to remain in the bull's skin.
4. the forcados represent the common people (see http://alcacova.com/imagens/tourada2.jlg). Notice the word forcados have the same root as fork, because during cerimonials, forcados hold a wooden stick with a 2 tooth metal fork on the top.
5. the forcado in the front of the row (the one with the green hat) holds the bull not with the hands (as did the Portuguese stunt Nuno Salvacao Barreto in the movie Quo Vadis) but with his arms around the animals neck and the chest over it's head, while waiting for the arrival of his suicidal squad.
6. during the last century the main center of horse riding bull fight was Campo Pequeno horse ring in the center of Lisbon, but it has gone into deep refurbishing works during the last years, I don't know when it opens again. But there are other rings.
7. There are Corrida de Gala Antiga Portuguesa, with all the cerimonials, Corrida Antiga Portuguesa similar but with a light version of cerimonials and Corrida Mista (half Portuguese style and half Spanish style, with a simulation of the killing in the Spanish style half).
8. The cavaleiros are the only professionals, because the training of hourses is a full time activity. Forcados risk their skin just for fun.
9. There are many tourist traps during the summer (specially in the Algarve). I recommend anybody to take advise with a local if some of the main artists are present in a particular bull fight.
10. Good news for the ladies (and for men): some of the most sucessful horse bull fighters of new generation are nice young ladies.
11. The horses shining in the rings are all pure Lusitanian horses (of course).
12. The names Toreador and Matador are stange to Portuguese bull fight tradition.
1. of course the bull's skin is broken and blood is shed
2. the horse rider is the cavaleiro (from cavalo=horse) and represents the nobility. All of them use 18th century cloths, including triangle shaped hats. The best cavaleiros bullfight with the hats on.
3. the aim of the cavaleiro is to hold 6 irons in the animal skin, the shorter are the irons, the more skilled is the cavaleiro, because it's necessary to arrive closer to the animal. The better cavaleiros make 7 or 8 inches irons to remain in the bull's skin.
4. the forcados represent the common people (see http://alcacova.com/imagens/tourada2.jlg). Notice the word forcados have the same root as fork, because during cerimonials, forcados hold a wooden stick with a 2 tooth metal fork on the top.
5. the forcado in the front of the row (the one with the green hat) holds the bull not with the hands (as did the Portuguese stunt Nuno Salvacao Barreto in the movie Quo Vadis) but with his arms around the animals neck and the chest over it's head, while waiting for the arrival of his suicidal squad.
6. during the last century the main center of horse riding bull fight was Campo Pequeno horse ring in the center of Lisbon, but it has gone into deep refurbishing works during the last years, I don't know when it opens again. But there are other rings.
7. There are Corrida de Gala Antiga Portuguesa, with all the cerimonials, Corrida Antiga Portuguesa similar but with a light version of cerimonials and Corrida Mista (half Portuguese style and half Spanish style, with a simulation of the killing in the Spanish style half).
8. The cavaleiros are the only professionals, because the training of hourses is a full time activity. Forcados risk their skin just for fun.
9. There are many tourist traps during the summer (specially in the Algarve). I recommend anybody to take advise with a local if some of the main artists are present in a particular bull fight.
10. Good news for the ladies (and for men): some of the most sucessful horse bull fighters of new generation are nice young ladies.
11. The horses shining in the rings are all pure Lusitanian horses (of course).
12. The names Toreador and Matador are stange to Portuguese bull fight tradition.
Dec 28th, 2004, 07:43 AM
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sorry, the link was mispelled:
http://alcacova.com/imagens/tourada2.jpg
see also:
http://alcacova.com/imagens/tourada1.jpg
http://alcacova.com/imagens/tourada2.jpg
see also:
http://alcacova.com/imagens/tourada1.jpg
Dec 28th, 2004, 08:04 AM
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Didn't see a bullfight in Spain, but did see one in Mexico. I know that the one I went to (in Cancun, which is frequented by quite a few tourists), there was a pamphlet given out warning tourists that the bulls are killed, there is blood, this might affect tourists in an adverse way, and if one feels the need to leave they should just leave and not make a big deal about it.
I was initially afraid. I love animals and was concerned that I would not be able to suffer through watching a bull die. Thankfully, I read through the entire program prior to the beginning of the fight in which a lot of things were explained. For me, I got caught up in the pagentry and beauty of motion between matador and bull. It's not something I think I would seek out again, but I did enjoy the one I went to. I even got to meet the matadors after the fight.
Bullfighting does have an element of the barbaric and almost all Americans feel it is gross and unnecessary. (Sorta like how I feel about boxing, but hey, we all have things we don't like but our culture condones) What sort of turned me around is the idea that the idea is to kill the bull quickly. Any prolonging of hurt brings about "boos" from the audience (it weakens the animal), and if the initial strike doesn't kill, the matador quickly uses a daggar which does kill instantly. (At a loss of judging points) On top of this, the meat from the bull was given to the poorer families - at least this was true in Cancun when I was there a few decades ago.
If this is something your wife is really squeamish about, skip it. It will only upset her and it is far too expensive to go and leave. I enjoyed myself, surprisingly. But the one thing that did totally gross me out was after a good, clean kill the matador was "awarded" one of the bull's ears, which he handed to one of the women sitting in the front. THAT really turned my stomach. (And hers as well, I believe!)
I was initially afraid. I love animals and was concerned that I would not be able to suffer through watching a bull die. Thankfully, I read through the entire program prior to the beginning of the fight in which a lot of things were explained. For me, I got caught up in the pagentry and beauty of motion between matador and bull. It's not something I think I would seek out again, but I did enjoy the one I went to. I even got to meet the matadors after the fight.
Bullfighting does have an element of the barbaric and almost all Americans feel it is gross and unnecessary. (Sorta like how I feel about boxing, but hey, we all have things we don't like but our culture condones) What sort of turned me around is the idea that the idea is to kill the bull quickly. Any prolonging of hurt brings about "boos" from the audience (it weakens the animal), and if the initial strike doesn't kill, the matador quickly uses a daggar which does kill instantly. (At a loss of judging points) On top of this, the meat from the bull was given to the poorer families - at least this was true in Cancun when I was there a few decades ago.
If this is something your wife is really squeamish about, skip it. It will only upset her and it is far too expensive to go and leave. I enjoyed myself, surprisingly. But the one thing that did totally gross me out was after a good, clean kill the matador was "awarded" one of the bull's ears, which he handed to one of the women sitting in the front. THAT really turned my stomach. (And hers as well, I believe!)
Dec 28th, 2004, 09:39 AM
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Chele60 -
The only difference between prize fighting and bull fights is that the fighters are fully adult humans - making their own choices based on their own parameters (as odd as I find it). The bulls are innocent animals being torutured for no known purpose - other than to gratify the blood lust of the crowd.
For any one who is amused by this - go right ahead - but perhaps they might consider consulting a therapist first.
The only difference between prize fighting and bull fights is that the fighters are fully adult humans - making their own choices based on their own parameters (as odd as I find it). The bulls are innocent animals being torutured for no known purpose - other than to gratify the blood lust of the crowd.
For any one who is amused by this - go right ahead - but perhaps they might consider consulting a therapist first.
Dec 28th, 2004, 10:06 AM
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Nytraveler, I can understand your strong feelings but disagree that it's all about the bloodlust of the audience. As macabre as it seems, there is a certain amount of art to it. I don't think I'll EVER go to another, but I suppose I can understand its popularity in Spain.
Plus, as someone who eats meat, it would be quite hypocritical of me to be very judgmental about it.
Plus, as someone who eats meat, it would be quite hypocritical of me to be very judgmental about it.
Dec 28th, 2004, 10:09 AM
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Thank you, lobo_mau for a more complete explanation - - off, I feel like I didnt see any of this! I was just astonished at the end of the bullfight, when the cavaleiro (but is this the person foot? maybe I am still confused) grabs the bull by its two horns. I got some very limited explanation from some Portuguese sitting near me, so my grasp of all I saw is/was not nearly as thorough as your explanatory info.
Dec 28th, 2004, 10:16 AM
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happywanderer, The previous replies about the "No kill" in Portugal are correct. We went to a bull fight outside of Lisbon which was very entertaining. The colorful pagentry, horsemanship, male bull wrestlers, etc. was wonderful. After the fight, oxen were brought into the ring to calm the bull down so he could be led out of the ring. We were told the bull was then butched and the meat given to the poor. I think it was delivered to my hotel.
The most gore I have seen was in Peru at a cock fight. After they tie the razors to the cock's legs it becomes a bloody mess. The wings are mostly cut off, the crops cut open, the heads and necks slashed by the razors etc.
In Spain, I refused to go to a bull fight and will never again go to a cock fight. My wife loved both the bull and cock fighting, but what else would you expect from a nurse!
Jin N
The most gore I have seen was in Peru at a cock fight. After they tie the razors to the cock's legs it becomes a bloody mess. The wings are mostly cut off, the crops cut open, the heads and necks slashed by the razors etc.
In Spain, I refused to go to a bull fight and will never again go to a cock fight. My wife loved both the bull and cock fighting, but what else would you expect from a nurse!
Jin N
Dec 28th, 2004, 11:28 AM
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I can understand your interest completely given that bullfighting is an integral part of the culture of both Spain and Portugal. But would you go to a dog fight or a cock fight...perhaps what makes bullfighting different is that the bulls seem more "majestic."
Dec 29th, 2004, 02:03 AM
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This is about Spain, specifically Madrid:
The story about the meat of Sunday's Corridas being given to the poor is mostly fable. At Madrid's Ventas Bull ring there's a meat market under the stands at ground level where the meat is sold.
My wife used to go there Monday morning to buy cuts of beef from Sunday's Corridas. I preferred the beef from Novillos (2-year old bulls). It wasn't quite as tough as that from 4-year old bulls.
The story about the meat of Sunday's Corridas being given to the poor is mostly fable. At Madrid's Ventas Bull ring there's a meat market under the stands at ground level where the meat is sold.
My wife used to go there Monday morning to buy cuts of beef from Sunday's Corridas. I preferred the beef from Novillos (2-year old bulls). It wasn't quite as tough as that from 4-year old bulls.
