indiancouple

We will be in Rome for 4 days, at the end of our 16 day Italy tour (first 12 days we will cover Venice, Florence, Naples & Amalfi Coast). We are not very heavily into art or churches (as we are not Christians), but certainly not averse to them either. In Rome, we will be staying at a B&B very close to St Peter's Square. We will be in Rome from Wed, May 15th to Sat, May 18th.
Wed, May 15th : Will probably have a late start by noon or so, as we will arrive by train in the morning. Plan to cover Plaza Navona, some interesting shopping streets nearby like Via dei Coronari and Via del Governo Vecchio, lunch somewhere near Plaza Navona, before proceeding to Pantheon, then Campo de' Fiori, enter Palazzo Spada (is it worth it ?), before having dinner at Trastevere. May just stroll around Trastevere if we are not too tired.

Thu, May 16 : Start with Colosseum in the morning, followed by Palatine Hills. Go back to our hotel to have lunch somewhere and a short rest, before returning to Roman Forum, Plaza Campidoglio (but not the Capitoline Museums), II Vittoriano, before returning to Campo de'Fiori for a drink and dinner.

Fri, May 17 : Visit St Peters Square, enter St Peters Basilica, go to the top of the Dome, visit Vatican Grottoes in morning. Lunch and some rest at hotel. Return in the afternoon for the Vatican Museums, followed by Castel Sant'Angelo. Dinner somewhere near our hotel.

Sat, May 18 : Plaza Popolo, Plaza Spagna and the Spanish Steps, some shopping nearby and lunch. Then to Plaza Barberini, Trevi Fountain, and the Time Elevator cinema for a show on Roman history (worth it ?), finishing with a drink at Monti district and dinner somewhere.

Please let us know if our itinerary sounds sensible, or if we have too much or too little on some days. We have left out many famous art galleries, as we would have had a lot of it at Florence before, some more at Naples, and of course we will see the Vatican Museums. Similarly, we would have visited 25 famous churches by then in Italy (Venice, Florence, Naples, and of course St Peters in Rome).

We also need advice on how much crowds to expect in mid-May at Colosseum and the Vatican. For the sights that we propose, the Roma Pass does not make sense, unless it is a must to avoid Colosseum queues (are the lines long early morning ?). Similarly, how much queue time should we budget for at Vatican (St Peters church in morning, Vatican Museum at about 2 pm) ? We like to avoid conducted tours, and are more comfortable on our own, with audio guides.

Your help and guidance will be highly appreciated.

kybourbon

Where is your hotel?

The Time Elevator is between Piazza Venezia and near the Campo area. I think I would try to fit it in then. I would visit the Forum earlier in the day (morning) in the hopes it would be cooler (not much shade).

>>>We also need advice on how much crowds to expect in mid-May at Colosseum and the Vatican<<<

Rome is busy year round just like any major city. The coldest winter months see a few less tourists at the sites, but expect May to be busy.

>>>For the sights that we propose, the Roma Pass does not make sense, unless it is a must to avoid Colosseum queues (are the lines long early morning ?)<<<

Depending on where your hotel is, the value might be in the transport pass. You seem to want to trek back and forth to your hotel during the day (don't think you will actually do this unless you stay more central as it will eat up a lot of time) so you might use the transport a lot.

>>>Similarly, how much queue time should we budget for at Vatican (St Peters church in morning, Vatican Museum at about 2 pm) ? We like to avoid conducted tours, and are more comfortable on our own, with audio guides.<<<

You can book entrance to the museum on their website so you don't have to wait in line.
http://mv.vatican.va/3_EN/pages/MV_Home.html

I would visit the Vatican Museums on your arrival day. I think mid-week and afternoons are less crowded and Friday/Saturday/Monday have the most crowds (seems most tour companies either start or end in Rome for flight purposes).

nytraveler

Not sure why you keep going back to hotel during the day - wasting a lot of time. You should be lunching wherever you are - and if you want to go back to the hotel before dinner to relax/freshen up -that makes sense.

You're there in May, which will be warm and quite crowded but not the worst mobs of summer - but you should still look into advance tickets for Scavi and whatever else you need tickets for to avoid wasting time standing in long lines.

For an interesting church look at San Clemente. You can climb from the current church down through several previous levels to the original Roman Temple of Mithras (god of the soldiers)in the multiple sub - basements. It gives a very intresting picture of the past 2,000 years.

Also, if you're not familiar with Roman, Italian or Christian history suggest you do some reading - or at least take a basic tour so you know what you are looking at - in the Forum for instance.

(I have been there and seen a woman pull her family away in a huff when the guide started talking about the Temple of the Vestal Virgins - since she thought it was something pornographic. Also interesting to see how much the Romans had (apartment houses, indoor plumbing, a whole series of public baths) that europe then lost most of for the following 1200 years.

goldenautumn

Hi indiancouple.,

I'm not Christian either, and I agree that your sightseeing schedule before arriving in Rome means that you will have seen many Roman ruins and much Renaissance art, and that while I'm sure you don't want to miss anything worthwhile, I would suggest you approach Rome a bit differently.

First of all, since your b&b is very close St Peter's, I suggest you go into St Peter's Basilica (just the Basilica) the first day you arrive, even though you are arriving late. If after seeing the art work in St Peter's you really can't wait to also go to the Vatican museums, by all means go some other day (I think they are leatst crowded after 2pm). But you might feel seeing St Peter's in itself is fully satisfying.

I hear you that you don't like tour groups, but there are unusual aspects of Rome that are best accessed with the help of someone who knows the city. There are food tours and wine tastings you might enjoy than another church. There is a very long tradition of open markets and cooking in Rome that is a fascinating part of its history. I can recommend Vinoroma in Rome for wine tastings (you can find the website on Google), and Elizabeth Minchilli for food tours. Even if you have dietary restrictions, you can find a suitable half day. The woman who runs this tour is a vegan, and she would be happy I am sure to tailor a tour to suit your needs.

http://antiquatours.com/our-wine-tours-2/

You can rent a bicycle to take a trip along the Appian way. You can find modern art galleries along the via Margutta. There are medical museums in Rome if you are a doctor. There are walks you can find on the internet that trace all the Egyptian artifacts in Rome (lots of obelisks!)

http://www.romeartlover.it/Obelisks.html

Likewise you can focus on mosaics (the church of Santa Maria in Trastevere is unusual)

http://www.romeartlover.it/Mosaic.html

Your itinerary is certainly sensible, but I just wanted to point out that you needn't feel obliged to follow in the footsteps of lots of other tourists and the guidebooks that cater to their interests. Today's Rome is multicultural, and just seeing how today's Romans live in their beautiful old city -- going to sports events, shopping, hanging out in piazzas that are cheaper than the famous tourist ones -- can really be very interesting.

The fountains of Rome are unique to Rome, so if the weather is nice, make a point of seeing a few, even the ones less famous than the Trevi and those in the piazza Navona.

goldenautumn

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Roman_relations

denisea

I was raised in Christianity but am not a religious person of any type, but I still appreciate the architecture of the great places of worship. Some of the great sculptures are in churches in Rome.totally agree with goldenautumn about Santa Maria in Trastavere and the gorgeous mosaics.

I agree with the above regarding returning to your hotel during the day. Get lunch out but I wouldn't waste time returning to the hotel during the day.

I also agree with VinoRoma snd food tour with Elzabeth Minchilli...we did both while in Rome a few months ago and enjoyed them both immensely.

indiancouple

Thanks for the excellent responses. To clarify, we are booked at the B&B Nicolo III a San Pietro, which is located a 2 min walk from San Pietro train station, and a 5 min walk from St Peter's square. I am told it is 15 min by bus from Colosseum.

I have only proposed going back to hotel for some afternoon rest on two days : Day 2 & Day 3. On Day 2, we would have spent the morning doing the Colosseum and the Palatine Hills, which I suppose involves a fair amount of walking around. Also, I notice that there are not many places to eat lunch there. So I was thinking of returning to the B&B to grab lunch and some rest, and returning to the Roman Forum in late afternoon, where it gets cooler. If it is not too tiring, we could go on and finish Roman Forum, Campidoglio Plaza, Vittoriano II etc all in one go along with Colosseum and Palatine, provided we can find some place nearby for lunch.

On Day 3, when we propose to be at the Vatican, we are but a 5 min walk from our B&B,so returning for an afternoon rest is not time consuming. Just wanted to hit the Vatican Museums after 2 pm, when I believe they get less crowded.

kybourbon, have noted your suggestions. Will definitely book online for the Vatican Museum tickets. Does doing that avoid lines altogether ? That is a pleasant surprise. What about Colosseum ? If we hit it at 9am in morning in May, what kind of queues to expect ?

nytraveler, we do read up a lot on the sites we visit in advance. I have a Lonely Planet guidebook, which I supplement with a lot of other reading on the net. Have noted your suggestion about the San Clemente church. And I do know enough about the Vestal Virgins already !

goldenautumn, I would not want to miss the Vatican Museums at all, even with the overdose of art that we would have received in Italy. The Sistine Chapel is legendary, and so are the Raphael Rooms. Would definitely want to have seen them, along with some other art treasures of the Vatican Museums. I had noted down the Santa Maria church in Trastevere, as it is in the heart of the Trastevere area. With your recommendation, we will certainly go inside it. Will also research the food and wine tasting tours. These seem more like things that we will enjoy. I like your suggestions of veering off the beaten track to explore more lesser known plazas and fountains. Could you recommend some ?

denisea, you have endorsed the views of goldenautumn, so that makes 2 votes for the Santa maria Chuch in Trastevere, and the food tour. Will do both !

indiancouple

kybourbon, I checked the maps in the LP guidebook, which show the Time Elevator to be about 150 mtr south of Trevi Fountain, which is why I had clubbed it after visiting Trevi. Is the location incorrect ?

What you feel about Palazzo Spada ? Are the optical illusions inside worthwhile to see ?

mocha_dolce

I would suggest that you play it by ear as far as when you need an afternoon break, probably holding off until the pre-dinner time would be best. If your B&B is right around the corner from the Vatican, that probably makes sense. (Though it sounds like someplace in the Centro Storico might serve you better than being in the heart of Catholic Rome.) Taking the subway down to the Colosseo is a bit more of an ordeal (& requires minding your valuables). You will definitely want to rest your feet, but a leisurely lunch might do rather than trekking back and forth to your room. Churches can be cool sanctuaries in which to rest too.

The Time Elevator was disappointing (this from someone who normally enjoys attractions like that). A cool, dark, expensive place to relax. Go to someplace like San Clemente and you'll discover a genuine time elevator as you explore its depths.

"Christian" Rome is an important part of its appeal, though perhaps the art and historical aspects will be of more interest to non-Christians.

The American priests at Santa Susanna provide lots of good advice for visitors (dining, FAQS, etc) here:
http://www.santasusanna.org/visitorI...sitorInfo.html

maxima

You can no longer pay for tickets to the Vatican's Sistine Chapel and Museums using a credit card, or bank debit card. You will need to check if you can still make reservations for tickets online or not. If you cannot, you will have to purchase your tickets at the Vatican, and bring cash. The
reason for no credit cards has to do with issues pertaining to the Vatican banking system, and no tourist credit or debit cards.

There is a self-service cafeteria in the Vatican museum. If you are so inclined, you can visit St. Peters, and then the Sistine Chapel and Raphael rooms, take a lunch break at the cafeteria and then tour the museums. You cannot leave the museum and re-enter but you can go to the cafe, and sit down and rest, and have something to eat.

The whole complex is huge and there is quite a lot of walking so don't under estimate the time it may take see the things you would like to see.

kybourbon

FYI - I added some info about the Artecard to your other thread.

>>Vatican Museum tickets. Does doing that avoid lines altogether ? <<<

It avoids the long ticket line, but everyone still goes through a security line.

>>>What about Colosseum ? If we hit it at 9am in morning in May, what kind of queues to expect ?<<<

If you don't want the Roma Pass, you can buy an entrance ticket online to avoid the long ticket lines (there is a separate entry area/line for this). A 12€ ticket includes the Colosseum, Forum and Palantine and is good for 2 days (one entry into each area).

>>>show the Time Elevator to be about 150 mtr south of Trevi Fountain, which is why I had clubbed it after visiting Trevi. Is the location incorrect ?<<<

Possibly that close, but just as close (or closer to Piazza Venezia/Piazza Campodoglio).

http://www.romeguide.it/mostre/time_elevator/mappa1.jpg

Your B&B seems to suggest arriving using bus #64. This bus is called the Pickpocket Special. Watch your belongings if you use it.

Being near Stazione S. Pietro can be helpful, but I don't think it's included on the Roma Pass. You can catch the train there to the Trastevere train station (1€ - travel time about 5 minutes, runs about every 10 minutes). When you reach the Trastevere station (2nd stop), it's not the heart of Trastevere. You would go outside and catch tram # 8 (the tram is included on the Roma Pass or you would need a ticket 1.50€). Get off before the tram crosses the river to be close to the part of Trastevere you want. If you stay on, you can get off at the last stop (Argentina)and be close to Piazza Navona.

http://www.atac.roma.it/files/doc.asp?r=5
Note - Risorgimento S. Pietro (tram 19)listed on the tram map is not close to Stazione S. Pietro. It's on the far side of the Vatican from where you are staying.

You can also take the train from S. Pietro one stop (different train - 1€, 2 minutes) to Valle Aurelia and connect to Rome's metro line A. The metro is included on the Roma Pass. Line A has stops for the Vatican Museums (Cipro or Ottaviano both work), Piazza Popolo, Spanish Steps, Trevi Fountain. You can see the train lines and metro on this map.
http://www.atac.roma.it/files/doc.asp?r=4

Validate all of these train/tram tickets before boarding.

You might also find the electric bus 116 useful as there is a stop not too far from your B&B. Terminal Gianicolo is underground - big bus hub for Rome (between your B&B and the Vatican) or there is a stop closer to the river. The electric buses (included on the pass) go through the historic center (even some pedestrian only areas).
http://www.atac.roma.it/files/doc.asp?r=9

goldenautumn

Missing from this link is the fountain of the piazza Farnese, which is actually a tub from the Roman Baths of Caracalla, and I think worth noting.

http://ciaochowlinda.blogspot.it/201...s-of-rome.html

I don't think using the Metro is an ordeal, and it is really so convenient to your B&B for getting to the Colosseum early in the morning, or getting back for a rest if you like. Everyone is wise to warn you against pickpockets, but with a money belt, you should be fine. Don't carry anything valuable in your pockets or purse. put them in the moneybelt. Don't assume some buses or trams are "better" than others. There really are pickpockets everywhere in tourist areas -- not to alarm you, but just to clarify -- including around the Vatican, but you needn't worry if you have tucked everything away,

bendigo

If you don't purchase your Colloseum tickets on line, an alternative is to get them from the entrance to the Palatine Hill.
On our trip in December, the line at the Colloseum ws estimated at around one hour, so we walked to the Palatine Hill entrance (300 metres away), were second in line, purchased our tix, and returned to immediate entry to the Colloseum.
If you handle it, visiting the Forum after the Palatine Hill makes sense - just follow the path down. Worth buying a drink from some of the streetside vendors though!

annhig

excellent info above which i can endorse - and actually the Colosseum and Palatine are not that tiring to tour, so returning to your hotel shouldn't be necessary. as for lunch options in the area, there are vans selling panini and drinks in the area, or if you want something more substantial, if you go to google maps, search for the colosseum, and then put "restaurants" into the search box, loads will come up.

if you want to go further afield, you could do what we did and walk up towards San Pietro in Vincoli where there are streets with small "local" restaurants. there is also a cafe on top of the Capitoline hill in the museum complex, though it is not well sign-posted [Rick Steves has good instructions for finding it]. Mr. Steves also details a tour of churches with mosaics which we much enjoyed - and if you are in Trastevere, one you should not miss is St. Cecilia, which has a lovely mosaic chapel in the crypt.

talking of tours, if you are going to have a tour anywhere, have one at the forum. WE've been twice, and it's still a heap of old stones to me.

tdk320n

TTT

goldenautumn

annhg,

Have you been to Ostia Antica? It can sometimes help lend a more vivid picture of what the Forum area of Rome was in relation to the rest of the human settlement of Rome. Even though they were several centuries apart in time, if you walk through Ostia Antica, and then go back to Rome and look at the view of the Forum from the Capitoline museums, you may end up with a better understanding of how it fit into the landscape of ancient Rome, especially if you also have with you a map of Rome that shows you the baths of Caracalla, the Circus Maximus, the via Appia and the Portico d'Ottavia. It helps to know too that the original areas of human settlement were on both sides of the Tiber near the broken bridge.

If you like Rick Steves' guides, he actually has a fairly efficient walking tour of Ostia Antica.

Even if you don't go to Ostia Antica, I think it is easier to "see" the Forum if you look at it from the overlook in the Capitoline museum.

annhig

Have you been to Ostia Antica?>>

yep - and liked it a lot. I'm not sure that we had any guide at all [we probably did, i just don't recall] but i do remember that it was relatively easy to make sense of it.

but in the Forum somehow, whatever paper guide or map i have, i find it almost impossible to visualise how it would have looked. judging from what other people have posted previously, when I've stated that, I'm not alone. Also, perhaps because it used to be free, the signage at the Forum is pretty useless, whereas in the Palatine and colosseum it is excellent.

Doubtless on my next stay in Rome, in about 3 weeks time, we will be going to the forum again, so perhaps this time, I'll be able to make more sense of it.

tarquin

To answer one question, no, the Palazzo Spada is not a big deal and not worth your short time in Rome.

One of our best trips with two young sons in the summer was from fountain to fountain - there are over 2000 in Rome.

A_Brit_In_Ischia

May is actually quite a busy time in the various museums, archaeological sites etc - and Spring evidently attracts the most culturally-interested visitors?

http://www.pbase.com/isolaverde/image/140850936

Even so, it's surprising just how few places are immensely popular - and once you're done with the Pantheon, Colosseum circuit and the Vatican, the rest should seem relatively quiet...

http://www.pbase.com/isolaverde/imag...14259/original

Whilst it might have been a sensation in the mid-1600s, I didn't find the optical illusion at Palazza Spada particularly impressive - and wouldn't take the time - or pay the 5 Euro ( 1/2 price with RomaPass) - if that's all you're interested in there.

But do see here for others' thoughts:

http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attract...ome_Lazio.html

There are better trompe-l'oeil effects to be seen in some of the churches - or this delightful old fellow can be found at the Baths of Diocletian branch of the National Museum of Rome:

http://www.pbase.com/isolaverde/image/141036037

Peter

indiancouple

Wow, a huge number of replies. Since we are all in different time zones (probably), it takes time to respond !

mocha_dolce, thanks for your views on the Time Elevator, which we will cancel, since you found it disappointing. I had no reviews on that one; it just sounded interesting when I read it in a guide book.

maxima, thanks for the info about the cafeteria inside the Vatican Museums. That is welcome info, and provides us with options, in case we want to grab a bit of lunch while viewing the Vatican Museums.

kybourbon, you have been providing excellent info on both my threads. Thanks for the great info about local transportation from my B&B in Rome.

goldenautumn, thanks a lot for the wonderful link to Rome's fountains. I will add the one on Piazza Farnese to that list. This sounds more fun than many other things I had planned. And I will be careful about my belongings, after I narrowly missed having my wallet picked on a metro in Athens.

bendigo, your suggestion about how to avoid the lines for the Colosseum tickets was brilliant. In fact it is so simple, why don't more people think of the same and avoid hours in line ? You have relieved much tension about waiting for hours in line. I will just pop over and buy the Palatino tickets, and use that to enter the Colosseum, thereby avoiding the line. Smart thinking on your part.