Please help with 2nd Switzerland trip ~ Murrren, Soglio and ?

www.kandersteg.ch/english/ort/index.html Kandersteg with nearby lake Oeschinensee
www.oeschinensee.ch/kategorie/sommer_en/11/

www.gemmi.ch/e/index.html Gemmi above Kandersteg - gondolas and accommodation

www.kandersteg.ch/english/sport/w_gemmi.html Gemmipass hike to Leukerbad (one long day or two days - awesome!)

Hi wrenwood---so you've joined the club of Switzerland addicts!

DalaiLlama's suggestion of Kandersteg/Oeschinensee is a good one; we love to stay at the rustic Hotel Oeschinensee up at the lake---beautiful by day, very peaceful in the evening. Some rooms have views out to the lake, but none have ensuite bathrooms. The food is wonderful (much of it from the Wandfluh family's organic farm).

There is a nice sculpture path along the lake, but otherwise not much in the way of "easy" walks directly from the hotel---there are two trails that go up and up to alpine huts, but niether one is easy. However, it is a short walk (or horse-drawn coach ride) to the chairlift and a fun ride down to Kandersteg, where you can ride the Sunnbühl cablecar up for a nice walk toward Gemmi Pass, or take a postbus into the lovely Gasterntal and walk back.

Another place we like a lot is Bettmeralp, a car-free village perched on a bench high above the Rhone Valley, with views south into Italy and to the Matterhorn in the west:

http://www.bettmeralp.ch/e/sommer/

Level walks from the village take you to the next village in either direction (Riederalp or Fiescheralp) and you can ride any of several lifts up to the top of the ridge for glorious views of the Aletschgletscher.

Or, if you want to stay closer to the more direct path back to Zürich from Pontresina, and ride the Berninan Express again, you could change at Chur for Arth-Goldau or Luzern, and make your way to Rigi, where your balcony views will take in not only meadows and far-off mountaisns, but also the Vierwaldstättersee (aka Lake Luzern). Look around for photos of the area:

http://www.rigi.ch/en/navpage-HikeRIGI.html

You can stay on top at Rigi Kulm, but we liked Rigi Kaltbad, partway down the mountain, better:

http://www.bergsonne.ch/main-eng.html

enzian -

We're planning a trip to Kandersteg for April - would you happen to know if the gondola to Oeschinensee runs year round?

Just checked out a few of those links, and it's not looking good, bummer...

wrenwood -

Forgot to mention that we like the Hotel Alpenruh in Murren. In your face mountain views from the balconies.

melng8---unfortunately, as you discovered, the lift to Oeschinensee is not running in April. You can walk up. . . . (but I beleive the hotel/restaurant up there is alsoclosed for a bit of rest at that time).

The odd thing is that the winter website now refers to a "Gondolbahn" and translates it as "cablecar". But the summer website still shows the old chairlift (Sesselbahn) that we used, as recently as June 2007.

http://www.oeschinensee.ch/content/sommer_en/14/139/

The summer website says it starts operation on May 9.

If the Kandersteg ideas don't work, no worries, there are tons more options in Switzerland.

You emphasized alpine flowers - one of the alpine flower paradise locations is the Rochers de Naye above Montreux - www.montreux.ch/naye/.

You can stay down by the lake, Montreux or Vevey or in between, or you can stay above Montreux, there are two charming little towns on the cute train line (www.membres.lycos.fr/beuret/english/real/mtgn.htm) that goes up to Rochers de Naye: Glion and Caux.

Marvellous views across the lake from there, only a few hotels, not many, but you're down in Montreux in a jiffy - see what you think:
Glion: www.hotels-and-more.ch/en/vaud/glion
Caux: www.hotels-and-more.ch/en/vaud/caux/

Thanks enzian - any idea how long and how strenuous the walk is?

Apologies wrenwood, I didn't mean to hijack your thread.

bookmarking

I apologize to all for posting and then being "absent" ~ unexpected family concerns have kept me otherwise occupied

Late June/early July is now out for this trip, I'm hoping we can go in Sept or Oct again. So sadly, no wildflowers if we make it there this year.

I'm going to check out some of the recommendations, and Melnq8, don't apologize for "hijacking" the thread, all questions and information always welcome!

Hi wrenwood - my husband and I did our first [my second] trip to Switzerland together in April 2002. We've since done a second, and having spent a total of four weeks riding trains we've covered most train routes. [However, as Soglio isn't on a train-line we haven't been there!]

I'm not sure whether you just want a scenic route from A-B [Pontresina to Zurich] or whether you want suggestions for separate day trips. We did both these side trips in one long day from our accommodation near Tiefencastel, completing a circle through St Moritz, Klosters and Chur. I've written the following as if you just want to get up to Zurich and will have your bags with you.

The St Moritz - Chur leg of the Glacier Express route is one of the most spectacular scenic routes. Naturally, it's slow. If you go that way, and are able to check your bags at Chur there's a short [one hour] and interesting train ride up to Arosa. Although Chur was all sunshine and spring blossom, it was snowing heavily when we were there.
Another alternative trip is the train from St Moritz along the Engadine Valley to Scuol-Tarasp. This is a lovely unspoilt [unindustrialised] part of Switzerland through/past the Swiss National Park. When we were there in April they had had a late snowfall and it was magic. The village of Guarda is a particularly pleasant stop.
From Sagliains on this line there is a rail tunnel that connects this valley to Klosters - making this a much quicker but less specatacular way to head north [even if you travel out to Scuol-Tarasp first].
Whether you go via Chur or via Klosters you will go through [and possibly change trains] at Landquart en route to Zurich. Lnadquart is an industrial town, but the scenery between there and the airport is mostly mountains and lakes, and quite lovely.

Hi wrenwood once more. Your post came while I was composing mine. I had the impression you were going in April, not June-July. I must have been confused with another post. Disregard comments about heavy snow. We went back in late September - October and it was very green and beautiful. [April can be brown where snow has just thawed. We were lucky to get some extra snow to cover up the brown bits!]

Thanks SueLynne (and others!)

I'm wondering about taking a train from Zurich Airport, through Chur ( have driven that area, lovely) to Pontresina. There we would rent a car and visit Soglio, returning the car to Pontresina.

Bernina Express ( last time we took it it was cloudy, foggy) and then what about heading towards the Lakes region of Northern Italy? Is that easy to see and do without a car? I think you can ferries all over the lakes?

From the Lakes ??????????????? to where??????

If we go in Sept/Oct we can probably go for 17 days.

melnq8---I do know how strenuous the walk up to Oeschinensee is, as we did it several times.

Unfortunately, one time was with our luggage---and the family won't let me forget it!!! Usually we leave our luggage in the train station lockers and just take up what we need for a few days. . . but one time gave in to the teenage girls' inability to be separated from their luggage for 72 hours. So up we trekked---with our rollerbags. The pathway ws not at all as I had remembered it---it was steeper, and not all paved. So it was a tough haul with bags. We drew many droll comments from the hikers.

The path ascends about 1300 feet in about a mile and a half.

wrenwood---thank for your patience with the brief "hijack".

If you are looking for more things to do after your visit to the Engadine area, you could make a loop from the Italian lakes back to Switzerland on the very scenic Centovalli railway, which goes from Locarno to Domodossola:

http://www.centovalli.ch/

Domodossola is on the main north-south line into Switzerland. It is a short hop to Brig and you could continue an hour or so to Kandersteg, if a stop there appeals to you. The photos I have seen of Oeschinensee in the fall are stunning---the lake is surrounded by golden larches.

From Kandersteg it is an easy 2-1/2 hour ride back to Zürich.

Hello everyone, I'm baaack!

We are now going to England in late September for a little over 2 weeks

However..............I am begging my husband to take about a week off so we can also do Switzerland. We're both self employed so we have the "freedom" to take the time off, just have the guilt of not being available/getting things done for clients.

I'm hoping I can convince him to do this train thing for a week, he's certain that I cannot travel with just one "carryable" suitcase. I have to prove to him I can!

So, is late June or mid-late July better for wildflowers in the mountains?

Wildflowers: It depends on the elevation, but late June is better in general.

Thanks Ingo, any particular place or area come to mind for wildflowers?

wrenwood, there are so many ... did you pick any particular region of the Swiss Alps you want to visit? In general I'd say the higher the better for late June.

South facing slopes are particularly good for wildflowers. Like the one on the hike from Sils-Furtschellas via Marmore down to the Fex Valley. (Can you tell the Engadin is special to me? LOL).

Yes we loved the Engadine, the little bit we were there ( 3 days) Would never have known about it if not for you!

We based in Grindelwald last time and loved the fact that we could walk to dinner, and take trains, gondolas, cable cars to easy walks high up.

Since we are only there for about a week, I would prefer someplace with great public transport ( we're not going to rent a car this time) Maybe ONE change of locale.

We're not "hikers" we're "walkers", loved the walks around Grindelwald as they were not strenuous steep uphill walks, but you could walk forever!

So no, I haven't figured out where we want to go. I would be happy in Muerren/Wengen area again, or the Engadine, but husband wants to go someplace new.

However, the Fex Valley is SO close to Soglio where I want to go back to!!!!!

What about the Valais then? Would that be new for you? Val d'Anniviers is very beautiful and very good for wildflowers. It's rather steep, the hikes are really hikes there ...

I guess someplace new wouldn't be the Lower Engadin, eh? It is famous for the wildflowers. You could base yourselves in Scuol, Guarda, Ardez, Ftan or Sent. You can do serious hiking or just 'walking'. I highly recommend it.

I.

Wow, looking at flights now, many non-stops from IAD are booked! If we don't fly into Zurich or Geneva, wondering how we do this. Fly to Frankfurt or Munich and take the train? Milan has no non-stops from IAD. Any ideas?

Where we can fly into may determine where we go!

Wrenwood > not sure how far you are from BWI, but I'm flying USAirways out of BWI with a stop in Philly and then direct to Zurich. I purchased my ticket about a month and a half ago for $500.00 rt. Will be spending 7 days in Wengen and a couple in Luzerne before heading back to the USA.

Good luck and Happy Travels,
jdc

Thanks JDC, BWI is about 2 hrs, IAD only 45 min, so will continue to check out flights from there.

Doing this spur of the moment I don't think we'll get $500rt!

marking

It looks like the most open seats on non-stops from IAD are to Paris. So sorry Ingo, it looks like the Engadine has to wait for 2010

Arrive CDG Airport, train to Strasbourg, pick up a rental car stay over one night

OR

pick up rental car @ CDG Airport, stay in charming village somewhat closer to the airport than Strasbourg ( probably don't want to drive more than 2 hours after arriving)

Next day drive to Montreux area stay somewhere there (several ideas earlier, probably not in the city)

OR

Just train to Montreux, pick up rental car.


After Montreux area, maybe a few days near Zermatt?

ttt

I think we are going to fly into CDG, train to Zermatt or Montreux ( or one of the villages?) We'll skip Strasbourg

Are there any smaller villages to stay in near the Zermatt area that we can get to by train that would be less of a resort type of town?

We are thinking of getting a France/Switzerland rail pass. Anyone know if this gives us passage on Gondolas, cable cars, Glacier Express, or is that only with the Swiss Flexi-Pass? (Probably need to call BET)

Help me, help me, this will happen in 2-3 weeks and I've NEVER done a trip like this so spur of the moment!

Hi wrenwood,

I'm so happy you decided to use the trains -- Montreux is beginning to show the effects of too much car traffic. Thank you!!

Anyway, some villages nearby Zermatt are Bettmeralp and/or Riederalp. Both are car-free and a bit difficult to get to. You may want to look into staying in the town of Brig, which is on the main train routes and is just a lovely town (surrounded by mountains) with a castle.

For Montreux, here are links to my "reviews" (w/photos) of my favorite activities while there:

Montreux old town
http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g188108-d546444-r4080258-Montreux_Old_town-Montreux_Vaud.html

Lavaux
http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g188108-d548013-r4089520-Corniche_Lavaux-Montreux_Vaud.html

Promenade Fleuri
http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g188108-d546443-r4085751-Lakeside_Promenade_Fleuri-Montreux_Vaud.html

Morges
http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g198828-r4080228-Morges_Vaud.html

Gruyeres
http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g198820-r4082503-Gruyeres_Fribourg.html

Saanen
http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g188079-r4085665-Gstaad_Bernese_Oberland_Swiss_Alps.html

Gstaad
http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g188079-r4082703-Gstaad_Bernese_Oberland_Swiss_Alps.html

I never use a car in Montreux and instead rely on the trains, local busses, or lake ferries. It's just delightful!

I think you have to pay a small supplement for the GE with a Eurail or Swiss Pass. Usually the passes will give a discount on the cable cars but not cover them wholly (you have to find the website for each cable car to find out). The Golden Pass route from Montreux through Gstaad and through Zweisimmen to Interlaken is covered (if you want a reservation, you have to pay a small fee). You may want to research the Half Fare Card that costs 99 chf and gives you half off every train, ferry, and cable car in the country.

Doesn't seem you've gotten these sites and not sure if you know them already --

www.swisstravelsystem.com (passes)

www.rail.ch (train schedules & fares)

Have fun!

s

ps,

Sorry, forgot about Saas Fee and Saas Grund, also near Zermatt, in the next valley over. They are also car-free, and you get to them by bus.

s

The trouble with the France-Switzerland Pass is that it is only available in First Class (and therefore expensive) and it does not fully cover some of the routes, such as the Glacier Express (you pay a supplement).

You can check coverage of the various passes on the Rick Steves website:

You'll see it only covers 25% of the Zermatt to Brig and Glacier Express routes.

I you are looking for a smaller village, less touristy than Zermatt, but along the Glacier Express route, I second Swandav's suggestion of Bettmeralp:

www.bettmeralp.ch

Take a look around the website for the photos. The car-free village is perched on a bench high above the Rhone valley. You are looking south across the valley into Italy, and in the west you can see the Matterhorn (but it is pretty small). The spectacular Aletschgletscher is on the other side the the ridge that rises behind the town. You can hike up the ridge, or ride any of several lifts in the area to see it.

You reach Bettmeralp by a short cable-car ride up from the train at Betten---about 10 minutes east of Brig on the Glacier Express route.

It is much quieter and less touristy than Zermatt---more comparable to Mürren (and a bit smaller than Wengen). But we enjoy Zermatt too; we stayed at the far end of the village and tried to avoid "town" as much as possible.

Flowers should be nice in both places at the end of June. We were in Zermatt the first week of July and they were great---lots and lots of Enzian! (It did snow on us one day there).

Again, Val d'Anniviers would be my recommendation. Quite authentic, totally not the resort type feeling. Bettmeralp is IMO a bit sterile, too many small chalets built exclusively for the reason to accommodate tourists. It looks nice, the setting is beautiful but I'd say it *is* somewhat isolated with only the cable car access.

www.sierre-anniviers.ch (English available, click upper right)

Check out Grimentz or - more remote - St. Luc or Chandolin.

So...........if we don't stay in Zermatt ( husband says will be most convenient) which village has easiest access to get up to hiking trails etc.? Zermatt still looks too big and resorty to me.

I want charm, husband wants ease of access ..........and less than 2 weeks to figure this out.

And another new thread started

http://www.fodors.com/community/europe/if-we-go-to-montreux-for-1-night-best-place-to-stay-and-see-chillon.cfm

IMO the France-Switzerland Railpass is rarely a good choice for folks spending some days in Switzerland BUT the Swiss Pass by itself is often a great choice - like Enzian says many more benefits than a Eurailpass (which the France-Switzerland pass is and has identical benefits as a Eurailpass proper) - like Swiss Pass covers all transports virtually in the country - even trams and buses in cities - and trains in Interlaken area in full to Wengen and to Zermatt and all the Glacier Express route, etc.

And on anything it does not cover you get 50% (except Kleine Scheidegg to Jungfraujoch 25%) - Eurailpasses rarely get any discounts - the Swiss Pass 50% is for practically all gondolas, cable cars, etc.

Plus like Enzian points out the France-Switzerland Eurailpass comes only in 1st class - the Swiss Pass you can get in 2nd class and many find 2nd class completely fine in Switzerland.

Well we worked things out by booking to Geneva on "Economy Plus" ~ the extra cost was only a little more than if we did a high speed train from CDG to Switzerland. So yes we are going to get the Swiss Pass

Enzian ~ if you read this where did you stay at "the far end" of Zermatt?

Any other recommendations for a nice place in Zermatt that is not right in town, but still fairly convenient to trains, gondolas, cable cars?

Hi Wrenwood---I was just coming back to urge you to consider Zermatt despite the "touristy" aspects. The hiking there is wonderful---lots of lift options---and the views of the Matterhorn (when you can see it) are spectacular.

We stayed in an apartment in Winkelmatten, which is at the far end of the village. There was forest right behind our apartment, and the traisl started just up the road from us. The Klein Matterhorn lift was a short walk below. for the Gornergrat train or the Sunnegga lift, we had to walk back to the train station area. There is also the bus (electrobus) but we never used that.

Some people would consider it not well located because it is so far from the center (a 20-minute walk) but we liked the peace and quiet. And we had a full-on view of the Matterhorn from our balcony.

http://www.zermattapartmentrentals.com/new/apartments/Annabelle/

The off-season prices (until 7 July, I think) are very reasonable. And they do not require a full week then; we stayed only 3 nights. We did, however, adjust our dates to conform to their Saturday-to-Saturday schedule (i.e., we had to arrive on a Saturday).

There were a couple of hotels nearby; I'll try to find the names. Or for something even further, you could try Hotel Silvana, which you reach by the Furi lift (a 5-minute ride):

http://www.zermatt.net/silvana/e/

Which means you are stuck there in the evenings when the lift stops running, but I can think of worse places to be stuck.

You could use the search engine at www.zermatt.ch to find what is available on your dates, and then check the location. There is a map with a grid on the website. We were at C15

Zermatt itself IMO is kind of out of town - has a rural feel.

Hi again.

Thanks for all this last minute help, greatly appreciated.

Since I have no time to "research" as I usually do, I have agreed with husband we stay in Zermatt. Have sent emails to Hotel Bellavista and Schonegg. Will check out Silvana.

The apartments looked wonderful ( we stayed at an apartment in Grindelwald with relatives and LOVED it!) but this time I think we want a hotel or B&B with breakfast etc. Spring is the "busy season" in work for both of us so we are looking forward immensely to this trip. Don't need a spa, just mountains, good food and wine, and beautiful scenery!

I cannot believe we are going to Switzerland again, SO excited!

Will Zermatt be crowded the end of June?

End of June is still early season. We were there July 4 to 8 and it was fairly quiet. Lots of tourists with cameras near the Matterhorn viewpoints in town (the bridge by the church), but we met very few people on the trails. The only places I would call "crowded" were the grocery store around 5:00 pm (everyone shopping at the end of the day) and the lunch restaurant up at Gornergrat.

When we went, I cold not resist checking the webcams starting a few weeks ahead of our trip, just to see what it looked like. It's dark there now, but try tomorrow morning. You can click on various cameras on this map:

http://bergbahnen.zermatt.ch/e/web-cam/standort.html

If those hotels are booked or not suitable, try Dufour Chalet, Coeur des Alpes, and Antares. I have heard good things about all three. You have a mix of 3 and 4-star choices, so hopefully something will be just right.

And now you've got me thinking about a return trip. . .

Thanks Enzian Antares looks nice. Coeur des Alpes is the favorite on TA, it just looks too modern to me. I want to feel like I'm in Switzerland, not NYC. And I would really prefer not to pay for spas etc that we're not going to use, but it seems like all the nice places have spas!

Schonegg has some rooms available depending upon when we were there. Haven't heard from Bellevista yet.

Preliminary itinerary ~ comments and suggestions?

6/14 ~ PM flight from IAD
6/15 ~ arrive Geneva 8:00 AM, train to Zermatt, stay in Zermatt one night to walk around and "recover" from jet lag.
6/16 ~ Zermatt - St Moritz via Glacier Express ~ stay in St Moritz one night
6/17 ~ pick up rental car AM drive to Soglio, stay Soglio one night. Do some walking in Soglio ( any suggestions?)
6/18 ~ late afternoon leave Soglio return rental car stay St Moritz one night
6/19 ~ Glacier Express back to Zermatt
6/19,20,21,22 ~ stay Zermatt
6/23 afternoon train back to Geneva airport, stay Geneva airport (where?)
6/24 flight back to IAD

Unfortunetely this leaves out Montreux and Chillon, but I don't want to try to fit in too much.

Thanks for the webcam link.................but ..........um....am I going to have a construction crane in my Matterhorn pictures? (see webcam #4)

I know what you mean about the Coeur des Alpes---very modern. In the photos I have, Bellevista looks nice---very traditional and Swiss. As for the cranes---yes, they are quite a few. Be sure and ask the hotel about construction nearby when you book. That is one reason we liked being at the far end---there was no construction nearby when we were there (2007) But by now, the construction we saw then would be complete, and new construction started. So do be sure and ask.

From the webcams it looks like the weather is lovely today. Lots of snow left up at Riffelalp---hopefully that will melt quickly and leave nice walking paths for you.

curious as to why taking the Glacier Express, a marathon of 8 hours each way, twice - bouncing from Zermatt back to Zermatt

You could from St Moritz take the Bernina Express (Pass) rail route to Tirano, Italy and from there hop the Bernina Express bus to Lugano, Italy - stay there and then go via Locarno and hop another of Switzerland's neat scenic narrow-gauge trains - the Centovalli (100 valleys) to Domodossola and then hop mainline to Brig and Montreux

I guess i did not read enough in detail above to see why you want to do Zermatt twice???

IMO the Bernina Express is the most scenic train in Switzerland if not Europe - at least do it as an excursion from St Moritz and back IMO - though the Glacier Express has nice scenery none of it IMO is as awesome as the Bernina Pas train route - in about an hour from St Moritz you are on top of the world - in a land of crystal-clear Alpine lakes lying at the foot of glaciers. Many people get off at Bernina Ospiz or Alp Grum and do the easy walk around a lake to the glaciers.

I agree with Pal, doesn't really make sense to me. I think his suggestion is excellent - or what about taking the trains from Geneva aiport to St. Moritz (via Zürich, the fast ones) and recover there from jet-lag? And spend two nights in Soglio? Why would you want to rent a car to get to Soglio at all? HUH?

And you could also spend two nights in St. Moritz (please, not in the town itself, do yourself a favour and stay in one of the surrounding villages!), then spend two nights in Soglio, then take the Palm Express Postal Bus to Lugano.

I think it was Hotel La Soglina where the other Fodorite stayed in Soglio. www.lasoglina.ch
Another option (and more charming IMO) is the Stüa Granda www.stua-granda.ch

More info on the Bregaglia valley: www.bregaglia.ch/indexE.asp

I.

I.

And if you have a Swiss Railpass - and for this wide-ranging travel it makes sense i think then you still must pay a supplement of about $35 or more, not sure, to ride the Glacier Express - both ways that is $70-80 p.p. extra. At least consider Ingo's advice to blast to St Moritz first via Zurich and Chur then take the world's slowest express train back to Zermatt.

The idea in going into Zermatt to "recover" was to just chill out, look at hiking/walking maps, get an idea of what we wanted to do when we returned. I had thought about going directly to St Moritz, husband wanted to go to Zermatt first...........so............we are going to Zermatt first

We will then take the Glacier Express to St Moritz and Soglio as planned.

Why a car to Soglio? Last time we went there it was rainy and misty and cloudy, but the drive looked beautiful.( we drove there from Guarda) We would like to be able to stop, take pictures, explore the area a little more on our own. We are used to driving on our vacations (Ireland 2008 was almost 3 weeks) so by going carless ( first time Ingo!!!!! this is an adventure!) I am giving up my independent control freak ways. Love trains, not a bus person if I can avoid them. Why one night? Thought it would be enough. Maybe need to check things out more. We're not hikers, we're walkers, so figured 2 days would be enough in Soglio for this trip. I think there are several walks, short hikes nearby. The last time we went we did walk around town for 4 hours or so in the rain. The only thing I need to do in the town is to buy more Creme de Castagnea it was UNBELIEVABLE and I can't seem to find any here in the US. May have them ship a case! Will also check out the other hotels in Soglio

Had planned on staying near St Moritz because there is a Euorpcar there. No desire to be in or near the city. Should we still consider options close by and hopping a bus or taxi to Europcar?? Just want a wonderful comfy bed, Swiss atmosphere, a view and a good restaurant. Nobody mentioned Waldhaus Am See?

SO......showed my husband the Bernina Express/Tirano, Italy/Bernina Express bus to Lugano, Italy/Locarno/Domodossola route. He wasn't so sure......... and then Byron at BETS recommended the same route ( I wasn't so sure, worried about getting carsick on a bus in the Mountains, but apparently much of the bus ride is Valley) So he is convinced, and I'll try the bus ride.

And that brings up yet another question ~ Where do we stay in Lugano, or do we go on to the next similar sounding town, is it Locano?

We have been on the Bernina Express one time RT, it was very cloudy, so I'm hoping for a sunny day. When we went we met the most amazing threesome of English Ladies, had been on the Bernina Express something like 16 times! They said they saw something different each time! They were adorable, and inspiring!

Thank you again everybody for continued help and suggestions. You are all going to be so happy when we finally leave and I can't post another thread!

Once one has been to Switzerland you HAVE to go back!

OK, itinerary now looks like this

Sunday 6/14 ~ PM flight from IAD
Monday 6/15 ~ arrive Geneva 8:00 AM, train to Zermatt, stay in Zermatt one night to walk around and "recover" from jet lag, do a little research, eat and sleep.
Tuesday 6/16 ~ Zermatt to St Moritz via Glacier Express ~ stay in/near St Moritz one night
Wednesday 6/17 ~ pick up rental car AM drive to Soglio, stay Soglio one night. Do some walking in Soglio
Thursday 6/18 ~ late afternoon leave Soglio return rental car stay in/near St Moritz one night
Friday 6/19 ~ 9:13AM (I think) Bernina Express Train to Tirano, Italy, Bernina Express bus to Lugano, Italy - stay Lugano?? or ????
Saturday 6/20 ~ go to Locarno ( by bus I assume????) take the Centovalli (100 valleys) train to Domodossola, and then the mainline to Brig and Zermatt
Sat/Sun/Mon 6/20,21,22 ~ stay Zermatt
Tuesday 6/23 afternoon train back to Geneva airport, stay Geneva airport (any suggestions as to where?) ...........OR......our flight doesn't leave Geneva until noon ~ stay in Zermatt and catch an early train to Geneva airport, is this do-able?
Wednesday 6/24 flight back to IAD

What about staying in Waldhaus Sils? They offer free transport to and from the train station in St Moritz. Any other places that are similar and maybe not quite so pricey?

,

Take the train from Lugano to Locarno. See sbb.ch for a train schedule.

Try to catch the train from that uses the train and bus to get to Lugano. It's shorter. Again check sbb.ch.

Your schedule still gives me a good headache, LOL. Anyway, if that's what you want to do ...

Waldhaus Sils is a very special, great experience. If you can afford it, go for it. Staying only one night might be a problem, though. Even if other hotels don't offer that pick up service from ST. Moritz train station I wouldn't worry; the buses run frequently. And any 3star hotel in Sils would be fine for one night IMO. Privata, Randolina ...

Why don't you stay the last night in Montreux/Vevey? It would give you time to see castle Chillon which you mentioned you would like to see somewhere above. If your plane leaves only at noon then you'd have enough time to get from Vevey/Montreux to the airport.

I.

I agree with Ingo, spend your last night on Lac Leman. Short train ride to Geneva airport. Get there at least 2 hours in advance, though!

Vevey especially captured my attention as a romantic old-world town lovingly set jutting out into the lake. And with frequent trains right to the Geneva Airport to boot. Montreux is also swell but bigger and less cosy IMO

Progress

Have reservations in Zermatt at Bellevista for Monday 6/15 and Sat/Sun/Mon 6/20-22. They have offered to keep an extra suitcase of our clothes there until we come back, so we can travel lighter on the trains.

Have reservations on the Glacier Express and Bernina Express & bus. Taking the early Bernina Express so we have time to walk around Tirano and find the yummy Gelato shop we found last time!

Haven't found a place to stay in Lugano yet.

Waiting to hear back from Waldhaus Sils and Hotel Masson (for last night in Montreux) as I had some questions. Both hotels have been extremely gracious and patient with me........... as all the Fodorites have been! How's your headache Ingo?

Hotel Palazzo Salis hasn't gotten back to me a second time, I'm going to email the other two places in Soglio. Thanks Ingo. Also Chesa Randolina and Privata looked nice, but Waldhaus is even going to transport us to and from Europcar in St Moritz. We'll get a small room at Waldhaus as we won't be there but to eat and sleep. Although they said it's nice hiking and walking there also.

wrenwood- we stayed at Salis 3 years ago. I loved it. They make the best homemade pasta and we loved lunching in the big garden behind the place under the sprawling trees. Heaven. The Panoramico Trail is magnificent....even if you only walk half of it from your hotel, walk to where the guy sells fresh cheese and beer, etc. What a great stop! Here's my trip report that will link you to some of our pictures from the Glacier Express, Soglio, etc.
http://www.epinions.com/review/trvl-Dest-Europe-Switzerland/content_238856932996

Looks like we'll be in Switzerland with you ...we're leaving on the 15 and returning the 29. We are staying in several places, but prefer very quiet spots away from crowds therefore we don't stay at Zermatt. The Val D'Anniviers is so beautiful, this year we're touring the valley next door, the Val D'Herens. We stayed at Masson outside Montreux. It was lovely, but it had no A/C and was about 90 in June! Freaky year, but we burned up at night cause they didn't have any fans either.

Hi Linda, lucky us!!!!!!! I still can't believe my husband agreed to go. He loves Switzerland, but we already have a longer trip planned to England this fall, but I begged and begged and said I'd pay for it, so in the end he said OK.

I thought of staying somewhere other than Zermatt, but really just don't have the time to research at this short notice. And we really wanted someplace very easy to get in and out of as this will be our first time without a car (except for Soglio)

Salis has still to answer my most recent email. We had lunch there also when we were there for a half a day (in the rain) The most incredible Polenta dish I have ever had!

LOL from reading your trip report ~ "the spectacular white-knuckle bus trip across the Maloja Pass.... " This is another reason we're driving to Soglio!

Tell me more about the Sentiero Panoramico trail. Is it steep and hard or just long?

I keep forgetting to ask about A/C ~ I hate heat at night, can't sleep, wonder if I should have a "Plan B" for another place if the weather turns hot. At the moment through the 21st the weather looks ok.

We didn't have heat problems on our last trip, but we were in high altitudes and it was gorgeous. 70's. However, we sweltered that one year on Lac Leman! Like you, I can't sleep in hot hot weather and opening the windows did nothing (and often you hear traffic and street noise) The Sentiero Pan trail is 18k- so yes, it's very long. I think we were out 5 hours with a few breaks. There are also several waterfalls, so you need waterproof hikers. You could leave Soglio and hike part of the trail and back, you will see the old Roman roads and a gorgeous stand of chestnut trees. You won't regret the views! I hope your weather is beautiful, Soglio is the most magical place I've ever seen! NO WAY would I drive there, lol. I was paraying big time on the bus ride, but it was spectacular. Rolls Royce makes the buses, I suspect they have great brakes. Funny, as we took the bus up to Soglio there was a fellow biking there. Ouch. The bus driver passed him then turned around to us and said "IDIOT!" We all cracked up!

Where does the trail leave from, is it marked or is there a map online I can print? Old Roman Roads and Chestnut Trees and Mountains will make me happy. And there should be wildflowers blooming? How far is the guy selling fresh cheese and beer? I must be going to heaven.

I hope the weather is good also, I really don't want to go there and have it rain again!

I just heard from Salis, they quoted for a room with a canopy bed, it sounded like it was all that is left.

We are booked at Palazzo Salis, and Waldhaus Sils Maria. Happy Happy Happy.

Haven't found a good map on the internet yet of hiking trails around Soglio, anyone know where there is one?

Also booked at Bella Vista in Zermatt, things are falling into place!

Found some info on the Panoramico trail on the website Ingo recommended, but everything is going to Soglio. Where do we pick up the trail in Soglio to go find the cheese man?

Can anyone tell me about these trails?

Largest sweet chestnut plantation in Europe – covering the mountain slopes above the village of Castasegna near Soglio. Chestnut theme trail.
Via Bregaglia – the Val Bregaglia panorama trail runs high along the northern flank of the valley through romantic and almost untouched terrain from Casaccia to Soglio, in part through old sweet chestnut forests

You catch the trail at the end of Soglio village, you can't miss it!to the cheese man. You can't miss it.

http://map.wanderland.ch/?lang=en&orte=315467&layer=wanderwegnetz


You can also order a map online. If I can find mine, I'll let you have it.

Wow - Soglio - an area i was not really familiar with but now want to experience. thanks!

I meant to post this for you.
http://www.myswissalps.com/swissmaps.asp?lang=EN

I purchased my maps online for next week's trip. I do think it's cheaper to buy them there than in Switzerland! Honestly! I have a hiking map of Murren area which I'd be glad to send to you. Write me at this screen name at aol dot com and I'll get your info. Unfortunately, I still can't find my Soglio map. If you can sit tight for a couple more days, I may unearth it when I pack all my hiking gear.

oh, btw, Palenque...in all my travels, I still think Soglio may be the most beautiful place I've ever seen. Ethereal. A tiny little aged town set among massive mountains. It feels like a Brigadoon, set apart from reality at the end of the earth.

I agree, that is why I want to go back. It really stirs the heart. Just type in Soglio and do a Google Image search. Will take your breath away.

Soglio, Switzerland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Mar 23, 2009 ... Soglio is a municipality in the district of Maloja in the Swiss canton of Graubünden close to the border with Italy. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soglio,_Switzerland

The Engadine, in Southesast Switzerland
Mar 29, 2009 ... Above: Green fields, and meandering paths on the edge of Soglio village, with the Sciora Range beyond, in Switzerland. ...
www.photoseek.com/alps3.html


Soglio, Switzerland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Mar 23, 2009 ... Soglio is a municipality in the district of Maloja in the Swiss canton of Graubünden close to the border with Italy. ...en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soglio,_Switzerland

The Engadine, in Southesast Switzerland
Mar 29, 2009 ... Above: Green fields, and meandering paths on the edge of Soglio village, with the Sciora Range beyond, in Switzerland. ...
www.photoseek.com/alps3.html

OK so now i know exactly where it is and i perhaps went thru it on the Palm Express (Majola Pass Bus) from Lugano to St. Moritz - i do remember a stunningly gorgeous area just inside Switzerland.

And the photoseek.com site does have stupendous pictures. Again thanks for a new gem in Suisse for me to head to. I really have not explored this area of Suisse that much, except for having taken the Bernina Express three times.

The Palm Express runs through that valley, yes, but Soglio sits on a sunny terrace about 400 m above the valley floor. Definitely go there. It's unlike anything else you have seen in Switzerland so far.

Palenque ~ This is the fun, the value of these message boards, isn't it?

If it had not been for Ingo and others we would never have done a first ( but not the last!) exploration of the Engadine. Our stay in Guarda was magical. Snow the first day, goats on a house balcony in the village, the landscape changed constantly. The lovely gentleman that played the zither in the hotel (we bought a CD of course) his smile and gentle personality will never be forgotten.

Everyone's experiences and priorities are different, but my goodness we get good advice from this board!

Some day I promise to contribute more than I ask!

Amen, wrenwood, amen! Schuler, enzian,gruezi, swandav and countless others have helped me over the years. I love them. I did want to add that very little English is spoken is Soglio. However, they could speak French so we finally got to do some talking! The Solis has an English menu (which was a little out of date) so be sure to ask. They were SO nice there. I would also suggest that you time your trip to end around July 1st. All the Swiss told me that the European tourists and families flood Sw'land because the kiddies get out of school then. The tourists we see in June are American, Canadian, Japanese and the old Brits ( who despise British children, lol!)

I agree ~ Schuler, enzian,gruezi, swandav have also answered many questions for me. And Schuler did a great trip report for England which alerted me to visit some lovely small villages in North Devon when we are there in October.

So back to Soglio ~ Anyone heard of something called "The Chestnut Theme Trail"?


And I read this, is this just part of the Panorama Trail?

"For those who feel up to it; one hours walk above Soglio one can find the summer pastures of Tombal with views out over the mountains and the Bondesca Valley; the views are totally breathtaking"


When I made our reservation at Salis there was a receptionist who corresponded with me, she spoke some English. We don't speak German or French, but since I love to cook, I'm pretty good at deciphering a menu.

We will be back in time to avoid masses of kiddies, we come home 6/24.

We have never visited Europe this early in the year, always in the autumn. Never had a bug problem, will there be creatures biting me in June. At the Lake?

Thanks a million. I have never been to Soglio. Most Swiss have never been to Soglio. It's on my "to see" list.

Most Swiss have never been to Soglio>

Well now i do not feel so bad after doing maybe 30 trips to Switzerland of not even knowing about this gem. One thing also appealing is that i think the weather will be dependably better here than north of the Alpine spine of Switzerland - where like in Interlaken area it IME can be cool and cloudy even in summer for spells that can ruin a short trip to that area.

Has anyone eaten dinner at Hotel Masson in Montreux? Wondering if we should eat there or if there is someplace close by that would be fun.

Palenque ~ 30 trips!!!!????????????? You must live close to Switzerland!

No, do not eat at Hotel Masson. The food is mediocre. I stayed there for 3 days and everyone I talked to disliked the dinner and the limited menu. There are great places along the lake ...especially the Auberge de Rivaz. The Masson DID have a nice piano and we had fun playing and singing with other guests. It's also very close to Chillon, to the local train station and bus stop.
The chestnut patch IS along the Panoramic trail. However, the trail above Soglio which you allude to is VERY steep. We thought about doing it, but changed our minds. I don't think it can rival the Sen. Pano.

Oh, and btw...we never have had a bug problem. We saw lots of strange ground ants in the Engadin, but we never had to use bug spray. I took packets of Off towelettes. I've had them for 4 years now and have never used them in my last 4 yearly trips to Europe!

Great info on this area

Another vote against dinner at Masson. Didn't like it at all.

Linda, is Auberge de Rivaz the type of place we would need to make a reservation?

I went back through the postings briefly, couldn't find what I was looking for ~ so, question ~ once we get to Hotel Masson, are we walking to Chillon? Do I remember something about 45 minutes along the lake????? Is Auberge de Rivaz between Masson and Chillon?

Any other recommendations for dinner that night?

How long for Chillon? Do we try to get into Montreux about noon? 3:00?

Wow we leave 2 nights fom tonight ................assuming no thunderstorms on the east coast and we sit on the tarmac for hours!

oh, I'm glad i checked in! You can walk to Chillon from Masson. Or you can take the bus. About 2 minutes. Rivaz...no reservations. Simply wonderful local food, you wil LOVE LOVE it. You can take the bus or local train...probably take you 10 minutes. My "hint" for the amazing and wonderful Chillon is to get there immediately when it opens, or get there right before ir closes. Else, you will be stuffed into tourist lines and won't get the "feel" and "aura" of this absolutely amazing place. I hope you have an AWESOME trip. Switzerland is truly heaven on earth! Happy journeys!!!

Chateau Chillon is less than a mile away from the Masson. Easy to walk. I second LLindaC's suggestion to go there either early or late. I visited late - in heavy rain - and it was perfect. The rain added to the ambience of the castle. One hour time for the visit is minimum, two hours are perfect IMO.

Auberge de Rivaz is quite a distance from the Masson. It is beyond Montreux, even Vevey and St. Saphorin. You need to take the train to that small town (Rivaz). There is a small cafe/restaurant a few steps up the hill from Masson, La Pinte whatever - try this one maybe. Otherwise I recommend to go to Montreux's old town (uphill from the lake) and find a nice, charming restaurant or even caveau there. You cannot go wrong with such one.

Enjoy your trip and I trust we'll get a trip report!

Ingo

Yes I owe everyone about 3 trip reports!!! I'll try to take more notes this time since I won't be driving.

Now, everyone cross your fingers and say a little prayer or do a little dance to the travel gods. Husband's back has been acting up REALLY badly last few days, this morning we talked to United about our tickets if we had to cancel. Emailed all the Hotels to find out cancellation policies.

At the moment, things seem to be improving.......................so, I'm packing!

Just hope that I don't post on the Forum on Monday morning with a huge sad face!

Thanks again everyone for all your help and EXTREME patience

We are back, had a GREAT time, and it didn't rain in Soglio!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I promise a trip report!

Thanks again for all your help
Wrenwood

Welcome back looking forward to hearing more about Soglio - a place i know little about but now want to go to

Has anyone gone to Soglio by public transportation? Difficult?

We took the Glacier Express from Zermatt to St Moritz and stayed at Waldhaus in Sils Maria one night. They will give you a free bus pass to Soglio (and several other places) You change busses in Promontogna to one that is about a 10 min ride to Soglio ( it only goes back and forth between the 2 towns)

When we got to Soglio we walked around and then went for a hike. Took the wrong trail and ended up in Promontogna and Bondo, walked around them, very neat villages. Took tons of pictures, it was nice weather just gorgeous.

We then stayed at Palazzo Salis one night (unbelievable) hiked the next day (on the correct trail!) had a late lunch and glass of wine in the Hotel's garden. Took the bus back to Waldhaus and stayed there another night.

This was our first trip ever using busses and trains and it was amazingly easy. And we don't speak German, or French or Italian! My guess is if you get to the general area you'll have no problem.

Welcome back! We just got back last night and had perfect weather as well. Cool, but that's great for hiking! Yes, the public transportation is the best in the world and a complete moron can figure it out in seconds. That's from personal experience, lol!! It's so much more relaxing than driving...kick back, have a beer and enjoy the ride. All those big postal buses are made by Mercedes-Benz and those drivers are used to the steep grades and hairpin turns.

Welcome back wrenwood. Looking forward to your trip report.

jdc

Welcome back wrenwood. Looking forward to your trip report>

ditto