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Please help me pare my wish-list for Switzerland to fit into 25 days

Please help me pare my wish-list for Switzerland to fit into 25 days

Old Dec 18th, 2012, 09:27 PM
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kja
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Please help me pare my wish-list for Switzerland to fit into 25 days

Hi, all –

I’m in the very early stages of planning a trip to Switzerland and could really use some help, as there is WAY too much I want to see and do in what would ideally be a 3.5-week journey!

My goal is to have as diverse a range of experiences as possible, including cities and towns, different styles of art and architecture, varied natural scenery, etc. My only visit to Switzerland was more than 20 years ago, when I spent 2 nights in delightful Lucerne and much of the following day on the lovely Vierwaldstättersee. I am definitely looking forward to seeing much more.

A bit about me: I enjoy art, architecture, museums, churches, parks and gardens, natural scenery, castles, fruit and vegetable markets, picturesque villages, good food and wine, and the chance to see and experience other parts of the world. I’m a woman, will be traveling solo, and generally prefer to proceed at my own pace (rather than with a tour). I plan to use trains and buses whenever possible. I don’t mind changing hotels frequently, even every night or so. In contrast, I hate backtracking if I can avoid it. 
 I’m not seeking down time--I’m sure I’ll have enough time to relax while on train rides and over dinners. Instead, I hope to take full advantage of the time I have to see and experience things. (OK, I’m unlikely to get up at the crack of dawn every day, but will do so when necessary to see or experience something that I would otherwise miss). I’m not seeking sporting activities, with the exception of a few nice (but not particularly difficult or long) hikes.

I’d like to fly into Geneva and out of Zurich. I’d prefer to travel from mid-to-late May into early-to-mid June with the aim of maximizing my chances that passes will be open, wildflowers in bloom, and crowds and prices not quite up to full high-season levels.

I’ve tried roughing out a few itineraries, more to get a sense of what is/isn’t possible than to develop a specific plan. None of my attempts has been satisfactory: Even after cutting several destinations from my list, my destination wish list is still clearly too long—seeing all of these places will take too many days, and I suspect that in some areas, I’m proposing a pace that is too rushed. I need your help!

A sample (and admittedly non-viable) plan:
(In this particular version I was trying to reach the Ticino as early as was otherwise reasonable on the theory that the Ticino would be warmer than elsewhere.)

Day 1: Fly from the US to Geneva, 1st of 2 nights there
Day 2: Geneva, 2nd of 2 nights there
Day 3: Leave in the morning for Lausanne; explore it, take the little train to the Lavaux wine terraces, and then spend the night in Lausanne
Day 4: Leave in the morning; visit the Chateau Chillon and Rochers-de-Naye before spending the night in/around Montreux
Day 5: Leave in the morning; visit Sion on my way to Zermatt
Day 6: Get up in time to take the Glacier Express to Chur. Hope the weather allows me to see the Matterhorn. (I am aware that this plan leaves basically no time to explore Zermatt. I think I’m OK with that.) Once in Chur, rent a car and drive to Mustair and spend the night there.
Day 7: Visit the convent in Mustair; drive to Scuol and spend the night there
Day 8: Return to Chur, perhaps stopping in Guarda en route; return the car; spend the rest of the day and night in Chur.
Day 9: Get up in time to take the Bernina Express to Tirano and the Palm Express to Lugano. (I would be so close to the Muottas Muragl! It sounds so appealing, but I just don’t see how I would have time.) Spend the 1st of 2 nights in Lugano.
Days 10 through 12: Explore the Ticino: Lugano, Bellinzona, Locarno, …
Day 13: Stop briefly in Lucerne and then head on to the 1st of 3 nights in the Bernese Oberland, possibly staying in/around Lauterbrunnen or Spiez
Days 14 and 15: Explore the Bernese Oberland
Day 16: Continue visiting the Bernese Oberland, and then move on to Bern in time for dinner and the 1st of 2 nights there
Day 17: Bern
Days 18 and 19: Leave in the morning of day 18; spend the next 2 days visiting Murten, Fribourg, Gruyere, …
Day 20: Leave in the morning; go to and explore Neuchatel, including a visit to the Latenium (unless one of you can suggest another place where I can visit a reconstructed / re-created prehistoric, stilted lake house, aka pile house)
Day 21: Leave in the morning; go to and explore Basel
Days 22 through 24: Leave Basel in the morning of day 22; head to the 1st of 3 nights in northeast Switzerland. I would like to visit the Rheinfall, Schaffhausen, Stein-am-Rhein, Appenzell, St. Gallen, ...
Days 25 through 27: Leave NE Switzerland in time to visit Winterthur and reach Zurich in time for dinner on day 25, and then spend 3 nights in Zurich.
Day 28: Fly to the US from Zurich.

So, what should I consider cutting and why? Are there any places I should really try to fit in even though I’ve already got too much on my plate? Any other observations that will help me come up with a realistic plan?

Thanks in advance for any and all comments!
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Old Dec 19th, 2012, 01:08 AM
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There will be the usual naysayers who will say

it can't be done or you are traveling too fast; don't stay in Geneva at all; don't take the Glacier Express because it is overrated, blah, blah, blah.

I've done a lot of what you are going to do and at about the same pace at times.
A few comments:

why Sion?

Zermatt...you can walk the entire village in an hour and other than viewing the peak unless you love "ski villages" no worries.

I'd visit St. Gallen AND the abbey/library (be aware of the open hours) before I did Appenzell; the latter is a picturesque small town and easy to get to by rail from St. Gallen but not sure it is worth that much time.

I like the Glacier Express trip but I enjoyed the Bernina Express a lot more (better scenery overall IMO)

I've never been all that impressed with Bern but if it's your thing...
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Old Dec 19th, 2012, 02:56 AM
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Hi kja,

You don't need to move bases from Geneva to Lausanne to Montreux. All are close enough that you can set up base in any one of them and see the others as a day-trip. I personally would pick Montreux or Vevey as they're smaller and prettier imo.

Sion is a lovely town, and you should enjoy it a lot.

I also liked the Bernina Express more than the Glacier Express, but if you have to travel from Zermatt to Chur, that's the way to do it.

I do think that you are sacrificing a memorable experience in a destination for the sake of setting foot in a lot of places (this is the type of itinerary where folks don't remember if "that lake" was in Lausanne or Lucerne), but it's your money and your time.

Have fun as you plan!

s
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Old Dec 19th, 2012, 07:26 AM
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I agree about using Geneva as a base and doing day trips. It's easier and will save you time.

I highly recommend St Gallen, so don't miss that city if you pare down the list.

I'm not sure you need 3 full days in Zurich. It's a beautiful city, but you can see most of the highlights in two days.
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Old Dec 19th, 2012, 09:02 AM
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Are you sure that from May 15-June 15 that the passes will be open?

Like you, I don't mind switching hotels all the time, but I'm not sure I'd want to spend anytime driving in Switzlerand. I might want to include a boat journey on a lake (from Spiez to Thun and take the train to Bern from Thun?).

Other destinations in the Ticino might appeal to me more than Lugano or Locarno (never been in Bellinzona or Muottas Muragl,, but maybe you should give in your desire to see the latter at the expense of Locarno and what else you can squeeze from Lugano).

There are some Switzerland mavens on the Frommer's message board and I think you should solicit opinions there too. Just re-copy your post over there.
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Old Dec 20th, 2012, 12:08 AM
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kja
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Thanks to all for your prompt and constructive comments!


➢ Dukey1

Hi, Dukey –

It seems like a long while since we ended up on the same Fodor’s thread. Thanks for responding!

• I've done a lot of what you are going to do and at about the same pace at times.

I’m glad to hear that! I’m finding it very difficult to estimate the time I’ll need in various places, so if you are willing to share, I would greatly appreciate some information about the pace at which you traveled through areas you visited that I am thinking of visiting.

• Why Sion?



As swandav2000 notes, some find it lovely. As I recall, at least one of my guidebooks named it one the most charming of all Swiss villages. Did you have a different experience or were you just asking out of curiosity?

• Zermatt...you can walk the entire village in an hour and other than viewing the peak unless you love "ski villages" no worries.


I’m so glad you said so! That was my impression.

• I'd visit St. Gallen AND the abbey/library (be aware of the open hours) before I did Appenzell; the latter is a picturesque small town and easy to get to by rail from St. Gallen but not sure it is worth that much time.

St. Gallen’s abbey and library are a priority for me, so I will make sure I know the open hours and plan accordingly. Do you have a recommendation about the amount of time I should allocate for the abbey and library? Did you spend time visiting other parts of St. Gallen, and if so, what would you recommend?

I’m glad to know that I might be able to plan on a rather short visit to Appenzell. I believe that the Appenzell area has a somewhat unique style of rural architecture and I’d like to find enough time to at least catch a few glimpses.

• I like the Glacier Express trip but I enjoyed the Bernina Express a lot more (better scenery overall IMO)

Good info! If I do both--and with your input, as well as that of swandav2000, I may not--I’ll try to make sure I do the Bernina Express after the Glacier Express.

• I've never been all that impressed with Bern but if it's your thing...



Of course, I won’t know until I go, but Bern’s Old Town and museums do sound to me like my thing, and Bern has been on my wish list for a long time….


➢ swandav2000

Hi, swandav! Thanks for taking the time to comment!

• You don't need to move bases from Geneva to Lausanne to Montreux

I fully understand that most travelers prefer “base” hotels to relocating, but I think my experiences have been (and will be) a bit different:

• First, years of solo international travel have taught me that I personally will rarely, if ever, spend more time moving on than staying put if the travel time to my next destination is more than an hour and is in the general direction of my subsequent journey. Moving on is, quite literally, a time-saver for me.

• Second, I think I remember places better if I spend the night than if I visit as a day trip, and there are at least two reasons for that:
o First, I get to see the new place in differing lights, and with and without day-trippers, so I have a fuller array of memories that are separate from my memories of the place from which I might have visited it.
o Second, as a solo independent traveler who spends a lot of time researching her trips, there are things that help me differentiate places, things that others might not experience. For example, I spend a lot of time researching hotels, thinking about where they are in relation to the things I want to visit, visualizing how to get there from the train or bus or whaterver…. So even before I arrive anywhere, I’ve got a fair amount of information that differentiates one place from other places. And no dinner I eat is ever “another” dinner with the same person or same people, so my memories of dinners aren’t linked to each other. When I look up from my meal, I don’t see someone I know—I see a completely new setting that becomes part of my memory of that particular city or town. (I’m certainly not saying that sharing meals or rooms or anything else with others is a bad thing! I’m just observing that experiences that are shared with the same people—whether meals or rooms or tours or shops or anything--may be less easily distinguished from each other than experiences that don’t share the same social context.)

• Third, I’ve already mentioned that I’m not inclined to get up at the crack of dawn. But tourist destinations, are more often open in the morning than in the evening. If I relocate the day before, I’m ready to begin exploring shortly after I get up. If I don’t, I lose irreplaceable sightseeing time to transit. So if I can relocate when sightseeing options are relatively limited (e.g., after museums close), I can maximize my sightseeing time.

Please understand that I am not saying that frequent relocation is a good strategy for anyone else. Indeed, I suspect it would be a truly awful strategy for many people. All I’m saying is that I personally find sufficient merits to relocating to consider it a viable option under many circumstances.

Oh dear, I just climbed onto a soapbox and railed away!!! Sorry about that!!!


• Sion is a lovely town, and you should enjoy it a lot

Glad to hear it! Can you estimate how much time I should plan to visit Sion?

• I also liked the Bernina Express more than the Glacier Express, but if you have to travel from Zermatt to Chur, that's the way to do it.

You and Dukey are offering a valuable counter to the many arguments I’ve seen that the Glacier Express is not to be missed. It is not the only way for me to get from Zermatt to Chur – for example, I could go from Zermatt to the Ticino and from there to the Grissons/Engadine (sorry if I’m mislabeling regions – I’m still learning!) I’ll explore my options!

• I do think that you are sacrificing a memorable experience in a destination for the sake of setting foot in a lot of places (this is the type of itinerary where folks don't remember if "that lake" was in Lausanne or Lucerne), but it's your money and your time.

I appreciate your general advice – skimming the surface is no substitute for an in-depth experience. I would suggest, however, that spending a night in each of 3 places in the same general area is not necessarily any less in-depth than spending 3 nights in one location and doing day-trips to the other two.

So, with respect, I’d like to get a better sense of how you think my initial plan sacrifices memorable experiences: Are there specific memorable experiences that you believe I will forego with the pace I suggested? Are there places that you think merit more time to ensure that one sees and experiences the highlights at a reasonable pace?

Whether I choose base cities or not, I do NOT want to unnecessarily short-change any of my target destinations. I would greatly appreciate any input you can provide about the time I should allocate to the places I hope to see. As you say, it is my money and my time, and I want to use both well.



➢ ALadyInLondon

Hi, ALadyInLondon, I'm glad you've chosen to comment on my initial plan.

• I agree about using Geneva as a base and doing day trips. It's easier and will save you time.

I understand that using Geneva as a base could make sense, but I’ve found that my way of traveling creates advantages to relocating rather than using a single base; I commented more fully on that issue above. Are there unique aspects of travel around Geneva that I should consider before finalizng a plan?

• 
I highly recommend St Gallen, so don't miss that city if you pare down the list

St. Gallen’s abbey and library are a priority for me. Do you have a recommendation about the amount of time I should allocate to the abbey and library? Did you spend time visiting other parts of St. Gallen, and if so, what would you recommend?

• Zurich. It's a beautiful city, but you can see most of the highlights in two days.

Good to know! By counting the nights before and after my ideal stay in Zurich, and by assuming that I wouldn’t necessarily have any time to explore on the day of my departure flight, I ended up thinking that I should plan on 3 nights in Zurich to ensure that I had at least 2 days to visit it.


➢ goldenautumn

Love the screen name! Makes me smile while imagining wonderful fall vistas – thanks!

• Are you sure that from May 15-June 15 that the passes will be open?

No, I’m not sure, although my preliminary checks suggest that the passes I’m most likely to cross should be open in/around that time frame. I am definitely willing to shift my plans back or forward a bit to maximize the chance that the passes will be open, the wildflowers in bloom, etc., and hope to get feedback in response to this post about how to best time my travels. I would love to hear from anyone who has ideas about the timing of my trip or about how to get the most up-to-date info before I book anything.

• I'm not sure I'd want to spend anytime driving in Switzlerand

I hope to keep my driving to a minimum. From what I’ve learned so far, it can be very difficult and time consuming to reach Mustair by public transportation, and I really would like to see the convent and murals there if at all possible. My preliminary check suggested that it might be most reasonable for me to plan on a 2-day car rental from Chur that would include both Mustair and Scuol (which I also hope to visit). But I am not wedded to the idea of renting a car and would be happy to consider options for public transportation.

• I might want to include a boat journey on a lake (from Spiez to Thun and take the train to Bern from Thun?).

At least 2 boat journeys are definitely on my agenda! I haven’t decided which, pending fuller development of my itinerary. I will definitely keep your suggestion for a boat on Lake Thun on my radar.

• Other destinations in the Ticino might appeal to me more than Lugano or Locarno…



I’ve been interested in Lugano since a friend told me about it decades ago, and since then, I’ve always assumed that I would find time to see Locarno and Bellinzona when I finally made it to the area. Old enticements aside, I like the idea of spending a few days in the Italian-influenced portion of the country as a contrast to seeing areas that show a greater French or German influence. But that doesn’t mean that I can’t rethink! What parts of the Ticino appeal to you more?

• There are some Switzerland mavens on the Frommer's message board and I think you should solicit opinions there too. Just re-copy your post over there.

Thanks for the suggestion! I’ll definitely consider doing so.
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Old Dec 20th, 2012, 04:47 AM
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Hi again,

The activities you'll be sacrificing are:

lingering on a bench at the lake at Montreux and soaking up the views across to France and the parade of travellers on the promenade.

lingering at a mountaintop restaurant somewhere and soaking up the views, chatting with folks at the seats next to you at the restaurant.

hiking

walking

biking

sitting in a cafe for an afternoon enjoying the landscape and getting a feel for the rhythm of the place.

I spent about 3h in Sion in December, and it wasn't enough time. I did walk through the town (they have a signposted self-tour of the medieval buildings in town) and have lunch there, but I didn't go through the vineyards or spend time at/around the castle. I think that half a day, maybe 5-6 hours, would be good.

s
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Old Dec 20th, 2012, 06:59 AM
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rarely does one's travels warrant a one-month straight Swiss Pass but yours sure does - covers all those trains as well as lake boats, buses, city transports and free entry to 400+ Swiss Museums - for lots of great info on Swiss trains and passes I always spotlight these IMO fantastic sites - www.swisstravelsystem.com; http://www.budgeteuropetravel.com/id3.html; www.ricksteves.com.

a pass lets you hop on virtually any train or bus or boat with few exceptions - like official Bernina and Glacier Expresses on which you must make a seat reservation and in case of GE a heft supplement. And when I checked prices yesterday it seems you can save significant money by buying the pass at home if in U.S. rather than in Switzerland though these things do change but for several years the exact same price has often been cheaper here than there for some weird reason. But with your ambitious travel plans - which I also often do - a One-month Swiss Pass is IMO a no-brainer.
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Old Dec 20th, 2012, 12:39 PM
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e 1st of 3 nights in the Bernese Oberland, possibly staying in/around Lauterbrunnen or Spiez>

spiez is nice but nothing so awesome as Lauterbrunnen - stay up in the hills IMO and you will also be closer to places you want to visit in the Jungfrau Region - like taking the fantastic loop from Lauterbrunnen - Grutschalp - Murren - Schilthorn - Gimmelwald - Stechleberg - Lauterbrunnen - to me the finest excursion in the Jungfrau Region due to its vary varied nature of components and all covered 100% by a Swiss Pass except Murren to fabled Schilthorn/Piz Gloria is 50% off.
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Old Dec 20th, 2012, 06:53 PM
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➢ swandav2000

Thanks! Your timing suggestions for Sion are very helpful. And I appreciate your comments about what I might miss. I’ll take some hikes and walks, but I probably will miss many of the other experiences you list – I must admit that after sitting for 5 or 10 minutes, my urge to get moving begins escalating exponentially. But your words make it clear that you savor those moments – may you have many more of them!

➢ PalenQ

I agree -- the Swiss Pass is a no-brainer for me!

Lauterbrunnen it is! Thanks for the recommendation. I am definitely looking forward to the Lauterbrunnen - Grutschalp - Murren - Schilthorn - Gimmelwald - Stechleberg – Lauterbrunnen loop, which I suspect will be one of the highlights of this trip (which I think will hold many highlights). I read your description of that loop on a recent thread, and immediately knew that I would make it part of my journey.
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Old Dec 20th, 2012, 07:30 PM
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Don't know if you can fit it in when in the Geneva/Montreux region, but Yvoire is a gorgeous flower-bedecked, medieval town in France on Lake Geneva (south shore).
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Old Dec 20th, 2012, 08:51 PM
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Hi again,

Thanks for your kind words.

Just a note on the Spiez vs. Lauterbrunnen decision -- I would stick with Spiez. Spiez is a lovely little town that sits right on Lake Thun, and for that is a sweet and wonderful destination. It has wide-open views of the lake and the mountains, and it has a small castle and some vineyards on the hills.

In contrast, Lauterbrunnen sits at the base of some cliffs, which always depress me. Some folks don't even "see" the cliffs, and others think that the cliffs add charm and cosiness to the village. But those cliffs that over-hang the town just depress me. I could never stay there. If you might be something like me, don't stay in Lauterbrunnen.

s
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Old Dec 20th, 2012, 10:00 PM
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Re St. Gallen: IMO the main attraction, at least for me, WAS the church and the library. I explored the rest of the town somewhat but nothing as memorable.

The abbey interior has been called, by some, "the most beautiful in Switzerland" but that's obviously very subjective. It doesn't take a long time to see it but then again that also depends on you and how long you feel like enjoying it, assuming you do enjoy it.

The library is small. You are required to wear special shoes which they supply so that you do not ruin the floors or make too much noise! I was particularly attracted to the mummy and, of course, the interior decoration is waaaaay over the top. IMO you could easily do it justice in an hour.


On another note, I realize that Swanday and I do not always agree about all things Swiss. I happen, for example, to enjoy Lausanne. In terms of Montreux and gazing across the lake...I suggest you definitely stick to your plans to do Rochers de Naye because THAT view "across the lake" is IMO a lot more memorable than the one from down below. If you have a railpass you'll get a discount.

And I assume you know that with a SwissPass you also get transportation included in the various towns/cities such as Montreux...you can take a bus to Chillon as well as walking the lakeside.
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Old Dec 20th, 2012, 10:26 PM
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Swandav2000,

Very curious as to why the cliffs depress you.

Thanks.
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Old Dec 21st, 2012, 01:57 AM
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Some general comments:

While May/June is low season in the mountains it is high season in the cities. In July/August it is the other way around. So the timing doesn't really matter in that regard. You will find hotels offering good deals in cities in July/August (for example, I stayed the 3rd night free in Zürich), and you may find limited options for hotels in higher mountain towns in May e.g. So that evens out in the end financially.

Remembering places better if spending the night makes sense; same here. The point about tourist destinations being more often open in the morning than in the evening is not true in my experience, though. Museums usually don't open earlier than 10 am and close at 5 or 6 pm. Same for castles, churches and such.

Spending only one night in most places doesn't give you flexibility. What I mean is, the weather is usually unstable in spring, it often rains, and you might end up seeing nothing of the mountains at all. Example: Zermatt. Chances to see the Matterhorn are very slim if you only have a couple of hours in town. Or the Grisons part of your trip: It might rain heavily with low hanging clouds, even snowing, the day you plan to drive to Müstair. If you had two or three nights somewhere in the area you could do museums/castles/churches on day, wait for better weather for the mountain excursions.

I see no issues with opening of passes in May/June. True, Albula and Flüela may be closed, but the Julier and Ofen passes are open all year round. So can easily get to your destinations, although maybe with a short detour.

And now some comments on the itinerary:

I would cut time in Lausanne. It's basically quite similar to Geneva (old town uphill, another cathedral, lakeside promenades, some museums). A city of similar size, setting and (French) ambience. My suggestion is to see it on the way to Vevey - you can even take the train through the vineyards in the Lavaux between Lausanne and Vevey - where I suggest you spend two nights. Seeing Chillon is a *must* and the trip up to Rochers-de-Naye is certainly worth your time (weather co-operating).

The whole Grisons part of your trip irritates me. Why backtracking to Chur? Arrival in Chur from Zermatt by Glacier Express is 2.45 pm if I am correct. If you continue by train and bus with changes in Sagliains and Zernez you arrive at Müstair at 6.20 pm. (If you skip the Glacier Express and travel via Zürich you arrive at 4.20 pm.) The drive takes about 3 hours, too - you won't arrive much earlier. And that is the route via Flüela pass - which might be closed. You have the options to either transport the car on a train through the Vereina tunnel (Klosters-Sagliains) or to drive via Julier pass - both somewhat longer. You could easily sightsee in Chur after arrival from Zermatt, spend the night in Chur, proceed to Müstair the next day by public transportation. Since you're not opposed to one-night stays you could spend the night in Müstair, see castle Tarasp and Guarda the next day and stay overnight somewhere in the Engadine (Guarda?) before taking the Bernina Express the next day. Saves you the backtracking to Chur and the rental car cost.

The bus from Tirano to Lugano is sort of an extension of the Bernina Express, not the Palm Express (which runs St. Moritz - Maloja - Chiavenna - Lugano). That bus is operated by the Rhaetian Railways.

For the remaining nights in Ticino I recommend Ascona, which is a good contrast to business (finances) city Lugano.

I like Bern a lot, definitely keep it in the itinerary.

Murten is really small and quite similar to Bern. I think you could skip it. Spend more time in Fribourg instead or see Avenches (Roman ruins) instead. I am not sure about Gruyeres. While it certainly is picturesque, the castle is similar architecture as Chillon. I was not impressed with the city of Neuchatel - I think seeing Latenium on the way to Basel would be fine. Give Basel a little more time instead, it has outstanding museums, sights and things to do.

Three days for Schaffhausen, Stein am Rhein, St. Gallen and Appenzell are too short IMO. You must consider travel time between the destinations, too. The library in St. Gallen is simply WOW, the abbey is beautiful but not as gorgeous as the one in Einsiedeln IMO. St. Gallen has a nice old town, nothing spectacular, but also nice museum(s), especially if you're into textile/clothing stuff - St. Gallen is famous for lace.
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Old Dec 21st, 2012, 07:33 AM
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In contrast, Lauterbrunnen sits at the base of some cliffs, which always depress me. Some folks don't even "see" the cliffs, and others think that the cliffs add charm and cosiness to the village. But those cliffs that over-hang the town just depress me. I could never stay there. If you might be something like me, don't stay in Lauterbrunnen.>

Well I understand that feeling you may have about Lauterbrunnen but I strongly thing that the vast majority of folks would enjoy staying in one of the towns right up in the Jungfrau Region than Spiez, as lovely a town as it is - but it simply does not give the awesome feeling one would experience in say a Wengen or Grindelwald or Murren - towns that go eyeball to eyeball with glacier-girdled mountains and are close to day trips right in the area.

Staying in Spiez means a longer day trip if going to places like Murren, Gimmelwald, the Jungfrau, etc.

No staying right up in a place like Grindelwald is what most people dream of when thinking of Switzerland - a town active with hikers and alpinists coming and going and not the rather somnolent IME Spiez, an ordinary Swiss town albeit one in a great location - it is very sweet as well but is also a very different experience.
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Old Dec 21st, 2012, 08:52 PM
  #17  
kja
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How I love Fodor’s Forums! What a wealth of information from so many people who freely share their knowledge and experiences and viewpoints – thank you all!

My plans are very much in flux; I’ve noted some of the “big” changes I’m considering (based in part on some of your comments) before addressing specific comments below. I hope you will all continue to monitor this thread and continue sharing insights based on your love of, and experience with, Switzerland!

I’m now thinking about:

• Skipping Zermatt (and Sion and the Glacier Express). I would love to see the Matterhorn, but of course, trying to do so takes a chunk of time with no guarantee of success. And I’ve now read many of the reports that suggest that the Glacier Express is overrated. I don’t know if I would think so or not, but I do think I’ll have some other wonderful train journeys on this trip, so skipping this one might make sense.

• Changing the overall routing of my trip. I still hope to start in Geneva and end in Zurich, but I’m considering a route that starts at Lake Geneva and moves clock-wise more-or-less around Switzerland’s outer reaches until I reach the Ticino, and then (as before) going north to Lucerne and on to the Bernese Oberland before ending in Zurich. I think this routing shifts a number of my city visits to earlier rather than later in my trip (and so might let me visit more cities while they are still in low or shoulder season), and shifts some of the more mountainous areas to times when they are in low or shoulder season. I'm not sure what this change would mean in terms of my chances of seeing either snowcapped mountains or wildflowers, but I'm getting the impression that May/June is a bit unpredictable even without considering climate changes. Any thoughts are welcome!

• Finding a way to add some time – at least 2 days – for the Upper Engadine. I would like to be in the area at least long enough to have a small chance of seeing some of these mountains on a clear day. I have NO interest in the main resort destinations, but there are other options that I’m just beginning to explore. (Maybe Pontresina?) Obviously, fitting in another couple of days to an already over-packed wish-list poses challenges, so I am also exploring options for trying to add some time to my trip. Hard to do with limited leave days, but I’m looking into options….


➢ joannyc

Yvoire looks delightful! I’m not sure I can fit it in to this trip, but I have made note of it and thank you for mentioning it.


➢ swandav

Spiez does sound lovely, but I must admit being drawn to the greater convenience of Lauterbrunnen given my purposes for visiting the area. And how will I know if I think the cliffs depressing or charming unless I try it? I’ll give it further thought, and if I do decide on a place in the mountains, I’ll try to work with the proprietor of my lodging to select a suitable room. Of course, one advantage of moving around as frequently as I am prone to do when traveling is that no particular room, however ill-chosen, makes much difference!


➢ Dukey

Thanks for this very helpful information about timing my visit to St. Gallen! Yes, a SwissPass is an integral part of my plan, as is a walk along Lake Geneva between Montreux and the Chateau de Chillon. I may not be a great hiker anymore, but I love walking!


➢ Ingo

Thanks for weighing in and providing such a wealth of information! It’s going to take me a while to think through everything you’ve told me. Here are some initial reactions:

• I appreciate your point that multi-day stays may be crucial to being able to see the magnificent scenery on a sunny day. I hope 3 days give me some latitude in the Bernese Oberland and am trying to think of a way to include a longer stop in the Engadine.

• You mentioned that the Albula Pass might not be open during May/June. Isn’t that part of the “normal” route of the Bernina Express? Is this possible closure something I should consider when finalizing the timing of my trip? (I suspect that whether it is open or not would translate into the difference between a superlative train journey and an even more superlative train journey that one wouldn’t know was even more superlative unless one traveled that route with frequency. Just checking!)

• I will consider curtailing my time in Lausanne and Murten – thanks for suggesting some ways I might be able to trim my plans! And I definitely appreciate the idea of visiting the Latenium en route, rather than allocating a night to Neuchatel.

• Thank you, thank you, thank you for your suggestions about the Grisons! I had obviously not checked carefully when I gave credence to a comment I read somewhere that suggested that visiting Mustair would require a car. Thinking that I would need a car, I planned a route that would let me return it without facing different-city drop-off fees (without even checking whether they would apply). In my defense, I did say, in my original post, that it was just a sample non-viable plan! In any event, I am delighted to know that I can easily use public transportation to reach Mustair. And I’m delighted to learn that I can then visit Scuol and Guarda (and maybe Ardez) the next day.

• I will read more about Vevey and Ascona and will definitely give thought to staying in them.

• It is very helpful to know that you think 3 days insufficient for my priorities in northest Switzerland. I will do more research.

• “Museums usually don't open earlier than 10 am….” Exactly! So IF (and ONLY if) I am in the same town as that museum or whatever, I can actually get up at what for me is a very early hour and still get to a museum (or whatever) when it opens! I am NOT -- in ANY way, shape, or form -- a morning person!


➢ PalenQ

Would you recommend Grindelwald or Murren or Wengen over Lauterbrunnen? My initial research suggested that Lauterbrunnen would better suit my needs (good access, a range of accommodation and dining options; less mobbed with people than Grindelwald; more accessible than Murren; less “resort-y” than Wengen – but I could be WAY off with any or all of these impressions!). Perhaps a better question is: Can you briefly comment on how these places differ in the context of selecting a base location?


Again, thanks to all of you for sharing your thoughts
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Old Dec 22nd, 2012, 01:45 AM
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kja,

Yes, the Glacier Express is overrated. The mountain scenery along this trip is far less spectacular than that of the Bernina Express and what you'll see in the Bernese Oberland.

Moving the mountain experiences to later during your trip is a good idea - in higher regions like Bernese Oberland and Engadine the season starts early, mid June. For wildflowers mid-end June is best IME.

Pontresina is a very good base for the Upper Engadine, especially if your focus is on the Bernina massif with Diavolezza, Morteratsch, Roseg valley, and Muottas Muragl. Sils is another good choice (my favourite, btw), especially if you plan to visit P. Corvatsch, Fex Valley, the lakes, Bregaglia valley/Soglio.

Mürren and Wengen will still be pretty much "closed" in early June. I'd stay in Lauterbrunnen. June is when the sun is highest up, so it won't be too dark and the cliffs won't be too threatening (as in darker time of the year). I stayed at Hotel Oberland once, beautiful views (Mt. Jungfrau) from the balcony.

When I said "Albula Pass not open in May/June" I meant the road, because you planned to drive. The train runs through a tunnel on the Albula route, not over the pass. The Albula route between Chur and St. Moritz is part of the Glacier Express, it has been part of the Bernina Express route for some years now as well. The reason is simply - marketing. The original Bernina Express route goes St. Moritz - Tirano, but to promote the business they start the Express trains in Chur.

Re: Guarda and Ardez - best would be a walk from Guarda to Ardez, it's only one and a half hour, slightly downhill, passing pastures with blooming wildflowers, you'll probably see cows, panoramic views all the time.

LOL, ok, for someone who is the opposite of a morning person 10 am is still early ;-)

I.
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Old Dec 22nd, 2012, 03:09 AM
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If you're interested in the architecture, I'd recommend you visit the open air museum at Brienz when in the Bernese Oberland - there are houses there from all regions of Switzerland.
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Old Dec 22nd, 2012, 09:07 AM
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http://ballenberg.ch/en/Welcome

Yes indeedy - the Ballenberg Open-Air Museum is great - lovely setting in meadow overlooking Lake Brienz. Take a lake boat from Interaken-Ost station to Brienz then a postal bus up to the museum - the go back to Brienz - a village known for wood carving - check out the intircatley carved wooden balconies on chalet-style houses and take the train back to Interlaken.

A great day out and if you have a Swiss Pass everything is 100% covered - trains, bus, boat and even entry to themuseum - 22 Swiss francs for an adult about about $25 - free with a Swiss Pass, which gives free entry to 400+ Swiss Museums.
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