sandralist

On my twitter feed this morning....

http://www.thelocal.fr/20160113/pari...ime=1452689454

jubilada

This is interesting.
I had not understood that it is actually legal to rent out an apartment for 120 days.

Sarastro

<i>I had not understood that it is actually legal to rent out an apartment for 120 days.</i>

In Paris, rentals of fewer than 12 months are illegal. The exceptions are:

1. Those which qualify as someone´s primary residence and are not offered for more than 120 days per year.

2. Those whose owners have made special application to the City of Paris and who have been granted an exemption and are allow to rent short term. There are probably no more than a few hundred such properties in the city.

kerouac

Some of the sleazier holiday rental companies in the city have been recruiting needy expats to sign one year leases on their properties. Every time a rental is made, the person moves out of the apartment -- either to a friend's place or to another one of the apartments occupied by a fellow needy expat -- for a week or two. The renters are instructed to tell anybody who asks that the apartment has been loaned to them by friends. The "official" tenant is purportedly actually occupying the apartment often enough to trick other people in the building into thinking that they really live there.

Whathello

'A recent survey found that across France, 44 percent of the homes advertised on Airbnb are permanently available for rental.' With fines of about 20 ke and more...

First time I see a %.

I'm very surprised however since we have seen threads where it was said that 'all was good in the best of world', Airbnb was about to strike a deal with authorities ?

Maybe I even saw it on Adrian Leeds' blog - but then maybe she didn't understand all the implications of French laws and tortuous working of the french administrations..

Or maybe I don't understand all of what these owners-oriented say.

kerouac

Two "deals" have been struck between Airbnb and the authorities:

1. Collection by Airbnb of the tourist tax on all rentals.
2. Official reporting by Airbnb (and the other holiday rental companies of course) of all income made from holiday rentals -- to the government with a copy to the proprietors.

I think it is safe to assume that agreement #2 will already cause a number of places -- including legal places normally occupied by the owner -- to be taken off the market because people have escaped paying income tax on this revenue up to now and they are horrified that they have to do it in the future.

Sarastro

It should be noted that the 44% is for all of France. It is not illegal to offer vacation rentals in most of the country. It is only prohibited in areas having populations in excess of 200,000 people, where housing for residents may be difficult to find - such as in Paris. Earlier this year, someone from the mayor´s office stated that the number of illegal in Paris is much higher.

The deal that Airbnb struck with Paris had nothing to do with illegal apartment rentals. Airbnb was not collecting the required <i>taxe de séjour</i> and forwarding it to the city. The deal was that Airbnb would start collecting and forwarding the tax and that the city would not pursue them for back taxes not paid.

Adrian Leeds is well aware of the vacation rental laws and has stated here on Fodors that she no longer owns any such properties. She only acts now as an adviser to others.

There are those who actually own rental property and contribute to public forums, such as Fodors or Trip Advisor, to promote vacation rentals. They paint a very one sided picture of the business and what one can actually expect.

Airbnb has made a big push here in Paris to attract owners to offer their apartments part time to supplement their incomes. This type of activity is completely legal and can benefit both parties. What is illegal is what some investors have done in purchasing apartments and in turning them into effectively black market hotels.

Christina

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the percentage in Paris were much higher than in, say, Marseille. Because Paris is where most tourists want to go and where investors want to buy. ALso, people who think it would be so cool to finance their own vacations by owning Parisian property and renting it 50 weeks of the year want to be there.

There was one person on Fodors who claimed they heard on the radio in the US that Airbnb was about to strike some deal, as if they were so special they'd get special exemptions. I thought it was a bunch of baloney that Airbnb would get some special deal (and I didn't really think that would be on the radio in the US, either). I think the "deals" that kerouac stated make sense, as that is the minimum they are supposed to do to be legal, otherwise, it would probably have been totally shut down.

Sarastro

<i> ALso, people who think it would be so cool to finance their own vacations by owning Parisian property and renting it 50 weeks of the year want to be there.</i>

There are many who do this but these apartments are not those of <b>primary residents</b>. These owners are not residents at all. Apartments owned by those not living in them full time are effectively secondary homes. The renting short term of secondary homes is illegal in any area of France covered by the law ALUR which includes Paris.

fuzzbucket

Here is a link (in French) to further information about the crackdown, from a neighborhood organization which has a very good success rate with the Mayor's Office. Most of the major players which advertise on the internet are being targeted, mainly due to residents' complaints:
http://vivrelemarais.typepad.fr/blog...ll%C3%A9g.html

Whathello

One must either comply or rent it under the radar, avoiding Airbnb which is now giving their listings to authorities.
Mouth to mouth, cash should still work - unless you get denounced.

I was at a friends' house 3 years ago in southern France. He was renting from a Belgian who was doing it illegally (of course).

We made a barbecue and the neighbour told us to stop it, since it could put the whole region ablaze... (the BBq was tiny, on a concrete spot, close to the wimming pool).
Which we told the neighbour who wouldn't listen.
So I told the guy to leave us alone or call the cops.

He was himself a cop, so he must have realized he would be laughing stock with his colleagues. He therefore denounced his neighbour (the renter) for illegal renting... We had to write letters saying we were not renting but friends of the owner etc. My friend told me to keep my mouth shut next time - I told him I wasn't sure I could do that
(Now he bought his own house in southern France, like all good Belgians)

So, it is still possible to dodge the authorities - but wouldn't work several times...

Welcome to France. Times of easy money are behind us.

fuzzbucket

I think the word "raid" is inflammatory and highly misleading - though it certainly gets people's attention...

The Mayor's agents visited 1,000 apartments during this last investigation in the 1st and 6th arrondissements, including apartments listed on AirBnB, HomeAway, VRBO, Abritel, MorningCroissant and numerous other sites. This is what happens during the visit:

An agent rings the doorbell, identifies himself/herself (with credentials), and asks a few general questions when someone answers the door - where do you live, how long are you staying, etc. The agents have the legal right to enter the apartment and have a look around, though they won't touch your belongings. If nobody is home and there is a key available (the gardienne often has one), the agents have the right to enter the property and have a look around. The whole thing is over with in about 5 to 10 minutes, depending on the size of the apartment.

Nothing happens to the people staying there, and nobody will be evicted on the spot. Nothing happens to the agency listing the apartment for rent, since this in itself is not illegal. Only the property owner will be contacted for further information and possible legal action. The owners now face fines which have been raised to 100,000 EU.

sandralist

From the text of the article for those who didn't click on the link:

"Paris authorities have raided apartments across the capital in an effort to get tough on Airbnb hosts who aren't playing by the rules.

"Paris officials have been carrying out "raids" on apartments in the 1st and 6th arrondissements on Tuesday and Wednesday - both hugely popular areas for tourists. The raids follow a similar crackdown in the Marais six months ago."

From the point of view of the tourist, it may not feel like a raid or even a surprise. From the point of view of the landlord, this is a raid and is designed to be a raid, with the element of no-warning & surprise, and it is being deliberately publicized as a raid to the media in order to scare landlords into taking their illegal apartments off the market.

Don't know why others have taken an interest in explaining these issues on Fodor's to travelers to Paris, but my concern has always been that people who book apartments in Paris can't be sure the booking will be honored if the apartment is being illegally rented. I know in my own posts I have always told people that if they occupy an illegal apartment they don't face penalties from Paris authorities if found out.

The risk to their vacation is in the booking and the possibility of having a booking cancelled with such short notice they are unable to find alternate accommodations in the same price bracket or of similar quality.

Otherwise, I couldn't care less about the issue.

sandralist

Just to note also, for people who may not have read to the end of the article, that Parisian authorities are looking to raise the penalty to landlords -- now capped at 25,000 euros -- to up to 100,000 euros. Right now, for someone illegally renting an apartment for 1500-2000 euros per week, a fine of 25,000 euros if caught can be a manageable cost of doing business. The profit margin is still quite high even after paying the fine. At 100,000 euros, it is harder absorb the cost. So whether Parisian authorities are able to boost the penalty is something to watch when calculating the risks of booking an apartment whose landlord might be doing so illegally.

Nonconformist

Some travellers might also wish to know they could avoid facilitating others committing tax fraud.

Sarastro

<i>I couldn't care less about the issue.</i>


Luckily there are those who do care and appreciate knowing both sides of the story.

fuzzbucket

In fact, from the point of view of the tourist occupying the apartment when the agents come to visit, this might well come as a surprise - especially if they have not been informed about the issue by the person they rented from.

Le Parisien featured a story a few days ago (I'm paraphrasing):
An agent arrived in the morning and awakened a couple who came to the door in their pyjamas to answer his questions.
Another family was having trouble trying to get all their luggage into the apartment, but talked to the agent anyway.
One man opened the door, then slammed it in the agent's face, saying in English,"I don't want to talk to you!"

So - forewarned is forearmed, even if your apartment doesn't get visited.
More investigations are scheduled to follow in different arrondissements.

Whathello

I love the door slamming.

Must the same kind of guys who find outrgeous to get fined when speeding.

sandralist

fuzzbucket,

I am surprised tourists open their doors in apartment rentals or would speak to people claiming to be agents of the government. I wouldn't. Not long ago I was in a NYC hotel room and there was a knock on the door from somone who shouted they were from "housekeeping," wanting to inspect the room to make sure the maid had cleaned it properly earlier. I told them I wasn't opening the door and didn't. I wonder what happens to people if they don't open the door when Mayor Hidalgo's agents come knocking.

Sarastro,

I've taken a huge amount of abuse from various quarters on Fodor's for posting about this issue from the beginning, and I have always posted "both sides of the story." I do care what happens to people planning a trip who turn to social media for advice and get bad advice, especially bad advice as consequential as this. But the core issues of short-term lets in Paris are up to Parisians, and there are more than two sides to this story. There are definitely true Parisians who think the Mayor is going about this the wrong way, and that the issues of affordable housing in Paris are unrelated to short-term lets, and that Paris benefits more than it loses by short-term vacation rentals. That argument is for Parisians to thrash out, and while it is interesting to think about if you are not living in France (same issues exist in San Francisco, London), it's really not for outsiders to decide how Paris should move from here.

Issues of tax evasion only rarely rise to the level of being something travelers to a foreign country can do something about. In Greece and Italy, there is a good case to be made to tourists asking them to comply with no-cash-transaction laws and insisting on receipts. (It's a wordy case, and I'm not going to make it here). Likewise, not buying from vendors who operate outside of the law, selling fake goods and undermining local business.

But people booking lodgings with a credit card in Paris or London or Amsterdam, whether it be in a hotel or b&b or apartment, will never have a way of knowing if the individuals they are dealing with are reporting all their income to the government or paying the correct amount of bed tax. I'm really not interested in burdening tourists with that task. Fine with me if people want to an express an opinion about tax cheats, but I've pwearied of reading on travel theads people scolding and haranguing travelers and making moral judgments about them over issues like this.

Sarastro

The core issues of vacation rentals in France have already been decided and the government has already passed the laws. What remains is enforcement.

I´ll certainly agree that many believe that Mayor Hidalgo is going about enforcement the wrong way. My neighbors, if fact the Parisians with whom I have discussed this subject, believe that the mayor is not moving fast enough to close down the illegal rentals.

There is widespread support here to allow resident owners to supplement their incomes by renting out their homes for a period, defined by law, not to exceed 120 days per year. Airbnb has an advertising campaign to attract owners of this type. Staying in someone´s apartment while they themselves are on vacation is perfectly legal and remains an alternative to hotels.

Absentee owners or investors who purchase residential properties, possibly subdivide them and ultimately turn them in to unregulated vacation rentals are the real targets of the short term rental laws. The penalties are designed to deter them. I don´t understand how anyone can argue that eliminating residential housing and turning available units into black market vacation rentals for tourists does nothing to exasperate the housing shortage in Paris.

Just curious sandralist but what is a <i>true Parisian</i>?