I saw your question on the other thread and feel really bad for what you're going through.

Sorry but I can't help with your specific question but I would like to know more about the Etat des Lieux document that was mentioned in the former thread. Knowing more about this document might help protect everyone when renting apartments.

The état des lieux is signed by both parties at the beginning and the end of a lease. I presume there is a similar document for short term rentals. It notes the condition of everything and any defects (spots on the carpet, loose tiles, dirty wall or whatever).

I would like to be able to say that once both parties have signed, the list is ironclad, but I know that it is not true. There are always clauses for "hidden defects" and such -- for example if it is discovered a week later that pipes have been fixed with chewing gum when the whole thing explodes.

Anyway, yes, people can be sued when they are absent and they are much more likely to lose if they are not represented by someone (lawyer, consumer organization, etc.). Money can be taken out of a French bank account, but that would be probably years later if all other procedures have failed to produce results.

Not knowing what the problem is, that is really all I can say.

Hi intex,

You can always be sued by anyone, anywhere.

If you are not there to defend, you will lose.

If you have assets in France they can be siezed.

Take your money out of your French account, and forget about it.

Just don't plan to go back to France for several years.

Sorry to sound selfish, but as someone who rents in Paris often, I'd appreciate knowing who the scoundrel is (company or apartment) so I can avoid it in the future!

And I am sorry about your situation!

I have rented short-term apartments several times in Paris, and while the agencies did have that form for me to sign with the items, I don't believe the last one I rented from a private owner did have that form. I wasn't worried because he told me he trusted me and didn't even require me to pay a deposit. SO there wasn't any way for him to easily keep it. He did require me to buy French apt. rental insurance, though, so I suppose that would cover damages. I was glad to do so, it didn't cost much for a week or two (about 30 euro).

"I'd appreciate knowing who the scoundrel is" It's not at all clear that landlord IS a scoundrel. On this thread - www.fodors.com/forums/threadselect.jsp?fid=2&tid=34756176 - the OP says: "We left the APt in EXCELLENT condition, a few broken plates and glasses, but everything else repaired or replaced (lightbulbs, curtains,paint,etc)
Now they want to repaint the Apt at a cost of approx $3-4000, and the sofa from Ikea, with a missing button on the cushion, replaced for $500, etc, etc." I think there might be legitimate dispute as to whether it was in EXCELLENT condition if the renter had to repair and replace things like curtains.

thursdayad, you are absolutely right! I didn't see the first thread but I can't imagine doing damage that would require repainting, curtains, etc. Geez, I've never even broken a glass in a rental!

I re-read the OP and it said "...in excess of my forfeited deposit..." to forfeit deposit he must have been aware he made a lot of damage.

intex, just what did you damage and how????

I should have known things might be bad after we signed and met the former tenant, and she said that the guy charged her for everything, I chalked it up to a young girl destroying the Apt.

If this Apt was in the U.S., the landlord would have jumped up in joy at the site of the Apt at the end of the lease. I chnged shower curtains that were dingy after a year, all burned bulbs, cleaned and washed ceilings and walls, repaired washers and dryers at our expense. Left a new Flat screen TV, Telephone, Air Fan, Portable heater, sheets, etc.
They were always charming until the final bill came.
Yes, I received an inventory at the beginning and end, but he always said, that the repairs were nothing significant, and I signed off. Remember this is a frenchman that does not speak English, and me with NO legal french vocabulary. I conduct business on a handshake here, and naively think that others are sincere and think likewise.
I will chalk up the $4-5,000 loss in deposit to a learning experience, but no way will pay the other amount, which is like extortion to me.
I read this person totally wrong, I usually am a better judge of character, but I guess the language through me.

This was NOT a rental company, I usually deal with Paris Perfect, on short term rentals, and have NEVER had a problem, but this was a longer 1 year term, and the way things were, having sorted thru 20-50 Apts in 3 weeks, we were happy to get it at the time.

I am going to go thru my files to see what I signed. What a joke, as I was thinking what to do with the deposit after it was returned.This is an prime example of "caveat emptor" sp??.My fault for not getting a lawyer, but then again I am not fans of lawyers, and have to pay the piper now.

MelJ:
I damaged 5-6 glasses (20 Euros), 3-4 plates (25 Euros) lost one spoon (3 Euros) and had two buttons come off an Ikea bottom of the line loveseat (New couch probably 90 euros). No damage to walls, just normal wear and tear for a year of use. He just wanted to have a new Apt. With all the problems back home, I just resigned myself to losing the deposit AFTER I received the invoice for damages from the landlord. I am pretty realistic, and realized I was not going to fly back and fight someone over it with lawyers, especially when HE had the money in his account. I just draw the line at paying the thief any more $.

Intex, thanks for coming back and replying. Too often, we never hear back. Let us know what the final resolution is...

Hi Intex,

I've had landlords like that in the US.

I am hoping if I ignore him, over time he will just take my deposit money and run. Lets see how much of persistent thief he is... I am in no mood to fight in court, too many business problems here with the economy to keep me busy.
Thanks everyone. I will let you know what he does.

Of course they can sue without you.

Otherwise all anyone would ever have to do to avoid being sued is leave the jurisdiction.

You need to speak with someone in the American Embassy in Paris. Have them put you in touch with a local attorney to discuss the vagaries of the french legal system. IF it is the same as ours, you can not be sued unless the serve you (summons) to let you know of the actual suit. Unless the agreement you signed contains a provision that you waive service, then it'll go to judgment before you know it.

BTW, people in the US leave the jurisdiction all of the time to avoid service. Without personal service, the court obtains no jurisdiction over you, and no judgment can be entered, unless there was a waiver of service in the agreement.

Thanks for the advice, I will check the papers to see if there were any waivers.

Did your dog do any damage? I remember you were buying your daughter a puppy after you got to France.

> Without personal service, the court obtains no jurisdiction over you, and no judgment can be entered, <

In the US, all the plaintiff has to do is certify that notice was sent to your last known place of residence.

Last year I checked my Credit Report and discovered that I had a judgement against me rendered in AZ. I live in GA.

I called the clerk of the court and explained that I had not been served, and had no idea what had happened.

Following that, i called a lawyer in AZ.

The upshot was, that it would cost 2x the judgement to fight it, plus the initial $50 to the lawyer to find out what had happened.

I then called the plaintiff and offered him 1/2 the amount. He insisted on full payment, even though he admitted that I was probably not the person he had intended to sue.

I asked him if he wanted money or a souvenir.

He refused to accept 1/2 the amount.

He now has a souvenir.

I have a judgement on my cred rep, with a letter explaining that I hadn't been served.

I absolutely did not understand that anecdote.

Ira:

Arizona apparently has an alternative to personal service, often known as service by mail. In the states that allow that type of service, it is usually allowed in lower dollar amounts. Your example is why I recommend Intex contact a french speaking attorney (reading actually) so that this type a vagary can be identified. If it allows service by mailing to the last known address for an amount less than say 5K euro, then he's in for a ride.

BTW, setting aside a judgment for lack of personal service shouldn't be that expensive. Send a message to Robespierre, he lives in AZ and have him identify a young attorney not working for a large firm. His hourly rate will be significantly cheaper, and the process is fairly straight-forward.

Intex, what exactly did you sign on leaving the apartment? This will determine in a large part what the landlord can bill you for. Also, was this considered a furnished rental?

What I first signed was a "Bail d'habitatiobn Mueblee" , which outlined the lease, deposit and allinventory.

When I left, I signed a "Etat des Lieux" I was told that if I didn't sign this, he would not refund any of my $6K deposit, and with a few hours to get to the airport, not much I could do. When you are in such a situation, you only have two options:
1. Do not sign, in which you forfeit $6K
2. Sign and take your chances.
If someone is going to cheat you, he already has this planned out, and you go along for the ride, once he has your deposit.
This is not the US with small claims court.
I dont want to deal with another attorney, just finished paying for two attorneys kids full college education, trying to recoup losses by vendors declaring bankruptcy, do not want to fund anymore kids!

PS- By the way, my daughter did get the dog, but it stayed at her freinds house, that was dog friendly, and before anyone asks, she is now here, and loving it, and No, she did not die during the flight home.

I don't understand the remark "This is not the US with small claims court."

France has a small claims court.

Intex,

You do have the right to demand that they send you justification of the charges (estimates or paid bills). If they don't, you can file a case with the mediator.

Looking around for information about this, it seems that there are many unscrupulous landlords in France that abuse the deposit system. They cannot charge you for normal wear and tear, but they always try to. Also, if a problem is not noted in the état des lieux, he cannot hold you responsible for it.

The "etat des lieux" is made at the beginning and at the end of the rental. It lists all the damages observed. For instance, as a renter, you want to mention in the initial "etat des lieux" that a pipe is damaged, or that there's a stain on the wall. You must be extra-careful and insist on mentioning on it everything you notice.

If both the renter and the landlord signed both "etats" at the beginning and the end of the rental, the landlord can charge you for damages mentioned in the second one that aren't mentioned in the first one.

He certainly can't just keep the deposit (by the way, your deposit seems abnormally large...how much was the rent?)and demand more money arbitrarily. He must provide at your request the invoices for the repairs that had to be done (or replacement of furnitures, etc..), for the damages mentioned in the second "etat des lieux" you signed.
By signing it, you agreed that whatever was mentioned in it was true and accurate. So you might want to check what exactly is listed, and compare it with the "etat" you signed at the beginning of the rental.

Had you refused to sign, your deposit wasn't forfeited. He just lied. He would have had to call a particular sworn-in lawyer/public officer called an "huissier de justice" who would have himself examined the state of the rental and listed the damages he noticed. The cost would have been shared between you (maybe €200, but I might be very wrong).


If the damages (as established by a comparison between the two "etats des lieux") were minimal, and the payment he demands are disproportionally high (and $ 6000 seems quite high to me, not even counting what he wants on top of it), you could probably have fought it in court quite easily if you had still been in France, even without a lawyer (and even with one, it's very possible the landowner would have had to cover your costs if it was shown he acted in bad faith). I understand that once you left the country, it's way more difficult, and he certainly counted on it.

If I were you, I would try to contact your embassy, maybe they could give you some basic advices.
In any case, I would try to figure out how much he could reasonably claim (according to the "etats") and would absolutely demand all the invoices (though he'll probably send inflated ones, or possibly even fake ones). I would probably hint at being ready to fight his claims in a court of law, in case he would know he's on shaky grounds and would back off (ideally agreeing to give back the part of the deposit above the actual or reasonable cost of the repairs)

Indeed, as mentioned by a previous poster, you could in theory also request the intervention of a mediator to settle the dispute without actually going to court. But I'm not sure it's going to be practical once you've left the country.

While I'm at it, I've no clue how court documents are served when you're in a foreign country. But I'm wondering if your landlord actually intend to go to court, hoping he'll able to get a ruling in his favour due to you being absent and not represented, for whatever ludicrous amount he'll ask for or if he's just trying to intimidate you into paying more.

Note that I once had a landlord that pulled a similar trick on me. I was moving to another town, and he was absent several times in a row for the "etat des lieux". Since I was leaving, I eventually had to ask a young friend to go there and sign it on my behalf.


The landlord then claimed all sort of damages, and bullied my friend into signing the "etat des lieux", also claiming that the deposit would be forfeited if he didn't sign, that he would call a lawyer and that I would have to pay for the lawyer's fees, and so on. He also demanded that he sign it immediately (even though the lease was to end only some days later) and even refused to let him leave the apartment to call me (saying that if my friend left, he would call this lawyer whose fees would cost me a fortune).

I eventually got most of my money back, but it was a pain in the ass. And of course I was living in France, could easily get legal informations, and could threaten him back with legal action.

Note that I also made sure that the next tenant would be informed, but she reacted like you and disregarded my warning, since the landlord had told her how bad a tenant I had been, and how much damages I had caused.

I made the mistake of signing the ending statement he handed me without understanding it. He kept on stating that these are just little items and that he would depsoit the balance left over, several thousand euros after they were taken care of.
Live and learn.
I have no desire to spend time going back to Paris to spend time in a courthouse. I have a friend leaving next week, I will have them take all the paperwork to show to someone there to see if they can do anything without too much bother.

To add to this mess, I just received old statements from my Bank in Par is, and evidently Orange was charging me for overseas calls to the U.S., when I thought I had the unlimited calls to the U.S. via the Voip phone they gave me.