I honestly had never heard of Panera Bread before you mentioned it. I looked it up on line, and there are apparently 250 bakeries in the chain in the U.S. There is one 20 miles from our home in Washington State, up near the Canadian border. so I will give it a try.

I find it hard, however, to believe they are better than those in France. Even if it comes close, it will be a relief from most American imitation breads.

nuke - Panera used to be called the Saint Louis Bread Company and the goal was to make the best bread possible, on a large scale and perhaps they have?

I've had it and I'll pass for a real French baguette in a New York minute!!!

Too bad, they don't sell food in the US. It's impossible to get decent cheese, Quark, Harzer Roller,..., the essential foods that supply proteins. I'd give anything for quark. Bread is the smallest of your food problems!
I'd bring food from home, but then, most likely customs will take it from me.
Who needs white bread.

I'd never eat in Panera again. The bread I've had is OK but nothing to rave about. They put tons of sugar in their food; everything they make is super sweet.

The last time I stopped at Panera I got a chicken salad sandwich. I took one bite and wanted to know where the chicken went to; did it fly away before it got to the sandwich? The sandwich was mostly super sweet salad dressing (instead of mayo) and a few grapes. Tiny bit of chicken.

nukesafe - save your gas and time for something worthwhile.

Had to look both those up online, logos. The Quark sounds like cottage cheese, which I detest, only unsalted. The Harzer Roller, flavored with caraway sounds interesting, though.

I can't argue about your assessment of most American cheeses. A few artisanal cheese makers in our area Pacific North West) are trying; but have a long way to go.

Quark isn't cottage cheese. It's what you use for a cheesecake. Eat 500g to a kilo a day. Makes boys strong and women pretty. Bread otoh is not really needed anyway.

I really like Panera bread, but sure wouldn't say the baguettes are better than in France. I eat there regularly and haven't ever had anything I didn't like.

Panera is generally gross, and their "baguettes" don't hold a candle to anything you can buy in France.

Quark is readily available at farmers' markets all over the USA, at least here in the NE/mid-Atlantic. It's nothing to rave about -- boring, bland cheese.

LOL, big differences in opinions on this one!

Funny my dads friend who is a Frenchman swears by the bread at Le Pan Quotidian- saying it's closest to the bread in France.

I can't argue about your assessment of most American cheeses.

Most in amount but not in the number of cheeses. There is probably a greater variety of artisanal cheeses than there are "industrial" cheeses, but they represent only a very small portion of the market. If in the SF Bay Area, I recommend a visit to the cheese section of Rainbow Grocery in SF.

Funny my dads friend who is a Frenchman swears by the bread at Le Pan Quotidian- saying it's closest to the bread in France.

I think that Le Pain Quotidien exists in Paris.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=&bih=&q=le+pain+quotidien+paris&gbv=2&oq=Le+Pain+Quotidien%2C+Paris&gs_l=heirloom-hp.1.0.0l6j0i30l3j0i10i30.1438.9115.0.11233.24.14.0.10.10.0.247.1728.4j8j2.14.0...0.0...1c.1.tE1BFjj20SQ

I think that Le Pain Quotidien exists in Paris.

It is a chain from Belgium so it is Belch. They should be careful, they could give chains a good name. First time we saw one was in Rome and now there are four or five within wlaking distance of the apartment.

We have both Le Pain Quotidien and Panera Bread within 10 miles of home and visit them regularly. Panera has good soups and bread but the baguettes are NOT as good as I have had in France. Best baguettes ever were at Chateau de Rochecotte in the Loire.

Do Fodorites actually still know how good food tastes? Try to stay away fron industrial food for a few years and your tastebuds and your body weight should return to "normal". It's that easy. The vast majority eats garbage made eatable with flavor enhancers.
There's not a chance discussing food quality, because people don't actually know, how food is supposed to taste.

Try to stay away fron industrial food for a few years

But would what I do with my forklift?

We live in a neighborhood where we shop in the European tradition where the bakery, cheese, meat,wine, and produce are all in different stores on different streets. Unfortunately, it kills most of the day.

"There's not a chance discussing food quality, because people don't actually know, how food is supposed to taste."

Why then don't you go away and save your vitriol for a topic on which you have something informed to say?

The vast majority eats garbage made eatable with flavor enhancers

Perhaps of the American population as a whole, but travelers, including posters on this forum, who appreciate the food of other countries might be more discriminating,

Well I or my friend did not say "baguettes" but "bread" - like in bread used for sandwiches - breads that many French bakeries carry in addition to the staple baguettes - so we are comparing bread to bread not Panera's baguettes to French baguettes.

That said a local supermarket here does make their own baguettes and my French friend said they are on par with most in France - she also says that the quality of baguettes in France is rather haphazzard - not all baguettes in ordinary bakeries are all great tasting to her.

Now she is only a typical French person who does not patronize the fancy gourmet bakeries that Americans who may consider themselves experts in French breads may - she is talking about the hum-drum ordinary patisserie/boulangerie found on practically every street corner in France.

And hers is only one opinion but I did find it interesting and when one thinks of it it is pretty simple to make bread so why cannot places like Panera Bread make bread as good as the average French boulangerie? Well maybe there is some catering to tastes involved, like sweetness but generally making simple bread if pretty simple and most boulangeries I've been in in France seem to make baguettes very simply from ovens in the back - often I think with breads already rolled up and they just have to cook it.

Why can't they make bread the way they do in France?

I would guess that it is incompatible with a franchise operation. Is the dough at Panera made centrally, frozen, and baked locally or does it come from a mix, hydrated and stirred locally before baking, as a famous donut chain does?

If would, of course, ask the same question about the Paul chain in France and the UK. Bread at Paul is okay, but it is not artisanal, and it may well be no better than Panera.

If anyone will fly me to Paris tomorrow, I will run down to Panera and collect some samples. Then early Wednesday, I will go to a Paul location and to a couple of neighborhood bakeries and report back to you all here on the results of my taste 'n' texture test!

Premium enonomy is okay.

My wife spent much of her childhood in France, FWIW, and her opinion is that Panera, while nothing like the little Rue Mouffetard boulangerie we went to every morning on our Paris visit, is as good as you'll get for an inexpensive American fast food chain.

Neither of us ever set foot in one of the more well known establishments, but have no problems dining in Panera, or recommending Panaera to visitors. Over the holidays we polished off two of their multi-grain baguettes with some of our home made pesto. Yes, there is a bit more sugar than we prefer, but we don't have a Rue Mouffetard boulangerie in our town, and we do have two Paneras.

Ackislander, does that save you all that running around?!

<<Well I or my friend did not say "baguettes" but "bread" - like in bread used for sandwiches - breads that many French bakeries carry in addition to the staple baguettes - so we are comparing bread to bread not Panera's baguettes to French baguettes.>>

Then the title of your thread is totally misleading.

Yes I made a mistake in the title and after thinking over corrected it. Thanks for pointing that out.

Nelson asks, "Ackislander, does that save you all that running around?!"

Yesp, I am afraid it does!

They opened up a Panera in the neighborhood and I tried a baguette per this conversation. They only thing it has in common with a French baguette is that they both use water found somewhere on this planet.

There is a baguette from a chain that actually tastes good and it is from Le Pain Quotidien which is a chain from Belgium which makes it Belch.

The same is true for what passes as bagels. Just because it is round, does not make it a bagel. Things like the flour and boiling it before baking should be a consideration.

I'm lucky I live in an area with good bread and good restaurants and do not need to eat at Panera.

Hi PQ,

I think that your friend was trying to say something nice about US food and that is what popped out.

I've eaten Panera bread. I wouldn't go out of my way to do it again.

No Ira she is my ex-wife and BELIEVE me she does not say things just to say something nice - au contraire! And again I mis-stated my headline here as a baguette but it was some kind of sandwich she had when she was talking about that bread being better than most bread in bakeries in France.

The few times I've had a sandwich at Panera, the bread has tasted undercooked, yeasty or doughy, with none of the nicely developed flavor that comes from a long rising time. This occurred at several locations, but all occasions were more than two years ago, so perhaps they learned correct baking times since then.

weird because Panera's bases their reputation on their breads - formerly known as the St Louis Bread Company before changing to a more nicer sounding name.

I guess the point is that not all French bread in France is that good either!

There's plenty of bad bread in France, especially now at the chain supermarkets. The French talk about it all the time, at least where I hang out. People make their own or go to boulangeries artisanales. But honestly, almost any bread I've had in France tastes better to me than Panera. I actually think Harris Teeter's Brea Bakery turns out some darn good bread, not the baguettes so much (though they're good), but caraways and pumpernickels and boules and Italian and sourdough and asiago cheese, and jalapeño and other specialties. Better than Whole Foods, better than the Firehook and other specialty bakeries around here...just really good bread.

There's plenty of bad bread in France, especially now at the chain supermarket>

You live in a very different world than my French friend - she says Carrefour has great bread - they bake it themselves just like any boulangerie and have state-of-the-art equipment, etc.

And why would any mom and pop boulangerie make bread any better than Panera or any American operation would want to - making baguettes is not rocket science - bread, water and flower pretty much - now talking about the typical boulangerie not the artisanale boulangeries you obviously do to - the average French person does not but goes to their local boulangerie and gets basic French bread, which is fairly simple to make.

I'll take my French friend's take on French things over an American who thinks they know more about France and the French than the French themselves.

To say that supermarkets like Carrefour makes bad bread shows you really know little of what you talk - have you ever had bread fresh from Carrefour - I seriously doubt that or you would not say it is 'bad bread' - it is no worse than the local boulangerie by my friend's house she says - but she is French what does she know about French bread?

I live a couple of miles from the original St. Louis (or "Bread Co" as we call it)/Panera, visited it several times, and remember how great it was to have a coffeehouse/bakery where you could get good sandwiches and soup, do paperwork in relative peace. It was groundbreaking around here in the good bread dept, pleasant music, consistently decent lunches. We stop at the one in Rolla MO and the Cedar Rapids IA one on long drives, but otherwise seldom nowadays.

So it's fun to see your friend's take on it, Pal.

Just returning from Paris, and having twice used the Paul at r.d. Buci and r.d. Seine as a meeting place, I now wish I'd gotten a baguette there for comparison. We thought of the Paul chain as roughly analogous to Panera, but on another plane in my opinion. Their six grain loaf was wonderful.

<<To say that supermarkets like Carrefour makes bad bread shows you really know little of what you talk>>

HAHAHA!

the average French person does not but goes to their local boulangerie and gets basic French bread, which is fairly simple to make.

The local boulangeries are very often artisanales, at least in smaller towns and villages. The bread is better, even if the ingredients are flour (I have not seen any bread with flower), salt and water. That is the only way they can compete against the mass production found in supermarkets. The same thing is true of butchers who often have their own suppliers of local meat--at a higher price than the supermarket.

I have seen to bakery at Carrefour and they make it just like the local boulangerie near her house - in fact that small boulanderie brings in baguettes already made and just bakes them as I believe many small boulangeries do.

Again I'll take her word - a French person who has eaten French bread all her life that Carrefour breads are on a par or better than her local boulangerie - she says that the quality of breads in man boulangeries is not always that good.

Again we are not talking about the artisinale bakeries but the regular mom and pop boulaneries, which I often seen bring in baguettes already made and just heat them - is that not true of many of these?

Any bakery in France, especially Paris, has good to great everything. Maybe Panera is tasty but the French do know how to bake and make wonderful pastries.
Most of all the setting in which it is eaten makes French breads better IMO.

Most of all the setting in which it is eaten makes French breads better IMO.>

ah yes and this I believe is why folks think any ole baguette from any ole boulangerie is the best - you could take a baguette from one of my local independent supermarkets known for its baked goods and switch it in a French bakery and most folks above who insist French bread is always great would smack their lips and say 'ah that is so so good'.

anyway by French friend was emphatic that not nearly all boulangeries have good bread in France - I do think it is a myth that all boulangeries have great bread - good bread but not always made from scratch - the one thing important to French is to have fresh bread - nothing a day old and that may also make a difference there than here where bread may be sitting out all day and into the next.

we are not talking about the artisinale bakeries but the regular mom and pop boulaneries

At least in the Périgord, the local boulangeries are often artisanale; that's the case in Thiviers (on market day, look to see which boulangerie has the long lines on the main square, and only two stores separate the two boulangeries), Excideuil, Thenon, Saint-Geniès, to name only those with which I am familiar. Standard bread is usually available in our local Carrefour Market and the local épicerie which acts as a bread dépot. I'm less familiar with Paris boulangeries, but in at least two neighborhoods (one in the 15th and the other in the 12th) the boulangerie artisanale, and sometimes bio is quite common.

The Panera in downtown Chicago poisoned me a year ago. Screwed up a day getting it out of my system.

The best French bakery I have found in the USA is C'est Si Bon on Riverside Ave. near PCH in Newport Beach, CA. A young neighbor, originally from Switzerland, worked there and would regularly drop a sack of leftovers at my doorstep in the evening. They only sell fresh goods.

Having lived in Paris I learned that there are good and there are better bakeries. Shop around until you find your heaven.

Hey Pal,

>No Ira she is my ex-wife and BELIEVE me she does not say things just to say something nice...<

She has done this to drive you mad.

See "Gaslight".

Orleans where she lives is an ordinary French town - there are some artisinale bakers but only in the town center - though chains like Port Au Pain (not sure of name) are popping up and I think probably have as good or better bread than the mom and pop bakeries - Orleans is not the Perigord or Dordogne where there are lots of rich foreign residents - yes anyone owning a place in this area is wealthy - no debating that unless they live in a camping car in a camping - and yes thus bakeries cater to this crowd with money who would automatically patronize the bakeries with the finest 'traditionnel' ingredients and even Bio, which my ex-wife also buys from a Bio place by her house - that is very very expensive bread.

But I maintain that the average baguette in average France eaten by average French and not wealthy foreigners is not rocket science and is rather pedestrian.

yes anyone owning a place in this area is wealthy

This is an outrageous generalization, especially when it applies to the local population which is the one keeping the boulangeries in business. The foreigners in the town where we shop tend to shop at the supermarket rather than the local small stores.

HAHAHA! Pal, you and your "French" friends are hilarious.They don't speak the language, don't know about bread, and seem to be clueless about most everything.

This is an outrageous generalization, especially when it applies to the local population which is the one keeping the boulangeries in business>

Well I was referring to the foreigners who own properties not the locals who are they subservient servants and I bet most of them go to a traditional boulangerie and buy the cheapest bread - perhaps from Carrefour or Pat Au Pain. Point being that this area Dordogne and Perigord are not representative of France in general - long a haven of wealthy Brits and local shops yes cater to this well-heeled crowd - and nothing wrong with that.

Moi think St Cirq has never ever bought any bread in a place like Carrefour - that is a sure bet so how can he/she comment on that bread - well I cannot imagine he/she buying bread at a hypermarche. Of course she/he knows more about France and speaks better French than my French friends and relatives! Sure!

Actually many wealthy French from places like Paris also own second homes in the Dordogne-Perigord region and these wealthy types added to the many foreign rich folk who flock here makes this area very different from most of France IME.

Old villages here that were once basically de-populated have largely been taken over by wealthy Parisians or foreigners and yes the bread that common French folks like in Orleans queue to get fresh probably would not pass muster with this crowd, seeking something more artisinale and never ever dare buying any bread from say Carrefour.

So my mistake in saying it is only rich foreigners who are making this area something far different from most of France, it is the well-heeled French themselves - and Gites also add to this - old houses in villages rented out to city dwellers by the week or more.

No wonder people who spend most of their time here have a skewed view of what most of France and most French do!

I do not disagree that many if not most locals may be eating the ordinary nothing-special bread. One person in our village buys the bread from the truck that comes by twice a week, and it is industrial bread. He does not like fresh bread, so he then places the loaves he purchased on the window sill to dry them out.

But the fact is that the boulangeries have to cater to the permanent population to stay alive, and I'm pretty sure that they do not stop production of the pain à l'ancienne or pain forestier or whatever specialty they produce once the vacation season is over. The sole boulangerie of St. Robert (Corrèze)is artisanale, as is the one in Saint-Geniès, and I doubt that they reduce their quality once the high season is over.

Seems logical - the main point is that this area of France is about as representative of France as a whole as Hyannis or Cape Cod is of the United States.

Jan 16, 1:30 p.m., PalenQ wrote:

“in fact that small boulanderie [sic] brings in baguettes already made and just bakes them as I believe many small boulangeries do.”

This could present a problem for them. According to the “décret pain” of 13 September 1993, the designations “boulanger” and “boulangerie” are reserved for professional artisans who are responsible for choosing the ingredients, kneading the dough, supervising the rising,formin the loaves and cooking the bread ON SITE. None of the ingredients may, at any time, be frozen. If these standards are not met, the merchant [not a boulanger] must post the term “dépôt de pain(s)”


So, if they are doing as you say, they are not boulangeries, but dépôts de pain.

Ok depots de pain - I was ignorant of the difference - yes it is, by my house where I stay a very small store that sells newspapers, cars, etc. and I do believe they say "depot de pain".

Merci for that info and nuances between bread outlets!

De rien, Pal.

"anyway by French friend was emphatic that not nearly all boulangeries have good bread in France"

This is correct. And Carrefour and other supermarkets often sell very good quality bread.

the main point is that this area of France is about as representative of France as a whole as Hyannis or Cape Cod is of the United States.

And my point is that almost any town has a bakery that makes decent bread even if the majority of the population is satisfied with the run-of-the-mill variety.

And my point is that almost any town has a bakery that makes decent bread even if the majority of the population is satisfied with the run-of-the-mill variety.>

I find that a rather haughty take actually - saying that the majority of French are satisfied with 'run of the mill' bread - well that is their daily bread and has been for eons - I think the average French person would take issue with your characterization of them as being satisfied with 'run of the mill bread' - which they find perfectly decent.

And St Cirq - yes supermarkets can have very good bread- see Pvoyageuse's comment above above that along with those of my French friends and relatives - real French persons not some foreigner who haughtily thinks they know more about the French than the French themselves - why not go to a Carrefour and try the bread before saying bread in supermarkets is garbage - you obviously do not know of which you speak in this regard. Go try some fresh-baked Carrefour breads - my local one even has your desired artisinale breads too.

Go try some fresh-baked Carrefour breads - my local one even has your desired artisinale breads too.

There's a Carrefour in Roscommon, MI?

Naw the local one means by the house where I often stay a few weeks each year in Saran, France and where I once stayed several months each year. They have darn good breads make right on the premises and locals think it is just dandy - indeed part of the reason local boulangeries have been closing up - along with the likes of Pat Au Pain - the chain boulangerie next to the Carrefour - folks like to drive in and pick up bread rather than walking to their local boulangerie where parking is tough.

Things are changing in France bread wise though some faux French may not realize it.

I gather that your locals are close enough to a grande surface to shop there more than once a week. My experience is with towns and villages which are at least 30 km. from a grande surface, which rules out getting the daily bread from there.

Yuo the Carrefour is a 10-minute walk from her (my ex-wife who is my good friend and mother of my son - she visited here for Xmas and said the things I quote in this thread about Panera's, etc) and an L'Elerc (?) is not much farther - she said the Leclerc also has good bread - meaning acceptable like from any boulangerie - I am not saying all hypermarches (grandes surfaces) have fresh bread baked on the premises as any boulangerie does but these two do and I assume their many brances all over France do as well - that will surprise some folks who never though of hypermarches having good bread!

But me I do not know - I am just the messenger mouthing what she, a typical (authentic) French person IMO, claims to be true.