Palenque's Scenic Swiss Trains

Anxiously waiting, Bob! I also think the Bernina Express is the most spectacular train ride in Switzerland and I plan to add my 2 cents to your article.

Also anxiously awaiting!

We took the Bernina Express from Chur to Tirano and back in October 2004, and it was indeed an unforgettable experience.

Byrd

Ingo and Byrd: Thanks for you expressions of interests and i hope you join in at any place to add comments!

THE BERNINA PASS TRAIN ROUTE
One of Europe's most overtly scenic mountain railways, and a great way to travel between Switzerland and Italy to boot, the 38-mile narrow-gauge line over the Bernina Pass between Tirano, Italy and St. Mortiz is one of the world's steepest railways, climbing nearly 6,000 feet with gradients of up to 7%. The highest in altitude of all European alpine rail crossings is also the rare one not tunneling under the Alps, but instead the trains on this route boldly climb up and over the Bernina Pass. Though the Glacier Express gets all the ink when talking about scenic Swiss trains, its scenery can't touch the Bernina Pass line in top-of-the-world scenery.
The Bernina Pass route has been around since medieval days, and today's sinuous 38-mile road between Tirano and St. Moritz roughly following the rail line was built between 1842 and 1865. (The road is often blocked by snow from October to May, but the rail line is kept open all year with herculean efforts and a cavalcade of snowsheds.) Part of the Rhaetian Railway's 93-mile-long Tirano-Chur line, the rail journey, starting from Italy, begins in Tirano (alt 1,407 ft), and soon plows into the Swiss canton of Graubunden (Grisons in French), where it begins a steady climb through cute Italianesque villages and the Mediterranean climate scenery of the Poschiavo Valley. At Brusio, an engineering highlight has the train rising steeply by traversing a tall spiral viaduct where the tracks loop under themselves (a photo often gracing Swiss rail brochures). The line then skirts Lake Poschiavo en route to Le Prese, a popular thermal resort, and Poschiavo (pop 3,600; alt 3,343 ft), the valley's pleasant main town. After Poschiavo, the train slowly glides up the line's steepest part, wheels squealing over a perpetually curving track until reaching the treeline around Alp Grum (alt 6,860 ft), and suddenly the barren and boulder-strewn landscape reminds one more of the lunar surface than the Swiss Alps. Alp Grum is famed for its sun terrace offering giddy perspectives over the nearby Palu Glacier and down into the Poschiavo Valley. (Sun terraces, with outdoor cafes and ecstatic panoramic views, are ubiquitous at celebrated Swiss lookout points.)
Next, the train crests over the desolate Bernina Pass (alt 7,392 ft), featuring a circular vista of an awe-inspiring amphitheater of ice-clad glacier-dripping peaks, the highest of which is Piz Bernina (alt 13,284 ft). The Ospizio Bernina rail station hovers over Lago Blanco, a mirror-like lake whose waters often bewitchingly reflect a parade of ice-bound peaks. (A popular 1.5-hour walk goes between train stations at Alp Grum and Ospizio Bernina.)
From the Bernina Diavolezza rail station, a nearly two-mile-long cableway climbs almost 3,000 feet in 10 minutes to the celebrated Diacolezza Hut (alt 9,754 ft), the gateway to one of Europe's outstanding ski area, renowned for its glacier and summer skiing, with a hotel, restaurant, sun terrace and fab close-up views of the awesome sea of ice and detritus of the glowering Pers Glacier. You can also walk to the hut on footpaths, or hike from it to higher locales. At Montebello, one of the line's most exciting vistas unfolds - that of the immense meancing Morteratsch Glacier, seemingly cascading down almost to the tracks. Paths from the nearby Morteratsch rail station go to the glacier's tip (45 min) and to the famous Chunetta Overlook (35 min, alt 6,832 ft), for a panorama of the glacier and a stunning panoply of solemn mighty peaks. The train then rolls through Pontresina to the world-famous spiffy resort of St. Moritz (alt 6,089 ft).
TO BE CONTINUED - NEXT ST. MORITZ TO CHUR PORTION

ST MORITZ-CHUR
Just after Pontresina, a popular resort in its own right, the line splits, with some trains bypassing St. Moritz, re-joining the line at nearby Samedan, soon after which it burrows under the Albula Pass, via the seven-mile-long Albula Tunnel, one of the Alps' highest underground crossings (alt 5,971 ft). The highlight between St. Moritz and Chur comes after the tunnel, between the towns of Preda and Bergun, when the train makes like a pig's tail and amazingly curlicues under itself, both in and out of five loop tunnels, two normal tunnels, eight viaducts and two galleries wile staggering down the Albula Valley and plunging 1,365 feet in but 8 miles to Filisur. thusis and Reichenau-Tamins, from where it follow the Rhine Valley to Chur (alt 1,919 ft), located on the Swiss Federal Railways with fast trains to all of Switzerland. Interestingly, at Samedan and Thusis, road vehicles roll on and off trains shuttling them through the Albula Tunnel.
The Glacier Express traverses the St. Moritz to Reichenau-Tamins section, from where it heads west, away from Chur towards Zermatt.
The whole route described so far is valid with Eurailpasses valid in Switzerland and Swiss Passes.

NEXT: THE BERNINA EXPRESS, a special tourist train.

I love trains, and one of my sons said he wouldn't mind to go with me on a train tour. So please keep posting!

Having traveled over the Brünig Pass by both car and train in both directions several times, I would rank it at the bottom of the list.

We drove down it again last summer, and it was a ho hum kind of thing.

Well the Bernina Pass is not the Brunig Pass, which lies much further south and, i agree, is not nearly so dramatic.

THE BERNINA EXPRESS
Though regular trains go about hourly between Chur and St Moritz and St Moritz and Tirano, and there are also the trains of the glitzy Bernina Express that also ply the Tirano-St.Moritz/Chur route. Though the word express is a misnomer for these tourist-oriented trains, they do stop less, however, and offer bar and snack facilities, fancier doilies on seat backs and snippets of commentary. Bernina Express trains, which have first- and second-class cars, but only in first class do you get the famous glass-domed observation cars. The scenery, of course is the same with either normal trains or the Bernina Express ones. Bernina Express trains require reservations, which can be made at any rail station in Switzerland or in US thru RailEurope (i recommend Swiss rail experts BETS for reservations: 800-441-2387). The Bernina Express trains can often be full as they carry numerous tour groups so reserve as early as possible in Switzerland or US. Can be booked up to two months in advance. but keep in mind that frequent regular trains, on most of which reservations are not even possible, are rarely full; and if they are you can still jump aboard. Folks who don't cotton to trains packed with foreign tourists can hop these regular trains where, especially in first class, cars are likely to be half empty; second class, however, can be fairly full with Swiss hikers or skiers. (Recently I was there only person in first class on a normal train while the Bernina Express trains that passed us were chock full - i could move from side to side for changing views rather than being stuck in a seat on the Bernina Express trains.)
NEXT- THE BERNINA EXPRESS BUS FROM TIRANO TO LUGANO

Love the info, but please insert more paragraphs to make them easier to read.

Bob, there is not much to add! Thanks for the wonderful article.

I think it is worth to mention that there is another option for the hike from Ospizio Bernina to Alp Grüm in spite of the direct path: a short detour via Sassal Masone. This little restaurant sits a bit higher and more west towards the glacier than Alp Grüm and allows the best views in the area. The advantage is you can see the railroad winding down from Ospizio Bernina to Alp Grüm and further down to Cavaglia (which you cannot see as good from Alp Grüm).

A little correction: you cannot see Piz Bernina from the Bernina Pass. The glaciers hanging over Lago Bianco are those of Piz Cambrena and Piz Caral. Not that these are not spectacular ...

Maybe I overlooked it, but it seems to me you did not mention the Landwasser viaduct between Filisur and Tiefencastel. Another fascinating highlight of the Albular route!

Please keep it coming!

Jean - thanks for the paragraph suggestion!
Ingo - thanks for the corrections, sincerely thanks and for the additional info - that's what's so great about Fodor's - others adding in things to make a more complete picture. As for the Landwasser Viaduct i'm chagrined to explain why i left that amazing piece of railroad architecture out - it's very famous and also often pictured on Swiss train brochures. Thanks so much.
Also i forgot to mention that in summer on the regular trains going over the Bernina Route there are open-air cars you can sit in - just a few foot railing around the car - like a platform moving through such delightful scenery - beats the ballyhooed domed observations cars and i think are second class only and not reservable. They are not on all trains but i did ride in them on two different occasions.

flagging

This is so much fun to read..and now I know we must go back and take the walk to Alp Grum!

Waiting for more.

Byrd

Oh yes, I forgot about these open-air cars! I did ride them, too, on several occasions. You are correct, Bob, they are 2nd class and not reservable. It's a fantastic experience. But be prepared that it can be quite chilly in these cars ... and the noise of the brakes when descending from Alp Grüm to Poschiavo is not music in everyone's ears.

These open-air cars are attached to the local and regional trains between St. Moritz and Poschiavo - they do not go further down to Tirano - and as you said in summer (July/August) only.

THE BERNINA EXPRESS BUS
From May through October some Bernina Expresses hook up with the Bernina Express Bus going to and from Lugano (75 mi; 3 hr), flying down the cute Valtellina Valley to Lake Como and then over to Lake Lugano, gliding along the shore of these pretty lakes.
Though Swiss and Eurailpasses cover both the Bernina Express train and bus fares, a reservation fee of $16 is required for the bus (less in Switzerland; $16 is thru Raileurope in US); Bernina Express train reservation is $12 in US - bit less in Switzerland. (Again i recommend BETS - 800-441-2387 for these reservations if not wishing to wait to Switzerland - as said groups at times book these trains and buses up but if you're flexible shouldn't have too much trouble getting one a few days ahead.
There is another bus that ties in with the Bernina Pass route at St. Moritz that goes via Chiavenna, the Palm Express that will be covered farther on in another posting - it's a 4 hour bus ride up a lovely valley just before St. Moritz.
THE HEIDI EXPRESS
The Heidi Express begins in Landquart and goes via Davos to Tirano, over the route of the Bernina Express but extended to Davos. Reservations are required as on the Bernina Express.
Tips
Don't forget if you get to Switzerland and can't get on the official Bernina, Heidi Expresses, regular trains run the same routes about every hour and on these you cannot even make reservations.
From Tirano there is also rail service to Milan that skirts Lake Como (Varenna) from where you can catch lake boats.
For the best views on the Bernina Pass portion sit on the left side when going to St Moritz and the right side when coming from St. Moritz.
In Tirano there are two stations - a Swiss one of the Rhaetian Railways and an Italian one just across the square. You pass thru customs coming out of the Swiss station (for the time being - Switzerland has decided to join the EU in terms of borders and will no longer do regular customs in a few years) but for now have you passport ready.

Get current official Bernina Express schedules from the Rhätische Bahn's web site:
www.rhb.ch/berninaexpress/berninaexpress

the site contains an elevation chart of all the stations and also gives prices for all segments in Swiss francs and euros.

Bob,
I've been interested in the Bernina Express trip for some time now...haven't put it together yet. You mentioned that some buses connect for a 3 hour trip to Lugano. Could you expand on that, please? The "some" buses part and...once you arrive in Lugano, what is that like and how do you, then, continue your vacation. Thanks for the details...

Well there is one bus daily called the Bernina Express bus i believe that links Tirano, Italy, terminus of the Bernina Pass line, to Lugano, Switzerland. It should leave daily at 14:25 from the Tirano station (Italian station, across the square from the Swiss Bernina station). It's run in conjunction with one of the official Bernina Express trains so makes a thru routing St Mortiz-Lugano. Details: call (081) 8440121 (in Poschiavo, Switzerland) - don't dial first zero from inside Switzerland. The bus is valid with a Swiss Pass but charges a significant reservation fee of about $15 i think with passes. Reservations are required (can be made thru BETS-800-441-2387 who i recommend for any Swiss travel product) - of course can ride without a Swiss Pass by paying normal fare.

Thanks for the great info - we have been wanting to ride the Bernina Express for a long time - bookmarking for a future trip!

t

Bob, please finish this post, its so informative.

Tagging for future reference. would love to hear more if PalenqueBob is still around!!

After taking a hiatus during the winter months to refurbish its rolling stock the Glacier Express is up and running again. The train, proclaiming itself as the world's slowest express train, now has, on some services, spanking new Premium first and second class cars will dome ceilings - meals are now served at your seat, eliminating the previous need to reserve a place in the dining car, which often was impossible on short notice.

More details on the new "Glacier Express Premium" service featuring:
New luxury panoramic cars in both first and second class
In-seat catering of meals and drinks
Headphones for info and commentary in 6 languages
the Premium Service is currently only on trains #904 and 908 from Zermatt to St Moritz and #907 and 911 from St Moritz to Zermatt.

THE PALM EXPRESS BUS: LUGANO-ST MORITZ
A great way to tie in with the Bernina Pass rail route is to take the Palm Express Swiss postal bus that links Lugano to St Moritz, where the Bernina Pass route begins its southward spiral to Italy.
One of the finest of the fabled Swiss postal bus rides, this one is dubbed the Palm Express because it links Lugano and the palm-fringed Swiss Riviera to St. Moritz.
From LUGANO the bus rolls along the shores of idyllic LAKE LUGANO, passing thru the ancient lake town of GANDRIA. Then, entering Italy (customs checks involve Italian officials coming on the bus and spot checking documents - in 2007 Switzerland is scheduled to abandon border checks as it joins the Schengen Accords i believe) the bus goes overland to LAKE COMO, stopping for a coffee/WC break at cute MENAGGIO, one the Lake Como's marquee resorts, before hugging the lake until leaving it to traverse a wide valley to CHIAVENNA, alovely bustling regional town where the bus often makes another short pit stop. Then the bus re-enters Switzerland, plying the lush BREGAGLIA VALLEY until it starts seriously climbing via a series of incredibly sharp hairpin turns that the bus somehow impossibly barely navigates, during which the driver's hand is constantly on the loud oompah-like sounding horn to alert oncoming traffic. It finally corkscrews up the famous and gorgeous MAJOLA PASS (alt 5,955 ft), entering the Upper Engadine, where the scenery is suddenly one of a typical Alpine wonderland. After the village of MAJOLA, one of Switzerland's hiking meccas and a thriving spa and resort, the road passes a string of pristine lakes to St. Moritz (alt 1775 m).
PALM EXPRESS ITINERARY PLANNING
The Palm Express route poses some intriguing itineraries:
From Interlaken area - take mainline trains to Brig and via the Simplon Tunnel to Domodossola, Italy and then hop the Centovalli train (another neat mountain railway to be covered later) thru a part of Italy to Locarno, Switzerland and then train to Lugano - and then another day take the Palm Express to St. Moritz.
From Milan - take train to Lugano and then bus to St. Moritz.
SWISS PASSES - Swiss Passes are valid on the Palm Express the whole route even though it plies a bit of Italy - but reservations are required and they cost several bucks. I'll try to get current info on this in future postings. I made bus reservations at the Lugano train station, where friendly staffers called the bus company to reserve. Swiss Flexipasses would get 50% off the bus if not using a 100% covered travel day.
Swiss Passes and Swiss Cards and Swiss Half-Fare Cards also cover in full the Centovalli train line even though it goes largely thru Italy - considered a Swiss train for these purposes.

bookmarking for my next Swiss trip!

> The Centovalli Line

This often overlooked route was one of the highlights of our 2002 trip to Switzerland. We just took a regular scheduled railcar service starting from Locanao and did the through trip to Domodossola, then returned.

Its a different experience from the the "Express" routes, both in terms of the scenery and the overall journey.

Cheers,

Bill

PalQ,
Glad you are continuing this thread and I can't wait to hear about the Centovalli - it is on our list to do next year.

Maudie

thanks Maudie - Bill i agree with you that the Centovalli is often overlooked - may not have the dramatic glaciers, etc. but certainly is a sweet ride a neat part of Italy and Italian Switzerland.
THE CENTOVALLI LINE
One of Switzerland's less heralded but most unusual rail lines, the Centovalli Railway runs between Domodossola, Italy and Locarno, Switzerland, going up one pretty Alpine valley to crest over a gentle pass and the track down another. Scenery, though not nearly as exotic or dramatic as on the Bernina Pass route, is still magnificent - gorges, mountains in the distance, Mediterranean vegetation and cute Italian villages punctuated by slender Italian-style church towers.
The Centovalli is not a tourist train full of camera-clicking foreigners like the Glacier or Bernina Expresses but is used mainly by locals; for tourists, however, it provides a delightful offbeat but utilitarian link between the Bern-Brig-Simplon-Milan mainline rail route and the Locarno and Lugano "Swiss Riveria" area.
From DOMODOSSOLA the narrow-gauge few car tram-like Centovalli Railway chugs 33 miles through first the VILGEZZO VALLEY in Italy and then the CENTOVALLI ("Hundred Valleys" because of its plethora of side valleys) in Switzerland on its way to its Locarno terminus.
CENTOVALLI NITTY-GRITTY
FART (Ferrovie Autolinee Regionali Ticinesi) trains blow about hourly between Domodossola and Locarno, taking about 1.75 hours.
Though it runs thru Italy the whole route is valid with Swiss Passes as well as Eurailpasses valid in Switzerland.

For current schedules and reservation fees (SF20) or about $16 for the Palm Express bus with a pass as well as details on many scenic Swiss trains and buses visit the following web site of the Swiss Travel System, which i believe is a government site just giving objective information. Tons of info on traveling in Switzerland by bus, train, boat, etc.

Palm Express: Swisstravelsystem, Swiss Travel System, Swiss ...Discover Switzerland by train, bus and boat. The highlight of any Swiss trip is a ride along one of our many ... Palm Express Route: St. Moritz – Lugano ...
www.swisstravelsystem.ch/Palm_Express

THE GOTTHARD MAIN LINE
The Gotthard main line, linking Lucern or Zurich with Lugano and the Swiss Riviera, a part of a major transalpine rail route linking Germany to Italy via Switzerland, is by any reckoning one of Europe's most dramatically scenic main rail routes.

From Zurich or Lucerne, rail lines from these cities merge at Arth-Goldau, from where the line heads south towards the Gotthard Tunnel.

After Arth-Goldau the line skirts idyllic Lake Lucerne, girdled on all sides by Alps, before steadily ascending a pretty valley to Goschenen, where it enters the 9.3-mile-long Gotthard Tunnel, burrowing under the St. Gotthard Pass to emerge in Switzerland's Italian-speaking Ticino region at Airolo. (At Goschenen a side line shuttles steeply up to Andermatt, on the Glacier Express route to Brig, Chur and St Moritz.)

A highlight of the Gotthard line to me is at Wassen, just before Goschenen, where the tracks weave like a drunken sailor and do two incredible loops inside the mountain, baffling passengers and causing their heads to spin with a deja vu experience as they pass Wassen three times! You first pass the tiny village puncutated by its slender white church spire, at ground level going south...a few minutes later, higher up the mountain after the train does a loop inside the mountain, the train passes Wassen and its church again, at a higher level, but this time heading north! Then after another loop inside the rocks, the train emerges even higher above Wassen and its church, by now lying far below, as the train once again heads south, finally leaving Wassen and its church a mere memory.

After the Gotthard Tunnel not only does the language change but so does the scenery and architecture, now all of a sudden Italian looking, even though the traditional Swiss efficiency and tidiness still holds sway. (Wood in woodpiles is still impeccably cut to the exact same lengths!)

Now as the train rushes down the Ticino Valley, the line does another sleight of hand as it makes four complete loops inside tunnels, further disorienting passengers' sence of direction before it reaches Lugano and the Swiss Riviera. After Lugano, tracks hug the shores of gorgeous Lake Lugano to Italy, skirting Lake Como and going thru Como to emerge in the huge industrial and smoggy area surrounding Milan, before reaching the Milan Central station.

Unlike some of Switzerland's Alpine rail lines, the Gotthard trains don't poke along, but, rather with the aid of some of the world's most powerful locomotives, barrels up miles-long inclines at 50 mph.

Still reading with great interest PalQ.

Maudie

Hi PalQ: I live near Arth-Goldau and use the Gotthard line quite often.

Just a minor detail: after Arth-Goldau, (which lies at the foot of the Rigi) you pass by Lauerzersee, go through Seewen and Brunnen (where one can see the Mythen and Stoos) and then finally go along the Vierwaldstättersee.

I love your tidbit about Wassen. Seeing three different views of the church is a nice fact that the Swiss like to talk about, too.

Maudie - thanks for your compliment! Schuler - thanks for your details that i was hazy on - in Brunnen you refer to "where one can see the Mythen and Stoos" - i'm not familiar with what this means?? thanks in advance for clearing up.
Yes i've always thought in the several times i've ridden past the Weissenkirche what a novel thing that was and a pity that most tourists don't realize it perhaps.

Bob,

Thank you for continuing this.

Our "to-ride" list is growing!

Byrd

Hi PalQ:

Here's a website showing the three faces of the church as seen by train.
http://www.wassen.ch/

Here's a website that shows different views from the Swiss Knife Valley, or Schwyz Valley. If you go to the Panoramakarte, you'll see the different areas named. Click on Bergen, and you'll find Stoos and the Kleine und Grosse Mythen.

The Mythen is a beautiful mountain, shaped a bit like the Matterhorn as seen from Schwyz. Stoos is above Brunnen and a great ski resort.

http://flash.swissknifevalley.ch/

Merci Schuler! I love the pix of the Weissen Church. And the info on the famous peaks - if i ever revise this i'll add these fine sights.
Maybe you can answer a question for me about the Alps Transit project or whatever it's called where on both the Lotschberg and Gotthard Alpine routes they are now constructing long long tunnels that apparently will burrow under much of the stunning scenery currently on these two routes.
I pretty much know the Lotschberg tunnels having gone along that route recently several times but on the Gotthard route i assume the new tunnels will start before Weissen and thus the church or village will no longer been seen on the main north-south Gotthard route. I'll have to get my detailed Kimberly & Frey Swiss Rail map out and see where i think it may go - it's an old map so won't have the new construction on it. Thanks for any insights.
I'm sure the old rail lines will continue with local service but passengers transiting the area will of course want to take the faster route and thus lose out on a lot of fine views.
Note: this map is sold at Swiss Train station counters and is huge scale with good reliefs - a great fun thing to have along on any Swiss train ride.

Scenic Swiss Trains: Request For Information (Please!)

I had the very good fortune to actually win a 8-day trip to Switzerland by entering “The 100 Years of Swiss Presence in Toronto” contest, sponsored by the Swiss Consulate!

Due to unavailability of the return airfare on the date we were supposed depart Switzerland, we will stay an additional night, at our expense (no complaints here!) so it's actually 9 Days/8 Nights. The trip my husband and I will take includes airfare, via Swiss International Airlines (business class) from Montreal, to Zurich, accommodation at Best Western hotels and Swiss passes (first-class) on Switzerland Public Transportation.

We’ve never been to Switzerland or Europe before.

Although I have read the thread generously posted by PalenqueBob,

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threadselect.jsp?screen_name=PalenqueBob&fid=2

with additional information kindly provided by others, I’ve been reading so much written information and Internet postings over the last few weeks; I’m simply over whelmed.

What transportation routes would you suggest? We are more than willing to pay for tourist excursion upgrades, if they are warranted.

Our October 2006, itinerary is as follows:

Zurich to Lugano
- 2 nights, Best Western Hotel Du Lac (Oct. 3rd & 4th)

Lugano to Zermatt
- 2 nights, Best Western Hotel Butterfly (Oct 5th & 6th)

Zermatt to Grindelwald
- 2 nights, Best Western Hotel Derby (Oct. 7th & 8th)

Note: I tried to book Wengen, but the hotel closes for the season a few days before our arrival in the area.

Grindlewald to Zurich
- 2 nights, Best Western Hotel Glodenhof (Oct. 9th & 10th)
- Including perhaps, a day-trip to Lucerne.

Any pertinent feedback would be very much appreciated.

Ah yes, the NEAT. I don't know much about it even though we often hear tidbits concerning a breakthrough between regions or that they are in dire need of more money.

When I was in Sedrun, we saw a huge area squared off for NEAT workers and a hole in the earth that will let Sedrun become one of the stations using the NEAT tunnel. Sedrun is rather difficult to get to and after the opening of NEAT, they are expecting it to become a popular destination where people can live and use the train as transportation to work.

Below are two websites that will offer more info.

http://www.verkehrshaus.ch/en/museum/schienenverkehr/tramsimulator.php

http://www.swissworld.org/eng/swissworld.html?siteSect=208&sid=3979556&rubricId=10080

Palenque Bob: some nice text here. You might want to take a look at hidden europe magazine (www.hiddeneurope.co.uk) which has a good track record on articles about lesser known European trains. Recent features have included a detailed account of the changing pattern of night train services in Europe over twenty years, an account of the train from Kazakhstan to Berlin, a feature on railways in Kosovo, and an essay on the 'real' Orient Express (available online at http://www.hiddeneurope.co.uk/carticle_info.php?articles_id=84).

Hello PalQ,
I was able to find an official site wof the NEAT project in english:
http://www.neat.ch/pages/e/

By the way, yesterday they had the last break through. You can get now from Erstfeld to Biasca. They still have to carve out side niches, widen the tunnel, built supports etc.

Altamiro,

I knew you would come through.

Did you see the photo of the alphorn players in the tunnel to celebrate the break through? Only in Switzerland!

>Did you see the photo of the alphorn players in the tunnel to celebrate the break through? Only in Switzerland!

I thought it was pretty cool
Btw, the trams and buses in Zürich ran with small Swiss, Uri and Ticino flags on the top to celebrate the break-through.

Indeed, only in Switzerland...

altimiro & schuler - thanks a lot for the web links to NEAT - a neat site to explore! while i lament the missing of signature Swiss scenery when in tunnels i'm sure the speed up of freight and passenger trains will benefit the economy and frequent users. Tourists can always take the classic line, which i assume will remain open for local service. I think the plan also is meant to take heavy lorries more and more off roads and onto rails - a great project all in all. Thanks again.

Bitte schön.

This is so useful, thanks!

Thanks, birder.
THE GOSCHENEN-ANDERMATT INCLINE LINE
Talking about the Gotthard rail line from Lucerne/Zurich to Lugano and Italy, at Goschenen, on the Gotthard Line, you can connect to the Glacier Express rail route that runs over the Gotthard line but at a much higher altitude, passing over the Gotthard line while that line is far below it in a tunnel.

The short few-km inclined connector line between the two is a rather weird train. The few-car narrow-gauge train goes much of the way under a snow shed as it climbs to Andermatt, to interchange with Glacier Express route for trains west towards Brig and Zermatt or east to Chur, Davos or St Moritz.

Thus a routing such as Zermatt/Brig via the Glacier Express route then at Andermatt plunging down to the Gotthard line or vice versa to head towards Zurich/Lucerne or Lugano/Italy is easily done. The shuttle train rolls frequently.

NEXT THE WILLIAM TELL EXPRESS

Hi PalQ,
I thought I had myself organised for our train rides around Switzerland but the more I read the more I keeping changing my mind. Now that I have read your latest on the Gotthard line I am not sure how to fit that in!

Would you mind giving me some idea of a good itinerary that we could do in say 8 or 9 days? After that we are looking at about 7 days in Brienz to explore the BO but any suggestions would be great.

I was thinking 2 nights in Pontresina, 3 or 4 in either Morcote or Bellinzona then onto Vevey.

Thanks so much.

I've been thinking of some itineraries but first where do you have to end up - Zurich? If so you could take the Gotthard line back to Zurich from the Lugano area in about 3 hours i think. But if it's Geneva or Milan then it would of course be different and harder to include the line in your journey.
So what airports? Thanks for the nice comment.

Good morning,
We will be using Zurich as our entry and exit points.

At this stage our plans are to travel directly to Pontresina with the hope of walking around Filisur, the Landwasser Viaduct and Alp Grum. Then taking the BE and the BE bus onto Lugano or doing the BE as a day trip (really not sure about that part).

From the Lugano area on the Centovalli to Brig then to Bern possibly, via Spiez and ending up in Vevey. Or the other alternative is to Vevey via Sion and Martigny.

Then on the Golden Pass route to Brienz. Of course this is all open to suggestions. Would the Gotthard Line be a nice day trip to do from Bellinzona? We could then catch the Centovalli train onto Brig the following day. We like to walk and enjoy landscapes and nice scenery, basically just enjoy our surroundings and soak it all up.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated PalQ.

I'm sorry, please accept my apology, PalenqueBob.

I’m new at this and frankly, don’t now my way around these Forums.

I thought I may have offended you by posting my request for information in this location in error because, I didn’t understand the protocol.

Before I posted here, I attempted to e-mail you directly. but was unsuccessful. This appears to be specifically a train travelogue and extremely informative, I might add. I wanted to delete my posting, but couldn’t figure out how to do it, or determine if it was even possible for me to do so?

I’ve subsequently opened another thread called Scenic Rail Trips.

Sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused.

tubclb: Not at all - didn't think anything negative about it.

Our October 2006, itinerary is as follows:

Zurich to Lugano
- 2 nights, Best Western Hotel Du Lac (Oct. 3rd & 4th)

Lugano to Zermatt
- 2 nights, Best Western Hotel Butterfly (Oct 5th & 6th)

Zermatt to Grindelwald
- 2 nights, Best Western Hotel Derby (Oct. 7th & 8th)

Note: I tried to book Wengen, but the hotel closes for the season a few days before our arrival in the area.

Grindlewald to Zurich
- 2 nights, Best Western Hotel Glodenhof (Oct. 9th & 10th)
- Including perhaps, a day-trip to Lucerne.

I think your itinerary is very good and relaxed.
Comments: Lugano-Zermatt - from Lugano hop the train via Bellinzona to Locarno and then roll with the toy-like Centovalli Railway to Domodossola, Italy to rejoin the mainline to Brig via the Simplon Tunnel and at Brig catch the mountain climbing train to Zermatt. Some trains on this route are Glacier Express tourist-oriented trains that usually require reservations but not on the Brig-Zermatt portion is my understanding. Or you may want to take the official Glacier Express trains on this route - reserve them at any Swiss train station anytime - observation 'panoramic' cars can be full and any Glacier Express can be quite full as many tour groups clambor aboard. (Glacier Express trains will not run from mid-Oct to mid-Dec in 2006 for refurbishment work on tracks.)
the Centovalli, though it runs mainly thru Italy from Locarno to Domodossola is 100% covered by a Swiss Pass. But the short stretch Domodossola-Iselle (Swiss railway border point for pass purposes) is not- you should buy this supplemental ticket at Domodossola before boarding the train. Though some conductors may let you slide in this short case others may issue you a ticket on the train if you don't have one for this short part of the train trip on Trenitalia tariffication - if they sell a ticket on board there could be a hefty surcharge for doing.
I think your trip is a wonderful itinerary that needs no retooling

I could recommend staying in Lucerne however - about an hour by train frojm Zurich Airport as this is one of Europe's loveliest cities and your pass is good for boat trips on idyllic Lake Lucerne - one of the prettiest boat trip in Europe IMO. Zurich is a nice enough huge town but Lucerne is so much more romantic.
Achtung! I expect a full report entered on this thread when you return! And the bit about interrupting a train thread - quite the contrary - others may be interested in your itinerary and ensuing opinions from others.
As they say in German, Have a Gut Fahrt! (Good Ride!)

Thank you once again, PalenqueBob!

I will attempt to change plans in order to take your advice and divert from Grindlewald direct to Zurich and go instead to Lucerne, with an overnight in the city with the last day spent in Zurich. On this itinerary, I only have the grace of one night change.

Of course you can expect a detailed trip report!

You and the others Fodor contributors have provided me with valuable information. I won't forget and will share my experiences so that other may learn. Take with gratitude and share with exuberance, is my personal opinion on Internet use.

Sincerely,

tubclb

Maudie:
Seems your basic itinerary is super so i wouldn't change that.
Comments: Doing the Gotthard line as a day trip? Well though it's a most scenic and interesting line i guess i wouldn't spend a day day tripping on it because you'll be traveling on lines more scenic elsewhere and with your hiking desires will find a day daytripping on the BE to be better i believe. The Gotthard line is a great mainline if it serves you utilitarian fashion but i can't quite weave that into your itinerary.

I would do the BE as a day trip - you talk about walking at Alp Grum - that is a stop on the BE run, just over an hour from St Moritz and the highlight of the line - along with the nearby Bernina Ospiz station - here is an pristine Alpine lake to walk around and you can walk to glaciers - a panoply of nice hikes in this area - walk from station to station. As a day trip you'll have no luggage to worry about.

As for the Rhone Valley route from Brig to Vevey as opposed to the Brig-Bern-Lausanne-Vevey route it's a toss-up

Rhone Valley route is quicker - at least that's how the fast Cisalpino trains Geneva-Milan go i believe and the valley is constantly pretty all the way to Lake Geneva - vineyards carpeting much of it.

But the Brig-Spiez route via the BLS line is definitely one of the most scenic mainline rail lines in Europe. It makes a dramatic ascent from Brig along a ledge for several miles, seemingly hovering over the Rhone Valley like an airplane - the fact that you see an airport down below enhanced the flying feeling (sit on the right side of the train when leaving Brig) - and after the Lotschberg Tunnel unfolds the really bucolic Alpine valley around Kandersteg and then by Lake Thun at Spiez and onto Bern - Bern-Lausanne is more ordinary, but like everything in Switzerland very nice - cows everywhere!

Golden Pass route has spiffy new panoramic cars in first class with spiffy swivel seats - it's actually possible to book preferential seats right in the front of the train, looking out the front window so you make like a driver - these have to be booked early (BETS 800-441-2387), my recommend agent for any Swiss Travel Product, tells me they can book these seats but they are only available well in advance of the train as they are limited in number. But any seat on the train will have big windows with great views.
Brienz area - of course the day trip to Lucerne i highly recommend - goes from Brienz to Meiringen, where the train reserves and then up and over the thrilling Brunig Pass - with the aid of cog wheels - the only SBB (Swiss Federal Railways) train to use cogs. Anyway this narrow-gauge train creeps up to the Brunig Pass and then descends towards Lake Lucerne passing a couple of gleaming Alpine lakes en route.

Once in Lucerne you could take the boats on Lake Lucerne with a Swiss Pass and this is perhaps the finest boat ride in Switzerland - a fjord like lake that is ringed by Alps and meadows. Several nice places to get off - at Fluelen you can quickly train back to Lucerne and then Brienz.

Or you could take a boat from Lucerne (right opposite the train station) to Alpnachstad and board the Brunig train there to go back home for the night.

Another possible day trip using the Brunig Line would be to take it part way to Luzerne and then change to the Engleberg mountain train going to, surprise, Englberg, one of the classic Swiss Alpine resorts - high glacier-girdled peaks above town. There is some kind of conveyance, a cable car i think that goes from Englberg up to nearby Mt Titlis, for sweeping 360 degree views of practically all the Swiss Alps.
ps- with your itinerary you should strongly consider at least a 3-day Swiss Flexipass or a consecutive 15-day pass - of course flexipass gives you free travel days and on days not using free travel days 50% off everything else in Switzerland that moves. Half-Fare card for wide ranging travel would mean paying more i believe as you'd get no 100% travel days to do your long trips (Zurich-Pontresina; Pontresina-Lugano-Bellinzona; Bellinzona-Vevey, etc.) But often a consecutive day pass is so much cheaper per day a 15 day carte blanche pass could be better - especially as it then negates the decision factor - is it worth it to me to pay 50% for this? You may ride more. Like when i have a pass if i arrive in Brienz i may just take a boat ride on Lake Brienz just for the float - i may not if i had to pay for it. 2006 Swiss Pass prices: www.budgeteuropetravel.com and they have itinerary suggestions on their site - you should also request their free European Planning & Rail Guide which has a great chapter on Switzerland and Swiss trains, with special details on Bernina Express, etc. Of course i always recommend them for the pass for their Swiss train expertise.

BACK LATER WITH IDEAS ABOUT BRIENZ AREA

Bookmarking

Oh PalQ what great information, sure couldn't get that from a travel book! I really appreciate your time spent answering my questions.
Unfortunately I do not live in the USA so I cannot use BETS or get the booklet you suggest.

I think the Brig - Spiez - Bern section sounds wonderful so we will take that option. If we do the BE as a day trip from Pontresina what do you suggest is the best option for getting to the Lugano area from there?
As a day trip from Brienz - train to Alpnachstad, cog train up to Pilatus down on the cableway to Kriens, bus to Lucerne, ferry back to Alpnachstad and train back to Brienz - would this be just too much for 1 day?

I am looking forward to your Brienz ideas and overwhelmed by your kindness.
Maudie

Bob,
My late husband too a train buff and I am still receiving various literature on world-wide train journeys. It was interesting that I received the website of Railfan Tours to Poland (May 2007), which I know would have appealed to him. I noted the cut off date for bookings, but ..... guess if you /other Fodor readers would be interested, they would accept a booking.

http://www.trainsunlimitedtours.com/steam-in-poland.html

Would be interested in your reaction to the tour.

bookmarking!
Thanks

Maudie - what country are you from - passes may or may not be cheaper there but could be. Anyway you can buy them at any Swiss train station.
Koaljay - thanks for the site, i'll look into it and respond if i can.

I live in Australia and as at todays rate the 15 day consectutive pass 2nd class for 2 people is $854 AUD which is $644 US from Railplus in Melbourne.

BETS home page (www.budgeteuropetravel.com) lists current Swiss Pass prices for 15-day pass saverpass at $274 p.p. or $548 for 2 - Figuring that U.S. prices are about 10-15% lower than in Switzerland it seems the Australian price would approximate what you'd pay at stations in Switzerland.

Why U.S. prices are lower is a mystery as prices here are set by RailEurope i think, which is 30% owned by the Swiss Railways. I'll hve to check www.sbb.ch to see if the discrepency still exists as it did a few months ago and throughout the past few years.

sbb.ch web site keeps throwing me off so i can't check current prices in Switzerland - a rather finicky site in my case and computer to use.

Well I guess we don't have much choice but I think I would be inclined to get the pass here before we go - one less thing to have to worry about and pay for along the way.

Thanks again.

FOR MAUDIE - BRIENZ AREA
Brienz is a great base for some nearby sights:

Lake boats - be sure to hop these to Interlaken - get off at Geissbach Falls stop and either walk or take the antique funicular up to the famous hotel overlooking the lake in a forested surroundings.

Meiringen - a few minutes by train from Brienz - neat little town - Sherlock Holmes Museum in tiny old church - Conan Doyle based some of his adventures here and especially at nearby Reichenbach Falls, a few miles from town - this is where Sherlock Holmes arch-enemy Dr Moriaty (sp?) met his fate by falling into the roaring falls. A funicular goes up to the falls from the valley. The train station at Meiringen is full of action. Rail buffs will salivate at watching the trains from Lucerne via the Brunig Pass and those from Brienz reverse here - unlike most trains in Europe that can go both ways when reversing in dead-end stations, these trains must have their engines uncoupled and reattached - trains from each direction often do this at the same time.

Bus to Grindelwald via Reichenball Falls - one of the finest Swiss postal bus rides, goes up a gorgeous valley via Schwendi (?) - famous for its flocks of cows - thru the boulder-strewn valley to crest over into the Grindelwald amphitheatre at Grosse Scheidegg, from where unfolds an incredible view of the whole Grindelwald/Jungfrau area. Bus ends in Grindelwald and then you can take train down to Interlaken-Ost station and from there back to Brienz - or hop the boat right from the station back to Brienz. You could do this in reverse - boat to Interlaken, train to Grindelwald, bus to Meiringen. (I think this bus however is one of the few not valid with a Swiss Pass.)

I actually once walked from Grindelwald to Grosse Scheidegg and all the way down via Reichenbach Falls to Meiringen - a long arduous hike but one of the most thrilling i've taken in this area. For an easier hike take the bus part way.

BALLENBERG OPEN-AIR MUSEUM
Perched right above Brienz, on a lush meadow overlooking the lake is one of Switzerland's most popular museums - Ballenberg Open-Air Museum to which many old time rural and farm buildings have been relocated to re-create old time Swiss farm life. Lots of demonstrations, etc. Swell setting overlooking the lake. Remember that your Swiss Pass, but only on days of 100% covered travel (must use a day on a flexipass) acts as a museum pass and gives you free entry here too (probably a $15 or so value) - may do the day you use a flexipass to get to Brienz.

BRIENZER ROTHORN BAHN
From Brienz itself a steam train chugs up to the Brienzer Rothorn, a 7.310 foot summit overlooking Brienz and Lake Brienz - super views and there's the ubiquitous mountain top cafe/restaurant up here. Again i hiked up here but the ascent is arduous - can take train part way. (Train not covered in full by Swiss Pass; 50% off - remember on flexipasses for the whole one-month validity period you get 50% off everything - no need to use a day of travel.)

Oh and Meiringen is where the word Meringue comes from - look for this concoction in local shops!

Of course from Brienz you can easily take the train or boat to Interlaken-Ost and then go up to either Grindelwald or Lauterbrunnen - to me one of the greatest day trips is to take the train to Lauterbrunnen, then the postal bus to Stechelberg (or walk the two flat miles here), at the end of the narrow Lauterbrunnen Valley, then one of Europe's most thrilling aerial cable cars straight up the cliff to Gimmmelwald, take a look at this isolated farming village with some of the most stupendous views in the Alps, then either walk or take the aerial cablecar up more to Murren, a swank popular resort (can hop world's longest (?) aerial cableway here to Schilthorn and its famous revolving restaurant out in the middle of ice fields with fantastic views - James Bond film On Her Majesty's Service (? hope i got right one) was in part filmed here - you can walk on the ice. From Murren take the electric train that goes right along the edge of the cliff to Grutschalp and then plunge down to Lauterbrunnen via the new aerial cableway that replaced the antique funciular (due to open in November 2006) so currently you must retrace you route via Stechelberg to do this excursion. The whole route- every component is covered by a Swiss Pass in full (Not Schilthorn cable; 50% off) and would warrant a day of use on a Swiss Pass, especially if coming from Brienz. A FANTASTIC EXCURSION!

BRUNIG PASS ROUTE - As mentioned also from Brienz you can take the Golden Pass rail route via Meiringen over the Brunig Pass to Lucerne, one of Europe's most beautiful cities - the whole Brunig route is tremendously scenic - it's the only Swiss Federal Railways line to use cogs at points that are so steep cogs are needed to help it up and down - it's also a narrow-gauge train line so has a toy-like character. You may want to use a day on a Swiss Pass if in Lucerne you want to take a boat ride on Lake Lucerne - certainly one of the finest lakes around - or if you want to visit the Swiss Transport Museum on the edge of Lucerne - one of world's finest transport museums and free with Swiss Passes on 100% travel days.

ENGLEBERG- Another day trip from Brienz would be taking the Brunig Pass line part way to Lucerne and switch to the Engleberg mountain train that goes to Engleberg, one of Switzerland's most famous Alpine resorts and perched at the foot of glacier-girdled Mt Titlis - a conveyance goes from Engleberg to Mt Titles.

MT PILATUS - Also on the Brunig Pass line to Lucerne is Mt Pilatus, one of Switzerland's famous mountains, both for its looks and sweeping views from the summit. Get off at Alpnachstad and take a thrilling mountain train up to the summit then come down the other side via a long aerial cableway tp Krens, where you can bus the few miles to Lucerne for trains back to Brienz. (Pilatus train and cable 50% off with Swiss Pass.)

THREE PASS BUS EXCRUSION
Another unusual day excursion is the Three Pass postal bus excrusion that begins and ends in Meiringen - going up and over three famous Alpine passes and returning to Meiringen (transferring twice to different buses) - these buses can also be used to take a novel route out of Meiringen - one bus goes to Goschenen, a stop on the Gotthard rail line (north to Lucerne or Zurich; south to Lugano and Italy (Milano)- at Goschenen you can take the short railway up to Andermatt to join the Glacier Express route.

So there is a myriad of fine excursions to do from a Brienz base.

What can I say, you have come through for me again. You should write a book! I hope everyone going to Switzerland reads this thread.

Sounds like Brienz is going to be the perfect base for us to explore all of your wonderful suggestions - we won't be still for a minute.

Again my humble thanks for your time and patience.
Maudie

Maudie - thanks a lot but it's just something i enjoy a lot.

A bit about the Alpine Pass buses - though free with Swiss Passes there is an "Alpine Ticket" required to use these buses, unlike most postal buses which are 100% valid with pass - this ticket for passholders costs SF 10 last time i rode them and i think it's only for buses that go up and over passes.

That's good to know, I will add that to my notes.
I think we will use the "fast baggage" from Pontresina to Lugano and pick it up the next day then we can take the train to Andermatt then onto Morcote or we could try the bus from St Moritz...... oh the decisions!!!! Just too many choices.

And it shows how much you do enjoy helping people - I would nominate you for a Fodor's award if I could.

Maudie - too too kind! More about the buses - i had read reservations were required and went to the post office in Interlaken and they told me no so i just turned up at the Meiringen bus depot, where these buses start, and went to the ticket window and got a ticket. I don't even know if reservations are required or not, but anyone taking these buses should stop by a post office, which runs these buses, thus 'Swiss postal buses' and ask - or in Meiringen go right to the bus station ticket window and ask.
A possible short day trip on these buses would be to take one part way - up to the top of a pass, get off and take another bus back.
Also these buses don't run usually in winter and can be cancelled even in September - i was once planning to take the three passes tour and twice was told that passes were blocked by snow and they were cancelled.

I looked at the three passes tour but it doesn't run while we are there which is a pity but I am sure we won't have any problem filling our days.

Maudie - a rainy day day trip possibility - hop the train to Interlaken Ost and then train to Bern, one of the finest looking cities in Europe in my opinion.

Most of the streets in the shopping area there are covered with arcades, giving it a most unusual look and dry cover in wet weather. If you use a Swiss Pass for 100% coverage day you can also use it to go into the highly acclaimed new museum in Bern - the Paul Klee Museum, acclaimed not only for its art but for the unique building built to house the art.

In Bern there is also the Parliament Building, nice walks along the swist-flowing Aare River and the famous Bear Pit, housing several Bears, the symbol of Bern.

The Bern train station is smack in the middle of town and only about an hour or so from Brienz.

Now that sounds like a good plan, thanks for that.

PalenqueBob,

here is another few scenic trains for your next visit here:
-Appenzeller Bahnen from St.Gallen up into the hills of Appenzell. A very beauiful stretch is actually getting from Altstätten in St Galler Rhine valley up into Appenzell using the cog line (most AB rains can run both on adhesion and cog lines);
-Rorschach - Heiden cog railway: beautiful views to the Lake Constance far below and into the Alpstein massiv
-Trogener Bahn: runs like a tram through St. Gallen, then through the hills and for a quite long stretch along a hill ridge with beautiful views in both directions (Lake Constance and Alpstein). Access to a lot of easy hiking.
In St. Gallen, don't forget to visit the monastery precinct and especially the library - it used to be one of the richest monasteries north of the Alps and it shows. The interesting thing was that most of Kanton St. Gallen is protestant, while the monastery had for a long time a special status of a "state within a state" like Vatikan.

high wall (altamiro?) - thanks a lot for these suggestions as this is one area of Switzerland i have not really explored as to such trains. Appenzell has long been high on my list - the others are news to me and highly appreciated and will be ridden in the future! Thanks for the input that others may benefit from as well.

Maudie - you can and perhaps should consider taking a boat trip on Lake Thun as well - it's a whole different experience as a lake and views of the Jungfrau Massif are much more striking than those on Lake Brienz IMO.
Here i've copied something from an old post:
Author: Bob
Date: 10/08/2001, 02:50 pm
We are staying in Lauterbrunnen next September, and will take the approximately 20-30 minute train ride into Interlaken for a sight seeing trip. I understand your can take cruises on Lake Brinezersee and/or Lake Thunersee. If so, we would like a cruise of a few hours including lunch. Is anyone familar with these cruises and approximately how expensive are they?

Author: Bill
Date: 10/08/2001, 03:35 pm
Don't know of any "few hour" long cruises on Brienzersee (or Thunersee). Both take only an hour for a trip from Interlaken to Brienz (or Thun). Meals are available on many of the more or less hourly sailing schedules on both lakes. Between June and about September 25 there are a couple of steam-operated services daily, including one at lunchtime.

For schedules on Brienzersee use Interlaken Ost BrS as the departure station and Brienz BrS as the arrival station.

On Thunersee use Interlaken West ThS and Thun ThS. If you have a SwissPass the boats trips are included in coverage. 2nd class fare is less than USD20, and less than $30 in first class. On a nice warm day I'd strongly recommend first class, and I believe you can only dine in the restaurant with a first class ticket. Food is unremarkable, but like most all meals in Switzerland, tasty. Meals are not inexpensive, though prices are not much different from the average restaurant in the area.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Author: PalenqueBob
Date: 10/08/2001, 06:19 pm
Not sure which lake is nicer but both are spectacular, but only on a clear day when the backdrop of ice-bound high Alps girdling both lakes is visible. On Lake Thun, boat Interlaken-Thun (actually is a 2-hour cruise) and return from there by train. This boat goes via Spiez, 45 min from Interlaken, a cute town with a romantic hilltop castle ensnared in vineyards; the train station here however is a steep uphill walk; and Merligen, considered to be the cutest lake town, where many folks get off to walk around its inviting lakefront or castle protruding into the water and hop the next boat to Thun. Besides the train, you can also return to Interlaken from Thun via Swiss postal bus (railpasses valid) which hugs the lake's north shore most of the way. Lake Brienz probably has more dramatic scenery, with sheer cliffs and waterfalls on the lake's south side. Interlaken East-Brienz is about 1 h 15 min; the popular stop-off on this lake is at Giessbach See, from where you can take a funicular or hike up a steep trail to the famous Giessbach Falls, before going onto Brienz, a picture-postcard town of wooden chalets known for its woodcarving tradition. From here a steep steam-operated cog train climbs to the Rothorn summit, one of Switzerland's celebrated alpine viewpoints. Train back to Interlaken from Brienz, or train from it to Merlingen, a few minutes away, and visit the Sherlock Holmes Museum and ultra-famous Reichenbach Falls, scene of i think Dr. Moriaty's fatal fall into the falls. And a mile away is the awesome Aare gorge you can walk through on catwalks. There's also the celebrated open-air museum just outside of Brienz, re-creating the rural Swiss of old in a verdant setting ovcerlooking the lake. In any case both lakes present wonderful excursions - plan a whole day and get off the boat en route. If don't have a Eurailpass, Europass, Swisspass etc., which gives free passage on both lakes, fares are reasonable as stated by fellow above.

Author: richard j vicek
Date: 10/08/2001, 09:20 pm
Good evening, Bob
Information can be found on
www.thunersee,ch/
www.brienzersee.ch/
and the Swiss Old village is Ballenberg
reached by a ten min bus trip from the
Brienz station/dock.
For steam running on either lake there
was a 5 SF upcharge per person.
Richard of LaGrange Park,Il..

Author: Ritardo
Date: 10/10/2001, 06:41 pm
Boats about every hour on both lakes in summer - June through late September, scaled down service other times, or none some winter periods, especially on Brienzersee. Need no reservations, in fact don't think it's possible to even book except for nighttime dinner cruises perhaps. From Lauterbrunnen take train to Interlaken East (Ost) station, walk through underground viaduct to boat dock for Brienzersee boats, or walk or hop train one mile to Interlaken West station, where a similar viaduct leads under the tracks to the Thunersee boat dock.

Author: Patrick
Date: 10/10/2001, 09:45 pm
We have taken boats on both lakes (and numerous others) several times. We usually have a Swiss Pass and as mentioned above -- the boats are free with that. Assuming you have a first class pass, you use the top deck of the boat -- much nicer than downstairs. We usually just hop on and off boats going from town to town, and enjoy walking around a hour or two and possibly having lunch on shore before catching the next boat. Palenque Bob's suggestions are all very good ones.

Author: dirk
Date: 10/14/2001, 03:24 pm
We took a cruise on Lake Thun on a warm sunny day and the panorama of glaciers and Alps around the lake was stunning, one of the best things I've done in europe. don't know about Lake Brienz but suppose it's the same. Take the cruise!

Author: davis
Date: 10/14/2001, 03:28 pm
Brienz is a bit smaller, and a bit less surrounded by 'civilization'. Both have gorgeous blue (green?), glacier-fed waters. Don't know that I can think of a glacier that can be seen from either lake. One can, on a clear day, though seen snow-capped peaks.

Author: Russell
Date: 10/16/2001, 12:37 pm
If you decide to "cruise" on the Brienzersee, the boat of choice is the Lotschberg. The area around the Brienzersee is less populated than that surrounding the Thunersee, but it is well worth the trip. Last summer, we stayed in Iseltwald, which is about halfway along on the south side. The village has a marvelous setting and exceptionally pretty harbor. We stayed four nights and could have easily spent a week there as a base for visiting throughout the Oberland. Giessbach falls and the Grandhotel Giessbach are also on the south side and are of interest. Brienz, too, especially the Brienzer Rothorn, which you can reach by a steam-powered train. These are the websites for the Grand Hotel Giessbach and the Brienzer Rothorn Bahn.
http://www.brienz-rothorn-bahn.ch/e.html
http://www.giessbach.ch/default.html
Also, for ideas about these and other possibilities in the area, see
http://www.pilotonline.com/travel/tr0405obe.html
Enjoy.

Thanks again Bob, our week in Brienz will go fast - but we will have to make time to sit on the balcony of our chalet and enjoy the view.

Maudie - that's my number 1 suggestion -be sure to take time to sit on the balcony and get drunk on the surely intoxicating views - a glass of Swiss wine in hand. Again thanks for your nice comments and be sure to report here on your trip when you return! Happy trails toyou.

While talking about Swiss Postal buses, here's a sight with timetable info:

PostBus - Time TableHome Swiss Post. Services. > Extra trips. > PostBus-Shop. Copyright Swiss Post - For more information please contact us. ...

www.postbus.ch/en/index_pag/pag_fahrplan_reservation/pag_fahrplan.htm

Thanks for the PostBus site, that will be handy to have.
Just another question, we are thinking of taking the Palm Express to get from St Moritz to Lugano, on 4th June, do you have any idea how far in advance we would have to book?

Wow! what a great thread...bookmarking!
Great job PalengueBob!

Maudie: i can't answer specifically - when i took the bus i just booked the night before at the Lugano train station - they phoned the post bus reservations for me. My understanding is that they put on more buses as per demand but not sure of that. Maybe the postal bus web site has a number to call you could ask or an e-mail. If you find out please let us know.

I'll check to see if these reservations can be made in the U.S. which means a travel agent down under could do the same.

MORE ABOUT THE THREE PASS POSTAL BUS EXCURSION

You'll find leaflets in the Berner Oberland touting the Three Pass Postal Bus Excursion, and though it's a long day on three different buses, it lets you experience the Alps from high up as the trip takes you over three famous Alpine passes.

From Meiringen (alt 471 m) the Susten Pass bus goes first thru Innertkirchen then thru the Gadmental region and follows a narrow river valley up to the Susten Pass (alt 2224m), where it makes a brief pit stop, before the bus and road descends to Wassen (alt 916 m) and home of the Wassen Church described under the Gotthard train line, en route to Goschenen (a main stop on the Gotthard Pass rail line if you want to head to Zurich/Lucerne or south to Lugano/Italy. Also at Goschenen you can take a shuttle train up to Andermatt (alt 1447 m), a stop on the Glacier Express route towards Brig/Zermatt or east to Davos/St Moritz. This portion of the three pass tour ends at Andermatt so if going there you can also just stay on the bus.
NEXT - FURKA AND GRIMSELPASS

FURKA AND GRIMSEL PASS BUSES
From Andermatt Bahnhof (train station, alt 1447 m) another postal bus goes to Oberwald via the rugged tortuous Furka Pass Road - this is the most sinuous road the Three Pass buses ply - constantly hairpin curving itself up and over the Furka Pass (alt 2431 m) and before plunging down to Oberwald (alt 1386 m), a small town and another train station on the Glacier Express route.

(Along the Furka Pass Road you may well glimpse steam trains plying a portion of the former course of the Glacier Express trains, described before, with the help of altamiro's great info.)

From Oberwald, a third bus takes you back to Meiringen via the Grimsel Pass route. The bus halts for a pit stop just after the actual pass (alt 2185 m) at a large barrage holding back a pristine Alpine lake. The bus actually parks on a cement slab overlooking the lake. From here it's a constant descent back to Meiringen via the Maggia Valley and the Bavona Valley.

Meiringen of course has frequent rail links to Interlaken and via the Brunig Pass to Lucerne.

THREE PASS BUS NITTY-GRITTY
Service is only in the summer, from late June thru late Sep, but in Sep especially the service may be interrupted if passes are blocked by snow. This happened two days in a row one early Sep when i wanted to take the jaunt. Buses run daily in summer.

Schedules - check the PostAuto site referenced above for current schedules, but the following haven't changed much in years:
It seems the whole 3 Pass Route can only be done in counterclockwise fashion, Meiringen-Oberwald-Andermatt-Meiringen
Lv Meiringen 9:15 or 11:10 ar Oberwald 11:05 or 12:50; lv Oberwald 13:35 ar Andermatt 15:19; lv Andermatt 15:40 ar Meiringen 17:50 - buses stop at the train stations in each town.

Part Way Variances
Lv Meiringen 9:10, ar Goschenen 11:05 - transfer to trains on Gotthard line to Zurich/Lucerne or Lugano and Milan. Or stay on bus ar Andermatt 11:20, change to Glacier Express route trains.

Lv Meiringen 9:15 or 11:10, ar Oberwald 11:05 or 12:50 - transfer to trains on Glacier Express route to Brig or Davos, St Moritz. (I did a long but great day trip once by leaving Meiringen at 9:15, then taking a train from Oberwald to Brig and then the ultra scneic Lotschberg mainline to Spiez and back to Interlaken, my base - couldn't ask for a more scenic day trip! But have a Swiss Pass or something as the fares would be very expensive without it.

You have tempted me to go on the Bernina Express. Is it true that in winter it doesn't do the full route from Davos to Brig? If it just up to Tirano, would it still be worth the trip around 20 Dec?

eu - The Glacier Express runs all winter between Zermatt, Brig and Davos and St Moritz. There are trains on the Bernina Pass route, including i believe the official Bernina Express, running all winter as well.

Maybe i'm missing your point but it seems you've mixed up these trains a bit - kindly rephrase your question if this does not answer your query. Sincerely PalQ

Priceless. Thank you so much, PQBob...

PQBob,
Does the Engelberg mountain train leave from the Luzern station? Is it a private line?

Engleberg mountain train leaves from Lucerne and goes direct to Engelberg, twice every hour, taking about one hour - it's an S-Bahn line "S S4".

Railpasses, including Eurailpasses are valid on this line. Thus it's not a 'private' line in the sense that railpasses are valid on it, including Eurailpasses valid in Switzerland or two country Eurail passes including Switzerland.

THE OFFICIAL THREE PASSES TOUR, A K A "GLACIERS & PASSES" (Dreipassefahrt)
Finishing up with this neat bus tour - i just found a brochure i brought back and whilst you can do the three pass jaunt on your own as i wrote above by changing buses, there is an official Three Passes Tour that begins and ends in Grindelwald, picking up at Lauterbrunnen, Wilderswil, Interlaken West and Ost stations and points between Interlaken and Brienz, Meiringen and Innertkirchen from where it does the Three Passes and then returns via Innertkirchen and Meiringen, Interlaken to Grindelwald.

Thus no matter where you stay in the BOB - even Murren or Gimmelwald you can easily hook up with this once daily bus.

OFFICIAL 3 PASS BUS TOUR NITTY-GRITTY
In past few years tour has run very Tue and Fri from the 3rd week in June to mid-Sept - 'guaranteed journeys', returning to Meiringen about 17:15 and Grindelwald about 19:00. There is a lunch stop in Andermatt. Route description is provided. Price: (2005) SF 50 from 16 yrs old
SF44 with Swiss Pass
SF39 kids 4-16
(note with Swiss Pass on your own you only pay the SF10 or so 'Alpine Ticket')
buses will be scrubbed if passes are blocked by snow - not unlikely first and last few weeks.

Info: www.grindelwaldbus.ch; Grindelwald Bus Grund 10, 3818 Grindelwald
ph (0) 33 854 16 16
E-mail info@grindelwaldbus.ch

some tidbits from the brochure:
'From the first stop on the Susten Pass there is a magnificent view of the Stein Glacier.'
'along the Furka Pass you will experience the high quality and renowne skills of our drivers and you will also see from the road the Rhone Glacier'

GROSSE SCHEIDEGG ROUNDTRIP - BUS & BOAT

While talking of buses in the Interlaken BOB area one would be remiss not to mention the FANTASTIC Grosse Scheidegg Roundtrip, also offered by Grindelwald Bus as detailed above.

This day journey starts in Interlaken, goes up to Grindelwald and then up and over Grosse Sheidegg Pass from where it descends to Meiringen and Brienz, from where you take a boat on Lake Brienz to Interlaken.

This is a dramatically scenic bus ride:

Even the Interlaken to Grindelwald section is pretty, following a rushing river up the Schwarze Lutschine Valley to Grindelwald, which, arguably, offers the finest panorama of high ice-bound peaks and glaciers in all the Alps - from here the bus plies impossibly narrow roads just wide enough for the bus as it shashays around hairpin curves en route to the famed vista and pass of Grosse Scheidegg (alt 1960 m), from where you can see all over the gorgeous Grindelwald amphitheatre laid out below. The surrealistically beautiful landscape here of lush Alpine meadows framed by rugged majestic peaks will forever be ethced in your mind's eye!

But the trip even gets finer as the bus now descends a 'wildly romantic' (to quote the brochure) to Schwarzwaldalp, a remote untouched mountain village especially known for its lumbering and its many plump Swiss cows (up in higher pastures in summer) and the Rosenlaui with its awesome Glacier Gorge and past Reichenbach Falls (where Sherlock Holmes' arch enemey Dr Moriarity met his doom by falling into the falls, i believe) before twisting down every so carefully, bus driver's hand constantly on the unique oompah horn, to the valley at Meiringen and onto the famous wood carving village of Brienz, from where you board a boat to go back to Interlaken and from there back to Grindelwald for those starting there.

The price includes: Tour of a saw mill in Schwarzwaldalp, lunch in a restaurant in this idyllic remote Alpine village, entry to the Rosenlaui Gorge, boat Brienz-Interlaken.

A stupendous adventure but not for the queasy stomach type as the bus ride can be scary.

GROSSE SCHEIDEGG NITTY-GRITTY
Buses leave Interlaken West train station every Wednesday (only on Wed) from early June thru late Sep (again scrubbed if passes are blocked by snow); arriving back in Interlaken at 17:45 and Grindelwald about 19:00.
Price: Over 16 yrs old - SF90
Swiss Pass SF 78; kids 4-16 SF60, under 4 free. www.grindelwaldbus.ch for current info. Reservations required, departures guaranteed.

VARIANTS- HIKING
If not into the bus tour you can duplicate this route by taking a regular bus from Grindelwald up to Grosse Scheidegg and then walking down the valley all the way to Meiringen. (We actually hiked up from Grindelwald and walked down the valley to Meiringen but this is a marathon hike - keep in mind going downhill can be as taxing on the body as doing uphill.) In Meiringen you can hop the train to Brienz and boat or train to Interlaken from there.)

There is i believe regular bus service Grindelwald-Meiringen over this route but to be sure check the Grindelwald Bus web site. This bus is not valid ohn Swiss Passes.

If you do not mind I have a question for PBob.
Considering doing some scenic train travel through Switzerland in late November. Have only been in Switzerland in the summer. Any of your scenic train trips in Switzerland worthwhile in late November or would the weather tend to be foggy with less to see?

mjs - questions are always welcomed!

Though i too have never been to Switzerland in November, which i think could be a rainy, cloudy season, i think trains like Bernina Express, Glacier Express, Brig-Bern, Brunig Pass, etc. would still be nice, but ones to mountain tops like Pilatus, Jungfraujoch, etc. would rarely have a clear day perhaps, but this can be the case even in summer.

So my gut feeling is no - still would be scenic but days do grow short so you have less time to view the awesome scenery.

Maybe Enzian, Schuler or altamiro, who are familiar with Switzerland throughout the year could comment better but i say they're still well worth it. Lake boats run skeleton schedules or not at all and postal buses going over passes don't run of course. PalQ.

Questions- always welcomed!

MJS:
Before you come, take a look at the weather forecast and then make plans accordingly.

For good weather, go to the mountains.
For rainy weather, stay in the cities and go to the Christmas markets.

For the last two years, we've had a mild November with fog in the valley and clear blue skies in the mountains. Last year, it started snowing end of November.

Thanks Schuler - you've clarified for me that November may not be an optimal month - if valleys are oft fogged up then i'd say lines like the Glacier Express that mainly go thru valleys may not be the greatest. But if mountain tops are more clear then Bernina Pass type routes may still be great.

SIMPLON PASS BUS
As long as we're talking of great Swiss postal bus rides, i'll turn attention to one that ranks up there with all the others as a very scenic ride - by bus over the Simplon Pass to Italy.
Starting from Brig (alt 681 m), in front of the train station, the Simplon bus immediately starts climbing on the sinuous serpentine-like road that for centuries was the only way over the Simplon Pass before the Simplon Rail Tunnel was opened about a century ago. Who knows maybe even Hannibal and his elephants and Napoleon and his dog went over the pass on their military campaigns.

In about an hour the Simplon Pass (alt 2006 m) and a Top of the World type landscape is reached - a short pit stop here at the Hospiz, a hotel i believe. (Get off here for nice hiking and hop subsequent buses.)

Now it's downhill all the way to Domodossola, Italy (alt 271 m), where the bus terminates at the train station.

From the pass the bus goes largely along a gushing and narrow river valley to Gondo (alt 855 m), the last stop before the Italian frontier and border check. The very narrow gorge around Gondo was the cause of tragedy a few years back when the little village was practically wiped off the map by a torrential flood that killed several villagers i believe.

From Gondo the bus descends to Iselle (alt 629 m), at the small train station from where you can hop local trains back to Brig) or continues on to Domodossola, Italy, where at the station you can also catch trains back to Brig, or south to Stresa and Lake Maggiore and Milan.

Hi Bob,
I have another question if you don't mind.

Just came across a great travel guide at the library, Switzerland, Rail Road Lake by Bradt (3rd edition). It has a wealth of information including all the timetable numbers. Now to my question, are timetables available freely at stations? I cannot possibly print off every conceivable timetable scenario to take with me, it would weigh a ton.

If timetables are not available then what is your suggestion?

Thanks,
Maudie

Maudie- yes Switzerland has an avalanche of free printed timetables to pass out at stations - they have racks and racks of them. And you can go up to the ticket window/information window and they will print out computerized schedules for where you want to go.

And as trains usually go twice hourly on most routes, you don't really need schedules but just need to show up and there will be a train within a few minutes.

Great news, thanks yet again Bob.

You are a treasure - wish I could send you a big bunch of flowers or how about a nice bottle of Margaret River wine???? I will do it in my thoughts - hope you enjoy!

Maudie

I just wanted to say thanks for the answers to my question about the Swiss trains in November.
Did not sound that promising. Considered the south of France instead but at last minute decided to head off to Thailand for a completely different vacation as we have already spent three weeks in Europe this summer.

Maudie - thanks - though the wine sounds good instead i'd appreciate it if after returning you'd contribute your experience of Swiss trains here - always can learn by actual experiences. So that's an order! Have a swell trip. PalQ

PalenqueBob,

You mention that only 1st class cars on the Bernina Express are panoramic. The Bernina Express website says the following:

"All trains operate with 1st and 2nd class panorama coaches"

Is this a change? Or is this inaccurate and you really do need to reserve a 1st class car?

Thanks!

Sorry i missed this...but yes i think this is a recent development on the official Bernina Express cars. In any case i think the Panoramic Car thing is a bit overhyped - all Swiss trains have large, usually clean windows and the views are the same.

That said some Swiss Specialty trains i believe now have a kind of super panoramic first class car - swivel seats and even more plush than usual.

Actually like i said before i prefer riding the ordinary 'real' trains as their windows are fine and i can hop from side to side at will - unlike the usually near full to capacity official express trains i've seen.

I will try to get a definitive answer but assume the Bernina Express website is correct.

>"All trains operate with 1st and 2nd class panorama coaches"

No, it is not a mistake. I was in Chur today and saw the 2nd class panorama coaches. However I agree with PalenqeBob as usual - there is no reason for booking the special express trains unless you have a lot of luggage with you. The much more frequent "normal" trains provide the same view, are only slightly less plush, but often require some more changes (usually well timed)

Re: Panoramic cars on Glacier Express in both classes.

Of course we know this by High Wall's personal sighting in Chur but it has been confirmed by a wagon and seat chart i just received from the Glacier Express group.

In first class there are two Panoramawagen in 1st class each with 28 seats.
There is also a Panoramawagen in 2nd class with 48 seats in the same amount of space.

These three cars run on trains # 904, 906, 907, 908, 909 and 911

This perhaps corresponds to the re-introduction of Glacier Express service which had been suspended during last fall for a thorough rehab of the rolling stock.

In addition there appear to be Personenwagen (non Panoramic) wagons in both classes on trains as well.

PlanequeBob (or anybody else who wants to jump in),

What a wealth of great information!

I am in the very early stages of planning a trip (nothing firm at this point) and need some advice. What I would like to do is to combine a visit to the Italian lake district (probably Lake Como) and Switzerland. I can get good air connections to Milan and to Zurich, so I am thinking of arriving in one of those and departing from the other. I am open to suggestions, but it seems to me that travel by train is the best bet, however I have very limited experience with European trains. I would like to limit the trip to about 10 days. This will limit where I can plan on going in Switzerland. Finally, the trip would probably be in late September and/or early October 2007.

Suggestions for routes, places to visit, etc.?

Thanks.

Having been in the first class panorama cars of the Glacier Express twice, and the regular cars twice -- I will never ever accept the panorama car again -- in the summer. To be honest the views seemed just as good from the regular train -- there is rarely much to see by looking up -- and the sun coming down through all that glass baked us thoroughly. We had to keep escaping to another car for a breather to avoid the oven of the panorama car.

bookmarking

cwj---there are very good train connections from certain places in the Lake District to Switzerland. From Como to Luzern is 3.5 hours on a direct train (no changes, but you might like to get off a spend some time in Lugano en route). From Luzern, there are many options.

Or from Locarno, at the northern end of Lago Maggiore, it is only 3 hours to Luzern, again with no changes. But if you are in Locarno, you might as well take the very scenic Centovalli railway to Domodossola, and then enter Switzerland via Brig:

http://www.centovalli.ch/

Enzian,

What about the possibility of starting and ending in Milan. Go north from Milan via Como, make some sort of loop in Switzerland, and return to Milan as you describe through Brig?

Warner

That would be a very nice trip---stopping in Como (or maybe ferry to Varenna); Luzern; someplace in the Berner Oberland (Lauterbrunnen, Mürren, etc.; then maybe Kandersteg (see www.oeschinensee.ch for pictures of the lovely lake near there); and then back to Milan via Brig.

Or you could take the Golden Pass train from Luzern to Montreux, and then to Brig and Milan from there.

Either one is a nice loop, very doable in 10 days.

kopp: i hope you don't mind me copying this here for future reference if this thread ever gets around to the BOB. thanks for posting it on the other thread!

Author: kopp
Date: 01/04/2007, 11:53 am
Hello PalQ,

We've done the SP train several times, and it does indeed live up to its billing as quite dramatic.

The train goes up the hill quite slowly and at quite a slope. The seats are long wooden benches, facing each other. I find it most comfortable to sit on the downslope going up.

You need to have your camera ready for every twist and turn. As the train winds around the hills, the views of Interlaken and the lakes are fabulous.

But then on the final approach, point your camera out to the right and the most stunning views of the Jungfrau, Eiger, all the way to the Schilthorn, etc. are before you. To see it all from this vantage point is nothing short of breathtaking.

Now you find yourself at the station's end, where the views from the table are stunning. A full-service restaurant awaits your dining pleasure. Somehow, though, an ice cream sundae seems to fit the bill for us. Be sure to get a table by the cliff's edge. WOW!

For hiking, there are numerous trails with spectacular views of Interlaken's lakes on one side and the mountains on the other. Quite rugged in parts and quite steep (for us anyway), but once you get up there, OMG, drop-dead views!

The Alpine Garden is a lovely terraced area where you will find literally hundreds of varieties of wildflowers, even the beautiful Edelweiss which are hard for us to usually find on our walks. More hiking in this area also. There is a slight admission charge for walking thru this garden area.

On a clear day, the trains are packed. Lots of local folks with their kids. Sometimes going down can mean waiting for a train or two for a place to sit.

This is a real gem!

Forgot to add kopp is talking about Schynige Platte railway (SP) that goes from Wilderswil, a mile out of Interlaken-Ost, up the Schynige Platte, location of the acclaimed Alpine Garden and fab views as kopp details. this is a slow-moving train as it takes 52 mins to cover the 7km of constantly ascending or descending tracks. I've seen the trains often in the station at Wilderswil and it seems many or all are steam operated.

SWISS PASS PRICES
in a recent check Swiss Pass prices still, rather inexplicably, remain significantly cheaper than for the exact same pass bought in Switzerland. Odd enough because RailEurope, the main US outlet, is about 25%-30% owned by the Swiss Railways.
Many folks criticize RailEurope, usually quite justly, for inflating ticket prices on point-points in Europe but in this case it seems Swiss Rail is the guilty partner?
But mailing fees in the US can run $15-30 - though RailEurope waives the free on orders of $399 or more - many Swiss Passes even times 2 do not reach that level. BETS (www.budgeteuropetravel.com), whom i always recommend for any Swiss rail product, has no fee except rush orders. they also answer any questions - 800-441-2387 whether you buy a pass or not, one reason i recommend them.
Swiss Cards are only about $5 cheaper here currently so you may as well cop those at stations in Switzerland. Swiss Transfer Tickets i believe are only sold outside the country.

bookmarking

The Swiss Travel System web site gives current schedules and rundowns of all the scneic Swiss specialty trains, like Glacier Express, Chocolate Train, Golden Pass, Bernina Express, William Tell, etc.
www.swisstravelsystem.ch

PARIS JAZZ FESTIVAL
More free music, the Paris Jazz Festival swings throughout the months of June and July with free concerts in the Bois de Vincennes' Parc Floral.

www.parcfloraldeparis.com

Sorry about the above post mistakingly posted here.

BIG CHANGE IN SWISS FLEXIPASS CONDITIONS

It's been debated on Fodor threads about the Swiss Flexipass and the one-month validity period giving 50% off everything for a whole month along with a number of 100% covered days.

Conflicting language lead to a debate whether after your days of 100% travel were used up if you then got the 50% off still for the rest of the month. Language was ambiguous but after e-mails to Swiss Rail and RailEurope and calls to BETS it was determined that the 50% was granted even if days were exhausted.

And apparently that was the condition but the condition has been changed, at least according to a RailEurope e-mail saying rules had been changed and now the 50% is not available after the 100% days have been used it. They called it a change of conditions from the previous.
For most folks as they use the last day to return to an airport or border point and probably need the last 100% travel day the change means little.

But for others you will have to keep one day left to get the 50% off for the month. At least this is what RailEurope says, and they are the main marketer of Swiss passes in US - indeed Swiss rail is part owner of RailEurope.

And, in relation to the above Q about flexipass 50% off - now i'm wondering if before the first day of 100% travel use you'd get the discount or is it only available from the first 100% day use until the last 100% day use is exhausted.

Scenario - landing in Zurich and just going to Lucerne the first day one may want to pay 50% for this cheap ticket and not use the first 100% day on a pass. I'm trying to track down this answer and will report back.

Lotschberg Tunnel First Trains?
Copying a post talking about the new Lotschberg Tunnel that recently opened to freight rail traffic and soon for passengers - if going from Germany-Bern-Interlaken to Brig and Zermatt or Italy you'll pass by this major north-south international rail route

Author: PalenQ
Date: 06/18/2007
The new Lotschberg train tunnel in Switzerland, at about 21 miles and called the world's longest underdground (not water) tunnel, is finished and reports had a train going thru it for the first time.

But the report i saw was nebulous as to whether the tunnel is opening to full-fledged rail travel or the infrastructure is finally done and regular passenger trains will follow - if so when?

Anyone will any idea of if trains are already using the tunnel or when please enlighten me. thanks

and this is a sweet and sour development to me. Sweet in that Germany-Italy travel time will soon be under 2 hours but sour because instead of what is to me the most scenic mainline train ride in Europe - especially after the old Lotschberg Tunnel's south portal when the train rolls along a narrow ledge overlooking the Rhone River Valley thousands of feet below - kind of like levitating over the valley.

And before the north portal you could also get sweet views of the Kandersteg Valley

But now at Fruitingen you'll enter the tunnel and emerge in the Rhone Valley near Visp and then head right into the Simplon Tunnel to Italy - seeing very little of the awesome Alpine scenery you're tunneling under.

Trains will be speeded up by about an hour, however, making Milan and Italy all that closer.

I assume the classic old line will still have regional trains so if have the extra time take the high road - the old road.

Author: altamiro
Date: 06/18/2007, 12:31 pm
>But the report i saw was nebulous as to whether the tunnel is opening to full-fledged rail travel or the infrastructure is finally done and regular passenger trains will follow - if so when?

Only test trains now. Next official schedule change (mid-december) will introduce the new Lötschberg link into the general scheme of things.

>I assume the classic old line will still have regional trains so if have the extra time take the high road - the old road.

I wholeheartedly agree! "Flying" down into the Rhone valley is easily worth the detour.
Author: bob_brown
Date: 06/18/2007, 02:37 pm
"The first goods trains will be able to use the tunnel from June 16, 2007. A full passenger service will start from December 9, 2007."

The above quote from swissinfo.org can be found here:

http://tinyurl.com/yrbszt

I am still looking for information about the old tunnel that carried passenger vehicles through the mountains.

As slow as that train went I don't see how it could be used in the new tunnel.


Author: altamiro
>As slow as that train went I don't see how it could be used in the new tunnel.

It won't - the car will be still shuttled by train between Kandersteg and Goppenstein. In this regard nothing will change.



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Author: PalenQ
Date: 06/18/2007, 03:07 pm
high wall - that's surprising because i thought now they could ferry cars from Fruitigen to Domodossola - trucks of course are what they want to get off the roads.

I though when i saw the construction at Fruitigen two years ago they looked like car or truck carrying loading docks but must have been wrong so am shocked the Kandersteg-Goppenstein car train will be all. (There are no roads over the Lotschberg Pass so putting on a train is the only way or else about 100 mile detour i think.)

Bob - thanks about the goods trains using the new tunnel - that was what i saw coming out for the first train - a freight train.

a few years ago i hiked the BLS 'Train Teaching path' or whatever they call it between one town and the Kandersteg loading dock train ferry. I would not recommend this path at all as it's a series of ladders basically - very very strenuous and only glimpses of the line, where there are interpretative signs in German only.

Author: bob_brown
So if the old tunnel is used to carry cars, then we still get the thrill of that highway descent to the Valley of the Rhone. I have done it both going down and coming up more than once. Fun trip.

There is a bakery in Gampel that has great Schneken. I hope I can find it again this summer.

(A Schneken is a curled or rolled up flat pastry that has all kind of goodies rolled up inside.)

Author: altamiro
>high wall - that's surprising because i thought now they could ferry cars from Fruitigen to Domodossola - trucks of course are what they want to get off the roads

There are some issues with the trains of different speeds, since I think there is no place within the tunnel where a fast train would overtake the slow one. So I assume they will send freight trains through the tunnel in the night and mostly passenger trains during the day. There are also more and more tendencies to load trucks up on the railcars in Basel or Konstanz and unload them in Domodossola.

I am already really curious about the Gotthard base tunnel and Porta Alpina when it opens in 2016 (?)...

Copying a thread in which i posed the question about anyone having first-hand report on new Lauterbrunnen-Grutschalp cable car that replaced old funicular and which recently opened:

Author: mish42
Date: 03/13/2007, 02:38 pm
Hello Swiss Rail Experts:

We are a family of 2 adults and 2 children, who will be of ages 5 & 6 when we are in Switzerland this summer. I understand that with a railpass we can get a family card that allows the children to travel for free. My question is this: on the transportation modes that we only receive 50% off, do our children still go for free or do they then have to pay 50% of the childrens rate. For Example, the part of trip up to Jungfraujoch. What would be the charge for them if we have a Railpass or if we don't have one?
We will be arriving in Zurich airport, travelling direct to Murren, which wil be our base as we explore the BO for 4 days. The we will return to Zurich. Since it's 6 days total, we;d have to get the 8 day Adults saver pass. Is 2nd class ok? Thanks in advance for assistance.



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Author: enzian
Date: 03/13/2007, 02:48 pm
Second class is fine. But you would probably be better off with a 3-day or 4-day FlexiPass ($156 or $189) instead of the 8-consecutive day pass ($235). The FlexiPass still give you 50% off the high mountain lifts, even on "non-travel" days.

I don't know that the official word is on children up to the Jungfraujoch, but ours went free on the family card, while the adults paid 50%.





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Author: mish42
Date: 03/13/2007, 03:00 pm
So, if we got a 4 day flexipass, one day would be used for the trip Zurich to Murren (my understanding from another posting is that all legs of this trip are covered at 100% - correct?). Another day would be used for same return trip. Leaving 2 days to use around BO. Precisely which lifts are included when you say "high mountain" lifts are covered 50% even on no travel days? What about transport from Murren back down to Lauterbrunnen on thos days not using the flexipass? I guess paying that would be cheaper than buying the more expensive 8 day pass? Thanks for you help.



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Author: PalenQ
Date: 03/13/2007, 03:08 pm
My understanding is that kids, with the free Family Pass that comes with the passes you buy (kids must be accompanied by a parent - grandparents don't count) the kids ALWAYS go free.

Anytime you buy a 50% off ticket on things not covered by your pass or on days you don't use a flexipass the kids get a corresponding ticket free (or just hop on sans any ticket)

There have been conflicting views of this on Fodors in past but it was determined that this was the case.

For the ultimate word on this call BETS (800-441-2387) Swiss rail experts who in my years of buying various passes thru them will have the definite answer; www.budgeteuropetravel.com and their page of Swiss trains and passes may also clarify this question. 2nd class is fine for you - Jungfrau trains are only single class i believe and trains and lifts to Murren as well. Swiss Pass covers in full to Murren.



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Author: enzian
Date: 03/13/2007, 03:11 pm
A very attractive feature of the FlexiPass, new this year, is that it operates as a half-fare card on your "non-travel" days, for the days between your first and last day. So you would use 2 days (the first and last) getting to and from Mürren. You might need only one more "covered" day---say if you were going to ride down to Lauterbruennen and up the other side to Kleine Scheidegg and the Jungfraujoch. To just ride the new cablecar down from Mürren to Lauterbrunnen, you could use the half-price feature and not use up one of your travel days. This ride is pretty inexpensive.

Just be sure to write in the date on the pass on each day you are acually using it, just before you board the first lift or train.

Mürren is a good choice for a family with children the ages of yours. They should be able to walk down to Gimmelwald, for example. If the walk back up seems too much, you can ride the cable car back. There are usually some cows to see on that walk, as well as lovely views. You could also walk with them to Grutschalp, a level walk along the train route, and then ride the train back.



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Author: PalenQ
Date: 03/13/2007, 03:15 pm
Practically everything that moves in Switzerland is covered on 50% off on off days on flexipass. (Though someone recently listed some obscure lift somewhere that wasn't.) But i'm pretty sure all in the BOB are 50% off - you will get a map with the pass showing lines with 50% off.
The Stechelberg-Gimmelwald-Murren lift and Lauterbrunnen-Grutschalp lift and then train along the cliff to Murren is 100% covered by Swiss pass - these are about the only aerial cableways in Suisse that seem to be covered 100%.
so yes you can profitably use the other two days getting up and down from Murren. And since the Swiss Pass on 100% covered days is also a Museum Pass good to over 400 Swiss Museums on 100% days if you want to go to Ballenberg Open-Air museum that's worth about $15 a head for adults.
(Excellent journey for adults and kids - go down to Interlaken-Ost from Murren and hop on lake boats on Lake Brienz to float to Brienz and then take train to Meiringen to get postal bus to Ballenberg Museum, an open-air museum set in pastures overlooking the lake. Kids will love the demonstrations of old farming techniques and such - many old buildings moved here in an open-air park of old-fashioned techniques. Return to Interlaken directly from Meiringen by train or by rail/boat. this would be a great use of a 100% covered pass day as it's 100% good on all the lifts, trains, boats, museums, buses involved.



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Author: PalenQ
Date: 03/14/2007, 11:06 am
By the way i wonder if anyone has first hand report on the new aerial cable way from Lauternrunnen's train station up the cliff to Grutschalp, which replaces the old ground-based funicular this winter.
All i know is that it's open but haven't heard anything about it. Suppose it's like the Stechelberg-Gimmelwald cable, one of the most thrilling i've been on.



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Author: PalenQ
Date: 06/02/2007, 11:21 am
any word on the new Lauaterbrunnen-Grutschalp lift?



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Author: PalenQ
Date: 06/07/2007, 01:22 pm
anyone taken this lift - is it about the same as the thrilling one down the valley at Stechelberg to Gimmelwald?



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Author: enzian
Date: 06/07/2007, 02:43 pm
PalenQ---I started a separate thread with this inquiry (and pointing out the fact taht sbb.ch does not show this connection as a cablecar, intead of a train). No response from anyone who has actually ridden the lift.



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Author: PalenQ
Date: 06/08/2007, 02:23 pm
Enzian - i guess it's running and we can take a ride free via YouTube

YouTube - Cable Car in Switzerland 2006 *
New Lauterbrunnen - Grutschalp Cable car 01:00. From ...
1min -
www.youtube.com/watch?v=paznOtbx9BU


YouTube - LSMS Murren - Stechelberg
Check out when cable car starts descending over 500 m. high ...
Watch video - 3min -
www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqoagATtejY





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Author: enzian
Date: 06/08/2007, 04:48 pm
Cool! We'll be on tht lift in 3 weeks and one day (Am I counting????) If no one has reported back by then. . . I will.



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Author: MarkvonKramer
Date: 06/08/2007, 07:29 pm
PalenQ,

Thanks to your and Bob-Brown's advice, we used this conveyance the last week of May. It follows the old funicular exactly and is spectacular. The view across to Wengen and the valley below is one of the most breath-taking sights we have ever witnessed. The view was far better than that from the cable car at the Stechelberg end of the valley, and that ain't bad!

MvK



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Author: mish42
Date: 06/09/2007, 01:45 am
can't wait! We'll be there next month, staying in Murren for 5 nights.



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Author: PalenQ
Date: 06/09/2007, 10:11 pm
<The view was far better than that from the cable car at the Stechelberg end of the valley, and that ain't bad!>

Marvon - WOW - i thought the Stechelberg-Gimmelwald lift was so awesome now i can't wait to do the new one that seems even more breathtaking. Thanks.

And Enziane - awaiting your experience as well!

CHANGE IN SWISS PASS AND JUNGFRAU RAILWAYS

Previously i wrote about the Swiss Pass, even the flexipass when not using one of your 100% covered travel days, giving 50% off everything that 'moves in Switzerland except cows' and except for a few obscure cableways off the tourist path that few would ever take it was true. And still is true, but as of July, 2007, according to www.sbb.ch web site there has been a change as regards to the discount and the Jungfrau Railways in the BOB

Though the Swiss Pass still gets a 50% discount off normal fares for trains above Grindelwald and Wengen - places to which the Swiss Pass takes you with full coverage - above these towns en route to Kleine Schiedegg and Jungfraujoch ('Summit of Europe' and Europe's highest train station) there is now, for Swiss Pass holders, a CHF 27 surcharge.

When taken into account on the whole trip to the summit and back from either Grindelwald or Wengen the CH27 supplement makes the overall discount an effective 25% or so - back to what it was prior to 2006 when the Swiss Pass discounts on nearly every cable, gondola, trains to mountain tops, etc. was changed from 25% to 50%

All other 50% discounts remain the same it seems - Schilthorn, etc. though i will be checking on those as well.

Eurailpasses valid in Switzerland have gotten 25% off Jungfrau Railways and there is no word on sbb.ch indicating they have to pay the CHF 27 (+-$20) surcharge.

Any definitive word would be appreciated.

Not sure how Half-Fare card, Swiss Card, etc. are affected - sbb.ch just mentions Swiss Pass.

saving

SWISS SPECIALTY TRAINS BUMP UP OBSERVATION CARS

Trains like the Golden Pass (Lucerne-Interlaken-Spiez-Montreux), William Tell (Lucerne via boat to Fluelen- train to Lugano) and the Glacier Express (Zermatt-St Moritz/Chur/Davos) all have inaugurated new Observation or Panoramic cars on their trains.

Whilst the signature thing about a Panoramic car remains the glass roof providing a whole panorama the new such cars have such things as revolving seats.

The William Tell has taken this to a new height as they now have seats that revolve as the train twists and turns - automatically.

Such seats on the Golden Pass (Montreux-Zweissimmen portion) also revolve but not automatically. But on this line there are special VIP observation seats in the very front of the train - with a handful actually perched next to and above the driver so it seems like you are driving.

The Glacier Express closed down for a few months last year to completely rehab its cars and now the new Observation cars allow passengers to have meals served at seats - i guess with those unique tilting wine glasses. Glacier Express is unique i think in that some trains have Observation cars in 2nd class. the supplement for the Glacier Express, with the new cars, however has soared to around $35 above a pass price. (Eurailpasses pay much more because the Zermatt-Brig-Disentis portion is not covered.)

The William Tell is first class only and second class pass or ticket holders have to pay a heft surchge of about $45, which however includes a nice meal on the boat.

Eurailpasses cover the basic train fare in full for William Tell (1st class passes only of course) and all of the Golden Pass route.

There are observation cars in first class also on some other mainline trains such as i believe Zurich-Milano-Nice.

Observation cars are also getting hard to book - so if you'd wish to experience these fancy cars (but the scenery is the same of course from any car!) book early. Especially hard to book are the VIP seats on Golden Pass Montreux-Zweissimmen. check out www.swisstravelsystem.com for details on all these trains. Save handling fees by booking Observation cars when you buy your Swiss Pass (for passes and especially for reservations in such cars i always highly recommend BETS 800-441-2387; www.budgeteuropetravel.com for their expertise and accessibility by phone and lack of RailEurope's mailing fees for orders under $399.

Anyone ridden any of the newly rehabbed/new Observation cars - especially the auto revolving seats on the William Tell.

Note that i generally recommend 2nd class as being fine for most folks on Swiss trains but if taking a few of the first-class Observation cars you may want to opt for a first class pass as the supplements needed to upgrade to first class could be about the price differential between passes perhaps and there are always benefits on any train in first class, though not as much difference in Suisse than in other countries.

Re: Observation cars

I'm a bit conflicted on this. Though i loved the novelty of the swivel chairs on the Golden Pass train to montreux and the all glass ceiling IME these cars are often packed full - often with tour groups and as i'm one who'd rather be in a sparsely populated car where i can hop from one side of the train to the other as scenery dictates i actually prefer to take regular trains along these routes instead of the few daily official Golden Pass, Bernina Express trains etc.

Local trains accept no reservations and are rarely packed.

But then there's the lure of the new automatically swiveling seats on the William Tell and on the Golden Pass i was delighted for those swivel yourself seats as well.

So i'm conflicted. And it's simply very hard to make reservations in the Observation cars on the spot it seems - probably due to tour groups that even in off season can book them up.

So rather than reserve weeks in advance i demand flexibility so i would try to reserve locally and if not just take the local trains.

Note the Glacier Express however is just about the only way to go between St Mortiz and Zermatt in one day - only trains that go thru. Locals you need to change a few times and yes if you start out at 6am you may get to Zermatt by 10pm or so.

bookmarking

Swiss trains were one of the last ones in Europe to allow smoking but all that has changed and either now or soon all smoking will be banned.

Thus the old color code of red seats for smokers and green for non-smoking will become irrelevant.

I hope i have the color scheme right!

Palen Q...in 2005, we saw smoking on trains. In 2006, I didn't see it allowed on ANY trains and we took some very small ones as well. It sure was a blessed relief. Now, if they could clean up some of the restaurants. We had to eat outside almost all the time!

>Swiss trains were one of the last ones in Europe to allow smoking but all that has changed and either now or soon all smoking will be banned.

Pal, where have you been? Smoking is banned on all Swiss trains for almost 2 years now.

i guess i was thinking of Germany - it's true there yes - ICE trains the last car is for smokers and soon to be extinguished.

thanks for correcting my serious gaffe (but a recent RailEurope epistle said this too)

>(but a recent RailEurope epistle said this too)

Shows what they know

but remember Swiss Railways owns about a third of Rail Europe - figure that one out.

>but remember Swiss Railways owns about a third of Rail Europe

The fact they own the RE stock doesn´t mean there is a lot of communication between the companies.

Obviously.

and i'm still wondering why Swiss Passes are so much cheaper if bought in U.S. than same pass bought at Swiss stations - or do they even know there is a difference?

TYPES OF SWISS CONVEYANCES: A Matter of Gauge; Cog-Wheel or Rack-and-Pinion; Funiculars; Cable Cars; Chairlifts; Trams; Buses; Postal Buses; Boats

A Matter of Gauge - gauge is i think the width of the tracks - how far apart they are.

Standard gauge is the gauge used throughout Europe for most mainline trains (except Spain, Portugal and Finland also use Broad Gauge - wider tracks than most of Europe - one reason so few trains can go across these borders except the few Talgo-like trains that have wheel bases that can move apart or be cranked in at the border:

example the Pau Casals Trainhotel Elipsos that begins in Zurich each night and then stops in Bern, Freibourg, Lausanne and Geneva before ending up at 9am in Barcelona's Franca station. this runs on normal 'standard gauge' tracks in Suisse and France then cranks its wheels apart to go on the wider Spanish tracks to Barcelona. One of the few trains that can go thru the border.

Switzerland also has many narrow-gauged tracks that are closer together than Standard Gauge - and there seem to be at least two different narrow gauge (could be more) - the normal metre-gauge narrow-gauge, where tracks i guess are one metre apart - as on the extensive routes of many non-SBB lines such as Zermatt-Disentis-Chur-Davos/St Moritz; St Moritz-Bernina Pass-Tirano Italy and, the only one run i believe by the Swiss Federal Railways (SBB in German) - the Lucerne-Interlaken Ost line - i could be wrong about it being the only one - it is said to be the only cog-assisted SBB line however.

Most narrow-gauge lines run thru rugged terrain necessitating narrower rights of way and i believe the smaller trains can climb easier, etc.

But there are smaller gauges than the metre-gauge common throughout Switzerland - such as the even tinier gauge used Lauterbrunnen-Wengen-Kleine Scheidegg-Grindelwald (BOB Railways) - again i think because climbs are more pronounced.

Not sure of all the technical reasons but there are at least three gauges and this prevents transferring to other gauged lines - such as at Interlaken Ost - trains from Lucerne over the Brunig Pass must terminate there and all change to normal gauged trains to Spiez and Zweisimmen

this is why the Golden Pass train cannot offer thru running Lucerne-interlaken-Zweisimmen-Montreux and all have to change trains in Interlaken, Zweisimmen (normal gauge to narrow gauge) - this is a problem for Golden Pass who would like a Glacier Express like seamless Lucerne-Montreux train and serious thoughts about putting a third rail on the Interlaken-Zweisimmen portion to accommodate thru running.

And likewise Interlaken-Lauterbrunnen-Wengen you have to change at Lauterbrunnen because of gague differences - ditto Interlaken-Grindelwald-Kleine Scheidegg.

NEXT COG-ASSISTED TRAINS

Love the cogs!! That was the best part of the Glacier Express!

Here's one for you....a HOG assisted train!

http://www.dot.state.ga.us/dot/plan-prog/intermodal/rail/images/HOG_Engine1.JPG

thanks for the laugh!

cogs - ah yes when you see the train slow to a crawl to engage the cog mechanism and then lurch forward slightly when engaged and then the little cog sound as the train actually uses the cog and cogwheel to climb... that's exciting even to me for the ten thousandth time.

cog railway and rack and pinion are the same i believe and involves a pinion or cog wheel that fits into the cog tracks in the middle of the tracks

thus the train climbs much like someone climing a stair or descending of course to gain traction going up and help braking going down.

My technical description would probably have me flunking civil engineering but that's the idea.

It is only used on significantly steep grades.

And in Switzerland that means many of them - always on narrow-gauge lines.

The only mainline cog-assisted train run by the Swiss Federal Railways i believe is the Lucerne-Brunig Pass-Interlaken-Ost.

But many of the so-called private railways (private meaning it seems non SBB as i think all are heavily subsidized by federal or local governments) use cogs.

so when the train slows to a crawl and you hear some gurgling sound underneath you are hearing the cogwheel engaging with the cogged track and then accelerate a bit after engaged. There is a clicking sound until the cog-assisted part ends.

FUNICULARS

Of all the quaint Swiss conveyances i perhaps like funiculars the best.

A funicular operates on a simple method - it consists usually of two cars linked together by a cable. As one car descends, it pulls the other car up - the of course pay at a midway point and the tracks correspondingly diverge here.

It does run on tracks, so is a railway i guess. They also have electric power but gravity is a key part it seems.

Funiculars move slow and silently - the seats are often in rows and face down or up as you go - looking down can be a bit scary for folks afraid of heights.

Though there are quite a few short funiculars in cities like Lausanne (though i think that one has been converted to a metro) it's the really long ones i enjoy, though these are few and fewer in number after the Lauterbrunnen-Grutschalp one was replaced by an aerial cable way last fall.

Swiss passes seem to cover long funiculars, unlike gondolas, which they usually cover 50%.

The best funicular i've been on in Switzerland is the long, long one - must be longest in Europe that goes in at least two stages from Sierre SBB train station to Montana or Crans-Montana, a spiffy ski resort that looms over the Rhone Valley and the town of Sierre far below.

This is an antique-looking device that creeps up a steep slope ever so slowly - there are several intermediate stations where locals get on and off.

Covered in full by a Swiss Pass - you can walk from Montana to Crans and then take a postal bus down to Sion and the Sion SBB station.

Sion is a nice enough but modern town but which has two great crags on its edge, each with a castle - one ruined as i remember and the other intact. A great but short hike from Sion leads you there.

Rave views from the crags over the vineyard-clad Rhone Valley.

GOLDEN PASS UPDATE

The official Golden Pass train now offers Panoramic Cars in both classes, relfecting a move by the Glacier Express which did likewise - previously i believe first-class cars were the only Panoramic ones but i could be wrong.

So if anyone's buying a Swiss pass in first class just to ride in Panoramic Cars, at least on Golden Pass and Glacier Express that is nil.

They have been restoring the castle and its amazing Cathedral in Sion. It's definitely worth visiting!

>Swiss passes seem to cover long funiculars, unlike gondolas, which they usually cover 50%

Actually, no.
The Swiss Pass covers every conveyance that connects two TOWNS (or villages or so). W/ other words anything that is really a public transport, anything that is used (or can be used) for commuting to/from workplace etc. - so for example the cable car between Betten station and Bettmeralp.

altamiro - makes sense now.

most gondolas don't connect towns but the Lauterbrunnen-Grutschalp-Murren cable/train does and is thus covered.

ditto Lauterbrunnen-bus-Stechelberg-Gimmelwald-Murren gondola.

thanks for clafifying that - is this something written in stone or just a generality that in fact is so?

thanks

>thanks for clafifying that - is this something written in stone

I think it is the condition for the subsidies. Otherwise the company (municipality, etc.) running the cable car has to set prices covering the entire costs, and setting aside at least a buffer for emergencies (natural catastrophes in mountains are a fact of life, a costly one)

again thanks a.m.

Linda: Sion is a nice nice place that rarely registers on the average tourists agenda - no doubt because there are so many more fabulous and famous things in Switzerland for the first time tourist.

But it and the Rhone Valley are splendid.

I forgot about the Sion Cathedral!

Actually talking about scenic trains the train line down (and up) the Rhone Valley is great - all the way from Brig to Lake Geneva (aka Lac Leman)

For one thing it's a deep narrow valley most of the way and the rushing green-gray water of the Rhone adds to its charm.

As do the vineyards - certainly one of the densest grapevine carpets in Switzerland.

Though express trains blow through only stopping at key cities like Martigny, Sion, etc. I like to take the local 'omnibus' trains that stop at every little station - some of the sleepy stations are actually surrounded by a swirl of vineyards

and these trains move slow and at points there are vines right out the window - can almost grab some grapes.

Martigny is of course the gateway for one of Switzerland's most scenic trains - the MC Martingy-Chamonix narrow-gauge mountain-climbing train. (Whole route covered by Swiss Pass even French portion - glaciers near Chamonix and a hellacious climb from Rhone Valley all too close to the ledge steeply leaving the valley.

But thanks for reminding me that you too thought Sion nice.

Back to terms;

Gondolas, cableways, chairlifts

Gondolas and Aerial Cableways

To me the two terms mean the same but one could be a large vehicle - an aerial cable car could accommodate many more people, who stand up with a few seats around the edges and gondolas may be the 2- or 4-person typically cars that swing along a cable, with many gondolas spaced along the cableway. The cableway moves and the gondola is gripped to it and moves with it.

Thus with gondolas you board in 2s and 4s every few seconds

An aerial cablecar goes less frequent because it takes so many and is much heavier - but still moves gripped to a cable

A thrill is on either one when the vehicle passes under a support pole and makes a grinding noise and there is a slight up and down as the cable goes thru the support post (not sure of the technical aspect of this)

And though most small gondolas go in a steady line and you hop in them while they are slowly moving thru the station, some, like the infamous Mer de Glace gondolas near Chamonix, France that go over the Mer de Glace actually stop while people board and de-board - leaaving you dangling high above europe's largest glacier - an eerie feeling of thinking let's get this dang thing moving!

Anyway doing at least one thrilling gondola or cablecar ride in the Swiss Alps is a must.

My favorite cablecar is the Stechelberg-Gimmelwald one near Lauterbrunnen - this is like going up and down in an airplane!

Favorite gondola in Switzerland is the Murren-Schilthorn one, which is touted as the longest aerial cableway in the world i believe.

You, do, have to "get over the fear" and hop on and up! Two of my favorite chairlift rides were the descent from Alp Languard overlooking St. Moritz and the ascent/descent from Kandersteg to the Oesch....whatever...see.

Oeschinensee. The funny little chairlift that you ride sideways. But as my kids pointed out, despite the old wooden chairs, the thing moves by modern "high-speed" technology, slowing down while you board, and then speeding up.

thanks folks for more lifts to take - especially sideway sitting one and the Kandersteg Valley i have yet to explore, just drooled at it from Kandersteg and often from the train.

For a real thrill, ride the chairlift from Hohfluh down to Riederalp:

www.riederalp.ch

This puppy drops over a cliff, similar to the ride down from Gimmelwald to Stechelberg, only not as much vertical drop. Still, sitting in a chair and facing that drop, it's pretty exciting.

thanks Enzian - a chairlift like that must be far more thrilling than a gondola!

Riederalp is also one place i haven't been as hope to soon and looking forward to this chairlift.

Copying another thread where i asked about any Swiss funiculars anyone knew of and delighted to find out so many still running!

Author: PalenqueBob (palenquebob@aol.com)
Date: 09/07/2007, 11:19 am
On another post we were talking about the demise of funiculars in Switzerland and were wondering how many are left.

A funicular is something that runs on tracks but is pulled up by a cableand operates on the principal that there are two equal weight cabins, one on each end of the cable and as one climbs the other descends - an equilibrium or such - gravity or such (i'm not a scientist) helps move one up and the other down - and of course the cable is powered by motors.

Funiculars seem to be biting the dust in favor of aerial cableways - like the Lauterbrunnen-Grutschalp on in the Berner Oberland - the old funicular that ran for decades was decided to be unsafe because of soil settling so a spiffy new aerial cable car has replaced it

In Lausanne the funicular to Ouchy, lakeside, is now part of the town's metro system and a proper train, not funicular.

Ones in Lucerne have stopped running for whoever knows the reason

But Q - what funiculars do you know are still running.

1- the Sierre to Montana (Crans-Montana) one still runs - extremely long and in two stages i think.

2- In Lucerne up to the hilltop hotel/restaurant - is it still running as i think hotel folded its tent?

Sunnegg (?) Zermatt maybe has an underground funicular - or is it a train?

But i really can't think of any other funiculars - must be plenty in towns?

Any you know of?

Author: TuckH
Date: 09/07/2007
We rode the one that goes up San Salvatore above Lake Lugano.
Author: schuler
Date: 09/07/2007
I went up the Stoos funicular last year (near Schwyz) and the Ritom (in Tessin) funicular last month. The latter is one of the steepest I've ever been on.

http://www.bahn-bus-ch.de/bahnen/fpr/index.html

Author: gradyghost
Date: 09/07/2007
Actually there are three in Lugano if you count the funicular from the city centre to the train station.

Author: BTilke
Date: 09/07/2007
In Lugano, there's also a still working funicular to Monte Bre and a funicular to take your from the train station to the "ground" level of the city (and back).
http://www.montebre.ch/index_en.html

Plus when my husband's aunt and uncle lived in the hills outside Bellinzona, they had their own funicular that took them from their garage up to the house. It's still working for the current home owners. There are quite a few funiculars serving private residences in the area.

Author: enzian
Date: 09/07/2007
Sunnegga (in Zermatt) is definitely a funicular---the cars are "stepped" just like the old Lauterbrunnen to Grutschalp one. One track with a split to 2 tracks in the exact middle, where the two cars pass each other. It goes very fast! And since it is underground, it was not a fun ride for me---no views, nothing to see but the tunnel.

Author: Ingo
Date: 09/07/2007
I can think of some others.

- Fribourg, from lower to upper town,
- Bern (Marzili),
- Bern (Gurten, not sure, but it runs on the ground),
- Lac de Bienne, saw one from the boat, running up the vineyards,
- Neuchatel going up to Mt. Chaumont,
- Interlaken Harder Kulm (and what about Heimwehfluh?)
- Upper Engadin Muottas Muragl,
- Zürich Polybahn?

and I believe there are quite some more all over Switzerland ...

Ingo

Author: schuler
Date: 09/07/2007
Here's a map of all operating funiculars in Switzerland.
http://www.funimag.com/suisse/Funimag-Suisse.htm

Author: Albany1624
Date: 09/08/2007
Great website, Schuler. I'm going to print this out and take it with me when I travel on business. I often have a weekend or Sunday when I'm at "loose ends" and looking for something fun to do. My goal: Ride all the Swiss funiculars!

Author: beaupeep
Date: 09/08/2007
There is one in Vevey that goes up to Mont Pélerin - it's a very steep ride and the cars are especially designed for it - they are stepped inside. Great views on the way up too.


Author: PalenqueBob
Date: 09/10/2007
Schuler - merci for that wonderful web site - there are indeed many traditional funiculars running throughout Switzerland. thanks again!

LOTSCHBERG TUNNEL OPENS
Another update on the newly opened Lotschberg Tunnel from Fruitigen to Visp - 22 miles long - though tunnel has indeed opened to freight trains the 30 or so passenger trains to use it daily will only be from December 2007 on.
Thus until then passengers 'have' to take the much more scenic current routing via the much higher up and shorter old Lotschberg Tunnel - and the dramatically scenic line south of the old tunnel when the tracks drop to Brig and the Rhone Valley
Tant pis that after December passenger trains will burrow under all this beauty but they will also gain one hour between Bern and points south like Milan.

UPDAT: GOLDEN PASS VIP SEATS

The ballyhooed and incredibly exciting to me VIP seats on the portion of the Golden Pass scenic Swiss train (Montreux-Zweissimmen)

There are 8 seats per train and in Switzerland the charge is CHF 15 or about $14-15

These seats let you think you are driving the train, kind of

You are perched next to (or above, not sure) the drivers cabin and can see out the front much like you are driving the train.

These seats can of course be very hard to book but always try if in Switzerland they could be available of course. But either reserve thru www.sbb.ch or www.swisstravelsystem.com, if possible if you have a pass - not sure but think so. In the U.S. i asked the folks at BETS (800-441-2387) about these seats and they said yes unless booked weeks in advance they often are sold out. Not sure what they charge but for details call.
I would enjoy further reports by anyone who has ridden in these VIP seats. (First class only i believe)

GOLDEN PASS SEATING CHARTS
The Golden Pass specialty train runs between Lucerne and Interlaken-Ost and Zweisimmen and Montreux, but with two changes of trains mandated by difference in track gauge (width) and though nebulous plans are at some point to add a third rail on the wider-gauge Interlaken-Ost to Zweissimmen portion currently it's all change at Interlaken Ost and Zweisimmen, resulting in three different types of trains and three different seat reservations if doing the whole thing at once

Lucerne-Bruning Pass-Interlaken Ost (East) trains have usually five Golden Pass cars: 1 panoramic car in 1st cl; one 1st class car in 'Retro' style; one car Retro style with both 1st and 2nd class in it; 2 2nd class Retro cars. Plus there may be several other non-Golden Pass train cars attached to the train for local service that has nothing to do with Golden Pass.

INTERLAKEN OST-ZWEISIMMEN

Five cars: Goldenpass Club Car 1st class adjacent to kitchen and bar for service at seat

2 Goldenpass 2nd class cars

2 Goldenpass 1st class cars

Note this section is the least 'dramatic' scenic which may explain the lack of panoramic cars

ZWEISIMMEN-GSTAAD-MONTREUX

This is the classic section of the Golden Pass route (formerly called the Panoramic Express) and includes the most steady Alpine scenery and what to me is the highlight of the whole route - the dramatic descent thru vineyards down to Lake Geneva and Montreux.

8 Montreux Oberland Bahn GoldenPass cars

4 panoramic cars each in 1st and 2nd class thus all cars are panoramic and you can do 2nd class with panoramic now (not before)

the front car, 1st class panoramic includes the 8 Train-Pilot seats described in above post and IMO very worthwhile reserving far in advance to get these unique vantage seats - they are in car #10.

PAN GOTTARDO OBSERVATION CAR
Adding to the many observation cars - special cars with glass domed and extra large windows that ply rails thru the most scenic parts of Switzerland - is the Pan Gottardo Observation Car

The car goes over the St Gotthard rail route Zurich-Lugano - the line marks its 125th anniversary this year and is especially known for its spiral tunnels inside mountains and breathtaking Alpine scenery.
www.sbb.ch for details and possible booking or in U.S. i always recommend BETS 800-441-2387 for their expertise and lower fees.

SWISS PASS PRICES TO RISE?

Talking here about Swiss Pass prices in the U.S. where they are currently about 15-20% cheaper than the exact same pass bought at stations in Switzerland - because i think that unlike most other railpasses whose prices have been adjusted every few weeks it seems - up as the dollar declines, Swiss Passes prices are set in stone apparently until each Dec 31 and then readjusted for the next year.

Thus is suspect to catch up with the sag of the dollar versus Swiss franc the prices may increase significantly

Point - anyone considering using a Swiss Pass (or Swiss Card or Swiss Transfer Ticket) within six months of 12/31/07 can buy the pass before Jan 1 08 and be guaranteed the 2007 price for six months - travel on a flexipass could be as late as 7 months later as long as the one-month validity period is commenced at least six months from issuance.

I don't really know if prices will rise or how much just common sense seems to dictate so and considerable savings could be made by buying before end of year.

Call BETS 800-441-2387 and ask if pass prices will be going up - the price increase by RailEurope, part owned by Swiss railways, is usually made in early November - check to see how much the savings may be and whether it's worth it - keeping in mind that cancelling refund will cost you 15-20% if you don't use it. But will also guarantee against a further erosion of the value of the dollar.

Good advice - I live in the UK but buy my Swiss rail passes from a US company and have them sent to my mom in the US because I save enough to upgrade to first class! I have done this for 2 years now.

SEASONAL MAINTENANCE WORK: PILATUS, SCHILTHORN, TITLUS, JUNGFRAUJOCH CONVEYANCES

Though a little late for this year i've just run across the list of seasonal, maintenance closures for the above conveyances.

Mt Pilatus: cogwheel train to from Alpnachstad stopped operating for a few weeks at the end of November (apparently chairlift from Krens remained open)

Schilthorn: cable way Stechelberg-Gimmelwald-Murren-Schilthorn (called Europe's longest cableway if not the world's) closed Nov 12- Dec 7

Note - the new cableway to Murren via Grutschalp and train from there remains open so Murren can be accessed - have to walk down to Gimmelwald i guess from Murren.

Titlus: cabe car Engleberg-Titlus Nov 12-23

Jungfraujoch cogwheel train only closes if there is a heavy snowfall, otherwise remains open all year

As this time of year is a slow in between season such closures are about annually and also tend to happen in May

Hey Pal, that email doesn't work?
My friend Abby, sent this, nd I thought of you.

http://downloads.raileurope.com/holidayCard/06_christmas_card.html

click on a destination at the bottom.

cigale - as i said on the other thread, thanks again and i'll view this at the library this weekend. thanks for thinking of moi!

Swiss Pass prices are due to rise between 5-10% Jan 1, 2008 - as i mention above you can save bucks if using a Swiss Pass in the next 7 months by buying at the old rate.

Not sure of the actual price increase but i'm sure BETS 800-441-2387 would know old vs new and whether it's worth it for your price of pass.

Rick Steves also has the new prices on the "Railpass" section of his website:

http://www.ricksteves.com/rail/rail_menu.htm

Click on the "2008 passes" to see the new prices.

A 3-day FlexiPass, Saver, goes from $156 to $165. An 8-day Swiss Pass, Saver, goes from $235 to $247.

thanks enzian - ricksteves.com also has a lot of good info on Swiss trains

personally with those low price increases unless traveling in next month or so it may not be worth buying very early - thought for sure it would be more

as this still leaves Swiss Pass prices in $ in U.S. way cheaper than same pass bought at station.

why? mystery for me

Hi PalenQ---yes, it appears they didn't bring the prices totally in line with the currency exchange rates, at least for the Swiss passes. I didn't check on the passes for other countries.

Bookmarking - thank you for this wonderful thread!

enzian

yes price increases were modest compared to what i thought they would be

leaving Swiss Passes still significantly cheaper here than there

why - a mystery

other passes are priced radically different

only Swiss and British railpasses seem to have prices set for the calendar year anymore

all other passes during the past year have yo-yo'ed up and down - mainly up as they are now priced in euros and prices are adjusted as per fluctuating exchange rates

All Eurailpass products for instance will show a slight decrease 1/10/08 - after showing an increase 1/01/08

and prices on these are not set for the year

Swiss Passes are in general a great bargain - esp consecutive day passes IMO for most travelers but of course not all and U.S. prices are even better bargains

ciao

SCENIC SWISS TRAINS - A thread i've been working on for a few years about Scenic Swiss Trains:

cache:http://www.fodors.com/forums/pgMessages.jsp?fid=2&tid=34707687&numresponses=168&start=0&screen_name=PalenQ

Oops mixed up my threads - stupid post above was meant for another thread i've been working on - European Trains for the Clueless:

cache:http://www.fodors.com/forums/pgMessages.jsp?fid=2&tid=35055458&numresponses=118&start=0&screen_name=PalenQ

EURAILPASSES VALID IN SWITZERLAND GET NEW BENEFITS

And there are good changes vis-a-vis Switzerland and the Eurailpasses that are valid in Switzerland:

Now the new Eurail Travelers Guide says trains between Zermatt and Disentis, Andermatt-Goschenen (a short few mile shuttle connecting the Glacier Express route with the Gotthard mainline) and also that cable cars Zermatt-Gornergrat would all get 25% discounts with a Eurailpass - and of course on flexipasses not have to use a day of travel.

Thus the Glacier Express route, previously which gave Eurails no discounts Zermatt-disentis now at least give 25% off and don't entail using a day on a flexipass

Swiss Passes of course have always covered the Zermatt-disentis portion of Glacier Express route in full - and as they give 50% off virtually everything in the country in terms of lifts, cableways, etc. that they don't cover in full still have much more benefits than Eurailpasses for folks doing indepth Swiss travels - most intercity buses, city transport, lake boats, etc. also being 100% covered.

But for folks transiting the country a Eurailpass has more benefits now than previously.

EURAILPASS 50% DISCOUNTS INCREASE IN SWITZERLAND

Mountain conveyances up Mt Titlis and Mt Pilatus near Lucerne also are now 50% off with a Eurailpass - same as a Swiss Pass

this includes:

funicular Alpnachstad to summit of Pilatus (Eurail Travelers Guide says funicular but i believe it's a cog railway more and one of the most dramatic in the world)

and cable car from Kriens to Pilatus - thus the whole excursion Alpnachstad-Pilatus-Kriens would be 50% off www.pilatus.ch

Titlis - 50% off titlis Rotair Cableway from engleberg up to Mt Titlis www.titlis.ch

and Vitznau/Rigi - 50% on mountain railway up Mt Rigi www.rigi.ch

So again a Eurail Flexipass or eurail Select pass would not entail a day of useage to get the discount

Well i suspose the new Lotschberg Tunnels are done and folks are speeding between Fruitigen and Visp but seeing nothing as it's basically all in new tunnels

Thus folks on this major north-south mainline route route will miss out on what to me was one of Europe's most dramatic and scenic Alpine rail routes.

Though it would take an hour or so longer to get off the new higher-speed route and take the classic old line consider doing it if possible

As rather than just a tunnel on the old route, still offering regional trains it seems, you glimpse things like the serene Kandersteg Valley and the dramatic descent, several miles, down into Brig, near Visp where the new tunnel route comes out

To me this dramatic descent, especially for a mainline with normal wide gauge tracks not narrow-gauge is really like being in an airplane as the Rhone River Valley lies thousands of feet below and the train rolls along an all-too-narrow ledge as it slides down to the valley.

Supposedly the world's most powerful train locomotives are employed on this prodigiously up and down route

So if you have time get off the mainline at Spiez or Fruitigen and hop local trains over the slower but more far more scenic route

(seen one tunnel seen them all)

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threadselect.jsp?fid=2&tid=/35110625

A Fodors thread on Swiss trains and selecting the right ticket or pass

SWISS RAIL BAGS & PLANE SCHEME

Relevant question and answer i copied from another thread:
Q
<has anyone used Swiss Rails luggage service where they ship your luggage from the airport to your first Swiss location? Has anyone ever had problems with it?>

And an answer from swandav2000, who has shown many times to be a Swiss train and travel savant (Search for her name on Fodor's and see!)

Answer
<Yes, I've used the luggage service a lot. There are two options.

One option is to ship it from your US airport using tags & documents you buy from Raileurope. You fill out the customs forms, put them in the clear green plastic tags, and attach the tags to your bags. Then just check your bags as usual. In Zürich, the airport personnel pull the cases with the green tags and route them directly to the trains. When you get to your destination, give the receipt to the hotel staff, and they'll pick up your bag for you.

The other option is to pick up your bags as usual at the luggage carousel. Pile them onto a luggage cart and wheel it all the way to the train station in the basement. At the train station, look for the long row of counters and for the counter with the pictogram of the suitcase. They'll ship your bag for 20 chf per bag for 24 hour service (I think they'll get it there that day if you check it before 9 am).

You can ship luggage from most train stations to other stations in Switzerland; I've done it numerous times.>

Re: Discounts with Swiss Pass, Swiss Card and Swiss Transfer Tickets update

Swiss Passes do get 50% discounts on virtually everything that moves in Switzerland if it's not covered 100% but the Jungfraujoch railway above Wengen and Grindelwald the discount is 25% (a change midway in 2007)

But the Swiss Card, which gives a round trip from any border point or airport to anyplace in Switzerland and back (though does not have to be round trip - basically from any border point or any airport to one local by the most direct route and then to any other border point or airport (come into Geneva, go to Interlaken, fly out of Zurich say; or from Germany to Interlaken say and then Interlaken to Italian border points - Swiss Card also gives 50% off everything in between like the Swiss Pass except it does give 50% of the Jungfraujoch trains where Swiss Pass the discount is only 25%

And that could be a key planning tool as to which you may want to buy as the Jungfraujoch train full price is about $130 or so, maybe more since the Swiss Franc is now at par with the dollar!

Swiss Transfer tickets only give the airport/border to anyplace and then to any border/airport and no other discounts anytime

Half-Fare Passes i assume give 50% off the Jungfraujoch but not 100% sure about that

VIP SEATS CORRECTION & GOLDEN PASS

Somewhere up above i recommended being sure to advance reserve way in advance the vaunted VIP seats on the Golden Pass Swiss train (Montreux-Zweissimen with connections to Interlaken and Lucerne)

I normally advise making such reservations in Switzerland because it's a bit cheaper and usually easily done (except Glacier Express which can always be booked up with tour groups IME) and i advised doing in in the U.S. thru BETS or RailEurope, etc.

But now RE says these seats can only be reserved locally and not thru them (or any other agent since RE is the Swiss Railways outlet here)

So for info go to www.swisstravelsystem.com and click on the Golden Pass link - or just Google Golden Pass official site - and see what they say

The VIP seats are next and above the driver and it lets you simulate driving the train. They are usually 8 such seats in the front and 8 in the back (in case you want to visualize being a caboose)

Apparently you can go into the Golden Pass web site (thru swisstravelsystem.com site) and then be able to reserve VIP or other types of seats if you have or will have a pass - just reserve the seats and get you ticket or pass later.

VIP seats are worth all the effort IME

Fantastic information Bob, we have a two night stay at Interlaken planned for early Oct, what would be your recommendation for a scenic day out. We would be happy to do some light walking, trains or buses and lake cruises. Thanks

topping

marie - thanks for nice comments

i'm sure you'll love the area as much as i do - can't help it - the most beautiful place in europe IMO no matter where you stay

I guess i'll get back into the original purpose and describe more scenic trains as well as boats, cables, etc.

And i'll start with the BOB Berner Oberland up from Interlaken as well as the Interlaken area.

Too bad you only have a few days as this area offers a cornucopia of appetizing excursions of all different types - pinpointing one is hard so i'll duly describe several - BTW i love Interlaken though many others prefer a Wengen or up in the hills base.

<what would be your recommendation for a scenic day out. We would be happy to do some light walking, trains or buses and lake cruises. Thanks>

My favorite excursion in the area is to take the train from Interlaken to Lauterbrunnen, then a thrilling large aerial gondola up the cliff a few thousand feet to Grtuschalp where you board a mountain train that hugs the cliff, yielding sweeping views not only down into the deep Lauterbrunnen Valley and also of the awesome glacier-girdled Jungfrau Massif across the valley - there is no more scenic view from a train in europe IMO.
The train takes you to Murren, a famous mountain resort once catering to a British crowd decades ago and today a spiffy resort with scintillating views of the Jungfrau Massif - no cars here - only reached by this cableway-train route.
then take the cableway from Murren down to Gimmelwald, a remote farming hamelt that has gained a lot of fame laterly for its unique atmosphere - out in the midst of glaciers a few miles away and old farm huts, local hotel and hostel, etc.
From Gimmelwald you swoop down to the Lauterbrunnen Valley in a thrilling or from some hair-raising large gondola down to Stechelberg for postal buses back to Lauterbrunnen.
If you have a Swiss Pass the whole transportation from Interlaken and back is 100% covered.
TBC
Mixing in walks on this jaunt
a detour to Stechelbergand more on Gimmelwald, Trummelbach Falls, Lauterbrunnen and Murren.

bookmarking

MORE ON LAUTERBRUNNEN-MURREN-GIMMELWALD-STECHELBERG-LAUTERBRUNNEN LOOP

MIXING IN SOME EASY WALKING
Not hiking but walking. One of the most dramatically scenic walks in the Alps follows generally the course of the Grutschalp-Murren train line - just a few miles from where the gondola from Lauterbrunnen dumps you off - along the cliff's edge but from a very safe distance - fairly flat and good surface you'll often see more folks hiking than taking the train

Winteregg is about half way and is the venue of a renown Alpine hotel and restaurant - known for his Alpine Farmers Breakfast - esp on weekends. You can at least sit on its sun terrace and have refreshments with an intoxicating view of the glacier-girdled Jungfrau across the deep Lauterbrunnen Valley.

NEXT - THE STECHELBERG-TRUMMELBACH FALLS - STAUBBACH FALLS - LAUTERBRUNNEN EASY WALK TO FINISH THE LOOP

After swooping down to the Lauterbrunnen Valley at Stechelberg there should be postal buses waiting to whisk you the few miles back to Lauterbrunnen's train station (for trains for Wengen and Interlaken-Ost) but this makes a lovely and very easy stroll also to end this loop

I've down it a few times and the paved path and side roads follow a gurgling stream and go by farmhouses where folks still cut hay by scythe and cow bells tinkle - you can go by Trummelbach Falls, the torrent of water that is said to be the only drain of the Jungfrau glaciers and the torrent is inside the cliff here

A huge waterfall inside a mountain - well worth the several franc admission fee (though i believe Swiss Pass on the 100% covered days covers the fee in full)

And then you pass on the west side of the valley Staubbach Falls - a terribly high falls coming from the Murren area that could be a torrent or just mist depending on seasons and rainfall, etc.

And of course you could do the whole loop in reverse - Lauterbrunnen - bus or walk to Stechelberg, cable to Gimmelwald - walk or cable to Murren - the Schilthorn detour - walk or train Murren to Grutschalp and cable down to Lauterbrunnen. Really makes no difference i think.

TBC More on Excursions in BOB by public transport


other way

LAKE THUN STEAMER CRUISE
One of my favorite excursions in the BOB (which is much more than the high mountains) is to hop the steamers that leave from behind Interlaken West train station and do a float on placid Lake Thun (one of the two lakes the Inter-Laken lies between, the other being Lake Brienz, which also makes a great but quite different nice cruise.
From Interlaken-West the boat goes out the long canal to the lake and then stops at a few small lakeside resorts (kind of the Florida of Switzerland it seems) including one where you can visit the famous BEATTUS CAVES (sp?) before heading to OBERHOFEN where i suggest making a port call to see this cute flower-bedecked chaleted seaside town with the castle of your dreams hovering over the boat dock.
Have lunch or wander up to the castle or even go for a swim on the town's beach and then board another of the, in season, about 1.5 hourly boats that then take you to THUN.
Thun is a bustling regional town with a fine pedestrian shopping zone and a river gushing thru it and some quaint wooden bridges over it.
You can either return by train from Thun to Interlaken in a few minutes or hop the boat or do a nice hike to nearby SPIEZ, whose awfully dreamy castles caps a vineyard-clad hill looming high above the boat dock.
Spiez is a charmer - though much smaller than Thun and it does require a steep climb to reach its castle. Lots of nice cafes and restos here for lunch or dinner. There is a marked hiking path between Thun and Spiez that traverses lush meadows and follows a ridge overlooking the lake far below
From Spiez again you can hop one of the twice hourly trains to be back in Interlaken in a few minutes or again hop another boat.
Though the towns and cities the boat goes to and by are cute the best thing about this cruise is that on a clear day the awesome Jungfrau Massif towers in all its glacier-girdled majesty high above the idyllic lake - refelcting even in its mirror-like waters. I especially enjoy a late afternoon cruise on a warm day - bringing on some wine and picnic supplies and getting intoxicated on both the wine and the scintillating views of the Jungfrau Massif. A very relaxing way to wind down your day IMO
Boats are covered in full by Swiss Passes.

TBC
The Boats
Lake Brienz
Meiringen, Reichenbach Falls, Ballenberg
Lucerne
Bern - rainy day excursions
Kandersteg
Interlaken itself
Jungfraujoch Train and Experience

There's a whole lot more in the BOB (Berner Oberland Region) than the high mountains that are a magent drawing tourists here - especially on days when weather or muddy trails are not conducive to hiking or taking gondolas up to mountain tops. And

LAKE BRIENZ
Makes a simply wondrous day out - in fact this lake has even more fine sites on its shores than Lake Thun does - and that is something! (Actually there is so much around it that you could spend 2 or 3 great days exploring the area.) So it's easy to hop from the likes of Wengen or Grindelwald down to Interlaken to Interlaken-Ost train station and walk under the tracks thru the passageway that leads to the usually waiting boat that will then head east via a canal to Lake Brienz, a fjord-like body of water with on its south banks steep rocky sides and cliffs.

Boats first seem to head to GEISSBACH FALLS, where from the dock you can either do a short but steep hike or take an antique funicular train up to the famous falls and the equally renown Geissbach Hotel (not sure of name of hotel) and then boat the next of the about every 90 minutes boats in the tourist season (Easter thru mid Oct i think)

and steam over to BRIENZ, a cute city known for its wood-cutters and wood-cut chaleted flower bedecked houses strung along the lake.

From here the boat heads back to Interlaken-Ost stopping at some more cute lakeside resort towns.

But from Brienz there are several great options, such as taking the train to MEIRINGEN and REICHENBACH FALLS or train from there onto INNERTKIRCHEN to traipse thru the famous GLACIER GORGE or from Brienz hop a postal bus to the internationally renown BALLENBERG OPEN-AIR MUSEUM,ubiquitously listed as amongst the world's finest Folk Museums and one that is lovingly set in a meadow overlooking the lake. And finally from Brienz you can take the BRIENZER ROTHORN BAHN, a vintage steam train that chugs up to the Brienzer Rothorn peak, one of Switzerland's renown Alpine outlook points.
And instead of taking the boat back to Interlaken-Ost you can hop the frequent trains that, going along Lake Brienz and with the glacier-studded high peaks looming over its southern shore, one of Switzerland's most scenic train rides IMO/

TBC - Elaborating a bit on each of the Brienz area sights and more on the boats.



Used to have thru boats

Swiss open-air museum Ballenberg | Welcome
Ballenberg – Switzerland as it once was ... Swiss open-air museum Ballenberg | Phone 0041 33 952 10 30 | info@ballenberg.ch | Impressum | Disclaimer.
www.ballenberg.ch/en/Welcome

If you are doing the Ballenberg things as part of this day trip on Lake Brienz and you have a Swiss Pass then be sure to show the pass at the museum as then you can enter free and not pay the 18 franc entry fee or about $20 at today's exchange rates. And the Swiss Pass covers all the components of this trip - say from Wengen or Grindelwald the train to Interlaken, the boat on Lake Brienz, the bus to Ballenberg and back to Brienz and then either train or boat back to Interlaken and train back to the hills.
folks with 3-day Swiss Flexipasses which are usually the best option (vs Half-Fare Cards, Swiss Cards, Swiss Transfer Tickets and buying regular tickets) if coming to the BOB by train from say Zurich or Geneva or other Swiss border points, etc. this would be a good day to use your 3rd flexi day as it would also cover the $20 museum fee (no other of above options cover museum entry)

A BIT ON THE BOATS
These boats are often called 'paddlewheel steamers' and have a paddlewheel that helps propel the boat

(perhaps in show only in many cases, though some are advertised as authentic vintage steam-driven paddlewheel steamers - like on Lake Lucerne i think)

Anyway these steamers have two decks - an open-air upper deck with chairs and a lower deck with the ubiquitous bar-restaurant (some have regular restaurants with table service - others a kiosk) - the bottom deck has small open-air areas in the front and back usually

The upper deck is usually IME reserved for 1st class ticket or passholders only

(As usual on any Swiss train or boat if you have a 2nd class pass or ticket you can pay onboard the difference between the ordinary cost of 1st class vs 2nd class as an upgrade in case you want to move up to 1st class. -Good on trains sometimes where 2nd class is surprisingly mobbed - rarely though.)

Railpasses IME just flash the pass while boarding - or just board if no one inspecting and the conductor will come around and glance at your pass later (and inevitably shoo 2nd class ticket or passholders out of 1st class!)

Boats run fairly frequently in season - Easter thru mid-Oct and lesser in off season - really a skeletal service in winter, if any at all. (the lakes don't freeze but it's because of a lack of tourists as these boats mainly run for tourists, including Swiss resorting on these lakes.)

It seems, with the exception of dinner party-cruises there are no reservations possible and everyone seems to squeeze on - though i rarely see really packed boats.

www.swisstravelsystem.com has more on Switzerland's boats.

Questions About Using a Swiss Pass are covered here as well as Bob Brown's comments on Jungfraujoch trains and various passes. (bob is an expert on the BOB-Jungfrau area - google his name for lots on hiking, transports, etc in the area.)

http://www.fodors.com/forums/
threadselect.jsp?fid=2&tid=35126662

Swiss Passes are rising in price about 8% may 1 so if planning to soon purchase a Swiss Pass you can save by booking your pass before Apr 30, 2008 and be guaranteed that price for six months, the time you have to activate a Swiss Pass after its issuance (and then use a flexipass for one month after that)

sample savings - the popular 3-day flexi saverpass is currently $165 p.p. and will rise $179 or $14 p.p., meaning a savings of $28 if bought before May 1.

LAKE BRIENZ DAY TRIP CONT - THE MEIRINGEN COMPONENT

Actually Lake Brienz is too much for one day to see everything of interest

but anyone can enjoy the boat trip to Brienz and then from there either do Ballenberg, the steam train Brienz up to the Rothorn or from Brienz just head to Meiringen by train (a few minutes)

MEIRINGEN, home of Meringue i guess, is an interesting town just off the lake and is esp known for two things - SHERLOCK HOLMES and a tiny old church in the town square is not a Sherlock Holmes museum - Conan Doyle i guess spent time here when Meiringen was popular with English folk.
And Doyle used the nearby REICHENBACH FALLS as a venue for the deadly tangle between Holmes and arch-enemy Prof Moriarity (sp?) - their fight on a ledge overlooking the huge cascade of water and rocks.
From Meiringen you can hop a bus to the falls or walk the mile or so and then hop an antique funicular up along the course of the falls to the ledge near the top.

NEXT - INNERTKIRCHEN AND THE GLACIER GORGE WALK AND THE GRINDELWALD BUS VIA SCHWRZERALP (SP?) OVER GROSSE SCHIEDEGG TO GRINDELWALD

INNERTKIRCHEN - GLACIER GORGE
From Meiringen you can hop a few-car tram-like train a few minutes to Innertkirchen and the famous Glacier Gorge - a long narrow chasm that you walk thru on boardwalks over a roaring river with the gorge's walls soaring up above you.
Or from Meiringen you can take a postal bus up along Reichenbach Falls and then up a dreamy Alpine Valley to Schwarzwaldalp, a renown dairy farming village - with famous festivities i believe when the cows go back to higher grazing climes in the spring, to return to shelter here during the winter.
This is a wonderful large boulder-strewn valley that stretches up all the way to Grosse Scheidegg, the top lip of the Grindelwald Valley.
The Grindelwald Bus in non-snowy seasons runs a route from Grindelwald via Grosse Scheidegg and Schwarzwaldalp to Meiringen and back. (Railpasses not valid on this bus - but are valid in full on regular postal buses Meiringen to Schwarzwaldalp.
I once spent a long day hiking from Grindelwald up to Grosse Scheidegg and down via Schwarzwaldalp and Reichenbach Falls to Meiringen - and all parts were great so it's easy to mix in some hiking with the buses - the Grosse Scheidegg to Schwarzwaldalp is especially fantastic, with large pine trees and huge boulders and cows, etc.

NEXT THE 3 PASS BUS TOURS

INNERTKIRCHEN GLACIER GORGE

PostBus - 4-Pass Tour (round trip)
Aare Gorge – over thousands of years the waters of the young Aare gradually eroded a passage into the rock between Innertkirchen and Meiringen, ...
www.postbus.ch/en/index_pag/pag-nat-freizeit/
pag-rf-schweizer-alpen/pag-bern-vier-paesse-rundfahrt.htm

Reichenbach Falls - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Reichenbach Falls (Reichenbachfall) near Meiringen, Switzerland, have a total drop of 250 m (820 ft). At 90 m (295.2 ft) the Upper Reichenbach Falls is ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichenbach_Falls

TO SEE WHAT MUSEUMS ARE INCLUDED IN THE SWISS MUSEUM PASS AND THUS FREE TO SWISS PASS HOLDERS ON DAYS OF 100% COVERAGE:

http://www.museumspass.ch/

BOAT SCHEDULES FOR LAKE THUN AND LAKE BRIENZ:

http://www.bls.ch/schiff/fahrplan_e.html

Another fantastic (but time consuming) day trip from the Interlaken area is the Three Pass Bus Tour (or whatever it's called) that starts from Meiringen's post office with a postal bus that goes over one famous pass - the Susten Pass to Goschenen and Andermatt where you change buses to go over the Furkha Pass to Oberwald then another bus over the Grimsel Pass back to Meiringen.

While this is an all-day marathon of dramatic Swiss postal buses it can be also done in parts or as a novel means of leaving the Grindelwald-Interlaken-Meiringen area if going on to places like Zurich, Lugano, the Glacier Express Route, etc.

In the next few posts i'll try to outline how these buses can be used for day excursions and also as a means to get to the Interlaken-BOB area without going the way nearly everyone else does - by car or train to Interlaken from the east, west or north - you can indeed go south from the BOB via these bus routes (or drive as well)

A NOTE ON SWISS POSTAL BUSES
Like the ones that run this route - the distinct yellow buses like the Beatles put on one of their covers

the buses with the ooog-gah horns they sound when going around sharp curves to warm oncoming traffic to get the heck out of the way

These postal buses, yes run by the Swiss post office, used to carry mail and perhaps still do but they are also Switzerland's bus service, running from train stations to every burg in the country - if you can't get there by train you can by bus.

Swiss Passes are valid in full on the overwhelming number of postal buses, though in Alpine areas like with the Three Pass Bus thing from Meiringen there is a surcharge of SF10 called an Alpine Ticket levied on passes.

reservations are sometimes required but often not. Conflicting info on whether the three pass buses require reservations but in Meiringen at the bus depot i asked and they said reservations are not required and somehow they put more buses on, etc.

More on buses to follow

THE THREE PASS BUSES - You can do it on your own or take special tours such as the one by:
Jungfrau Tours AG. Strandbadstrasse 3. 3800 Interlaken. Switzerland ... This yellow postal bus crosses three major Alpine passes (Furka-Grimsel-Grosse ...
www.jungfrautours.ch/index.php?content=panorama_trains&lang=en

SUSTEN PASS
GRIMSEL PASS
FURKA PASS

USING AS WAY INTO OR OUT OF GRINDELWALD, MEIRINGEN - GLACIER EXPRESS, ETC.


OTHER GREAT POSTAL BUS RIDES IN SWITZERLAND

SUSTEN PASS PHOTOS

Switzerland / Susten Pass pictures from switzerland photos on webshots
Switzerland / Susten Pass pictures published by olebyskov.
travel.webshots.com/album/58549275cLcPCl

Photo of Susten Pass, Switzerland, travel stock photograph, photos ...
Gary Cook Photography - Photographs of Switzerland, Photo Susten Pass, Switzerland, Photos, Photograph, Stock, Image, Images, Travel, Picture, Pictures.
www.garycook.co.uk/Europe/Switzerland/photo1-4.html

GRIMSEL PASS PHOTOS AND DESCRIPTION

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimsel_Pass

FURKHA PASS PHOTOS

Furkha, Grimsel, Brunig Passes pictures from friends & fun photos ... pictures published by fergus_mcdougall. ...
good-times.webshots.com/album/552300497aoUOKv

HaloPhoto
Friday saw the grand exploration of the glorious nation of Switzerland ... Bahn where the route goes narrow gauge over the Furkha Pass to Andermatt and ...
www.markhewitt.fotopic.net/

SWISS POSTAL BUSES OFFICIAL SITE

PostBus - Home
Swiss Post – Navigation and service unit. Go directly to home page ... Starting 9 December 2007, postal buses will leave every half hour from the Visp ...
www.postbus.ch

TO DO THE GRIMSEL AND FURKA PASSES for schedules on the postbus.ch bus schedule part put in Meiringen Bahnhof and Andermatt as the destination and this should route you first on a bus to Oberwald, a stop on the Glacier Express train line where you change buses to go over the Furka Pass to Andermatt

From Andermatt the bus goes over the Susten Pass back to Meiringen

Note that postbus.ch search thing also gives train connections so if you put in Meiringen and Andermatt it will also give you completely rail routings via Spiez, Brig, etc.

Bus routes will have stops on the Grimsel, Susten passes, etc.

The site gives fares as well:

Meiringen-Andermatt via Oberwald = CHF 49.20 one way; double round trip - Swiss Pass covers the fare but there is about a CHF10 Alpine ticket passholders must buy.

postbus.ch indicates also which buses need advance reservations and which ones even take reservations.

The post buses from Meiringen take two routes to Andermatt - one via the Grimsel Pass and (changing in Oberwald) then over Furka Pass and another one up the Susten Pass via Goschenen (a stop on the Zurich-Lugano Gotthard Tunnel main line) and from Andermatt another bus to Oberwald - so to do the whole Three Pass Spectacular you'd combine these two routes.

But there are loads of other options i'll present next time.

Dear Pal,

Thank you for this most informative guide. We are lucky to have you on Fodor's.

I have a question that I know is very subjective, but perhaps you can help.

I have a pretty good fear of heights but I'm usually okay in trains esp. if I don't sit by the window or don't look for certain steep passes.

I'm thinking of taking the William Tell Express in two weeks and am a little bit nervous about the swiveling seats and those breathtaking views, etc. I'm wondering just how steep and spectacular this is...


I did take the Gornergrat in Zermatt and did just fine and felt so silly for worrying so much...and I did fine on the train to Zermatt from Zurich although I did stop looking at certain spots...

Any thoughts? I do love a great Swiss train trip...sigh...

I hate to miss the trip and am actually thinking I'll take some pills I use for flying if I need to...

Sincerely,

determined, but a fraidy cat
AKA
gruezi

No problems with fear of heights with the Wilhelm Tell Express. Not at all.

Ingo,

Thank you so much for saying that!!

Do you or a loved one suffer from this?

gruezi

gruezi - thanks for your nice comments. Ingo is a real Fodor's treasure in posting about Switzerland and Germany - lives in Dresden i think.

anyway yes the Wm Tell train is a mainline broad-gauge train line and not the narrow-gauge tiny trains like the Gornergracht train

Broad-gauge means wider tracks and bigger mainline trains that just can't go over steep twisting routes as tinier gauge trains can and the Wm Tell really does not climb steeply as it has the long Gotthard Tunnel to burrow under the Alps and not over them. Where it does climb steeply, in loops, it's actually inside a tunnel.

Dear Pal,

Thanks for your help on this.

I'm looking forward to a fun trip.


gruezi

gruezi - when we were in Swizterland last July - it rained the trains on the route we were taking got washed out. Dh still felt we should go up to the chocolate factory and cheese factory. I said we should pass.

Noo... dh insists on going on a bus to someplace we have no idea we are going..the roads were very wet - very twisting... the bus was CRAMMED full of smelly people -I have an ultra senstive nose a horrible thing to travel with,
We get dropped off at a store - bus driver has NO idea where we need to be - just lets us off (not kidding) we ask around, hike up a giant mountain, the entire time dd is being a HUGE whiner - It is raining, I am mutter under my breath -

One must recall dd was sick, and that is how we ended up in Swizterland anyway - we were suppose to be in South Africa! She is coughing up a storm.

We finally end up in walking about 30 minutes and finding an every so lame cheese "factory" - trying to get a train back is not working either - never make it to the chocolate factory.

I so feel your pain...how a xanax would have helped that day on the bus. I was surely going to plunge to my death off a cliff.

Dawn,

I can really empathize!!

I learned an important lesson in Spain. My husband by his own admission, isn't good with maps, planning, or vacationing, yet somehow whenever he is along we all defer to him. I have no idea why. I have decided I will be in "charge" on future family trips and speak up a bit more. After 20 years you start to figure a few things out I guess

I am going to try the William Tell Express as it is an outing with a women's group and we gab so much I'm sure I'll be distracted for the tunnel and the heights - yes, I don't like long tunnels either. OTOH, I hate to miss anything so I try to forge ahead despite my little phobias...

I'll have my "mother's little helpers" along just in case.

g.

gruezli - i suggest you instead of doing the William Tell go to Interlaken and Murren and do the Schilthorn cable - this is one of the less chilling rides in europe and you'll love every inch of the trip

Well - we have only been married 11 years - going on 12 - perhaps by 20 dh will learn to defer to me too.

I too "refuse" to permit my phobias for moving forward - but it can cause a bit of a panic at times.

I am sure you will enjoy your trip.

Pal,

Oh my... I'm not sure I'm ready for a cable car...

Are you sure?

gruezi

gruezi - i was fooling by recommending what to me would be one of the very scariest for you cable ways in Europe - the longest one that goes over desolated terrain to the icy outpost in the Alps - the Schilthorn, of James Bond fame.

these are tiny gondolas of a few persons each and often they stop for a minute or so and leave you dangling over the ground from a few hundred feet up - i myself do not really like heights and feel comforted everytime the gondolas start moving again.

No you are NOT ready for gondolas, yet, but there is always hope.

Pal,

Good think I checked with you

I would have had to hunt you down and kill you!!!

Thanks for the other info.

gruezi

PalenQ - I was having heart palpatations just reading!!!

I can see Guerzi and I - OMG.

Anway back to THREE PASS BUSES IN INTERLAKEN/JUNGFRAU REGION

You can use these buses are novel ways to access or exit the Jungfrau - Interlaken - Berner Oberland region

Scenarios:

1- From Grindelwald take the Grindelwald Bus that goes via a tiny paved track up the lip of the Grindelwald amphitheater east to Grosse Shceidegg - sashaying slowly up on the terribly twisting path and then descends thru the gorgeous valley via Scharwzdalp (sp?) to Meiringen to join the buses there

2- From Grindelwald or Lauterbrunnen or points above it like Wengen, Murren by train to Interlaken-Ost then by train to Meiringen to join the buses

3- take the buses via either the Grimsel Pass route or the Susten Pass route to join the Glacier Express train route or to join the Simplon main line route to Zurich or Lugano/Milano

The Susten Pass bus goes to Goschenen first - a stop on the Zurich/Lucerne to Lugano and Milan Simplon main-line and then goes to Andermatt, a stop on the Glacier Express route to Chur/St Moritz or Brig and Zermatt

The Grimsel pass bus goes first to Oberwald, a stop on the Glacier Express route.

So these two routes make novel access or leaving ways from Interlaken-Grindelwald, etc. other than the usual way out via train via Spiez or the Brunig Pass route to Lucerne.

SUSTEN VS GRIMSEL PASSES

Though both bus rides start out from Meiringen before diverging on different pass roads and each making rather dramatic climbs on twisting roads - where as the bush rounds a hairpin bend the driver honks with the weird goog-ga long horn to warn oncoming vehicles that a wide vehicle is going to be turning. You do have to be amazed by these drivers' skills and calm nerves.
To me though the Grimsel Pass was more dramatic, esp because the bus parks right over a large dammed up lake near the summit - on a slab overlooking the lake whilst stopping for the usual pit stop every hour or so.
So folks going from say Interlaken to Zurich or Lugano or Milano or St Moritz or Zermatt and wishing for an untraditional but to me much more thrilling route consider hopping these buses from Meiringen, only a short train ride from Interlaken-Ost.

Keep in mind that these buses are all season - not operating in winter due to passes being blocked by snow

even one early Sep when i had planned to hop the buses and do the Three Pass Tour i showed up in Meiringen as instructed by the Interlaken post office only to find that even that early the passes were blocked for a few days due to an extra early snow storm. So check to see if passes are open in say May, early June or Sep.

BUSES AND LUGGAGE
If not day tripping on the postal buses up and back and using them as a means of escape or landing in the Interlaken area then baggage is no problem - the buses have a large undercroft for them - there may well be a charge per bag, i can't remember but ample room for the largest of luggage.

NEXT- A POSTAL BUS RIDE FROM HELL

GROSSE SHEIDEGG RUNDFAHRT
Or in English the Grosse Sheidegg Rountrip (kind of love using the German word Rundfahrt - meaning of course round trip)

For folks staying in Grindelwald or Lauterbrunnen or anywhere including Interlaken this is a tremendous loop that goes by bus starts in Interlaken and treks up to Grindelwald and then climbs the sinuous small path to Grosse Scheidegg, then down via more small lanes (where autos can't go) the Rosenlaui valley via Schwarzwaldalp to Meiringen then to Brienz.

At Brienz you board a lake steamer that takes you to Interlaken-Ost station

more on this next time - a really great experience that shows you the wilds of the Jungfrau region.

the most recent brochure i have on the Grosse Scheidegg Round trip described above gives the following prices:

CHF 87 for thoseover 16
CHF 76 for Swiss Pass holders, Swiss Cards, Half Fare Cards, BOB Regionalpass
CHF 57 kid 4-16

but check www.grindelwaldbus.ch for current fares and timetables

One day far back in my youth i hiked from Grindelwald up to Grosse Scheidegg and then down via Schwarzwaldalp and the Rosenlaui valley to Reichenbach Falls and down to Meiringen

Though this is a great hike - esp the Rosenlaui with its famous Glacier Gorge it's very energetic, esp the steep climb to Grosse Shcheidegg - but if you take the Grindelwald Bus (which does take local fares) and then hike down the gentle enough sloping valley to Reichenbach Falls and then walk down along the falls it can be a near all day walk that is managaeable for the average fit person.
So use the bus and mix in some hiking as well. Or do it all by bus - to me the Schwarzwaldalp - Rosenlaui valley is the most gorgeous countryside in the Berner Oberland that i've seen.

Note that the Grindelwald Bus is not covered by a Swiss Pass, being one of the few i've encountered that was not.

at least covered in full - perhaps 50% off but not sure. Not sure about BOB regional pass or half-fare cards either or Swiss Cards - will try to check

A FANTASTIC BUT ALL DAY EXCURSION FROM INTERLAKEN/GRINDELWALD/WENGEN, ETC.

And one i took not long ago - but only for folks who love to travel on scenic buses and trains for much of the day.

Take the train to Meiringen and hop the Grimsel Pass bus to Oberwald, a stop on the Glacier Express rail line and take the regular trains that run hourly on this line to Betten, and from that station hop a very long funicular that runs in two sections to Bettermeralp - walk thru this flower-boxed chaleted pristine summer and winter resort to an aerial cableway that thrillingly swoops you up to a vista point awesomely overlooking the Aletsch Glacier - and you can see it stretch for miles all the way down from the Jungfraujoch - Europe's largest glacier i believe.

From the vista there are paths that steeply descend to the glacier itself - but just to see it from the viewing area - the glacier right down below redefines AWESOME to me.

MORE ON THIS EXCURSION NEXT

I must say that standing on that ledge high above the huge Aletsch Glacier below was something else - could hear the glacier cracking, etc. and see the detritus it was slowly carrying down to the river at Betten - the Rhone i believe

anyway after returning to Betten i hopped on the next train to slowly descend down to Brig - just a few miles away and then hopped the train via the Lotschberg Tunnel back to Interlaken via Spiez.

As i've described before in this thread, the mainline broad-gauge route from there via the Lotschberg Tunnel route is to me one of the most gorgeous mainlines in Europe - esp when leaving Brig the train snakes up along the cliff's edge for several torturous miles and you see the broadening Rhone Valley spreading out below - kind of like flying out of Brig - then the tunnel and the fine Kandersteg Valley to Spiez and Interlaken.

Also as noted a new longer tunnel recently opened so you now go from Brig (or really neighboring Visp) in one long long tunnel all the way to Fruitigen near Spiez, missing all that wonderful scenery and thrills on the Lotschberg old route - so if you want to lessen the trip by an hour or so take the new tunnel - if not hop the old mainline - trains are frequent on either route i believe.

For a picture of the overlook viewpoint over the Altesch Glacier right near the top of the aerial cableway station from Bettermeralp:

http://www.bettmeralp.ch/d/unescowelterbe/

Bonjour Bob! I'm packing for France this year, but my husband informed me that he MUST return to Switzerland next year. I am planning to stay a week in the Val D'Herens hiking daily and then am considering 5 days hiking in the Aletsch area. We prefer small villages, but really don't care where we are based as long as we can get about easily via train and bus with passes. Any suggestions for a base in Aleasch?

LLindaC - no as i am not terribly familiar with those areas but just ephermally taken trains and funiculars, etc around a bit - i too want to explore those less ballyhooed for foreign tourists areas sometime

i suggest you post that separately as well since i assume few folks are reading this but you'd get some expert input as a separate post

have a nice trip to France! Bonne Route!

EXAMPLE USING BUSES IN OR OUT OF INTERLAKEN AREA

Here are some sample schedules of how this can easily be done

Lv Meiringen bus depot close to train station daily 9:20, ar Goschenen train station at 12:42

lv Goschenen by Gotthard line trains at 12:52 and arrive Lugano at 14:45

or lv Goschenen by Gotthard line south to Zurich - lv Goschenen at 13:05, ar Zurich 14:51

there are later buses and trains at the same time after each hour throughout the day at Goschenen

Postal bus schedules:

http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=navclient&gfns=1&q=swiss+postal+buses+schedules

Those departing or going to Grindelwald should investigate taking the Grindelwald Bus over the Grosse Scheidegg to Meiringen to hook up with the buses to Oberwald, Goschenen and Andermatt

http://www.grindelwaldbus.ch/seiten/Fahrplan%20Scheidegg%20Sommer.htm

ex leave Grindelwald 7:50 or 8:50 ar Meiringen 9:25 and 10:25

Pal, Did you see my post to you about Gemeinde Tageskarte? It's under another thread about the half fare card.

No i did not and will look it up now

thanks a bunch

Schuler- thanks for the post i have copied here:

Pal, I've seen long lines of people wanting to buy Swiss passes at the Zürich airport train station. The lines at the Zürich Hauptbahnhof seem to be shorter.

By the way, many locals don't buy half fare cards anymore. They use Gemeinde Tageskarte, available in their towns. Many Gemeindes offer 3 Tageskarte per day at prices between SFr. 28 and 41. It's a first come first serve situation and you need to reserve ahead.

I've found a website that shows places where you can reserve them on-line. None of the Gemeindes in my area are on the list, which shows that these are just a few of the places that offer these cards throughout Switzerland.

Some Gemeindes only allow local residents to buy the cards, others don't care.

http://www.tageskarte-gemeinde.ch/

PalenQ
Date: 06/02/2008, 10:12 am
Schuler wrote:

<By the way, many locals don't buy half fare cards anymore. They use Gemeinde Tageskarte, available in their towns. Many Gemeindes offer 3 Tageskarte per day at prices between SFr. 28 and 41. It's a first come first serve situation and you need to reserve ahead.>

Schuler - please elaborate on this - the site seems all in German

you talk about these Day Cards - and why folks are not buying Half-Fare Cards - these are strictly local, very local passes, i presume and thus if someone were staying all in one place it would, if they cover things in full, be better than the 1/2 Fare Card.

So i assume these TagesKartes cover everything locally in full - lifts, buses, trains, funiculars, etc.

thanks

Author: schuler
Date: 06/02/2008

The Tageskarte are for residents of each community listed. If the Tageskarten are not reserved 5 days before the valid date, non-community residents are also eligible for purchase.

The prices vary from Gemeinde to Gemeinde.

Looking through the fine print, I haven't seen anywhere that this is non valid to non-Swiss citizens.

The Tageskarte are valid for the same transport systems as the Half fare cards.

Thanks Schuler (who lives in Switzerland at least i believe and is a great resource on Swiss travel system.

A SWISS POSTAL BUS RIDE FROM HELL

Or so it seemed... usually on Swiss postal buses on Alpine pass routes you have a mixture of tourists and locals using the bus for short hop transportation - including the proverbial farmer types in overalls, etc.

So it was a bit bizarre when i turned up at Meiringen's bus depot to hop the Sisten Pass bus to Goschenen that i spotted a group of young American teens - a Jewish group from NYC with two rabbis along to chaperone.

This is not surprising but the behavior of these kids was - they all, about 15 or so, were puffing cigarettes outside the bus and cussing and swearing - some had boomboxes playing rap type songs - they were just the atypical group of American kids touring Europe.

And i thought they must be doing something else here rather than hopping the Susten Pass bus - but when the bus driver opened the doors they indeed board and took seats throughout the bus - with their earplugs vibration rather loudly with music, etc.

The youngish rabbi in control and i say that loosely, seemed to get along well and relish his role.

TBC
jewish people rabbi
talk of biking down the pass to Goschenen
pit stop puffing en masse
slouched over oblivious

The kids were not the typical teen group you see traveling around Europe but were rather rambunctious loud noisy kids oblivious to the scenery they were going thru. Their heads were pretty much in their video games they had - the rabbi tried in vain several times to interest them in something they were going by - they'd look up for a sec and head back down.

the kids spread out throughout the bus and the normally proper Swiss folks aboard did raise their eyebrows a bit when the kids were acting like teens in a play field, lunch room, etc. Loud, loud, loud - music blaring, yelling obscenities at each other, etc.

One of the kid's had a bicycle with him for some reason and when he got on after putting the bike in the under the bus storage depot, the driver told him he'd have to buy a ticket for the bike

the kid freaked out and a lively argument with the driver ensued. The rabbi just sat there saying nothing.

The kid finally had to pay and then went to his seat cussing the driver 'xxxx rip-off', etc. And the rabbi just sat there.

At one time when the bus had to slowly manouver around some traffic snarl one kid spotted some Jewish people (they had skull caps on) he shouted to the rabbi "Rabbi - Jewish people!") the rabbi waved to the Jews outside the window.

When the bus took a pit stop all the kids got off and it seemed that all of them quickly started puffing away on cigarettes.

No this was not your typical high school tour group but what happened next was TOTALLY amazing

TBC

Inserting this here for future reference - it gives the cost of Swiss Passes bought from Swiss Rail at stations in Switzerland - in CHF or Swiss Francs, currently officially $1.05 = 1 CHF plus 3% cost of changing money would be $1.08 - call is $1.10 to each CHF

www.swiss-pass.ch

A quick look at www.swiss-pass.ch for prices of Swiss Pass sold by Swiss Railways in Switzerland shows a rather significant IMO difference in prices and substantial savings by buying the pass outside of Switzerland before leaving home:

Sampled one pass - a 3-day single adult Swiss Flexi costs 249 CHF

vs Raileurope $210

currently officially $1.05 = 1 CHF plus 3% cost of changing money would be $1.08 - call is $1.10 to each CHF

ths 249 x 1.10 = $274

or $64 more

i must be doing something wrong - will check more thoroughly and make more than this one random comparison - anyway take a look yourself and see if i am right - hard to believe it so.

RailEurope i think would add $18 s&h for orders that inexpensive but other agents do not - in any case i always suggest budgeteuropetravel.com for their expertise IME and no mail fee i think except on rush orders.

WHAT'S THAT BIG YELLOW EYEBALL POSTER DOING ON MOST REGIONAL TRAINS?

When several years ago i first started seeing the large pictogram of a black eyeball on a yellow poster on the front walls of many Swiss train cars i was perplexed until reading the fine print that this meant that the train is self-controlled - there are not conductors to check tickets usually on these regional trains and you are supposed to validate your ticket yourself before boarding by sticking it into the self-canceling machines.

And if you don't and there are the not all that uncommon spot checks by railway officials to catch scufflaws then you'd have to pay the fare plus a hefty penalty fine to boot.

So if you have a Swiss Flexipass you then must also have your date filled in in case the sleuth squad descends on the train. Otherwise with a pass you can just hop on any train anytime in Switzerland - with the exception of the few Specialty trains like the Glacier Express where you must have reservations and pay a supplement with a pass as well.

COPYING A CURRENT THREAD Q ON "PANORAMIC TRAINS IN SWITZERLAND" - ARE THEY WORTH IT?

Panorama trains in Switzerland
Author: indiancouple
Date: 06/12/2008

We will be doing several train journeys in Switzerland during our upcoming trip in August. One of them will be Luzern to Interlaken (via Brunig, Meiringen). There is a convenient train at 8:55 am, but there is a Panorama train at 9:55 am. Are these Panorama trains worth it ? If it really gives a superior experience, we do not mind delaying our plans by an hour. But if it is more of a marketing gimmick, we would rather catch the earlier train. Any views ?

Author: PalenQ

I'd say it makes a difference on what scenic line and then it's about half marketing gimmick and half a more bizarre experience

that said between Luzern and Interlaken there is not the dramatic scenery that there are on other mountain lines where seeing something out of the domed 'panoramic' glass ceilings may be worth it.

On this Brunig Pass line the views are out the huge side windows on every train - can't see Panoramic cars being much a plus

You would need i think a first class pass or ticket to use the panoramic cars on this train - if have a 2nd class pass you'd have to pay a upgrade to first class.

there may be some panoramic cars in 2nd class but not sure - there are on Glacier Express for instance.

Author: schuler

The windows are bigger, the seats a bit more comfortable and it's air-conditioned.

If I were going on a different line (Andermatt - Zermatt) I might consider the upgrade. The trip is quite scenic to Interlaken with lots of nice chalet houses, fields, valleys and mountains, but it's not the spectacular scenery you get on other lines.

Take the convenient train.

Author: swandav2000

Hi indiancouple,

Also consider that, in the Panoramic coaches, the windows do not open. I've heard that the a/c is not very strong and the cars can be stiffling in August. On the regular trains, the windows do open to let in fresh air.

Author: PalenQ

Ann Panormaic cars are inevitably stuffed full

i actually prefer the regular cars and regular trains over the same routes where i can scoot from side to side for changing views on each side of the train

On the stuffy full panoramic cars on special trains i'm stuck in my seat.

Give me the regular cars anytime - and no reservations hassles and costs.

Author: indiancouple
Date: 06/12/2008, 11:08 am

Thanks everyone for the very quick response. I checked, and it seems they do have 2nd class travel on the panorama coaches on this train. So there will be no extra charge. But if there is no particular advantage, we might as well catch the more convenient train.
I like the idea of openable windows on the regular trains. Sounds more comfortable, and easier to click pictures out of an open window.

SCENIC SWISS TRAINS IN A NUTSHELL

I think i'll give my (subjective) rankings and brief descriptions of what i consider to be Switzerland's most scenic rail trips.

1- Bernina Express
2- Jungfrau Railways Interlaken-Grindelwald-Kleine Scheidegg-Wengen-Lauterbrunnen-Interlaken
3- Gornegrat Railway Zermatt
4- Grutschalp-Murren
5- Martigny-Chamonix
6- Chur-St Moritz
7- Brig-Zermatt
8- Interlaken-Spiez-Lotschberg (old line)
9- Brunig Pass Interlaken-Lucerne
10- Golden Pass Interlaken-Zweissimmen-Montreux
11- Gotdthard line Lucerne/Zurich to Lugano
12- Glacier Express Chur-Brig
13- Rhone Valley line Montreux-Brig
14- Centovalli Domodossola-Locarno
15 - Landquart-Davos-Filisur
Brief descriptions as to why i consider these scenic to follow

Note: Appenzell Train and St Moritz-Scuol Tarasp lines not Rated - have not taken it.

As always interested in others opinions on these or other scenic Swiss trains!

And to add to the scenic train list - the train from Lake Lucerne to Rigi

and scenic trains i've not taken - train from Alpnachstad up Mt Pilatus

"And to add to the scenic train list - the train from Lake Lucerne to Rigi"


Hi Pal,

Just to clarify, there's the Vitznauer Rigi Bahn that goes from Vitznau to Rigi Kulm. You can get to Vitznau either by car, boat or bus. Vitznau lies directly on the Vierwaldstättersee (Lake of Lucerne).

There's another Rigi train that starts in Goldau and goes up to Rigi Kulm. You can get to Goldau by car or train.

The Vitznauer Rigi Bahn is a bit more scenic but the Goldauer Rigi Bahn is more accessible.

Schuler - merci

I was remiss not to clarify the Rigi bahns like you did - i have taken the train from the lake up - very nice and have walked from the summit to Goldau but not taken the train. thanks for clairfying that. Did not you say that you lived near Arth-Goldau?

I probably have mentioned this elsewhere but i just got my first Newsletter SBB (Swiss Federal Railways e-mail newsletter and found it full of interesting stuff and special deals on transport things all over Switzerland

to get on the free subcription list

mail@newsletter.sbb.ch

And for those of you who'd like to view it before subscribing, here's the link:
July 2008 newsletter:
http://tinyurl.com/5jllfh

Yes, I do indeed live near Arth-Goldau. Drove through it today and will be there tomorrow.

This thread's tag only

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BERNINA PASS TRAIN LINE IS NOW A UNESCO WORLD HERITAGE SITE

Though UNESCO normally reserves these honorary denatations for buildings or scenic areas it just announced that the Bernina Pass railway is now a World Heritage Site.

It cited the line's many tunnels and viaducts, including some famous 360 degree viaducts built on pillars.

I'm not sure yet whether it's only the St-Moritz to Tirano, Italy portion or if the whole Chur-St-Moritz-Tirano Rhatische Bahn line is included.

But anyway a testimony to the line's dramatic beauty.

topping upon request of AA Frequent Flier

SCENIS SWISS TRAINS IN A NUTSHELL

THE BERNINA PASS TRAIN

To me the most gorgeous of many gorgeous Swiss trains is the Bernina Pass Route between St Moritz and Tirono, Italy, going up and over of course the Bernina Pass. This rail line is said to be the only rail line to cross the Alps north to south - thus trundling up and over the Alpine spine between northern and southern Europe rather than tunneling under the Alps.
St Moritz to Tirano, Italy is only about two hours and though going to Tirano is a good way to take trains from there to Lake Como (Bellagio) or Milan and on i suggest doing this as a day trip from St Moritz and making a whole day out of exploring the Bernina Pass glacier top of the world atmosphere.
You can get off near the pass at either of two stations - Bernina Ospiz or Alp Grum and do a popular walk around an Alpine lake and to the base of a glacier.
Lots of folks walk between the two stations also on fairly flat wide paths.
The Bernina Pass line, and the special Bernina Express services, as well as detailed on open-air cars on ordinary trains can be found far above in this thread where i took a very detailed look at this amazing rail line.

In recent months a poster who is extremely knowledgeable about Swiss travel and train, etc. has re-appeared on Fodor's - DalaiLama - click on his/her name for lots of great insights and links on Swiss topics. Someone said he/she even speaks Swiss German (or writes) it like the Deutscher Swiss (?)