Normandy and England in November Trip Planning
Feb 7th, 2015, 09:36 AM
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Normandy and England in November Trip Planning
I'm in the beginning stage of planning a 12-day trip to Normandy and England with my mom (I'm in my mid 30's and my mom is in her mid 60's), for last week of November and half of first week of December, starting with four and half days in Normandy (from Caen), then afterwards, taking the train from Rouen to Paris and then the Eurostar to England. Both my mom and I have been to England before, but not together; my itinerary from the previous trip is the last post here (http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...planning.cfm); my mom spent a week in London about 15 years ago (also during one of the colder months), went to museums mostly and did a day trip to Greenwich. We're used to traveling during the shoulder season and last Thanksgiving week we went to Berner Oberland and Copenhagen and had a great time.
I need some help with the England portion of the trip; please take a look at my current plan:
Day 6: Afternoon travel from Rouen to Canterbury (via Ashford International), sleep in Canterbury
Day 7: Canterbury sightseeing during the day, evensong service at the cathedral, evening train to and sleep in Dover
Day 8 (Saturday): Dover Castle in the morning, afternoon travel to and sleep in Bath
Day 9: Roman Bath Museum and Bath Abbey (choral matin) in the morning, Cardiff Castle in the afternoon, sleep in Cardiff
Day 10: St. Fagans National History Museum in Cardiff, then evening train to London
Day 11: Windsor Castle in the morning, Museum of London Docklands in the afternoon, Selfridges in the early evening for early Christmas shopping
Day 12: Fly back home
Initial questions:
1. Is there a rail pass that would cover our travels in England? If yes, does the pass cover peak time travel (before 9:30 AM) at all? Would the pass cover trip to Cardiff?
2. I think there was a Windsor Castle combination rail ticket from London but I can't find it anymore on the rail company website. If it still exists, is the train ticket part of this combination ticket an all-day zone 6 unlimited travel pass (like the one for Hampton Court Palace)?
3. Is the Royal Crescent in Bath worth seeing (I'm not a Jane Austen fan in particular)? If yes, I would consider adding extra half day to the itinerary, but I went to the crescent in Edinburgh (can't remember the name of the neighborhood now), didn't go inside of course, and thought was interesting to see it for the first time, but not enough to want to take a long walk just to see it again while in Bath if it's very similar (I think it's 0.7 miles each way from the Roman Bath Museum to the Royal Crescent).
4. Christmas markets in Bath and Cardiff will have started by the time we get there. Should I try to go see them? I walked through the one near the London Eye when I was there last time and it was okay...last Christmas we went to the one in Prague and the New Year market in Vienna and we loved them.
I'm sure I'll have more questions later on, but thank you in advance for your input.
I need some help with the England portion of the trip; please take a look at my current plan:
Day 6: Afternoon travel from Rouen to Canterbury (via Ashford International), sleep in Canterbury
Day 7: Canterbury sightseeing during the day, evensong service at the cathedral, evening train to and sleep in Dover
Day 8 (Saturday): Dover Castle in the morning, afternoon travel to and sleep in Bath
Day 9: Roman Bath Museum and Bath Abbey (choral matin) in the morning, Cardiff Castle in the afternoon, sleep in Cardiff
Day 10: St. Fagans National History Museum in Cardiff, then evening train to London
Day 11: Windsor Castle in the morning, Museum of London Docklands in the afternoon, Selfridges in the early evening for early Christmas shopping
Day 12: Fly back home
Initial questions:
1. Is there a rail pass that would cover our travels in England? If yes, does the pass cover peak time travel (before 9:30 AM) at all? Would the pass cover trip to Cardiff?
2. I think there was a Windsor Castle combination rail ticket from London but I can't find it anymore on the rail company website. If it still exists, is the train ticket part of this combination ticket an all-day zone 6 unlimited travel pass (like the one for Hampton Court Palace)?
3. Is the Royal Crescent in Bath worth seeing (I'm not a Jane Austen fan in particular)? If yes, I would consider adding extra half day to the itinerary, but I went to the crescent in Edinburgh (can't remember the name of the neighborhood now), didn't go inside of course, and thought was interesting to see it for the first time, but not enough to want to take a long walk just to see it again while in Bath if it's very similar (I think it's 0.7 miles each way from the Roman Bath Museum to the Royal Crescent).
4. Christmas markets in Bath and Cardiff will have started by the time we get there. Should I try to go see them? I walked through the one near the London Eye when I was there last time and it was okay...last Christmas we went to the one in Prague and the New Year market in Vienna and we loved them.
I'm sure I'll have more questions later on, but thank you in advance for your input.
Feb 7th, 2015, 10:22 AM
#2
have you checked that your itinerary is even doable?
eg - Day 6 [afternoon] you are planning to go from Rouen to Paris then catch the Eurostar and end up in Canterbury? I used bahn.de and got travel times of between 5 ½ and 7 hours, with 2-5 changes of train - which is going to make you pretty tired for the next day.
then Day 8, you want to travel back to Dover, and then again in the afternoon, travel to Bath. again, my friends at bahn.de tell me that it's going to take at least 4 hours with 1-2 changes of train. All this just to spend the next morning in Bath [which for a Jane Austen fan doesn't seem very long] and then go onto Cardiff....etc. etc.
you know what i'm going to say don't you? your itinerary looks ok, but you need twice as long as you've given yourselves to make all that travelling worthwhile. Personally I would drop Dover and Cardiff, but you certainly need to trim quite a lot unless you want to need another holiday when you get home.
eg - Day 6 [afternoon] you are planning to go from Rouen to Paris then catch the Eurostar and end up in Canterbury? I used bahn.de and got travel times of between 5 ½ and 7 hours, with 2-5 changes of train - which is going to make you pretty tired for the next day.
then Day 8, you want to travel back to Dover, and then again in the afternoon, travel to Bath. again, my friends at bahn.de tell me that it's going to take at least 4 hours with 1-2 changes of train. All this just to spend the next morning in Bath [which for a Jane Austen fan doesn't seem very long] and then go onto Cardiff....etc. etc.
you know what i'm going to say don't you? your itinerary looks ok, but you need twice as long as you've given yourselves to make all that travelling worthwhile. Personally I would drop Dover and Cardiff, but you certainly need to trim quite a lot unless you want to need another holiday when you get home.
Feb 7th, 2015, 10:23 AM
#3
two initial comments:
>>Day 7: Canterbury sightseeing during the day, evensong service at the cathedral, evening train to and sleep in Dover
Day 8 (Saturday): Dover Castle in the morning, afternoon travel to and sleep in Bath<<
I wouldn't bother packing and moving to Dover -- It ain't that nice a place to stay. I'd stay a 2nd night in Canterbury and take an early morning train to Dover. There isn't a Left Luggage facility at the station but last I knew you can leave your bags here http://www.dovereurochange.co.uk (But I'd contact them to make sure they still provide the service - if not, then maybe do move to Dover for that night . . .)
>>Day 11: Windsor Castle in the morning, Museum of London Docklands in the afternoon, Selfridges in the early evening for early Christmas shopping<<
Really difficult. Windsor can't really be 'done' in the morning since it opens at 9:45 and easily takes 3 hours to see then the train back to London. So don't count on being back at Paddington or Waterloo til around 2PM or later. From Paddington to the Museum of Docklands takes nearly 40 minutes (waterloo is quicker but the train from Windsor takes much longer)
As for your questions:
1) I'm not sure there are any passes that would help for this itinerary. But check Seat61 and see what he lists. http://www.seat61.com
2) Don't know if its still offered but the train fare is small so I wouldn't worry too much.
3) >>3. Is the Royal Crescent in Bath worth seeing . . . I would consider adding extra half day to the itinerary<<
Yes, very worth seeing but doesn't require anything like an extra 1/2 day. However your Bath/Cardiff day is awfully rushed. The Baths, Abbey and general walking around seeing the beautiful city would pretty much take a full day w/o trying to squeeze in Cardiff Castle too.
4) I might not take the time on such a rushed itinerary for the Christmas Markets . . . Unless you decide to stay a night in Bath instead of Cardiff.
>>Day 7: Canterbury sightseeing during the day, evensong service at the cathedral, evening train to and sleep in Dover
Day 8 (Saturday): Dover Castle in the morning, afternoon travel to and sleep in Bath<<
I wouldn't bother packing and moving to Dover -- It ain't that nice a place to stay. I'd stay a 2nd night in Canterbury and take an early morning train to Dover. There isn't a Left Luggage facility at the station but last I knew you can leave your bags here http://www.dovereurochange.co.uk (But I'd contact them to make sure they still provide the service - if not, then maybe do move to Dover for that night . . .)
>>Day 11: Windsor Castle in the morning, Museum of London Docklands in the afternoon, Selfridges in the early evening for early Christmas shopping<<
Really difficult. Windsor can't really be 'done' in the morning since it opens at 9:45 and easily takes 3 hours to see then the train back to London. So don't count on being back at Paddington or Waterloo til around 2PM or later. From Paddington to the Museum of Docklands takes nearly 40 minutes (waterloo is quicker but the train from Windsor takes much longer)
As for your questions:
1) I'm not sure there are any passes that would help for this itinerary. But check Seat61 and see what he lists. http://www.seat61.com
2) Don't know if its still offered but the train fare is small so I wouldn't worry too much.
3) >>3. Is the Royal Crescent in Bath worth seeing . . . I would consider adding extra half day to the itinerary<<
Yes, very worth seeing but doesn't require anything like an extra 1/2 day. However your Bath/Cardiff day is awfully rushed. The Baths, Abbey and general walking around seeing the beautiful city would pretty much take a full day w/o trying to squeeze in Cardiff Castle too.
4) I might not take the time on such a rushed itinerary for the Christmas Markets . . . Unless you decide to stay a night in Bath instead of Cardiff.
Feb 7th, 2015, 10:25 AM
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. Is there a rail pass that would cover our travels in England? If yes, does the pass cover peak time travel (before 9:30 AM) at all? Would the pass cover trip to Cardiff?>
Yes - the BritEngland Railpass covers all of English - hop on any train anytime - no restrictions at all. And from Nov thru end of Feb you get an Off-Peak Railpass for about 25% less than at other times of the year. compare prices at www.nationalrail.co.uk - do not confuse with the BritRail Pass which also covers Wales and Scotland.
Note BritEngland does not cover Wales but you go thru such a small part of Wales the price difference between this pass and the BritRail Pass could make the BritEngland a better deal - pay out o fpocket for the relatively short Welsh section (can even go by dirt-cheap bus to Cardiff).
For lots of great info on British trains and passes I always spotlight these IMO fine sites: www.budgeteuropetravel.com; www.ricksteves.com and www.seat61.com.
the cheapest way to go may be deep discounted tickets which may have restrictions on when they can be used and are set in stone on a specific train on a specific day and as they are sold in limited numbers on each train should be booked weeks in advance.That may be the cheaest way to go if you do not wish to have flexibility.
And the fare from Ashford International to Canterbury may be so cheap you would not want to use a day on a pass on that; ditto for Canterbury to Dover.
Yes - the BritEngland Railpass covers all of English - hop on any train anytime - no restrictions at all. And from Nov thru end of Feb you get an Off-Peak Railpass for about 25% less than at other times of the year. compare prices at www.nationalrail.co.uk - do not confuse with the BritRail Pass which also covers Wales and Scotland.
Note BritEngland does not cover Wales but you go thru such a small part of Wales the price difference between this pass and the BritRail Pass could make the BritEngland a better deal - pay out o fpocket for the relatively short Welsh section (can even go by dirt-cheap bus to Cardiff).
For lots of great info on British trains and passes I always spotlight these IMO fine sites: www.budgeteuropetravel.com; www.ricksteves.com and www.seat61.com.
the cheapest way to go may be deep discounted tickets which may have restrictions on when they can be used and are set in stone on a specific train on a specific day and as they are sold in limited numbers on each train should be booked weeks in advance.That may be the cheaest way to go if you do not wish to have flexibility.
And the fare from Ashford International to Canterbury may be so cheap you would not want to use a day on a pass on that; ditto for Canterbury to Dover.
Feb 7th, 2015, 10:32 AM
#6
Most of the rail journeys are short (except Dover to Bath and Cardiff to London) . . . that is why I don't think a pass will pencil out.
Plus there really aren't enough hours in the day to do some of those plans so probably a moot point.
Plus there really aren't enough hours in the day to do some of those plans so probably a moot point.
Feb 7th, 2015, 11:24 AM
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annhig: Yes, I checked the rail schedule in question before I posted the itinerary. If I leave Rouen at 2pm, I should get to Canterbury around 9pm. To me that is not a long day; it's an average day. Same with Dover to Bath. Although thank you for double checking the travel time for me.
janisj: Regarding overnight in both Canterbury and Dover, the problem is exactly about the luggage storage. There are no lockers or left luggage at or near Dover Priory. That's why I was thinking to get a hotel near there. Plus Dover Castle is only open on weekends in November, so we can't go see Dover Castle first and then Canterbury, and will have to leave for Bath from Dover. Although you have given me an idea, to sleep in Dover both nights and do a day trip out to Canterbury instead. Hmm I didn't realize it takes 40 minutes from Paddington to Docklands, and wasn't planning to walk around Bath, other than to see the Roman Bath Museum specifically...will consider adding a day to the trip.
PalenQ: Thank you again for the rail info. I can always count on you for that.
janisj: Regarding overnight in both Canterbury and Dover, the problem is exactly about the luggage storage. There are no lockers or left luggage at or near Dover Priory. That's why I was thinking to get a hotel near there. Plus Dover Castle is only open on weekends in November, so we can't go see Dover Castle first and then Canterbury, and will have to leave for Bath from Dover. Although you have given me an idea, to sleep in Dover both nights and do a day trip out to Canterbury instead. Hmm I didn't realize it takes 40 minutes from Paddington to Docklands, and wasn't planning to walk around Bath, other than to see the Roman Bath Museum specifically...will consider adding a day to the trip.
PalenQ: Thank you again for the rail info. I can always count on you for that.
Feb 7th, 2015, 12:09 PM
#9
o&p - honestly I cannot imagine getting any pleasure from travelling at that pace. it's you're holiday of course, but IME you miss so much by moving on every day. on our recent trip to Germany, we moved on after 2 nights in each place, and even that was too fast by the end.
Feb 7th, 2015, 01:34 PM
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"Does you mother enjoy traveling at this extremely fast pace "
For crying out loud. The girl's old enough to be able to read books on trains, young enough to be happy to put them on a Kindle and hardly likely to see a couple of trains from Rouen to Ashford as an imposition.
Strikes me as the kind of holiday we have whenever we leave home.
For crying out loud. The girl's old enough to be able to read books on trains, young enough to be happy to put them on a Kindle and hardly likely to see a couple of trains from Rouen to Ashford as an imposition.
Strikes me as the kind of holiday we have whenever we leave home.
Feb 7th, 2015, 01:49 PM
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Actually she and my father are the ones who taught my sister and I to travel at this speed when we were little kids. So I don't think this is extreme at all (for us at least). Does it help if I tell you that we don't get jet lag and we can take naps almost anywhere?
Feb 7th, 2015, 01:54 PM
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I have now added one day to the trip, making this a 13-day holiday, so that we would have a whole day in Bath. I didn't realize there is much to see in Bath other than the Roman Bath Museum. Thank you for the enlightenment.
Feb 15th, 2015, 07:35 AM
#16
Bath University has a great American section with wonderful quilts
http://americanmuseum.org/about-the-...ilts-textiles/
It may not interest but there is a lot to do in Bath.
Dover, on the other hand has a big castle
http://americanmuseum.org/about-the-...ilts-textiles/
It may not interest but there is a lot to do in Bath.
Dover, on the other hand has a big castle
Feb 15th, 2015, 07:45 AM
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You could have a look at this http://www.twotogether-railcard.co.uk
It's fairly new
It's fairly new
Feb 16th, 2015, 11:36 AM
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Please don't waste valuable time going to Dover, the town and its inhabitants leave a great deal to be desired. It is now the home of the dispossessed, those who arrived illegally in Dover and cannot move on. There isn't a decent place to eat and the castle is like so many other castles. If you arrive by train, there is only one bus an hour up to the castle and it would be a complete waste of a valuable day. Spend more time in Canterbury and especially Bath. I took by 80 plus Mum there for her birthday, she loved it!
Nov 29th, 2015, 03:27 PM
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Thank you for the railcard deal and the Dover info. My mom had indicated that she did not want to go to England again (wanted to go somewhere new), so we ended up splitting it into two trip. We just came back from a two-and-a-half-week Salzburg/Normandy/Paris trip today. And next month I am going to do the England portion by myself.
