If you are on a tight budget then don't even consider staying in Switzerland.

Thanks mjdh1957 and hanabi....for the replies...

That was a typo error...we had planned to skip Berlin and only go to Koln from Salsburg. What do you suggest? Is Berlin Better or Koln.

How does our itiniery look? Is it too tight a trip? Since its our first time and we are going to be by ourselves...

With this itinerary, you'll spend about 7 of your 12 days in transit to another location. That travel (packing, getting to the station, getting to the next hotel, etc.) takes time away from your sightseeing and adds to the cost of your trip. When you spend at least 3 nights in a place, you obviously can see much more of it. I'd recommend that you add up the cost of the train trips and hotels, and compare it to the cost of visiting only two or three places. If you stay lin one place onger, you might be interested in getting an apartment instead a hotel, because you can save a lot of money on food when you have a kitchen. Or stay with your friends longer!

www.backpackeurope.com

Shoestring travel a piece of cake

Your route looks fine

www.eurocheapo.com great tips cheap free stuff

www.hostelbookers.com for top hostels.

Things are very high in Switzerland but as long as

you are willing to do hostels like www.matterhornhostel.com

and grovery your food things can still be pretty cheap.

Big Mac was $7 when in Zurich last so save up!

In big cities I get amazing deals bidding priceline.com

Marriott for me $80/nt last in Zurich right on the river

but Hotel Otter is nice there if you do not want to bid

Zurich HB hostel is cheap www.wombats.at nice hostels

along your way as long as you do not mind tonnes of students

and a bit of party...

Usually just hop regional trains seat61.com for going all over

www.eurolines.com bus pass can be very cheap not as nice.

Hi N,

You are making the usual newbie mistake of cramming as much as possible into a short visit. This is the sort of itinerary one gets from travel agencies.

As noted, most of your trip will be taken up moving from place to place. Also, the more moving about you do, the more expensive it gets.

You have 12 days. May I suggest:

Fly into Rome - 3 nights
Fly to Munich - 4 nights
Fly to Paris - 4 nights
train to Brussels

Use www.whichbudget.com or www.kayak.com for airfares. For example, Munich to Paris Orly is as low as 100E.

Compare the cost of flights to trains by using these websites:
Italy www.trenitalia.com
Germany www.bahn.de
France www.voyages-sncf.com

I think that point-to-point tickets will be cheaper than a railpass.

Enjoy your visit.

We plan to travel by Eurail....Is this a good option and can we travel in the nights>

for your wide-ranging itinerary some kind of Eurailpass IMO makes sense and a pass in most of the countries you will be in lets you just hop on any train anytime and the pass is also first class which IME of decades of incessant European train riding the benefits of first-class for the average tourists, esp those with luggage in tow, is great so when you compare ordinary train fares to the pass compare first class fares - which can be really expensive - especially fully flexible ones like the pass provides.

Check out these fab IMO sites to help plan a European rail trip - www.seat61.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.ricksteves.com. buy your pass before leaving home as though Eurailpasses are sold in Eurail Aide offices in main stations they are pegged usually about 20% higher than if bought abroad.

First of all, don't buy a train pass until you've settled your itinerary. It may be that point-to-point tickets will be cheaper. Or budget airline flights. For the latter, look at www.whichbudget.com or www.skyscanner.net.

I agree with ardithl that you're going to be spending a lot of time traveling.

Also you might want to add a day or two to the end of your trip. You could visit Bruges (also as a daytrip from Brussels) and/or Amsterdam and possibly fly home from Amsterdam.

I agree completely with ira that "You are making the usual newbie mistake of cramming as much as possible into a short visit." Your current plan spends too much time and money on moving around.

You have time to see Paris (4 nights), Munich (3 nights?), Salzburg (2 nights) and maybe one other place. Since you have friends to stay with in Munich and Salzburg, keep those. Forget about Berlin and Zurich. Cologne is a good choice for 2-3 nights - stop there on the way back to Brussels. You can do a daytrip by train to the scenic Middle Rhine Valley from there, and take a tour of Marksburg Castle: www.marksburg.de

Transportation: I would NOT get a Eurailpass for this trip. You can get discounted point-to-point tickets if you buy in advance here: http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en These discounted tickets are few in number and get progressively more expensive as they sell. Paris-Munich costs 39-89 Euros one way. Munich to Köln costs between 49 Euros and 149 Euros for a ticket for TWO people. Köln to Brussels costs as little as 19 Euros each.

You can get between Munich and Salzburg on a Bayern ticket (daypass, 29 Euros for 2-5 people), which is also good for public transport within Munich.

http://www.munich-touristinfo.de/Bavaria-Ticket.htm

So your cost for the above travel segments would lie between 90 and 200 Euros each, depending on whether you get the best discounts or the more minor discounts. You'd need to add the cost of Brussels-Paris too, of course.

The beauty of a railpass is that in Germany and most countries you can just show up at the station and hop any train anytime - priceless to me at least. Or yes you can pre-book weeks in advance often to get the disconted tickets that are typically non-changeable nor refundable.

And for a trip involving four countries and several days of travel I'd bet the Eurail Select Pass would compete well with the various discounts (which you may have to spend zillions of hours to get) and IMO any average tourist should go first class - decades of incessant rail travel tells me t hat - especially folks with luggage - so IMO compare first class fares to the cost of a first class Eurail Select Saverpass (two or more names on one pass) valid in each country you are going to - in your case a 4-Country Pass valid in France, Germany, Switzerlanad and Benelux (Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg) - and except for the French TGV you can hop any train anytime - priceless to many rather than having to be at the station at a time decided weeks in advance and if you miss the train you are out any refund and then have to buy a full fare ticket at a really expensive price typically.

PalenQ writes, "IMO any average tourist should go first class..."

Maybe so, but the OP is not "average" and mentions the word BUDGET in both the title and the text. First class tickets - for a BUDGET traveler? I suppose that's an option. But the 5-day version of a selectpass for 4 countries you suggest is 330 Euros each in the cheapest saver version, surely at least twice as much as the discount tickets would cost. Perhaps the pass is a good option if the OP needs to wait until closer to the dates of travel to make the purchase, when the cheap p2p tix are gone. "Zillions" of hours to buy 3-4 tickets? Discount tickets are easy to buy. The disadvantage is that the traveler must stick to the scheduled itinerary, but "budget" travelers routinely trade certain inconveniences for price advantages.

You are spending a lot of your time and a good deal of money just getting from one place to another. Pick just 2 places - so you can actually have time to see something - and don't waste so much time and money.

And while Switz is gorgeous it's not really for showstring travelers - much more expensive than the other places you are looking at.

Since Salzburg and Munich have free accommodations, I'd definitely keep them in your plan. But otherwise this is a bit of a mess because you will come out of it only having seen trains stations/buses, and hotel front desks checking in and out.

One night in a city does not give you one day there --and 2 nights doesn't equal 2 days. All that travel will eat up more than half of your time and REALLY add to your costs.

Russ gives you a very good/workable plan. You can tweak it here and there -- but basically it would be my choice in your situation.

On your trip overall: yes, agree with the others, too ambitious.

Cut out North Germany - Berlin/Koln and just focus on the south - Munich and Salzburg.

Spend more time in Munich. You'll have more than enough to do - you need at least one day to go out to Nymphenberg Palace, then another to do the Residenz - and this apart from having to wander around the Altstadt. For inexpensive food, try the Viktualienmarkt right next to Marienplatz.

On Switzerland: First off, there are no Wombat hostels in Zurich. The Wombat hostels - cream of the crop as far as hostels are concerned - are located in Munich, Berlin and Vienna. They are extremely popular with the young crowd, each hostel having a sound-proof bar which serves inexpensive drinks and is usually hopping till late into the night.

Secondly, try for a B&B if you want to save on lodgings in Switzerland. For two people you can do better with a B&B than with a hostel in Switzerland. Look up "B&B" on tripadvisor.com or try for a website like bedandbreakfast.com.

On Paris - backtracking here - too little time for Paris. Assuming that you will be arriving by air, it'll take several hours to get from the airport to central Paris and get settled into your hotel - that's half a day gone.

The fastest way to get from Paris to Zurich by train is to take the 4 1/2 hour TGV which runs between the two cities several times a day. The TGV for Zurich leaves from the Gare de l'Est, so I would suggest finding lodging close to this train station instead of near the main attractions like the Eiffel Tower.

The TGV train is the fastest way because it saves you travel and wait time at airports.

Also try to find lodging that's not too far from a metro station - marked by a blue "M" in a circle on google maps. You can get all over very sprawled out Paris on the metro. Get a "carnet", a booklet of ten tickets, to save both time and money. It's a royal pain in the... to have to find loose coins or small bills to buy single tickets each time you have to get on the metro.

Lastly, I'll agree with PalenQ that the railpass is worthwhile, especially for newbies. It is very flexible and you are not tied down to a definite train schedule and therefore stressed to have to catch a particular train in a strange city.

Sounds like a terrific trip! Have a great time in Europe!

title and the text. First class tickets - for a BUDGET traveler? I suppose that's an option. But the 5-day version of a selectpass for 4 countries you suggest is 330 Euros each in the cheapest saver version>

well that still may be a good deal compared to regular fares - even five discounted tickets IF they can get them - it is the cheapest pass - no 2nd class option so if for a little more than 2nd class tickets you can go first class do it - I do not know what indiviudal tickets would cost but if they want flexibility to hop any train anytime 2nd class tickets could well cost as much or more.

Another argument against Switzerland, at least Interlaken, is the weather's not so good later in the fall.

And, when you leave Paris, you'll need a seat reservation for your train trip, even if you have a pass.

Yes Interlaken in the fall can be dicey - I was there recently one mid-Sep and there was ice on the paths around Murren and cold as heck in Grindelwald and Lauterbrunnen - but not so bad in Interlaken itself - but yes rain can set in at anytime of the year and more so in the fall it seems.

Seat reservations with a pass on the Paris to Interlaken train usually cost 3 euros.

Ditto Ira and PalenQ. Too much traveling. What day is it? Where are we? Where do we go next? Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Slow down and smell the roses.

For an illustrated introduction to rail travel in Europe see
http://tinyurl.com/eym5b.

I totally agree with PalenQ's suggestion of a Eurail Select Pass for Germany. Ticket prices are high there and the first class is less populated. You just hop on any train. Seat reservations are not required on 99% of the trains.

Pefect advice ira;


OP has arranged accommodation in Munich for 1 night and Salzburg for 2 and you advise him to stay in Munich for 4 nights and send him to Rome where there was no interest expressed at all.

On a "shoestring budget" and you suggest flying.

I've got an idea - I suggest the OP spend the whole 12 days in the Algarve!

In case you're not aware of the implications of railpass versus reservations:

A railpass is the basic train ticket good for a certain number of days or for a certain number of trips within a certain period of days. There are any number of permutations and PalenQ seems to know them inside out to be able to suggest one that is best for your purposes.

A reservation, OTOH, is for a SEAT, a place.

If you do not have a seat reservation and you get on a train, you may have to stand for the entire journey if there are no seats available for you to sit in.

In Italy and France (except for a very limited number of local trains), seat reservations are mandatory, regardless of what kind of railpass you purchase. The seat reservation is, therefore, a mandatory charge on top of the basic railpass. You should buy the seat reservation before you get on the train, otherwise, it's a lot more expensive if you have to buy the reservation from the conductor on the train.

In most of the other countries that allow usage of the railpass, seat reservations are not mandatory but are advisable during the peak travel seasons, summer and Christmas-New Year. Otherwise, you can just get on any train and travel on the basis of the railpass alone. (There are certain common sense restrictions. For example, if you buy a railpass that's good for France only, obviously, you cannot just hop on any train in Germany and still expect to be able to use the railpass). In such hop-on cases, you can take any seat that is free; if someone comes along who has reserved the seat you are sitting in, then just move to another free seat. You, thus, save yourself some money by not having to make seat reservations in these other countries.

As for first class versus second class, except for the peak travel seasons, you'll more likely to find empty seats in first class than in second class. So, once you have selected the type of railpass best suited for your purposes, then the next decision is whether to select first or second class. If the cost difference is not that great, then first class is a very good buy. The seats are more comfortable, there are sometimes free newspapers offered, there is always a plug for your laptop or cell phone, coffee and snacks are brought to your seat instead of your having to go to the dining car (if there is one), etc.

Hope this helps a bit in your decision-making.

ditto to all that easytraveler sagely said!

Another argument against Switzerland, at least Interlaken, is the weather's not so good later in the fall>

well even a bigger argument now against Switzerland at any time of year on a budget is that Switzerland is now, due to the surge of the Swiss franc, outrageously expensive - unfathomably expensive!

Why, thank you, PQ!

Thank You Everybody for being so generous in your replies/ suggestions/ Guidance.

Specially would like to thank PalenQ, Easytraveler, Spaarne, Ira,Russ, Mimar, janisj, nytraveler and all the others...I totally understand that i'm cramming too many things in too litttle a time , but for me this is a first time trip and i may not make it again for atleast another 4 years...Hence the tight schedule.

I am putting up another post on this forum titled 'Tips to see at the places i Visit' and i look forward to all your suggestions and replies.

Thanks again People...

Hey Pal,
>for a trip involving four countries and several days of travel I'd bet the Eurail Select Pass would compete well ...<

Yes, but you are betting with the OP's money, aren't you?
He has to do the numbers after he's got an itinerary.
.......................................
>Pefect advice ira; <

Thank you Aramis.

This is a situation in which a newbie traveler doesn't seem to know what to do. I advised him. He needn't take my advice.

I did include two of the cities in which he expressed interest, and a I gave him a more reasonable itinerary.

Sometimes discount airlines are less expensive the trains.

Now that I have explained it more fully to you, I hope that this might help you with your future travel plans.

Hey nit,

>I totally understand that i'm cramming too many things in too litttle a time , but for me this is a first time trip and i may not make it again for atleast another 4 years...Hence the tight schedule. <

Oh my, another four years.

That is definitely a good reason to screw up your first visit.

Enjoy your trip.

If it's Tuesday, it will be Belgium.

Hi Ira...did not understand "if it is a Tuesday. Its will be Belgium"?

"If it's Tuesday, this must be Belgium" was a movie made about 1970 (starring Suzanne Pleshette of "the Bob Newhart Show') which followed a tour group that made a whirlwind tour thru Europe. Very funny. Many of the minor comic actors of the time were in it.

Key words here on the movie is "tour group". Many of the hassles of travel were eliminated for the tour members.

In this case, the OP has to do everything himself/herself and has NOT factored in the time necessary to do these things - while on the road.

If 1/4 of the time is spent sleeping, 1/4 of the time spent in getting from place to place, and some more time is needed for all the rest of the miscellaneous things that have to be done - like map reading - this means that the OP has, at best, 2/5 of the total trip to enjoy the destinations.

Sometimes less is more, but to each his/her own.

To explain a bit more: >>If this is Tuesday it must be Belgium<< has sort of become American vernacular to describe a trip that is so rushed you barely know what you are seeing or where you are. One looks at the calendar, sees the date and realizes they are in Belgium -- or somewhere nearby

What we are trying to tell you is all the travel/fast pace will actually let you see less than if you spend a little more time in a few less places.

You are not alone in thinking >>I don't know when I'll be back so I MUST see everything this trip<< But honestly, you'll see more and have a less frantic/hectic trip if you cut back a bit.

Now, that doesn't necessarily mean you have to spend a week in each city. But a few days at each stop will be much MUCH easier -- and cheaper too.

>for a trip involving four countries and several days of travel I'd bet the Eurail Select Pass would compete well ...<

Yes, but you are betting with the OP's money, aren't you?
He has to do the numbers after he's got an itinerary.>

Ira did you read the OP's initial itinerary - yes for travel like that a multi-country pass no doubt - NO doubt would be better than any other option - but yes anyone should compare regular fares and discounted fares, etc - but if you looked at the cost of say a Select Saver Pass you may be surprised how cheap it is and that for first class travel - and first class have immense benefits for the average traveler.

anyway I find your retort kind of disingenous - >for a trip involving four countries and several days of travel I'd bet the Eurail Select Pass would compete well ...<

Yes, but you are betting with the OP's money, aren't you?
He has to do the numbers after he's got an itinerary.>

disingenous because on some recent occasions you just said 'railpasses are often a poor deal' and thus under your own suggestion you were betting with that OP's money instead of telling them to do their own math?

well said, janisj....I think the OP is going to do as he wishes (meaning trying to see too much), so it's probably time we accept that...

I think that is a lesson many have to learn on their own (I would say "you can lead a horse to water....", but don't think the OP would understand the saying, much like the Tuesday/Belgium comment).

I do hope you enjoy your trip.

Hi Denisea...Thanks or your comments...I do understand that all of you are trying to guide me into doing a memorable trip and appreciate all the suggestions....I am now trying to cut down on my trip to enjoy more....!!!

BTW, i know OP is talking about me...But what is the full form of OP?

OP is you, the Original Poster.

Thanks...Spaarne...

Thanks Again everybody for taking out time and guiding me in the above...I have realized that the trip is indeed very tight and now am planning to reorganize my self.

After taking so many suggestions from you all , am now considering to do Paris - 3 Nights , Lucerne - 3 Nights, Venice - 2 Nights, Munich - 3 Nights (Have accommodation here)and Maybe Berlin.

Since we are looking at a Budget Trip plus some part of our Trip is where we are staying a Friend's place...Can anybody suggest a good Company/ website who can organise the tour for us including travel, accommodation sightseeing etc...

Most of the sites, i visited, does the entire package, but stay is in 3 star hotels and you have to stay compulsorily in the hotel...could not see any company giving you an option where you stay in some country in a hotel and some on your own

Thanks in advance for the suggestions...!!!

buy a railpass - go to priceline for hotels and relax! Get a good guidebook and do your own sighsteeing - your criteria in a tour company simply don't exist - at a budget price at least.

Ditto PalenQ. Also, planning your own trip is part of the fun. For city tours take a hop-on hop-off tour bus to get oriented.

"go to priceline for hotels"

Suggesting Priceline -- at least w/o specific advice for each city, priceline bidding assistance, PL zones, re-bidding rules, etc -- to someone who is obviously just starting to learn about international travel, is not all that helpful IMO.

One does not just 'go to priceline' and get hotel. It can be pretty complicated and takes research.

I use PL all the time -but I personally don't think this is a case where it is a viable option. Unless you want to do nitishraj's PL bidding and pay for it if a bad hotel/location is the result.

nitishraj: Once you are sure which cities you are visiting -- we can give you suggestions for hotels and accommodations. You have come a long way from your first plan - this new one is much better. But it still cuts some places too short.

For example--Paris. Your first day after the VERY long flight you will be tired and jet lagged. And w/ the hassles arriving at CDG, and the time it takes to travel into the city and check in to your hotel-- you may not do anything that day but a nice walk and an early dinner.

So you may want to add a day or two to Paris (Which probably means cutting out one of your other destinations). I would not cut any city where you have free accommodations. Those 'free' stops might allow you to raise you budget a bit in the other cities you visit.

I don't think you will find a tour that will let you stay in their hotel in one city and not in another.

If it was me -I'd pick the two places w/ free rooms, and two other cities. Make it simple and you won't need any sort of tour company

Thanks Janisj for a detailed advice....We have 99% freezed on this route...although as suggested by you, still a bit hectic, but we will manage..

Paris - 3 Nights , Lucerne - 3 Nights (we have accomodation in Tuttlingen (3 hrs from Lucerne), Venice - 2 Nights, Munich - 3 Nights (Have accommodation here)and Maybe Berlin.

Can you give me suggestions for hotels and accomodations? Also can you pls give me suggestions of what to see and not miss in these places...we are interested in History, Culture, food, beer and experiencing the European lifestyle etc..

Thanks in advance for the suggestions...!!!

Well if you go to Berlain do not miss the S-Bahn ride out to Potsdam, the Prussian Versailles.

You may want to consider staying away from the city center in Paris, but close to the Metro, to save money on your hotel room. I don't know the hotels away from the city center.

The arrondissements that are very central (1, 8, 4, 5, 6, 7, for example) can be quite pricey! But if you stay out a bit and close to a Metro stop, you can get into see what you like pretty easily and inexpensively. A carnet of Metro tickets will get you where you want to go (it's a book of ten tickets and you can both use them).

You buy an expensive crepe on the street or something from a bakery and enjoy lunch at Luxembourg Gardens or the park behind Notre Dame. To save money, pick up fruit at street markets to snack on, never order bottled water in cafes (ask for carafe d'eau), pick up a pastry at a patisserie for breakfast, and if you are at a cafe where you can stand at the counter instead of eating at a table, do it...it's less expensive. Many cafes charge even more for the terrace table than an indoor table, so be aware of that.

Take advantage of Le Menu in cafes as it is usually a good value and will usually include a starter, main course and dessert. Avoid eating in the areas right around the attractions...food is not too good and costs more!

You may want to consider staying away from the city center in Paris, but close to the Metro, to save money on your hotel room. I don't know the hotels away from the city center>

Great idea that could save tons of money and still provide cheap and frequent metro transporation in a few minutes into Paris - there are zillions of inexpensive modern motel-like hotels ringing Paris, out there for access by motorists not wishing to drive into Paris - check out www.accorhotels.com for several different brands, from dirt-cheap Formule 1 to more pricey and comfy ETAP and Ibis hotels of this chain.

I don't think denisa meant staying THAT far out of the center. That would be quite a hassle and you'd have no feeling of staying IN Paris. Just in the next ring of arrondissements beyond the 'big 8' (1-8) will generally be cheaper and still be IN Paris, And even some parts of the 'inner arrondissements' are less expensive than the prime neighborhoods.

See if you can get into the Sorbonne and eat with the students in the 5th. I did that once. Lunch is dirt cheap and tastes really bad.The cafeteria at the Alliance Francaise is pretty good. I think you can eat there even if you are not a student.

For a cheap high protein lunch in Germany stop in a Metzgerei, butcher shop. You can get a sandwich and a beverage, and maybe eat in the shop.

for dcheap and filling lunches in Paris stop by the many FLUNCH cafeterais serving down-home French food - you get a meat plat of choice and unlimited helpings of salads and veggies, bread, etc. A favorite with Parisians and families.

I still say you've blown all thoughts about this being a "shoestring budget trip" by keeping Switzerland in the mix. It's gonna eat up a lot of your limited budget, even if you have free lodging.