camay

Hi. My husband and I are flying into Frankfurt (and flying out of Frankfurt) for 9 days in October and we want to see the quaint towns and castles along the Rhine River. We plan on seeing the castles, Marksburg, Burg Eltz and Rheinfels (get there by day cruise or train from hotel). Where do you think we should stay, and for how many nights? We will be traveling by train only and will have one little suitcase each.
Meanwhile, I've always wanted to see Rothenburg (because Rick Steve's always talks about it). Would you recommend Rothenburg or Heidelberg? Then I've heard so much about Brussels and Bruges. Then Berlin is on everyone's "must see" list. Help! Too many places to go with too little time! We don't want to waste a lot of time in transit either. Any suggestions on what cities to drop or add? We like going to a mix of cities and towns. Any suggested itineraries? Many thanks!!

Rei_n_hubs

The age old problem of wanting to see a lot and not enough time.
I'm assuming that the 9 days include the day you arrive and the day you depart.

Because of that, I would say you only have enough time to see two areas and since you prefer to avoid long train travel, I would see the River areas and Brussels/Bruges. That will keep you in a relatively small geographical area.

Skip Rothenburg this trip, it's too far out of the way unless you're doing Bavaria. Berlin is also a bit far, but if you dedicate 3 days there and skip brussels/bruges and then take a late train back to Frankfurt to catch your flight the next day you could do it. You can probably do Heidelberg as a day/1overnight trip while you're doing the Rhine area.

klondike

Rothenburg O/T by train takes twice as long by train as by driving. The insights offered by Rei_n_hubs are true...but dreams are dreams. How bad do you want to see Rothenburg? What's 3 or 4 hours by train if you are staying 2 nights soaking up the town? (I'd stay in the walled city, not outside near the train station)

Another nice alternative already mentioned is Ladenberg, just north of Heidelberg.
http://members.virtualtourist.com/m/fc615/aa6e/
For me, it provides the same "draws" as Rothenburg, though on a smaller, more intimate scale. You could easily train from the airport in a little over an hour, spend the morning and then continue on to Heidelberg for the afternoon and night. Not sure about if the bahn has luggage storage, though. Both towns have excellent boutique shops and nice eateries--just remember Sundays everything is closed.

If you're on a budget, the Ibis at the Bahnhof is very affordable (checkout the web "20-yrs" specials in most locations for around 54 euros/night)

Russ

It sounds to me like you're mostly interested in smaller, more scenic places - like Bruges, the Rhine, and Rothenburg, and not so much Berlin. Berlin is very worthwhile, but it's quite a ways from the other places and it really requires 4 days to see anyway, and with only 9 days... I wouldn't worry about everyone else's "must-see list" - go where you want. You have plenty of time to enjoy the other places. I'd spend 3 nights in each. (You might want to spend one night in Rothenburg and then move on to nearby Bamberg, Würzburg, or Nuremberg, depending on your interests.)

The Rhine: St. Goar is an attractive and convenient place to stay. Rheinfels is right there. The ferry there allows you to cross and use the train on the other side of the river for the trip to Marksburg. Connections to Moselkern for Burg Eltz via Koblenz are good.

Getting to Burg Eltz:
http://www.bensbauernhof.com/burgeltzfrommoselkern.html

We spent 3 enjoyable nights in Walter Huppertz' reasonably-priced Rhine View (Rheinblick) apartment:

http://www.loreleytal.com/st.goar/fe...z/english.html

greg

Only you can decide what is worth doing and what can be done. Achievable itineraries worthwhile for one may be a cannot be done itineraries for others.

A transit time is a "waste" if you make it that way. Some believes a 2-hr train ride has one more hour wasted over a same trip by car that takes 1-hr. For me, a 1-hr driving time is a 1-hr "wasted" while a 2-hr train ride is a 0-hr "wasted" while I work on my journal, organize my pictures on my computer to work on my trip picture book, review the information on upcoming destination, or eating breakfast or lunch I picked up in town before hopping on a train. If your objective of the trip is "driving," then no driving time is a waste.

The "triangular" itinerary, Bruges-Berlin-Rothenburg is always troublesome with a tight schedule. A linear routing can cut a day from traveling back to the arrival city had you been able to do get an open-jaw flight, in BRU out FRA, etc. But it looks like you have already locked yourself into FRA-FRA flights.

Put together several options including better transit time estimates. Itineraries not acceptable for one may be acceptable to you.

For trains:
http://reiseauskunft.bahn.de/bin/query.exe/en

For driving:
www.viamichelin.com

PalenQ

Re train travel in Germany - if you stick to the Frankfurt area then investigate the Lander Cards or regional passes good for a limited area around large cities but it going to Rothenburg and especially to Berlin then check out the German Railpass, which the more days you travel on it the cheaper it becomes with extra days above the base being only about $20 p.p. The pass allows hop on at will travel on practically any train in Germany - with very few exceptions that you would never encounter (ICE Sprinter trains) and the are also good on the K-D boats that ply the Rhine Gorge and stop at docks close to all the places you want to visit - and you can take boat or train to Moselkern - above which Burg Eltz looms - cabs or a nice footpath goes up there from the boat dock/train station.

And if going to Bruges - to me one of the prettiest if not the prettiest cities north of the Alps then consider the Germany-Benelux (Belgium-Netherlands-Luxembourgh) pass good in those four countries - again on virtualy any train anytime.

For lots on train travel in these countries and passes i always spotlight these fantastic sources - www.seat61.com; www.ricksteves.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com - download the latter's free and superb IMO European Planning & Rail Guide's excellent chapters on Germany and Benelux.

PalenQ

www.K-D.com has the boat schedules for the short few hours cruises - going downstream is quicker than upstream - duh! the classic part of the Rhine Gorge is between Rudesheim and Koblenz - many boats start at Rudesheim and as this is tour bus central for the Rhine i'd try to board there and grab a nice seat on the front deck - getting on at subsequent docks may find less optimal seating available.

Trains scoot up and down both sides of the Rhine - a mainline on the west side and a regional local train line on the eastern side so from each boat stop you can easily transfer to the train to return to your starting point or say to go onto Koblenz and Cochem, which to me is the dreamiest base i can imagine for both the Mosel, which many find prettier than the Rhine, and the Rhine itself - great rail service to Koblenz in about 20 mins makes it a great base for the Rhine as well.

camay

Wow, I just signed up with Fodors and this was my first posting! I made the post, went to bed, and woke up to all your great advice. Thank you so much! I really appreciate all your feedback and will take it all to heart.

Thank you for getting me back into reality. Berlin is too far off the beaten track and will have to wait for another trip. I always believe there will be another trip!

A few questions, how do you go down the the Mosel river in late October? The K-D line said it doesn't operate. Is a train the only option? (we don't want to drive). Have any of you biked in the region? We like to bike and hike (which will also depend on the weather).

How many days is Frankfurt typically good for? Should we go to Koln if we didn't go to Brussels and/or Brugges? Is Koln a lot different from Frankfurt?

We get into Frankfurt at 8:45 pm from Cairo, Egypt (which probably means customs/immigration, etc.) Is there enough time to train, that evening, to Rudesheim? Or should we overnight in Frankfurt?

Any and all advice is welcome and much appreciated.

You have all been just the best. Thank you so much for your sage advice! I am really appreciative!!

Russ

"A few questions, how do you go down the the Mosel river in late October? The K-D line said it doesn't operate. Is a train the only option? (we don't want to drive). Have any of you biked in the region? We like to bike and hike (which will also depend on the weather)."

Cruises are operated by the Kolb company through the end of October. There are several daily trips to Beilstein and back (an hour each way) for something short. Your best bet for more lengthy scenic cruising is between Cochem and Traben-Trarbach, IMO - lots of magnificent curves, scenic towns, some vineyards and castles. For this route, a boat leaves Cochem daily (but not Monday or Friday) at 8:30 stopping in several villages along the way (in Bullay - train station - at 11:10 and arriving in Traben-Trarbach at 1:30.

Look for Cochem-Beilstein-Cochem and Cochem-Tr.-Trarbach-Cochem schedules here:

http://www.kolb-mosel.com/moselfahrplan_gesamt_2010.pdf

You don't have to do the whole route, of course; Bullay is a wonderful place to get a bike and cruise along the river (station has bikes, I think, or check the Nikolai bike shop in Alf, the village just across the river by ferry, where I rented mine.) You can also hike to the Marienberg lookout or to Arras castle from Alf in a short time.

Cochem is a terrific base town and shouldn't be busy at that time of year.

Russ

"We get into Frankfurt at 8:45 pm from Cairo, Egypt (which probably means customs/immigration, etc.) Is there enough time to train, that evening, to Rudesheim? Or should we overnight in Frankfurt?"

Rüdesheim isn't the most ideal base town for the Rhine.

If you go into Frankfurt, you're headed in the opposite direction from the Rhine Valley by roughly 15 minutes. I'd suggest catching an airport train to Mainz, on the Rhine, (20-25 min. ride) and staying near the station there for your first night. The Königshof and the Hotel Hammer are popular choices there. Mainz is a good-sized town with lots of services and many trains per day heading in all directions. It will be simple to catch a train north from there the next morning to one of the Middle Rhine Villages (like St. Goar, Boppard, or Bacharach.)

bratsandbeer

If I had to choose between Bruges and Rothenburg I would choose Rothenburg.

We have rented a car and drove from Munich to Rothenburg and then down to Bavaria. Driving in Germany is very easy if you want to consider it.

camay

This is all so helpful! Many many thanks!!

I have refocussed our trip to staying mostly in Germany and taking trains, cruises, hikes and biking. I do want to see Rothenberg and was thinking of doing that at the end of the trip with a 2 night stay there.

My thinking is now going to St. Goar for 2 nights as a base and then going to another town on the Mosel to see Burg Eltz. Would you recommend Cochem? Trier? Or do you think staying in St. Goar during the Burg Eltz day works just as well? What would be a Mosel River town that is different from St. Goar? I want to bike along the Rhine if weather permits, from St. Goar to Bingen (round trip? One way?). Any suggestions on the logistics of doing that? Any recommendations on a St. Goar hotel?

So now I have about 3-4 nights to fill in (3 nights in Rhine valley, 2 nights in Rothenburg). Any suggestions for the rest of the trip? Cologne versus Frankfurt?

Again, many thanks for sharing your knowledge with me.

Russ

"My thinking is now going to St. Goar for 2 nights as a base and then going to another town on the Mosel to see Burg Eltz. Would you recommend Cochem? Trier? Or do you think staying in St. Goar during the Burg Eltz day works just as well?"

If you're only spending 3 nights on the Rhine and Mosel together, I'd just stay in St. Goar the whole time and do a daytrip over to Burg Eltz and maybe Cochem.

If you've got 4 nights, it's worth the move to Cochem for two nights, a lovely place w/ good train connections. Trier is a short train ride from there. Trier is nice but a good bit larger than the other towns. Cochem's old town area is perhaps the most attractive of any town on the Rhine or Mosel - filled with cobblestones, fortified walls and towers, mysterious staircases, narrow alleys. Be sure to stop there for at least a few hours if you can. There's a scenic chairlift ride to a lookout over town, and you can hike up to Reichsburg Castle for a tour or the interesting falconry show:

http://www.falknerei-reichsburg-cochem.de/fotobuch.htm

Have you dropped Bruges? It's a great little place. Cologne is all right - spectacular cathedral and some good museums - but not a must in my book.

Biking on the Rhine means sharing the main road in places with cars. You might be better off doing some hiking in the area. The Rheinsteig trail on the opposite side from St. Goar is very popular. My favorite hike takes about 2.5 hours - from St. Goar, climb the staircase/trail next to the train station to the clifftops and proceed south along the trail to Oberwesel, another wine town. You'll pass through fields and forest then vineyards as you skirt the cliffs on your way to O'wesel. The views of the river and the Lorelei cliffs are very special. A good trail map would be helpful. Inquire at the St. Goar TI. You can follow the green grape cluster trail sign for most of the way, as I recall.

In St. Goar, the Hotel Hauser, the Hotel am Markt, and the Hotel zur Loreley are generally well liked and are close in. We enjoyed our apartment in St. Goar during our recent 3-night stay; the Rheinblick has lots of room and a view of the river.

http://www.loreleytal.com/st.goar/fe...z/english.html

You can use the 28-Euro "Rheinland-Pfalz Ticket" (a daypass for 2-5 people) to ride the regional trains all day between Mainz and Koblenz on the Rhine, and between Koblenz and Trier on the Mosel. Quite a deal.

If you're not going to Bruges, then consider 4 nights in the Rhine/Mosel area and 5 in the Rothenburg area, where there's much more than just Rothenburg. This is northern Bavaria - Franconia, actually; the cities of Würzburg, Nuremberg, and especially Bamberg are all charming and interesting and easy to reach by train. There's also Weissenburg, another walled town with an old moat, and the small village of Pappenheim, which lies in the Altmühl River Valley, one of the more popular places to ride bikes in Germany (the white cliffs along the riverside path are unique and the towns interesting.) The Altmühl bike path begins in Rothenburg and moves on to Weissenburg and Pappenheim:

(description and info in German - but see map)

http://87.234.63.51/radler/rw/rw_04.htm

You might want to stay 3 nights in Würzburg or Nuremberg and daytrip by train to these other places. A few years back, we spent several nights in Neustadt an der Aisch, a pleasant village on the train line between Nuremberg and Rothenburg, and did daytrips by train. The 28-Euro Bayern Ticket (daypass for 2-5 people) lets you travel all day on the Bavarian regional trains and buses.

You could also ride bikes along the Aischtal (Aisch Valley) bike path. From Rothenburg it takes you northeast to Bad Windsheim (open air museum here) to Neustadt (55 km so far) and even further:

http://87.234.63.51/radler/rw/rw_02.htm

WTnow

You have gotten great advice here & I'm glad that you have decided to drop Berlin for this trip. (It's wonderful, but your time is very short).

I don't know how long you will be in Cairo, but if you are touring there as well, you may have some travel fatigue by the time you reach Germany. After a point, ones mind blurs after seeing sight after sight and rest and reflection time needs to be added in.

Bruges is a much more charming and beautiful place than Cologne, but I'm glad that you are making sure to see Rothenburg which is particularly nice at that time of year with the summer crowds gone and trees in fall colors.

We were there at the same time of year and happened upon a festival where all the locals dress up and do some sort of reenactment which made it very magical. You might want to see if you can catch that date.

http://www.soultravelers3.com/2010/0...ntic-road.html

I would take care where you bike as well as Russ mentions "sharing the main road in places with cars" can be scary and dangerous. ( I had a fun day biking the Danube with my family until I fell in such an area, landed in the hospital needed surgery that left me with a paralyzed right dominant arm for 10 months! (http://www.soultravelers3.com/2009/0...mergency-.html)

Most people do not get hurt biking, but Europeans drive fast, very aggressively and do not seem to care much about pedestrians or bikers ( we've done a ton of walking and biking around Europe for the last 4 years...and that includes even small children). So DO keep that in mind for any biking areas where you share it with cars.

Happy planning!

PalenQ

A few questions, how do you go down the the Mosel river in late October? The K-D line said it doesn't operate. Is a train the only option?>

Trains for the most part only go along The 'Mother Mosel' (vs the 'Father Rhine') between Koblenz and Cochem though there are two short spur lines going to Traben-Trarbach, home of Zeller Schwartzer Cat (sp?) wine - a lovely wine town on the river and Bernkastel-Kues (actually a bus link from Wittlich train station) - Bernkastel is IMO one of the very cutest towns on the Rhine or Mosel - a ruined castel high on a hill outside town adds to the romance.

And there are frequent buses along the Mosel road, connecting all towns to Cochem or Trier, including Beilstein.

Delaine

I wouldn't spend more than a day in Frankfurt. They have some very nice museums (sculpture and painting) but a very small historical area. Unless you are set on staying there, I would skip it in favor of someplace else.

Hopefully, you can fit in both Heidelberg and Rothenburg. I loved them both, especially walking around Rothenburg when the day-trippers were gone.

PalenQ

I have biked down the Mosel several times from the Luxembourg border to Koblenz and it seems there are bike paths - actually strips at places long the main road but you are not really mixing with traffic per se.

And in my several times i have found that the Mosel Valley can be a veritable wind tunnel - with the winds blowing down the valley - as you can take your bike on trains and boats i would consider taking one up river then biking back down.

and for some exercise instead of following the serpentine curves of the river in its deep gorge opt for side roads that go up and over the huge loops - once on top of the gorge there are marvelous views for miles and miles over the Eifel mountains - and seeing the river from high above is a treat

Or you can hike up to the gorge's top thru vineyards on paved workers paths - it's often about a 1,000 foot trek but so so rewarding.

jgwagner4

One thing you will find about us Fodorites is that we are all very opinionated. I get lots of useful advice from us, but whether or not you follow it depends on many factors. There have been times when I have chosen not to follow advice from this site and paid for it.

So as for my opinions…

I agree with many here (and disagree with others) and I would not try to do Berlin or Bruges on this trip if I were planning it. I think spending more time in a more compact area will give you a better feel for that area, and leave you with more energy to enjoy your adventures. Given the information you have mentioned I would spend my whole time in Germany on the Rhine / Mosel, possibly staying in the same location the entire trip. Heidelberg and Köln are both great cities, and both worth a visit. In my opinion, I would not say Bruges is more beautiful than Köln, it is just different. The Dom (Cathedral) is extremely beautiful, the Roman museum is one of the best I have ever been to, and walking along the river (although it may be cold in October) is very nice.

I think this is all doable via the train but I am curious why you are ruling out a car. A car would give you the freedom to go when and where you want to, and I think it could even be cost effective when you consider that you could then stay in a location further from train stations.

Have you considered Ferienwohnungen (vacation rentals) as an option? Normally you must stay 4 days minimum, but they would probably be quite a bit cheaper. You also get a kitchen with everything you need to prepare your own meals if you choose. We actually like visiting the grocery store to get interesting things to cook. Our family has stayed at a Ferienwohnung in Bacharach (IMO, one of the nicest villages on the Middle Rhine) for 40 Euro a night twice now. I did some quick checks on Google maps and found the following:

- Bacharach to Heidelburg - - > Less than 1 ½ hours
- Bacharach to Köln - - > Less than 2 hours
- Bacharach to Frankfurt - - > Just over 1 hour
- Bacharach to Frankfurt - - > Just over 2 ½ hours

All could be doable for a day trip.

If you are worried about the stress of driving in Germany, I think there is very little. Overall the roads seem to be in better repair and most Germans seem to be better drivers than what you find on average in the U.S. I would make sure you have a navigation system to even take more of the stress out of driving, so I guess that might offset some of the savings you could get from staying at a Ferienwohnung.

As I mentioned we have spent a considerable amount of time as tourists on the Rhine. Here are to three of my travelogues that include the Middle Rhine if you are interested.

http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...travelogue.cfm

http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...travelogue.cfm

http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...nd-england.cfm

Good luck and have fun!

LSky

"Any suggestions for the rest of the trip? Cologne versus Frankfurt?"

Are you interested in museums? What kind? Cologne has a beautiful cathedral, Frankfurt is not without it's charms.
What do you like to do in a big city?

camay

I very much value all of your opinions! You've helped me so much to zero in on an itinerary. Thanks again.

If we arrive at Frankfurt airport at 8:45 pm (from Cairo, Egypt), will we have enough time to get our luggage, pass through customs, find the train station at the airport, and make the last train to Mainz by 10:30? I can't stand worrying about whether we make the last train. What are our options? Stay at an airport hotel or go into Frankfurt (how to do that?).

Any suggestions for hotels in Rothenburg and Cochem? I like the idea of 2 nights in St. Goar and 2 nights in Cochem. After the Egypt trip, it'll be nice to hike, bike or cruise on the rivers.

LSky, I like museums but my husband does not (or limited), although we are big history buffs. We love to wander around big cities, but make sure we see them major attractions.

So, one city or bigger town in addition to our 4 night Rhine stay and our 2 night Rothenberg stay. What should that be?

You are all so awesome with your advice. Thanks again!