PatriciaV2

Hi everyone! I'm wondering what are the qualifications one needs to get a visa approval to move to the UK? I am a student pursuing my Master's degree in music in the US. I have some experience teaching music to children.

I am also a second generation Italian with some relatives in Italy who I have not met. Does anyone know, since these countries are members of the eu whether there is some exception law or something that would allow a US citizen with relatives in a part of the eu to move to either of these two countries? (basically anyone know of any outs)???

Thanks!
Patricia
p.s advice and recommendations would be welcomed.

Anonymous

I believe that if your parents (or perhaps even grndparents) were born in Italy, you can apply for dual citizenship, effectively making you an EU citizen. One of my co-workers did this when looking for work in Europe, sorry I didn't pay closer attention to the details!

flanneruk

Presumably you're under 28.

The Highly Skilled Migrants Programme gives you a work permit that's based on qualifications and experience: it's not linked to a specific job, or to any particular kind of job.

If you download the instructions from http://www.workingintheuk.gov.uk/wor...all_forms.html , you'll probably find you need a year or so professional experience before you qualify for an HSMP visa, though that varies by individual. Over 28, you need more impressive experience, and an earnings record that might be unrealistic for teachers. If, as you probably do, you qualify for the HSMP visa, you can work and live here effortlesly, whatever your citizenship. There's a huge backlog in processing these visas, so it's wise to allow up to a year.

Any Italian citizen - or citizen of any of the 25 EU states - can work here without restrictions. You may well be eligible for Italian citizenship, though you need to determine this with your nearest Italian embassy.

Incidentally some Americans are convinced the US prevents its citizens from acquiring citizenship of another country. It's nonsense: in this, at least, you have the same rights as most other free people.

Without citizenship of an EU country, or an HSMP visa, you're likely to struggle.

sheila

I would strongly advise that you explore your Italian connections with a view to seeing if you can get indefinite leave there. Italy, at least before teh 1st May, was the easiest country in te EU to get entry to; with it you can move anywhere you want in the EU

Keith

Isn't dual citizenship like marrying two people at the same time? That is permitted in some countries, but not others.

Keith

PatriciaV2

Hi again. I made a big mistake. I am not actually second generation, but third generation. My grandfather was not born in Italy, but lived there for 2 years (not sure on what type of visa...pretty sure he didn't have a dual citizenship) but his parents were born in Italy (both I believe). Does this change things? I guess I no longer have the ability of obtaining any kind of duel citizenship, being so far removed. I hope not.

flanneruk, unfortunately I am 29 years of age (a little late in getting a masters). I'm sure I would have difficulty in getting this Hsmp visa.

Anyone know of any other ways of obtaining Italian citizenship, and therefore EU citizenship? (any immigration lawyers or anybody out there that knows the laws)?

Thanks all for your quick and thorough advice!!!
Patricia

StCirq

Patricia: I think the most efficient thing to do is call the Italian embassy. It's unlikely that you are eligible, because being second-generation is probably key and the Italian government is probably not these days looking to add to its citizenship rosters, but the laws governing these things do change from time to time.

I have dual citizenship, through Ireland, and they changed the laws a couple of years ago to make them much more stringent - so don't waste time waiting for an immigration lawyer to happen upon your post here - call the embassy!

Good luck!

PatriciaV2

Thanks everyone for helping so far. I found something that says that "Italian citizenship is graned by birth through the paternal line (with no limit on number of generations)" (www.italiaamerica.org/id72.htm) ..Am hoping this might allow me the right to a dual citizenship. Not completely sure as haven't read the fine print.

Wondering then, if US recognizes dual citizenship with Italy? (and I wouldn't lose my citizenship with US would I)?

Thanks!
Patricia

cmt

Some people I used to know were all wrapped up in getting Italian citizenship a few years ago, and, being a curious person, I couldn't help learning some of the details. I think I learned that I would've been eligible, because all I needed was a grandparent who was Italian born (or an Italian citizen?) and who had not given up Italian citizenship. Since I had four Italian-born grandparents, two of whom did not become US citizens because they lived here only briefly before moving back to Sicily, I assume I could've eventually obtained Italian citizenship had I chosen to pursue it. I just didn't see any reason to, however. It wouldn't seem quite right or respectful for me to get citizenship for frivolous or opportunistic reasons when my life is here in the US and I have no personal stake in the politics and economy of Italy. I can just imagine my grandparents thinking it would be a crazy thing to do. That doesn't mean someone else shouldn't do it, of course. Though I didn't pay close attention, since I really didn't want to apply for Italian citizenship, I'm pretty sure that having a great-grandparent (or several) born in Italy would NOT be sufficient to qualify someone for Italian citizenship.

P.S. I think you're a "third-generation American," not a "third-generation Italian."

P.P.S. I don't think 29 is old to be starting graduate school. As you get to know more and more people who are older than you, you'll be amazed how many people went to grad school in their 30s, 40s, 50s, and sometimes even 60s and beyond. Your little 7- or 8- or 9-year delay in going for your next degree will seem like just a brief moment compared to the years and decades that have passed before some people returned to school for advanced degrees.

PatriciaV2

cmt,
I just read this on the icgs website:
"there are two principle laws governing Italian citizenship jure sanguinis. The first is that citizenship can only be passed to a child while the parent is still an Italian citizen. That is, parents who became naturalized citizens of their new country BEFORE the birth of their children lost their Italian citizenship and COULD NOT pass citizenship on to them, while parents who became naturalized AFTER the birth of their children COULD pass citizenship on to them.

The second law is that citizenship could not be passed from a woman to her children prior to January 1, 1948. That is not to say that citizenship could not be passed TO females prior to 1948; it just could not be passed FROM a mother before January 1, 1948.

Citizenship jure sanguinis has no generational limit (provided the Italian ancestor was born after 1861) but may not, under any circumstances, SKIP generations.

Anyway, I still need to look into it. I feel that so far, I am not altogether restricted from the above limitations (depending on the naturalization factor and year)...this may be the same for you , I'm not sure? My motivations, I hope are not opportunistic, I only feel an extreme connection with Italy, my family, and other countries of Europe, but would certainly not want to deny my origins and my American citizenship.

I would like to perhaps look at options for the ability to work in the Eu community and if this is one possible way of furthering that dream, then I consider it a promising lead worthy of pursuit. (It would not however be my only reason)

Thanks again to everyone!
Any other advice would be welcomed greatly!
Patricia

cmt

Based on that, all four of my grandparents would have been a potential source of citizenship rights to me (but I still don't want it), and you might qualify also.

hanl

Have a look at www.myitaliancitizenship.com. You can find out straight away whether you qualify, and what documents you need to provide if you do.

Cicerone

A couple of answers to your questions:

1. The US permits dual citizenship, but does not encourage it. Please see the excerpt below from the US State Department regarding dual citizenship. Go to http://travel.state.gov/dualnationality.htmlt for the full text.

"The concept of dual nationality means that a person is a citizen of two countries at the same time. Each country has its own citizenship laws based on its own policy. Persons may have dual nationality by automatic operation of different laws rather than by choice. For example, a child born in a foreign country to U.S. citizen parents may be both a U.S. citizen and a citizen of the country of birth. U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship. Intent can be shown by the person's statements or conduct. The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Claims of other countries on dual national U.S. citizens may conflict with U.S. law, and dual nationality may limit U.S. Government efforts to assist citizens abroad."

2. For info on whether you qualify for Italian citizenship, take a look at the website for the Italian Embassy in the US at http://www.italyemb.org/. I find this site hard to use, but you may have more luck.

3. A US citizen working outside the US must still pay US federal income tax each year on income no matter where earned. You will get an exclusion for about the first US$70,000 in income and some credits for foreign income tax you pay, but you may still have a hefty amount due to Uncle Sam, and this is in addition to the very high personal tax rates in the UK, which are between 40 -60% depending on your income. You will need to understand the various income tax rates before a move. You would probably also want to make sure that you continue to contribute to US Social Security in order to earn your 10 years minimum. At this time, Italy does not tax income of non-residents, but that is not to say this will always be the case. (Although this seems very unlikely, as Italy has enough trouble getting its residents to pay income tax. . .) If that happens, you may end up paying income tax in the US, Italy and the UK.

4. An EU passport may give you the right to live and work in the UK, but you still have to find a job. This may be quite challenging. For information on teaching in the UK, go to http://www.britishcouncil-usa.org/le...shtml#Teaching. There is a website called Overseas Digest (overseasdigest.com) which has a section on teaching overseas. www.overseasdigest.com/odsamples/ambrose.html The site has lots of information, links and contacts about teaching and living overseas.

There are many websites that are helpful for tips on expat life. Try the following titles for searches:

American International Schools - Spain
www.expatexchange.com
www.expat-essentials.com
www.expatforum.com
www.expatnetwork.com
www.escapeartist.com/expatriate1/expatriate1.htm
www.outpostexpat.nl
ebusinessnomads

5. For information on tourist and work visas for the UK, take a look at the website of the UK Embassy in the US at http://www.britainusa.com/embassy. Also take a look at the website for the US Embassy in London at Take a look at www.usembassy.org.uk

PatriciaV2

Thanks everyone! cmt, I am going to look into it anyway.
Hanl, that is a great coincidence, because I believe that is the site that I quoted from.
cicerone, to make matters even more complicated (for getting a job), I would be a freelance music teacher, as I don't have a proper degree to teach at university level. I don't know how easy it would be to obtain piano students in Europe?

Thanks everyone!
Patricia

PatriciaV2

cicerone,
do you know if I was to obtain dual nationality and therefore could work in Italy or the UK would I still have to obtain a work visa?

Thanks!
P

Kate

Patricia, I'm afraid that unless you have an Italian born (and passport carrying) parent, then Italian citizenship is out. If you had an italian passport, then you could work freely in the UK.

PatriciaV2

Kate,

Can you say why you believe this? This does not match what I've been reading from myitaliancitizenship.com Do you know from previous experience ? I would really like to know.

Thanks much!
Patricia

GoTravel

"Citizenship jure sanguinis has no generational limit (provided the Italian ancestor was born after 1861) but may not, under any circumstances, SKIP generations"

Patricia, wouldn't this mean that you are ineligible for Italian citizenship? If your great grandfather was an Italian citizen and your grandfather and father were not, the citizenship would have skipped two generations.

PatriciaV2

I don't believe so, unless I'm reading the clause incorrectly.

Apparently Italy recognizes citizenship via bloodline, and if my great grandfather was still considered an Italian citizen when my grandfather was born, technically, I believe this would be passed onto my father along with my father's American citizenship (by birth right). It all depends on the date my great grandfather was naturalized (if he was naturalized --became full fledged American citizen-- before my grandfather was born, then there is no bloodline....however, if granddad was born before the naturalization process, then my granddad would qualify for citizenship of Italy by blood right). And I'm assuming, my dad would also be eligible by blood right?????

If I am wrong, please someone correct me, but this how I understood it.

Thanks!
PAtricia

PatriciaV2

I don't mean to draw this discussion out. I really appreciate the time everyone has taken to read this post and to put in their 2 cents! Thanks! One final question, does anyone know how easy it is to teach music privately or be self-employed as a teacher in the UK?

Thanks to all and warm regards!
Patricia