Milan Next Week: Some Questions
Jan 21st, 2016, 08:43 AM
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Milan Next Week: Some Questions
I'm going to Milan for 8 days (1/29-2/7) and, contrary to what conventional wisdom seems to be (!), in my research I've found plenty to do to fill up 5 days (museums, street markets, shopping and wandering). But I have a few questions that I'm sure Fodorites can help with!
1) If a buy a weekly travel card (for about 11 euros), does that include buses & trams in addition to the metro? Couldn't find a specific reference so want to check since I'll be taking both.
2) I remember being very flustered in Rome by the process in bakeries/cafes to order & pay for items (I don't speak Italian). I'm planning on going to Princi, in addition to other similar spots, and have read that I have to pay first, then go to the counter to get my items. In other countries, I wait in line at the bakery case, point to what I want and then pay the lady which works fine. I really want to enjoy some of Milan's pasticceria but I to be a clueless tourist. Any tips?
3) I'm planning on 2 or 3 day trips via train that are within 1 hour of Milan and identified Brescia, Bergamo or Pavia. I like to wander around old areas, go into a church or two, have lunch and see any famous sites. In reading about these 3 towns, they all sound very similar but there are often gems that don't make it into guide books or travel sites, so am looking for any opinions or suggestions. (Will do Bologna on a different trip since I'd want to spend more time there and in Ravenna.) Parma?
I appreciate any input - thanks!
1) If a buy a weekly travel card (for about 11 euros), does that include buses & trams in addition to the metro? Couldn't find a specific reference so want to check since I'll be taking both.
2) I remember being very flustered in Rome by the process in bakeries/cafes to order & pay for items (I don't speak Italian). I'm planning on going to Princi, in addition to other similar spots, and have read that I have to pay first, then go to the counter to get my items. In other countries, I wait in line at the bakery case, point to what I want and then pay the lady which works fine. I really want to enjoy some of Milan's pasticceria but I to be a clueless tourist. Any tips?
3) I'm planning on 2 or 3 day trips via train that are within 1 hour of Milan and identified Brescia, Bergamo or Pavia. I like to wander around old areas, go into a church or two, have lunch and see any famous sites. In reading about these 3 towns, they all sound very similar but there are often gems that don't make it into guide books or travel sites, so am looking for any opinions or suggestions. (Will do Bologna on a different trip since I'd want to spend more time there and in Ravenna.) Parma?
I appreciate any input - thanks!
Jan 21st, 2016, 09:10 AM
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The system you have described in the cafes is very common throughout Italy and you will just have to learn to deal with it. The system used commonly in other countries just does not apply. If you don't understand what you have to pay you might ask them to write it down (or memorize numbers in Italian).
Jan 21st, 2016, 10:21 AM
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It is my understanding that Italians use the system for hygenic reasons -- paying the cashier and then taking your receipt to the counter to get your food in order to keep the person handling germy money and handling food separate.
Jan 21st, 2016, 11:57 AM
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I'm sure Ellenem's explanation has merit, but it's a system that's mostly seen only in very busy bars or pasticcerie, so it can't be the whole reason. In some establishments, I suspect that the proprietor doesn't trust any of his employees to use the cash register.
In many bars, even bars with more than one employee, one person handles both money and food. Food isn't touched directly by the hands, though. Either a utensil (such as tongs), or a paper napkin is used.
In many bars in our rural area, the clients take their own pastry from a case, and pay (honor system) after they've finished their pastry and cappuccino.
In many bars, even bars with more than one employee, one person handles both money and food. Food isn't touched directly by the hands, though. Either a utensil (such as tongs), or a paper napkin is used.
In many bars in our rural area, the clients take their own pastry from a case, and pay (honor system) after they've finished their pastry and cappuccino.
Jan 21st, 2016, 02:11 PM
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Regarding your other question, the transport pass is good for metro, buses, and trams.
I was a bit disappointed in Pavia; maybe I didn't give it enough time. The Certosa of Pavia, which is a bit out of town, but reachable by bus from central Pavia, is certainly a gem.
I haven't been to Bergamo, but I'm told (especially by a friend of ours who was born there) that the upper town is a real charmer.
I was a bit disappointed in Pavia; maybe I didn't give it enough time. The Certosa of Pavia, which is a bit out of town, but reachable by bus from central Pavia, is certainly a gem.
I haven't been to Bergamo, but I'm told (especially by a friend of ours who was born there) that the upper town is a real charmer.
Jan 21st, 2016, 11:52 PM
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If you are interested in museums, you can spend a lot of time in Milan, a full day alone in the Leonaro da Vinci Science and Techniques Museum.
The Certosa di Pavia is in the middle of the itinerary Milan - Pavia. Train and bus stops.
Pavia and Brescia are both worth a visit. So are Cremona and Mantova. There is more to see at Bergamo, Verona and Parma, however.
If you are interested in old churches and stunning landscapes, you may consider the Lugano area too.
For day trips by train, it's best to sleep close to Centrale railway station. My favourite is Hotel Michelangelo.
The Certosa di Pavia is in the middle of the itinerary Milan - Pavia. Train and bus stops.
Pavia and Brescia are both worth a visit. So are Cremona and Mantova. There is more to see at Bergamo, Verona and Parma, however.
If you are interested in old churches and stunning landscapes, you may consider the Lugano area too.
For day trips by train, it's best to sleep close to Centrale railway station. My favourite is Hotel Michelangelo.
Jan 22nd, 2016, 03:45 AM
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Bvlenci, That was the explanation given to me by a native Italian who has never lived anywhere else. He would be very likely to mention such suspicions you mentioned. I agree that paying a cashier is prevalent at larger cafes and shops, where there are staff and space for a dedicated cashier counter. When in doubt, watch a local.
Jan 22nd, 2016, 04:28 AM
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Good advice to see what the locals do in the bakeries! (and look for a separate cashier counter - that's a great tip.) My plan is to try not to go at busy times and rely on smiling and a lot of grazie's. Re: day trips, I'm thinking Bergamo for sure. Parma is a bit further than my 60 min train trip limit, but will keep that in mind, along w/Brescia. Thanks for the input.
I've rented an apt near the S. Ambrogio, across from the Museum of Science & Technology since the majority of my sightseeing - other than the 3 day trips - will be in the center or easily reachable by metro.
I've rented an apt near the S. Ambrogio, across from the Museum of Science & Technology since the majority of my sightseeing - other than the 3 day trips - will be in the center or easily reachable by metro.
Jan 22nd, 2016, 01:14 PM
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Como might be an interesting day trip. Walk from the train station to the Lake. It's pretty!
For high end gastronomy, try Peck. It's a short walk from the Duomo and the windows alone are worth the trip.
For high end gastronomy, try Peck. It's a short walk from the Duomo and the windows alone are worth the trip.
Jan 23rd, 2016, 06:08 AM
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I agree with the town of Como as a nice daytrip. I've overnighted there a couple of times. Direct trains from Milano Centale are :36. If the boats are running, you can spend a few hours going up and down the lake, as well.
Jan 23rd, 2016, 07:24 AM
#12
>>>1) If a buy a weekly travel card (for about 11 euros), does that include buses & trams in addition to the metro?<<<<
There are several travel cards. Prices/coverage area vary by card.
http://www.atm.it/en/ViaggiaConNoi/A...Tipologie.aspx
There is also the Milanocard which gives some transport (up to 72 hours) and entrances.
http://www.milanocard.it/option-milanocard
There are several travel cards. Prices/coverage area vary by card.
http://www.atm.it/en/ViaggiaConNoi/A...Tipologie.aspx
There is also the Milanocard which gives some transport (up to 72 hours) and entrances.
http://www.milanocard.it/option-milanocard
Jan 23rd, 2016, 07:49 AM
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I've lived in Italy for 18 years, which certainly isn't my whole life, although I don't see the relevance of that. My observation is based on two facts.
First, if hygiene were really a concern, I would expect the separate cashier phenomenon to be considerably more widespread than it is; Italians tend to be very concerned about germs. Instead, in plenty of places where there are multiple employees, they all handle both food and money.
Second, I've seen a fair number of establishments where the cashier is an eagle-eyed proprietor or spouse.
First, if hygiene were really a concern, I would expect the separate cashier phenomenon to be considerably more widespread than it is; Italians tend to be very concerned about germs. Instead, in plenty of places where there are multiple employees, they all handle both food and money.
Second, I've seen a fair number of establishments where the cashier is an eagle-eyed proprietor or spouse.
Jan 23rd, 2016, 04:03 PM
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Hi vickiebypass,
Have you ever been to Starbucks or McDonalds? The system is not very different. You first tell the cashier what you want and pay for it. But then you take the receipt to the person serving what you bought and they will give it to you.
It is good to learn the names of coffee so you get want you want, and of course study the glass display cases where the pastries are kept before you head to the cashier. But usually the cashier will dash over to see what you point at and don't be afraid to ask other customers around you for help, in English. Many people in Milan speak English and are quite proud they do. They will help you.
I hope you are going to bakeries and pastry shops other than Princi, which is is a chain. I"m not so fond of it, and I sometimes think that part of its popularity in Milan is that it does fluffy American-style breads and pastries and it's more fun to try the local Italian stuff. Do some googling for "best pastry shops caffes in Milan" if you haven't already to learn the other possibilities.
Also, if you like hot chocolate in winter, Milan favors a rich dark version, cut with cream, and has some wonderful places to drink it. Again, a google search will turn up plenty of pointers.
Have you ever been to Starbucks or McDonalds? The system is not very different. You first tell the cashier what you want and pay for it. But then you take the receipt to the person serving what you bought and they will give it to you.
It is good to learn the names of coffee so you get want you want, and of course study the glass display cases where the pastries are kept before you head to the cashier. But usually the cashier will dash over to see what you point at and don't be afraid to ask other customers around you for help, in English. Many people in Milan speak English and are quite proud they do. They will help you.
I hope you are going to bakeries and pastry shops other than Princi, which is is a chain. I"m not so fond of it, and I sometimes think that part of its popularity in Milan is that it does fluffy American-style breads and pastries and it's more fun to try the local Italian stuff. Do some googling for "best pastry shops caffes in Milan" if you haven't already to learn the other possibilities.
Also, if you like hot chocolate in winter, Milan favors a rich dark version, cut with cream, and has some wonderful places to drink it. Again, a google search will turn up plenty of pointers.
Jan 23rd, 2016, 04:15 PM
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Here's another idea for ordering a pastry in a caffe: Will you have a smart phone with you? Snap a picture of the pastry you want and show it to the cashier.
But you still need to learn how to order coffee the way you like it.
But you still need to learn how to order coffee the way you like it.
Jan 23rd, 2016, 10:35 PM
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Bergamo - at least its Alta Citta - is probably THE terrific, traditional small Italian town easily and quickly accessible from central Milan. With a couple of trains an hour, most taking 50 mins or less, and rarely costing more than €6 each way, it
We recently visited it on a bright early autumn Sunday, exactly 40 years (well,2,080 Sundays) after our previous visit. Its historic buildings were in spectacularly better condition, infinitely better captioned and arranged and the entire centre infinitely better protected from rapacious development. Objectively it was a credit to Italian conservation skills, the effectiveness of its conservation laws - and to the involuntary generosity of British, German and Dutch taxpayers whose money has been diverted, through the EU, to providing Italy with a jewel. I'm still waiting for a eurocent of Italian taxpayer subsidy to any of my local medieval churches, and I suspect that wait to last way beyond my allotted span on this earth - but that's hardly relevant to most visitors.
The biggest change, though, was in the number of other visitors. The Alta Citta was rammed: at least as crowded as any tourist honeypot in Venice or Rome, only 99.9% of these other visitors were Italian, and most had the cadences of Italian as spoken in Lombardy. 40 years earlier, we'd had the Duomo and its neighbouring Basilica entirely to ourselves, though their maintenance and illumination were then as dire as the poorest bits of the Mezzogiorno: now the splendidly housekept churches were almost as inaccessible because of the hundreds of other art-gawpers. Getting food or drink (notwithstanding the hugely increased range of both) was close to impossible because of the queues
I doubt it can possibly be like this on weekdays, and it WAS an exceptionally fine Sunday. But Lombardy is now surprisingly short of pretty, properly-conserved, small towns. The comments above about Pavia hit the problem right on the head: most of Lombardy's small-town heritage was ravaged by Italy's post-WW2 economic miracle. Bergamo's Alta Citta is a shining exception in the region, and it looks as if it's turning into the region's Sunday Mecca.
Do visit the town: but try timing the visit to coincide with other people's working hours.
We recently visited it on a bright early autumn Sunday, exactly 40 years (well,2,080 Sundays) after our previous visit. Its historic buildings were in spectacularly better condition, infinitely better captioned and arranged and the entire centre infinitely better protected from rapacious development. Objectively it was a credit to Italian conservation skills, the effectiveness of its conservation laws - and to the involuntary generosity of British, German and Dutch taxpayers whose money has been diverted, through the EU, to providing Italy with a jewel. I'm still waiting for a eurocent of Italian taxpayer subsidy to any of my local medieval churches, and I suspect that wait to last way beyond my allotted span on this earth - but that's hardly relevant to most visitors.
The biggest change, though, was in the number of other visitors. The Alta Citta was rammed: at least as crowded as any tourist honeypot in Venice or Rome, only 99.9% of these other visitors were Italian, and most had the cadences of Italian as spoken in Lombardy. 40 years earlier, we'd had the Duomo and its neighbouring Basilica entirely to ourselves, though their maintenance and illumination were then as dire as the poorest bits of the Mezzogiorno: now the splendidly housekept churches were almost as inaccessible because of the hundreds of other art-gawpers. Getting food or drink (notwithstanding the hugely increased range of both) was close to impossible because of the queues
I doubt it can possibly be like this on weekdays, and it WAS an exceptionally fine Sunday. But Lombardy is now surprisingly short of pretty, properly-conserved, small towns. The comments above about Pavia hit the problem right on the head: most of Lombardy's small-town heritage was ravaged by Italy's post-WW2 economic miracle. Bergamo's Alta Citta is a shining exception in the region, and it looks as if it's turning into the region's Sunday Mecca.
Do visit the town: but try timing the visit to coincide with other people's working hours.
Jan 24th, 2016, 03:31 AM
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>>It is my understanding that Italians use the system for hygenic reasons -- paying the cashier and then taking your receipt to the counter to get your food in order to keep the person handling germy money and handling food separate.<<
Doesn't paying afterwards accomplish the same thing? It seems to be more a matter of custom than hygiene.
Doesn't paying afterwards accomplish the same thing? It seems to be more a matter of custom than hygiene.
Jan 25th, 2016, 05:32 AM
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Great tips from everyone - thanks! Flanneruk: i was already leaning toward Bergamo, but you sold me. I'll be there on a weekday so shouldn't be too crowded....plus, of course it's January so not glorious like September! Will re-think Parma too.
Jangita & Holly - the reason I haven't been thinking about Como is that I've read the towns are basically shut down in the winter, and not sure if the boats run either (haven't been able to get much info on this...but have visions of going to an American lake town in January which is dismal.)
Sandra - good idea to take a photo of the pastry I want (although I may want 2 or 3). I don't drink coffee, so don't have to worry about that. Typically I buy pastries and baguette sandwiches for take away. I'll research other bakeries and check back here for everyone's input.
Keep 'em coming!
Jangita & Holly - the reason I haven't been thinking about Como is that I've read the towns are basically shut down in the winter, and not sure if the boats run either (haven't been able to get much info on this...but have visions of going to an American lake town in January which is dismal.)
Sandra - good idea to take a photo of the pastry I want (although I may want 2 or 3). I don't drink coffee, so don't have to worry about that. Typically I buy pastries and baguette sandwiches for take away. I'll research other bakeries and check back here for everyone's input.
Keep 'em coming!
Jan 25th, 2016, 08:44 AM
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vickiebypass,
Sandwiches in Milan are known as panini (with "un panino" being a single sandwich and panini being the plural form, more than one). The bread used is various, and only rarely resembles a French baguette. A very popular sandwich in Milan is "un panzerotto", which is more like a fried turnover, stuffed with cheese or meat and served hot. It is actually a dish from southern Italy, brought in by migrant workers, that took off in the fast-paced eat&run culture of Milan.
http://www.italylogue.com/food-drink...ing-lunch.html
It is typical in pastry shops if you are only buying pastries to find someone behind the display cases who will bag what you point at, and then give your bag to the cashier so that the cashier knows what to charge you, or to give you the bag to take to the cashier. It is only in bars serving coffee where you give both your pastry order and your coffee order to the cashier, so if you are not drinking coffee, I don't think you will encounter much difficulty getting what you want.
If you are planning on doing a lot of pastry shopping, would help if you learned a few of the Italian terms that describe what you are pointing at -- like the Italian for round, square or triangle, and chocolate or fruit or lemon, or the names of colors -- pink, white, yellow...
It is a fairly impossible task to learn the names of local pastries in Italy. They vary from town to town, as they often do in the US, and there a lots of unique local specialties that visitors wouldn't be expected to know. Milan gets a lot of non-local foot traffic, so lots of people will be pointing, not knowing the names of things, just like you.
Milan is not so much a tourist city as it is a business city, and the quietest time of the year is August, not January or February. Although few places will be mobbed, you can expect brisk business in the most popular caffes and pastry shops.
Sandwiches in Milan are known as panini (with "un panino" being a single sandwich and panini being the plural form, more than one). The bread used is various, and only rarely resembles a French baguette. A very popular sandwich in Milan is "un panzerotto", which is more like a fried turnover, stuffed with cheese or meat and served hot. It is actually a dish from southern Italy, brought in by migrant workers, that took off in the fast-paced eat&run culture of Milan.
http://www.italylogue.com/food-drink...ing-lunch.html
It is typical in pastry shops if you are only buying pastries to find someone behind the display cases who will bag what you point at, and then give your bag to the cashier so that the cashier knows what to charge you, or to give you the bag to take to the cashier. It is only in bars serving coffee where you give both your pastry order and your coffee order to the cashier, so if you are not drinking coffee, I don't think you will encounter much difficulty getting what you want.
If you are planning on doing a lot of pastry shopping, would help if you learned a few of the Italian terms that describe what you are pointing at -- like the Italian for round, square or triangle, and chocolate or fruit or lemon, or the names of colors -- pink, white, yellow...
It is a fairly impossible task to learn the names of local pastries in Italy. They vary from town to town, as they often do in the US, and there a lots of unique local specialties that visitors wouldn't be expected to know. Milan gets a lot of non-local foot traffic, so lots of people will be pointing, not knowing the names of things, just like you.
Milan is not so much a tourist city as it is a business city, and the quietest time of the year is August, not January or February. Although few places will be mobbed, you can expect brisk business in the most popular caffes and pastry shops.
Jan 25th, 2016, 02:00 PM
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Found lots of pastry shops to investigate (Marchesi, Gattullo, Taveggia, KNAM, Freni and Cucchi). Plus, those that I just walk past...in fact, I walk as much as possible to burn off the calories I know I'll be eating. But, IMO life is too short not to enjoy fine quality items. I do know some basic food-related words that should convey what I want. Thanks for the suggestions!
