Trains in Spain - www.renfe.com and read (at least) -
http://tiny.cc/d728fw to understand the website (if necessary) and the probability of discounted tickets. And as you are from outside Europe, you may need this further hugely comprehensive guide if you have troubles - http://tiny.cc/4b38fw

Seville to La Linea bus - http://www.tgcomes.es/horarios_33_english.htm and walk across the border into Gibraltar.

Seville deserves more time perhaps, if you could shave a day off somewhere else - but it's your trip and not mine. Plenty of time for fundamental and in depth research before November.

Gibraltar seems an odd choice of destination when going to Morocco - plenty of ferry options from Sapin itself

The OP says 'I know I want to see Barcelona, Gibraltar' - so presumably Gibraltar not solely for a ferry.

This is more for the Africa Forum, but is there any special reason for going to Casablanca? Fez, maybe Meknes and Essaouira, definitely Marrakech, and hopefully a trip into the desert. But not Casa.

10 days isn't much but for a basic trip here goes - ferry to Tangier and taxi immediately to the train station. Train to Fez. 2 days, maybe 3 with a day trip to Meknes. Rent car and long drive into the desert. 2 days including an overnight in a tent. Drive to Todra Gorge. Overnight. Long drive to Marrakech. Spend the rest of your time there.

I know, I know - Africa Forum.

Also, I think it's much easier to take the ferry to Tangier from Tarifa or Algeciras than from Gibraltar, meaning that ferries from Spain are very plentiful and those from Gibraltar are not. All you need is one, though.

From Madrid I'd recommend a side trip to Aranjuez, only a short train ride. Lovely old place with summer palace of the Spanish Royal Family & miles of gardens by the river.
Also enjoyed AVILA.

Spent less than four hours on Gibraltar as part of a tour back in the day. Seemed like more than enough time.

Wouldn't go to Tangier if there's another arrival point in Morocco. Tangier is a port city of little historical or touristic significance.

WOULD go to Cordoba from Seville and drop a day or two from Madrid.

Have you booked the flights? If not, return to Canada from Barcelona through London, not Madrid. A total of 10 days in Madrid is excessive (much more to see in Barcelona).

"Gibraltar (1 day) - ferry across the Strait to Tangier"
It seems as though you are intending to take a ferry from Gibraltar to Tangier. If so, you will need to be in Gibraltar on Friday evening for the ferry because there is only one ferry a week.

Thanks for all the suggestions so far.

AlanRow/Wombatt/TonyBishop:
La mia colpa: my partner wants to take the ferry across the Straits of Gibraltar, and so I wrote down Gibraltar. But it looks like there is only 1 ferry from Gibraltar, and most ferries leave from Tarifa or Algeciras.

Given the ferry ride is only about 1/2 hour: is it really worth it to take the train from Madrid to Tarifa or Algeciras, land in Tangier (which I heard is not very pleasant), and then find my way to Marakesh or Casablanca?
Maybe I should investigate flying from Spain to Marakesh directly rather than "wasting" 1-2 days on train/bus/ferry.

Bellini:
The reason I wanted to stay in Madrid at least a week is that, I heard even though Madrid itself is not as interesting as Barcelona, there are places outside Madrid for day trips: Toledo being one, and now I would look at Aranjuez.

BigRuss
We will be taking Air Canada/BA from Canada - London - Madrid. The tickets were bought a few months ago. I don't think there is BA flight from Barcelona to London? Anyways it is too late to change. Yes ideally I would like to fly back to London from Barcelona, rather than going back to Madrid, If we fly back through Madrid I would stay there 1-2 days, because going from Barcelona to London to Canada in one stretch is too easy to miss a connection.

WomBatt/BigRuss
I want to go from Madrid to Morocco stopping at either Seville or Granada. It's a toss-up but leaning towards Seville, with the biggest Cathedral in the world (?), and also maybe easier to fly from Seville, rather than Granada, to Morocco. I wonder if we stay for 3 days in Seville, can we make a day trip to see Cordoba (I know that's going back towards Madrid).

Robertino:
I know we should discuss in AfricaForun, but many people go to Spain and also go to Morocco.
The only reason for Casablanca is the movie which I saw many years ago, and to tell people that "yes I've been there". Are you saying that it isn't worth a trip? how about staying in Marakesh as a base and make a day trip or an overnight trip to Casablanca?

Fez, Meknes and Essaouira: I don't know these places at all, but will do some research. I wasn't planning to drive in Morocco. I had no problem driving in Italy (the Amalfa Coast) and Turkey (within Izmir, and from to Ephesus to Parmakkule). But I am afraid that English signs are not prevalent in Morocco and fewer people speak English? What is your experience of driving in Morocco?

If Kez is worth a few days, maybe we can join local tours while in Kez to explore the surrounding area. How long is the train from Marakesh to Kez? but it means that we have to go back to Marakesh to fly back to Spain.

No sure about the desert: I heard those camels are pretty nasty animals: they spit at you if they don't like you. That's what my brother told me.

I'd suggest spending more time in Sevilla. With 4 days you'd have enough time for a daytrip to Cordoba. I'd also try to find a couple of additional days to visit Granada. It seems a shame to not visit Granada for a first trip to Andalucia. You could easily spend the entire month in Spain considering you're trying to visit 3 distinct geographies. You may consider cutting Barcelona to give you the time needed for Sevilla and Granada. It makes better sense logistically and you could save Barcelona for another trip.

Forget Casablanca. Since this is a first trip and you want to see Andalucia, go into Madrid and then on to Granada, Cordoba, and Seville. From there head to Algeciras and take the ferry to Tangiers. Hop the train and go to Fez. In order to get to Marrakech, the train goes west to Rabat and Casa before turning southeast to Marrakech. From there fly to Barcelona and then on to Madrid. It is tempting to take a flight from Madrid to Morocco, but you'd have to take Ryanair if you don't want to spend a fortune, and then you'd miss seeing Andalucia ! Forget Gibraltar, too. The ferry from Algeciras takes 2 hrs and costs 20€. The one from Tarifa takes 35 min and costs 35€.
We will be doing a trip to Spain/Morocco in Oct-Nov, but we're old hands having lived in both places for many years. We plan to take the train from Madrid to Algeciras, then pick up a rental car in Tangiers after visiting an old friend who lives there, and on to Asliah, Larache, Kenitra, and Rabat. Then back to Tangiers and Algeciras where we'll get another rental car to continue on to our house in Spain. If my daughter and son-in-law are with us, because she was young when we lived there, from Rabat we'll continue on down the coast to Essaouira, over to Marrakech, up to Fez and Chaouen, drop the car in Tangiers, and out to Spain. We, too, are not interested in the desert.
Best for you to go to a library and get books on Spain and Morocco so you'll have a better idea of what you might want to see. You are lucky to have 4 wks for your trip, unlike many people on this board. Take advantage of your time and HAVE LOTS OF FUN !!!

<< I don't think there is BA flight from Barcelona to London? >>

Try again.

And Barcelona - London - Canada is no more onerous an itinerary than Madrid to Canada via London. You made your choice so stick with it and don't look back but for future reference, the start point and end point on the vacation does not need to be the same.

The hydrofoil from Algeciras to Tangier is 1 hour. Bring antiemetics if you have any motion sickness at all on any type of transport.

Granada has one attraction, Alhambra. Other than that . . . yawn. Cordoba has more to entice and it's 1/8 the size of Granada. Thus, the pick should be Seville (worth a couple of days and better access to Cordoba). Its cathedral is the third largest in the world; St. Peter's is the largest in Europe.

Madrid doesn't really have a surfeit of day trips. Toledo is the best, Segovia is only ok and really not worth going out of your way to see. Unfortunately there are no fast trains to Salamanca, which is worth a couple of nights. You can do day trips from Barcelona too (Girona, Montserrat, etc.) and there's more to see generally in Barcelona than in Madrid.

If you like modern art, go to articketbcn.com and buy the ticket.

I already bought travel books on Spain and Morocco. But all the places look so nice in the guidebook so it's difficult to decide where to go. Hence the posting here.

Here is my revised itinerary based on comments/suggestions:

Nov 3: late afternoon arrive in Madrid
Nov 3-9: 7 nights in Madrid, with 2 side trips (Toledo and Aranjuez)
Nov 10: travel - 3hr train to Granada
Nov 10-12: 3 nights in Granada
Nov 13: train - 3 hrs - to Seville
Nov 13-15: 3 nights in Seville (side trip to Cordoba)
Nov 16: fly from Seville to Marekash
Nov 16:- 18: 3 nights in Marekesh
Nov 19: 6-7 hrs drive? train? to Kez
Nov 19-21: Kez
Nov 22: 6-7 hrs train or car back to Marekesh
Nov 22: 1 night Marekesh
Nov 23: fly to Barcelona
Nov 23-27: 5 nights in Barcelona
Nov 28: to Madrid
Nov 28: 1 night in Madrid
Nov 29: Madrid - London - Canada

One thing not sure is the travel between Marekesh and Kez: it will take 6-7 hours either driving or train, and the same amount of time going back to Marekesh so that we can fly to Barcelona. It seems like a lot of effort to go to Kez..

Regarding the Spain portion I think this looks good. Personally I'd add a day to Sevilla and take it from Granada. While I do believe there is more to Granada than the Alhambra I think 2 nights is sufficient. While 3 nights in Sevilla with 1 day dedicated to a Cordoba daytrip is a bit rushed. For me I'd consider taking a couple of days from Madrid and perhaps adding Malaga or Cadiz. The weather may be nicer than Madrid and although not beach season it would be nice to see the coast. 7 nights in Madrid seems a little much even with a couple of daytrips - but it will allow you to rest up a bit. By the way, the train from Madrid to Granada is longer than 3 hours. It's closer to 5. Bus is also another alternative as takes the same amount of time and is more frequent. For Granada to Sevilla you can take the train or bus - either way this is 3 hours.

Thanks Cathy.

If the train from Madrid to Granada takes 5 hours, it will be afternoon or late afternoon when we arrive in Granada. So that means only 2 full days there (Nov 11 and 12). On Nov 13 we can leave early for Seville.

I can shave 1 day from Madrid, but if I do I am thinking of adding a day to Fez (I kept calling it Kez), because it takes so long to travel between Marekesh and Kez. It would be perfect if we can go from Marekesh to Fez, and fly from Fez directly to Barcelona but I couldn't find any flights. That means we'll have to spend a whole day on the road just getting back to Marekesh to fly to Barcelona.

Thanks for all the help. Now all I need is to fine tune the days: add one here or shave off one there. I should really go to the Africa Forum to discuss the Marekesh - Fez travel.

Thanks again everyone.

Hi John -

See you on the Africa Forum!

I agree with Cathy's advice on Andalucia. there is no need to go to Fez if you are going to Marrakesh. I would suggest Essouira though as the other place to go in Morroco.

I have just discovered that Iberia Air flies directly from Madrid to Tangier for ~40euros. In that case I can devise my itinerary - I think this is abetter itinerary (wihout taking a 7 hour trian from Marrakesh to Fez and back to Marrakesh):

Nov 3-8: 6 days in Madrid (side trip to Toledo and Aranjuez)
Nov 9: early flight to Tangier - hop onto 4-hour train to Kez. Arrive late afternon
Nov 9-12: 4 nights in Kez
Nov 13: 7 hr train to Marrakesh
Nov 13-16: 4 nights in Marrakesh
Nov 17: early flight to Barcelona
Nov 17-21: 5 nights in Barcelona
Nov 22: early flight to Seville
Nov 22-25: 4 nights in Seville
Nov 26: morning train 3hrs to Granada
Nov 26-27: 2 nights in Granada
Nov 28: 1 hr morning flight to Madrid
Nov 28: 1 night in Madrid
Nov 29: leave for London - then Canada

I have been to Aranjuez twice and each time less impressed! The palace and the river ride is not very well maintained!I would strongly recommend an early bus ride to Segovia and after a few hours take a short 10 minute bus ride to La Granja for lunch-the gardens and fountains are wonderful-now that's impressive!

"Nov 3-8: 6 days in Madrid (side trip to Toledo and Aranjuez)"
If one of those days includes the day you arrive, and that seems the case, you are not going to get 6 full days in Madrid. You will get 5 full days at the most. If your flight into Madrid involves the possibility of jet lag, you definitely will not get 6 full days, and maybe not even 5 full days.


For what it is worth, a few years ago I went to Madrid for 6 full days with a group of friends, fully intending to make two day trips out of the city. In the end, we were having such a great time exploring Madrid that we did not even make one of those trips. No regrets whatsoever.

Yes Tony you are right. The first day we will arrive in Madrid Nov 3 late afternoon, and then we will have 5 full days (Nov 4-8), and leave on the 9th morning. We don't have to make side trips to Toedo etc. if we feel that there are enough things to do in the city. To us Toledo, Aranjuez or Segovia are not "musts".

Looks good - alot of flights as you've covering a big geography. But if these are the cities you want to see the time in each place is adequate. The focus is on larger cities, at least in Spain. From Sevilla I'd definately do a daytrip to Cordoba. I'd probably try to take a later flight to Madrid from Granada to maximize your time in Granada as you will have already spent 6 nights in Madrid.

I will remember Cordoba. Thanks Cathy.

Depending on the number of flights from Seville to Madrid: I will usually fly out at least one flight before the last one. So that if that flight is cancelled I will not be stuck in a city.

"Nov 9-12: 4 nights in Kez
Nov 13: 7 hr train to Marrakesh"
I think you mean Fez, not Kez. Just bear in mind that inland Morocco gets very cold at night in November with temperatures getting close to freezing. So choose your accommodation carefully.

Damn. I hit the Reply button before I was ready to post.

Every place on your list is very touristy (Granada, Barcelona and Marrakech especially so) and that may get tiring after a couple of weeks.

If you want to take a break from the tourist trail, take a look at Ronda and the surrounding area.
http://www.turismoderonda.es/indexeng.htm

If that appeals to you, have a look at this website. Eva lives in a white village very close to Ronda.
www.rondamountains.com

I was in Fez once for a night. I couldn't wait to get back to Spain. That doesn't mean you won't enjoy it though.